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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Strength 2 Impi win against cats. Impi is 35:hammers:, Cat is 50:hammers:. Alternative is sacrificing a cat against combat 2 Impi or an Axe on a hill, and defend with 3 cats more. Too expensive. I am not worried about surviving, I am worried about war being too expensive without metal units.

    Gifting a city on a hill makes Willem survive, gets us 3 free units, and, also, a diplo bonus if Amsterdam miraculously survives and we decide to take it out. I'd rather not do that, though. Mansa or Lizzy will get Alpha soon, hopefully.

    Letting Willem die before getting hints is no option for me.
     
  2. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Yep, it's a good option. Shaka has to prepare a new SOD from home to invade again. In the worst case, William capital might fall in the next 10 turns and then another 5 turns for the next city. we could then settle and gift a city for him.
     
  3. Yamps

    Yamps Deity

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    Ok, promoted combat III Impi would have 4*1.3 = 5.2 strength which would be annoying. Still, first things first. Let's get to Construction and start building catapults. If needed, I agree with city gifting. What's important though is that we don't deviate from the optimal path unless we really have to.

    While we're guessing, it could be that iron is somewhere near those northeastern plains so we might need another settler to gain it.

    Regarding the roster, it seems we're on a short rotation right now. Maybe Kaitzilla could step in now?
     
  4. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Shaka will need time to heal his surviving troops and gather a new stack. We will not be targeted until he has taken all of Willem's cities that are within reach, and even then we will have a grace period, until the war check rolls "yes," and he moves his troops to our borders... it will take at least 20 turns.

    BTW, Willem moved at least one Archer out of Utrecht to defend Amsterdam, "forgetting" that Impi ignore movement penalties (like the AI "forgets" the Woodsman II bonus). So he is not entirely helpless... just mostly. :lol: :stupid:

    The mapmaker has crippled rush units by removing Copper (also ties into the "no cheap early wonders" theme), and putting Horses far away while hiding the AI behind a sea of Forests. So I can see good reasons why he'd deny us these.

    Iron comes later, and it's not really a rush unit. Moreover, I imagine that Shaka was consistently attacking Willem in the test game. So the mapmaker will know that the humans are his next target, and will need something to fight with sooner or later.

    Worst case: the barb city sprung up on top of the Iron.

    There are limits to being sadistic. At a certain point it just becomes a grind for the teams if every likely assumption or good play they make is torpedoed.

    The circled spot rules out a Deer/Gems spot for us. A front line city with 5 Forests that is safe for ~20 turns is a huge boon, since we now have zero Forests or Roads in the entirety of our territory (the Fur Forest excepted :king:). It is soooooo useful to have productive cities near the front line when fighting with Catapults, assuming we are on the offensive.

    My earlier point...

    ...wasn't that we shouldn't gift Willem a city (I think that we should), but that spending 100 :hammers: on a Settler before declaring war means 100 :hammers: less on units, which will delay the DOW by at least a turn and maybe two.
     
  5. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Another point: we would ideally give Willem his freebie after we've settled any cities of our own that can contribute to a Catapult war Shaka (2–3 possibilities, I think).

    Fish Island will be a good candidate for producing later Settlers. It will soon have +14FPT, and will be our best production spot. It is also close to the NE, which seems like it'd be a good and safe (temporary) home for Willem.
     
  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Looking good. Construction vs Shaka should be very profitable (unless he somehow has super-gems to reach Feudalism quickly). Keep in mind Horse Archers + Catapults are available if there is no Iron handy. Archers for defense...

    ~~~

    Things are okay on my side but I have a few weeks of unexpected busy at my mother's now so I can't play for more than 30 minutes until things are stable :(
     
  7. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Updated the test game with the new Gem site available. Please use the save in this post.

    One of the difficult issue to determine next is when shall we settle the south Fish/Whale site. This site becomes more important with GLH since foreign trade routes are going to run out soon with more cities settled or capture in the mainland. We only have 1 galley, unless we want to produce a new one soon, otherwise we should send a settler to settle the Fish/Whale site as soon as possible and get it back. Argos will become a major production site for Settlers and need the galley constantly.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Sure, I'll take the next turnset.

    Ya, iron is probably right next to the sheep.
    Mapmaker being extra evil lately.


    This screenshot is very encouraging.
    Mansa might have a 2nd bronze to trade pretty soon. :)
    Possible trade items would be wheat(in 8 turns), fur, corn?, and cow?.
     
  9. Yamps

    Yamps Deity

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    Hmm, I'd like to take the spot shakabrade proposed with the current settler for us and not Will. It wouldn't get the gems, but those are under Willem's control for now. If Amsterdam falls, we could then settle the blue x gems spot to gift it to Willem. The main reason is that the shakabrade's spot is closer to us and on a hill. Easier defense and having a place for Shaka to suicide his stack could be important.

    Btw, isn't there a trick that if under 3 cities the AI would accept any city? This seems true at the moment, he'd take anything from us right now. In that case, we could really profit from Will going down by gifting him some city deep in our territory.
     
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    What a great idea! :D
    We can totally steal that Deer tile unless Willem can take back Utrecht. :nope:
    Shaka's Judaism can never stand up to our +2:culture: per turn.



    If we were going to conquer the west in a hurry, I'd settle there right now and forget all about corn in the short term.

    Just like you said, if Willem gets into serious trouble, we can gift him the city and it should spawn some free archers (pretty sure).
    Meanwhile, we can chop a big army there.
     
  11. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    I'd like the site north (the tile of test game marked) which covers the gem and a coastal site as well. It's a useful site and not a gift in my mind. William won't be dead in 15 turns, in the worst case, gift him a crappy site somewhere else will also halt Shaka's steps.

    We won't be ready for the war soon, there are lots of good sites to settle peacefully.

    6th: Deer/Gem
    7th: Corn
    8th: Fish/Whale
    9th: Iron or Horse
     
  12. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Glad to hear things aren't too bad, even if they're not entirely stable.

    :thumbsup:

    Yep. 3 resources might even be enough.

    We won't need to trade for it for some time, though, since (in terms of the war effort) we can concentrate on Barracks and Catapults before then.

    If the Galley makes the trip now, it should need ~10 turns to reach the Whale site, and ~11 turns to make the return trip to Argos. Sparta is probably a better candidate for a Settler, if Athens produces the Settler for the Corn.

    If the timing really doesn't work out, we could also settle one of the Fish islands to the south of Thebes. These are considerably closer to Argos, although they won't contribute much outside of trade routes.

    Less than 4, in fact.

    If he goes down to one city, the steal :gold: mission becomes very good, IIRC, so we can get most of our cash back, if he hasn't spent it by then.

    -----

    Regarding the Deer, I am strongly in favor of settling the location I marked. There are several advantages compared to the hill site, namely, in the short-term, it gains +2 coastal trade routes; in the medium-term, it can work the Gems; in the long-term, it means that we need one less Settler.

    Settling on a hill would be good for defense, but Shaka will be tied up fighting Willem before we attack, especially if we gift a city that he can't reach, so I don't mind settling on flatland. Suicide hill cities are great for wiping out stacks if you are under pressure and need to defend, but we will have Catapults soon which makes offensive wars more :hammers: effective.

    The hill city would have more Forests, but we won't have enough Worker turns to chop all 10(!) before declaring.

    ---

    BTW, which cities are going to receive Barracks?

    Athens + Sparta for sure. And Corinth? Either of the islands?

    ---

    @shakabrade

    Spoiler :
    This is our third SGOTM together now, so I am very excited about seeing you play your first turn-set. ;)
     
  13. Yamps

    Yamps Deity

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    Okay, if we can get away with a city gift such that Shaka can't reach it, we have plenty of time for everything.
     
  14. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Willem's capital has control of those gems and at least turn73*4:culture:=292:culture:
    Taking the gems wouldn't be easy until his capital was captured.

    It would certainly be stronger economically being coastal.
    It just doesn't pack the same punch militarily. 5 forests vs. 11 forests.

    If it made a galley though, hrmm
    That would help attack in all kinds of directions.
    Also, I can see we've finally discovered where Elizabeth is hiding.


    Turn 73, Real Game Photodump!

    Empire Overview
    Spoiler :











    Empire
    (note all the +3:gold: trade routes :))
    Spoiler :



















    Useful Info
    Spoiler :
















     
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Less Useful Info
    Spoiler :














     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I have mentioned the possibility to play on wife's laptop. Anyway, I was granted a green light (she OBs at Pleased).

    That means that I can take this turn set.:D

    Liar!
    I have moved a settler at least once!
     
  17. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Done! :goodjob:

    Also, wanted to add some possible spawnbusting and fort schemes.
    Can barb cities cut trade routes if they block all coastal tiles?
    If so, we might want to keep our path clear to Mansa since he has almost twice our population and is shaping up to being the super power AI.
    Spoiler :



    Barb cities are likely to spawn near food sources so these 2 spots would be best I think.
    Maybe 1-pop whip Thebes at Size 3 to make 2 warriors instantly.
    Run them down there real quick with our Galley.



    The fort scheme doesn't really come into play until later when we have a 4:move: galley and want to attack Elizabeth, but it's fun to keep in mind if we decided we needed it.
    In the short term, a road on the dotted yellow line is best to move troops. No hurry needed for trade routes.
    Later on when workers don't have so many things to do, the fort near the city is easy.
    Once the city reaches 100:culture:, a 2nd fort 3N3W of Sparta and a road can be built 1N1W of Sparta to enable faster troop movement northwest.
    Finally, a 3rd fort can be constructed 1N1W of Sparta to enable galleys to travel from Sparta+Athens+Horse city etc.



    This 3rd pic would be nice to get rid of most all barb galley troubles, but it is probably beyond our resources.

     
  18. Yamps

    Yamps Deity

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    And declares at Friendly too, I presume. ;)
     
  19. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    One "barely useful" fact that I'd noticed is that we are still number #9 in soldier count, and Willem is not #10. When I was trying/failing to break down demographics, I mentioned that there was a tiny AI. So it makes sense that one of the AI has been totally gimped.

    I wonder if Catherine #2 involves the kcd_swede special... Paratroopers! :lol: A rubbish AI with one Grassland tile that is surrounded by Mountains needs to be conquered, because s/he insulted Catherine, or something similar.

    ----

    We're exchanging :commerce: for :hammers: , and it isn't a straightforward decision.

    The :hammers: difference will come from Forests. Utrecht will take 3 Forests from the Deer site in its 1st culture ring, the difference is: 8 Forests (Deer) vs. 5 Forests (Deers/Gems). The extra 3 Forests would contribute +90 :hammers: to a Catapult war, although we'd need 12+ Worker turns to do this.

    Let's assume that we will want to settle a city that picks up the Gems eventually, the question is: when? On T78, or after we have an army and are mostly done with building troops (i.e. our stack is now big enough to finish off Shaka)?

    The difference might be ~40 turns. If we ignore the chance that we might be able to work the Gems (if Shaka conquers Amsterdam) and the fact that we will eventually need an extra Settler (100H), we're left with the GLH trade routes to consider: (2*3) * 40 = 240 :commerce: .

    Spreading 2 cities across the (A) Deer and (B) Deer + Gems, rather than just the one on the (A) Deer + Gems, also means that we have one less Settler in ~40 turns to claim another site. It's too far to predict, but there is at least one more Deer/Gems site in Willem's territory that we might need to settle (depends on whether Shaka dares to settle that close to his enemy) and we might find Marble or Gold/Silver/calendar resources on an unsettled island. Worst case would be that we have an extra 100H in ~40 turns, or an extra so-so city, like the northern Fish on our continent.

    edit: there are a few other variables, e.g. Deer can be settled earlier, has instant access to a food source, and is easier to defend in an emergency; Gems could build Galleys to invade Amsterdam or Elizabeth.
     
  20. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    It was the highlight of SGOTM 17 for me. :love:
     

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