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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Updated test file. Food, hammers, and cities are good. There are small commerce discrepancies, and I haven't edited the map to reflect the land or AI outside our borders.

    If loading a BUFFY file in game causes your copy of Civ to crash, as it does with mine, exit to the main menu and load from there.
     

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  2. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Ran a test to T73 until settle the 6th city, in the same time we are likely to complete CoL if we are free from attack.

    Spoiler :




    There are several issues need to be confirmed

    • Shall we complete CoL if safe? Researching Construction ourselves requires Masonry.
    • The location of 6th city?
    • The location of 7th city?

    In the same time, take time to think about which path we are going to adapt next, although we have not arrived the cross road yet.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13689034&postcount=512
     

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  3. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I wonder if we should bulb to Astronomy via Education? 3 Great Scientists would be needed: 1 for Education, 1 for Printing Press, 1 for Astronomy itself. Since this is less of a beeline, the GSs could come from Libraries rather than Caste System, and staying in Slavery lets us produce economic infrastructure and Catapults.

    CoLs is fine with me, since our research is a million miles ahead of the AI, and it is really hard to trade for this without Mansa. The free Missionary could be used as an explorer or to start spreading a religion.

    I'm not sure about the exact city spots, but the order for me would be: (1) Corn; (2/3) Horse; (2/3/4) northern Fish; (3/4) Whale/Fish. A hidden NE resource might change this.

    I'd like to settle the Horse after we have checked for food to the west of the mountains. If there is nothing there, we might consider sharing Sparta's Cow. We will likely need another Warrior for scouting.

    Northern Fish will need a WB to grow, so its timing depends on Worker availability (8 Worker turns for a WB and Granary) or whipping a WB in advance in the Corn site.

    Whale/Fish depends upon the movement of the Galley.

    In your test, you skip finishing the Farm 2N1W of Athens. Is this better than finishing this? At the very least, it will offer +1F on T67, +1H on T68, and the extra food on T67 lets us work an additional tile on T70 (24/28F, whipped to 24/24F, letting us regrow to size 3 on the turn the Settler completes).

    I don't think the Warrior 3W1N of Sparta needs to leave our culture.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Ugh.

    If reaching Fission/Industrialism is the "easiest" goal in mapmaker's mind, I don't want to know what #2 and #3 are.

    Taking over our continent makes sense, but we need to plan the economy also. GM trade missions would be heavily helpful. And capturing GLH if possible......

    FWIW, I'd try to set up a buying of the rest of the hints at a later date as I mentioned in post #10.
     
  5. BSPollux

    BSPollux Chieftain

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    Did I use the word "easy"?
     
  6. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    If we're going to fight some catapult wars, then CoL-> CS doesn't help us much.

    We could keep research at 0% CoL and then switch to Masonry -> Construction or Archery, depending on the situation. We might get Masonry in trade somewhat later, but even if we don't, it's not a big deal.
     
  7. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    I intend to send this warrior to scout the horse site.
     
  8. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    The problems are

    • we don't have any strategic resources now, especially Iron.
    • Most Cities are not ready to produce military units yet, only capital is ready.
     
  9. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    TBH, the tasks from Liz and Izzy is nothing compared with the task from Cathy. I have expected balanced tasks from three girls so that players need to think about how to compromise among them to achieve the best result. Liz's task is just a natural side product to complete Cathy's task.
     
  10. BSPollux

    BSPollux Chieftain

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    Do you think the other teams "expect" the same?
    And are you sure none of Cathy's are easier to achieve?
     
  11. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    The main question is do we want it or not. In the next 10 turns or so our cities could be ready for some cat whipping. We could start with those and follow up with metal units when we trade for IW. Most importantly, if that's the strategic direction that we want to take, CoL is of zero use for quite some time.
     
  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    If you take a careful look at my T73 screenshot, you will see that the 2 issues that I mentioned won't be solved in 10 turns. We are not ready to produce military units before T80~85. If unlucky and could not trade IW, the waiting time would be longer unless the team will agree to research IW as well.

    CoL is something that is difficult to trade and required to research CS (looks like most of us want to go this route).
     
  13. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    It's your design, so we can only guess and design the strategy to be as flexible as possible for different results. As you can see, if all the tasks do not require going deeply into the tech tree, our strategy will be at least 10 turns ahead of who think it's a beaker race from the beginning. Even it turns out to be a beaker race, we can still switch our direction with merely 1~2 loss in the final result.

    I have not said that I don't want to see Cathy's other tasks. OTOH, I said this;)

    The problem of doing that is the cost of learning more tasks is too costly and I don't think Cathy's other tasks would cost much less turns than tasks #1. I still have faith on your judgement of those tasks.;)
     
  14. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    I'm not saying we shouldn't research CoL eventually, but if we are to follow up with army whipping then it's not imediately useful. CS also isn't that strong on this map. CoL would have its use for trading, but we only really need IW right now and we could give Math to get it.

    Does it matter if we get Construction too soon? We could still research CoL after that. If we are not going for Caste, then there's no time pressure for CoL while there could be for Construction if we go the other way around.

    Basically, I think we have to choose our strategy at this point. If we are continuing with the original plan towards Astronomy, then CoL is fine. If on the other hand we plan to go towards Civil Service, we should also revisit the GLH issue. There's no guarantee we'd get some reachable AI to build it for us which increases the value of self buulding it. It would also go along nicely with additional cities on our own continent that we could capture with catapults.
     
  15. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Fish/Whale means waiting for the Galley to reach the south. Looking at the screenshots, that will be ~T80. I think we can produce 3 more Settlers in that time, although I haven't tested that far.

    I think Corn as #1 is indisputable. Northern Fish vs. Horse depends upon Worker availability, so at the moment Northern Fish > Horse.

    Whether Horse > Whale/Fish (or vice versa) depends upon whether Horse has another source of food, and how quickly the Thebes Worker can reach this.

    None of these cities, apart from Corn, are incredibly strong or essential sites. So IW or hidden resources in the east will affect things.

    ----

    @Yamps

    CoLs is needed for an Engineering/Astronomy bulb path, or a CS/Education/Astronomy research/bulb path. Without Mansa, we will not be able to trade for this tech, as one AI will research it, found the religion, and all the others will ignore it for a very long time.

    If we won't build any Catapults in the next 15 turns, there is no reason to hurry to Construction. To declare war against Willem, we will need to gift 2–4 Workers, and at the moment we have 2 in total who cannot be spared (e.g. aside from chops and resource tiles, we have zero roads). CoLs is not needed soon, but at least offers the benefit of a free Missionary.

    The only other tech that appeals to me right now is Metal Casting, for Forges.

    edit: if we want to reconsider the GLH, then we can do so when City #6 or #7 is produced, unless we want to perform an about face and build it in our capital.
     
  16. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    CoL gives religion, if we end with requiring 1 GPriest, then an extra religion helps. Moreover, don't underestimate CS, even with our commerce poor capital, it could easily offers ~20 :commerce: at the time we get it. It's not too late to lay down some cottages now. Switch to both Monarchy and bureaucracy saves 1 turn of anarchy as well.

    I plan to play 3 turns to reveal the last 2 tiles first.

    Still, I don't feel the north Fish is better than the Fish/whale site. The time difference is 3 turns, north @T78 and South @T81, but the South has better growth due to the instance access to Fish and 2 Whales. It's hard to spare the 2 workers from Corn site in short time since it will grow quite fast with the chopped granary.
     
  17. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @BSPollux

    Spoiler :
    The announcement thread reads:

    Does this still hold?

    I take it to mean the following:

    The #1 task is the earliest that can be fulfilled in a normal game of Civ IV, although it will not always be the easiest. Accordingly, Isabella #1 can be fulfilled relatively early (build Stonehenge/TO and research Writing + Music), but is not easy, because all teams need to win the game ASAP and using Great People is an integral part of that endeavor.

    Since an Immortal game can be won with Classical and Medieval units, but Catherine #1 requires Physics, Combustion, and Industrialism (2 Industrial techs, 1 Modern), this is already very late.

    If Catherine #1 is a "late," but "easy" objective (once we are there), then Catherine #2 and Catherine #3 should involve going (roughly) as far, or further, into the tech tree.

    Given that :science: is the limiting factor in almost any game of Civ, would you still stand by your original ordering:

     
  18. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    _____
     
  19. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    Btw, while we're ranting about game design...:mischief:

    How is it that any of the first tier tasks could ever get obsoleted by accident? It's not like we'd give 3 GP on our own, or that we'd make a 50XP ship. Also, there's no way any team would reach the modern age without getting to know the first task. Really, there should have been at least one first tier task that would have been urgent to know so that it wouldn't be possible to accomplish it if we don't know it early. This way, there's no real penalty for waiting to get to know first tasks. Just punishment for those that go about learning something that supposedly could become impossible later on.

    But anyway, other teams will get sucked into that thinking too.
     
  20. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Yamps, if you are serious about an early Catapult war, then you could run a test to show that beelining Construction will be faster than going to CoL (or any other tech) first. You would need to overcome the difficulties Duckweed outlines in posts #528 and #532.

    If it is faster, we could then weigh the benefits of declaring X turns sooner with the costs of delayed exploration, a later CS, earlier unit maintenance, etc. When a team disagrees on strategy, tests or mathematical arguments are best to point the way forward.

    FWIW, I was in the minority in arguing that Catapults > HArchers in SGOTM 18, against the majority opinion of my team, and tests showed this to be better.

    Not trying to be confrontational. :) I'm always happy to try to follow the strongest path, whatever that may be.
     

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