Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.
Sorry, bit pressed for time. The save looks good:
I just remembered the discussion over it and was amused by the turn of event.
Construction will slow down Astronomy - and Engineering. With the hidden objectives, I just can't see what good it'd do for us right now.
True, but the whole Astro & Engineering idea has come into question because of Cathy's task.
Construction would enable us earlier warring and city captures, which goes along with a more longer game than originally envisioned. We could increase our research base sooner. As stated earlier, we would also avoid GPP commitment while we still don't know Isabella's other tasks. Further, we could move in against Willem and gift him some workers when he has one city left and then recapture them by completely eliminating him. There's also the cheap Odean building that would give us 2 important early for only 40 hammers.
I thought about the fact that Sparta could 1-pop whip the Settler instead of the Granary:
1-pop whip this Settler, with 87/100H (87H means working the Lake for 1 more turn, so +2 for -1 ). 87+ 30 + 11 = 128/100
At size 3, the city works the 3 resources:
T74: Granary @ 22/60H. 0F + 33H
T75: Granary @ 55/60H. 6F + 5H
T76: Granary @ 60/60H. 12F, with 0H OF
Compare a Granary whip:
T74: Granary @ 22/60H. 0F + 8H
T75: Granary @ 30/60H. 5F + 5H
T76: Granary @ 65/60H. 11F, with 5H OF
Settler whip offers +1F, and Granary whip +5H.
The extra food would only be worthwhile if it let us regrow from size 3 ---> size 4 one turn sooner following a Settler whip (working the Lake for an additional turn, so +2F +2C vs. +5H).
But I can't see any realistic micro where the extra +1F will be needed to grow earlier in the next 10-15 turns. Most decisions will revolve around whether to work the Gems over the Lake (or vice versa) and +1F doesn't make a difference either way.
So current setup here seems fine.
Construction is better than CoLs if we are ready to build Catapults ~5 turns after DW's latest tests.
Athens will regrow on a Work Boat (for Fish Island) and then need to stagnate for a while (i.e. build Settlers/Workers). Due to unhappiness and zero Forests, it has low before ~T85.
Sparta will whip a Granary, regrow on a WB, and whip another Settler. 2 Settlers are needed in the west. 1 WB is needed to feed Whale/Fish and 1 WB is needed to explore the SW (for circumnavigation bonus).
Corinth: not a production city, so low contribution to any wars. Needs a Warrior + Library. Could grow on WB/Warrior/Library.
Thebes: no Granary/LH/Warrior on T73
Fish Island: no Granary/LH/Warrior on T73
Only Athens and Sparta are ready to produce Catapults, but Athens cannot produce these for long because of the happy cap, and Sparta has 4 builds that have equal or greater priority than Catapults (2x Settlers, 2x Work Boats). On T76/7, we will also have zero roads to move units. So I don't see a good reason to hurry to Construction.
I've spent a couple of hours testing and I've managed to find an improvement. Key points:
1080BC GLH without wonder whipping in the capital.
Granary done in Sparta, whipped a worker there in the last turn with overflow.
Got a settler from Corinth instead of Sparta.
Settler and worker already travelling on a galley towards the Corn spot on 1080BC.
Fish city about to grow to size 2 at which point it will whip its granary.
Our cities will be ready in my save to whip catapults. They will all have granaries at that time with corn city settled and worker improving it. We could also build cheap Odeons for 2 happy.
EDIT: let's also recall that we might need to intercept 2 turns of Archery before Construction. Further, after Corn city, we should just go on and take Will's cities. After the GLH, there would also be some time for additional workers while we wait for Construction so road building wouldn't be an issue. All in all, this is definitely doable.
I think that GLH now is too risky...
No I don't.
I am for GLH whip and against Furs chop. Athens will work Furs often and it will be 4th hammer for the city, meaning that it is worth one extra hammer with forge and +1 hammers with Bureaucracy. With only 3 hammers, we'll lose benefit from multipliers.
I got a forest grow in Athens in my 1080BC GLH attempt (didn't chop it). Too bad it won't happen in real game. I got a forest grow 1S of Corinth forest. I thought that tile needs 3 adjacent forests for forest grow...
We still don't have a clue where Iron is, so shaving off a turn from a Catapult or two isn't worth discarding some potential for the future, IMO. Remember that we can fail GLH and be size 6 at least. I'll still have to think about Cats before CoL benefits to get to the conclusion for myself at least. Currently, lack of a metal unit is what worries me the most about the Construction route. Maybe we'll need HAs.
Settler before Granary in Sparta is definitely a good move. And, yes, Corinth can build a settler too. It still has a forest.
I am not strongly against researching Construction for the moment, However as I told previously and what Doshin further explained, we are not ready to produce units before T80 and Construction takes 5~6 turn with 100% slider. Remember, cities can start producing barrack when there's really nothing to do.
If you WB 7th city, you'll find that the economy is no longer that forgiven as 6th city, it is going to cost -3~4C even working on a coastal tile. Therefore, having a strong economical base before starting the war is very important. In SGOTM16, we just REXed to around a dozen of cities with the support of GLH and then started warring non-stop.
I'm fine with whipping the GLH and keeping the furs, if other things work out.
I didn't get a work boat for Argos, but I have 28/60 granary and I will whip it on the next turn while you only have 24/60 and it will take you 3 turns to whip it. Further, the wbt you got won't be worked when the city is whipped. In my save, we could follow up with a wbt in Argos itself after granary. The city could easily whip it after granary.
You'd get Corn city on T77, while in my save we could unload on T74 and settle on T75 or T76 depending on the spot.
Your cities are of sizes 4,3,2,2,2 while my are at 4,3,3,2,1. The total pop is the same so we may want a more detailed comparison. I also have granary done in Sparta while you still have to whip it.
What about 40 hammer Odeons for 2 happiness? That's a big impact compared to CoL that we won't use for Caste.
What other city spots would be better than Will's existing coastal cities?
EDIT: It's also not a clear cut case for the fur forest. While it is true that we'd have 1 more hammer, it's also true we could at the same time have 1 more pop in the capital yielding much more than 1 lost hammer.
Also note I have one more forest in direct comparison near Corinth which will likely go for third wbt near Argos.
I'm starting to lean towards Masonry -> Code of Laws -> Construction.
We can indeed build Barracks for a few turns while waiting for Construction to complete.
Going for Code of Laws first gets us a religion and gives us more time for an AI to get Alphabet and maybe trade us Iron Working.
Knowing if we have iron or not would help make a better decision of whether to tech Construction or not. (No iron would make me about trying to conquer our continent now)
We have so much teching power, it feels like Construction is only delayed by 4 or 5 turns doing CoL first, and my catapult builds didn't start until about 2 turns after Construction finished.
And a huge natural spread of the Confu religion in our cities would go well with Organized Religion.
Especially if Liz doesn't build many missionaries.
Shaka doesn't have open borders with anyone, so our scout is NOT positioned to find a Shaka army marching towards us.
If the stack of doom is coming, it will be either from northeast of Willem's 2nd city or from the south of it.
Worst case is Shaka's army appears 4W2N or 4S3N of Sparta, and we only have 4 turns to react with Archery and Sparta whips.
Leaving Willem with 1 city is risky if it isn't behind our borders.
He won't open borders with us for 20 turns after a war most likely, so gifting workers will need to keep that in mind.
Some AI decides to capture his last city, our costs will triple.
Emergency gift cities are a pain to produce and place for an AI that might only last 2 turns past a war dec.
My trouble with CoL is that we don't really need it if we're not adopting Caste. The argument that possibly we don't need Construction just yet is not an automatic case for CoL. We could just as well set research to zero instead and play wait and see. The Odeon building also hasn't been addressed. Regarding IW, I really doubt it we don't have any nearby. Even in that case, we could still go with cats + archers in forest terrain to go and capture us some metal.
The Caste approach would make sense if we wanted Caste -> CS next with delayed Construction. But this loses on the Odeon bonus and it's also questionable when compared to getting AI coastal cities much earlier.
We should be able to control it if we're strong enough. Also, by that time we'll have tech gifts to keep Will at least cautious towards us regardless of the war. Are you sure he wouldn't open borders for that much time? Regardless, we'd be likely to roll on his first neighbor as well so that he doesn't get in trouble. I'm sure we could handle any such issue appropriately if it comes to that.
It's not a benefit, but disadvantage since that means your worker turns are short to translate into product.
All in all, I'm happy to see your statistical comparison of the overall output of your empire and mine. Everyone will agree with you if the result is on your side. Hmm, let capital yield set aside as it's related to whether to whip GLH, but the rest will give a conclusion of the micro of other cities.
An attempt 1080BC :
I can get more food in Athens but there is no point with happy cap so low at the moment so I let Thebes get the crabs. Should have given them for a turn more, probably.
Argos should've been size 2 but I forgot to work coast for 2T before border pop.
I think Thebes and Argos should 1 whip granary at size 3 since they have 2 or more food sources. I think Duckweed feels the same from looking at his screenshots.
Settler is out an moving. 4th worker is whipped and OF'd into WB for Argos, but Corinth is size 3 and can build settler quickly with extra mine to work, forest chop and one pop whip if we want to, but saving whip for a granary is probably better.
If I stopped researching after Masonry, there'd be approximately 279 gold in the bank.
I did a sloppy calculation of gold if we didn't research stuff and DW would have around 259G and Yamps around 248G.
What will worker near Thebes do on the island until galley returns? It is idle for 3T.
So you prefer a settler from Corinth, I was undecided before, but now I'm quite sure that I want granary since it's the best time for capital to give away the Corn and Corinth could help the military production afterwards.
We could produce 2 settlers from Athens and Sparta afterward. The timing should be all right since I doubt that we could get IW trade anytime soon.
I left the Fur city unwhip just in case there are some good reason of not whipping it. Generally, it should be whipped since the yield from any tile is hard to beat 4F from granary.
It is a borderline case for my rule of thumb, especially because Athens has LH now, but I don't think we'd lose much with the whip at 3 pop. I think that gets us to LH more quickly. Didn't test it though.
Good night people.
Try to be polite.
I think on the east coast are valuable at the moment, so would prefer that a Settler be built in Sparta > Corinth, even if this delays City #6 by one or two turns.
If a Settler is 100H and a Worker 60H, the site that builds a Worker will be 40H richer. This is basically 1.333 Work Boats.
Argos needs a second Work Boat for the turn that it grows to size 2. Growing to size 3 (then whip a Granary) while working a second improved Fish offers +4F compared to whipping a Granary at size 2 (then regrow). Initially, WB#2 = +4F.
The +4F means that we can grow to size 3 and then size 4 one turn sooner.
Growing onto a third unimproved Fish would be neutral. An improved Fish would contribute +3FPT. This could be worked for one or two turns, so: WB#3 = +3F or +6F.
WB#2 enables a LH whip one turn sooner (size 4 ---> size 2). WB#2 = +2F.
If WB#3 was in place at the optimal time (i.e. worked for two turns @ size 3) then we can 2-pop whip the Lighthouse and regrow immediately to size 3. Working a third Fish for an additional turn would mean: (optimal) WB#3 = +4F.
Total gain would range from +6F (whip Granary @ size 3 with WB#2) to +9F (WB#3 is 1 turn late) to +16F (WB #2 and WB #3 are in place ASAP).
Besides building WBs, Corinth could also use a Granary and to stay at size 3, for when we borrow the Corn (about T76ish?).
Basically, there is a lot to build in this area, and the capital is tied up with the GLH.
I am aware that perfect solutions are likely out of our reach. The challenge is to figure out the best compromise.
BTW, for me (IMHO ), the main value of going Construction ---> CoLs is an early Odeon in Athens and an assumption we will eventually go to war with Catapults.
The value of CoL ---> Construction is an early explorer (the Missionary), a second religion on our continent (for a second Temple in Sparta), and flexibility (CoL is needed whatever our tech path).
@Duckweed You don't get away handing over the burden of proof, you also have to prove that your overall empire state is better.
Why 1W of Corn? 1E is a much better spot. I guess you probably meant 1E though, it has more rivers.
I don't really have trouble in Argos. The city can whip its granary and 2 more work boats on its own while Corinth continues with Granary (chopped) -> Barracks and onto war efforts.
It's unfortunate that the worker got stuck for a while, but we can't get everything if we want an earlier city. It would build us a road on furs and one and only cottage while it waits, what else.
For what is worth, I played it out for a couple of more turns. On T76 I got Construction and on T77 Cathy got Alpha which in turn enabled Currency for Alpha and Alpha for IW. We'll see what happens in the real game.
What mattered is the Odeon. It's +100% for Creative leaders so only 40 hammers for 2 happy. From my test game, I continued with worker from the capital and barracks in Sparta. Then I switched to Odeon in Sparta and whipped it. On T80 Sparta would start on the first catapult, having built both Odeon and Barracks. Athens done with Odeon and Corinth building Barracks. The existing workers were enough to build connecting roads and it's all good to go. I did go on with CoL after Construction though, simply because there was nothing better. But still, Odeon was immediately useful as well as the first catapult in queue on T80.
Xpost with Doshin
I'd like a stronger western city for an earlier catapult.
I did mean 1W of the corn, because more forests are available and we do need them. the eastern forests can be used by the Fish site.
As I said, if you test Argos' future growth further or think about Doshin's last post, you'll find how much you lose from a single city. The gain from other city can't compensate the loss.
In the real game, most AIs don't have Writing yet, that's why I don't expect trade window in short time.
All right, there are really a lot of issues in debation, let's get the vote going to solve them.
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
2. Whip GLH?
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
5. What's the build in Corinth?
Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
Just a second, how is getting a second work boat better than getting a granary? At size 2, one improved fish and one unimproved fish would offer +5 food. Granary would effectively double that. On the other hand, another work boat would offer 3 more food compared to unimproved fish. So +8 food, but without a granary. I need to sleep now so I won't think about it more today. Clearing this up would offer some resolutions.
I'd also have to check simply moving the worker and settler by land from Corinth and waiting for the fur island worker to finish up. It's quite likely this would be better.
Of all the issues that Duckweed mentioned, I think going for Masonry -> Construction is the easiest one. It doesn't matter either way when choosing CoL vs Construction regarding AI trade options, we have enough trading chips already. What it comes down to is Odeon being useful very soon.
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