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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. BSPollux

    BSPollux Chieftain

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    Wow guys, what happened? All that activity, on a Monday of all days! Nice pics and nice plans and nice theories :)
     
  2. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Barb cities do block trade routes. The barb city on our continent forced us to change our exploring plans.

    Do barbarian cities spring up on 1 or 2-tile islands? I can't remember ever seeing it happen, so I don't know if it is impossible, or just very unlikely.

    This is the Whale/Fish island Duckweed mentioned needs to be considered.
     
  3. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Looks like you are right.
    Barb guide mentions the 1 tile islands.

    LHC means Lonely Hearts Club I think.
    That just means an isolated island right?

    Anyway, it explains why the barb city of Parthian spawned on our big continent near that deer.
    Guess we don't need to worry about barbs cutting our Mansa route after all. :)

    **Edit**
    Found some better calculations here.
    Don't really understand it, but barb cities do seem to favor continents with lots of land tiles for 1st barb city spawns.
    Spoiler :



    That would explain who could be weaker than us ya.
    Probably some civ named Switzerland, who lost Catherine's swiss bank account.
    Conquer them to win her vengeful heart! :ar15:
     
  4. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I am glad someone appreciates the idea. We get to control Willem's destiny by scouting Amsterdam for Shaka's stack and we chop out the army before that. It can also defend if we are unlucky with metals. It loses us commerce, but gives us hammers when we want to make SoD quickly, which is a priority.

    Doshin's place is better economically, but doesn't contribute to earlier SoD as much, nor it saves Willem's as*. Both being of greater priority. And deer is in the first ring.

    I see you've met.


    j/k
    No, she's great. I am simply prone to performing -9 relations faux pais without (still) realizing that.
     
  5. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    Hmm, I think that Doshin made a stronger case for the coastal spot. There's more forest at shakabrade's site, but we'd also have to spend many worker turns for chopping there instead of improving something else. It's also only 90 hammers more if chopped, so not that important when compared to commerce losses.

    We can save Will by gifting him some city behind our borders so that Shaka couldn't reach it. That would keep them at prolonged war and give us more time to prepare.

    Regarding the whale island, we'd have issues with barb galleys there. As it is, the barb city is preventing galley spawning and others won't come for crabs near Sparta because they are too far (more than 8 tiles from first possible barb galley).
     
  6. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    6th Corn (from Sparta) to be developed before workers go to deer

    7th Deer + more forests (from Athens) cause we need workers for that city. Gems with Amsterdam alive, like you predict, don't contribute for 15T +turns to develop them.
    If Shaka is like Monty, he might go for domination already and declare immediately after a succesful war. Also, he can just go for a pillage.

    8th Fish/Whale

    9th Iron, don't see any use of horses until cuirs and we won't lose that site to anybody :dunno:

    From my perspective, if we are able to utilize extra forests in Deer, it is worth it. Don't forget the tactical option to gift it and keep Willem alive.

    :love:

    PD are always community friendly and transparent with game knowledge. That deserves a hint, wouldn't you agree?
     
  7. BSPollux

    BSPollux Chieftain

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    You'll get two hints, I'm in a good mood. But you'll have to translate them:

    Streichle niemals einen brennenden Hund!
    and
    Iss nie den gelben Schnee!
     
  8. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    T85 is the usual Galley date on Deity, so, T90 on Imm. We could settle it even if it gets pillaged. Metal Casting shouldn't be that far now that we are planning for some wars.
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Brennenden Hund could be Shaka and gelben Schnee is yellow like pissed snow so Shaka again.


    Shaka must be dealt with, I guess. Don't underestimate Shaka. Something like that. Vague enough to be ok to other teams.
     
  10. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    It's hard to settle this, but it is the best visible island city. We'd need to test to see if it is viable.

    The AI not on our continent have 13 cities now. Amsterdam/Sparta/Corinth will suck up 12 foreign trade routes (once we're connected to Izzy), and Deer/Deer-Gems, Corn, and Horse/Iron (if settled) will begin to rely on domestic trade routes.

    A third island city might contribute 2-3CPT to our mainland cities initially, and this will increase by 1CPT for every other mainland city that we settle or capture during the war. It will also contribute 8CPT through its own trade routes.

    So we will need a third island city. The question is, when can we settle it?

    Fish/Whale is harder, because we need to produce the Settler sooner. But it is also a much better site that can contribute in an active way to our empire. Moreover, the following turns will be the last time that our Galley is free. Once Argos is set up, the Galley will be anchored to our east coast ferrying Settlers/Workers and units to the mainland. To settle Fish/Whale later on, we'll need another Galley.

    A 1-tile Fish island is easier to claim, because we can produce the Settler later. But, unlike Whale/Fish, a city like this can only contribute passively to our empire with trade routes.

    So we should aim to settle Whale/Fish, unless testing shows this is not going to be feasible or advantageous.
     
  11. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    If the ultimate aim of the war is to increase our BPT, the access to earlier hammers will need to compensate for the loss of the GLH trade routes, Gems, and the need to produce an extra Settler (the short-, medium-, and long-term benefits of the Deer/Gems city I mention in post #652).

    If you can show the extra Forests can all be chopped, and that this lead to an earlier DOW, and that this can compensate for the initial loss of commerce (which is very steep), then I will be convinced. :)

    I don't think Willem will fold to Shaka for ~15 turns. I mean, he might... :lol: but Shaka lost most of his SOD in the initial attack, so he will still need time to consolidate, heal, and produce a new stack.

    Workers have plenty to do: the capital needs improvements, we have zero roads, the Corn site has numerous Forests to be chopped. Some hills could also be mined if food (too much or too little) affects our whips.

    Horse site is ok, btw. 9th on the list of priorities seems about right, and it has a few Forests to help with the late warring. In ~15 turns, a 3-pop Settler whip in Athens or Sparta could control unhappiness and produce a Sword or Axe with the OF.
     
  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Let's think about the most important issue: who is our 1st war target?

    • William: His capital is a great GP farm, we don't need a big SOD to start. However, we need to buy more hints from him and is not easy to control.
    • Shaka: We need a much bigger SOD to start and need more effort to produce enforcement.

    Shaka is my choice, that's the reason why I said we won't be ready for war soon.

    The benefit of grabbing the Gem site is not only the commerce from GLH, but also the gain from a strong tile after William loses his capital. Those turns won't be short. Settling the Deer site in the middle gives more forests to chop. 11 forests takes 2 workers 22 turns to chop. 6 more forests = 180H=3 catas + 1 axe. If we want to attack Shaka 1st, then it's 25% of the initial forces. Probably 2~3 turns earlier war. Will that beat the commerce gain from Gem site(2 additional trade routes from GLH for ~100 turns plus the yield from gem for ~60 turns, that's nearly 800C) and better improvement of empire from saved worker turns? We are very short of worker forces at the moment, Corn site is going to take 2 workers for very long time, cities needs a road network for gathering the SOD, and capital needs improvement as well.

    The advantage of settling the Fish/Whale site early is not only the trade route income, but also the early settlement of a potential GP farm.

    If Iron is already in our current culture border, then Horse site is a good candidate, the Fur resource is useful for trade, plus earlier culture revolt of the barbarian city.

    The advantage of settling the Deer/Gem site before Corn site is that Deer site only needs 2 chops for the granary and then workers can road toward Corn site to help. The 2 workers in Athens can help with the improvements and road network along Athens->Corinth->Sparta->Deer site.
     
  13. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    If we compare the two potential Corn sites (the vote was split 3:3 earlier), 1W of the Corn claims 7 Forests, 1E of the Corn claims 5 Forests:

    Spoiler :


    ^^^ settling 1W will flatten a Forest as well.

    1E has two more riverside Grassland tiles... but both 1W and 1E will spend their immediate futures growing from sizes 2/3 to size 4, followed by a whip. Any commerce lost in 1W will be trivial (only on those turns where we stay @ size 4) and another city 2S of the Fish will later pick up two of the remaining riverside Grasslands. The commerce loss from settling 1SE of the Deer (compared to the Deer/Gems), by contrast, is significant.

    So, for me, it's better to gain +2 Forests in the Corn city, and have 3–5 fewer Forests in the Deer site (–5 before the Horse is settled, –3 Forests after) and ultimately need one less Settler.

    ----

    It would also be good to know when Athens will produce its next two Settlers, and whether we can settle the Corn before Gift Sheep. For us, it is better to claim the Corn first. However, without roads, it takes ~7 turns for a Settler to go from Athens to the Sheep, and the longer we postpone the gift, the greater the risk that Shaka will take Willem's last city.
     
  14. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    @Whale/Fish

    MC is not on our immediate route and testing can't be conclusive since we don't know the map there. It's highly probable that barb galleys will appear, taking away the fish from us.

    @Gift city

    Let's hope there's no iron near the sheep spot. :mischief:

    EDIT:

    Regarding the war, I think we should attack Willem first because he's closer to us. We could first gift him some city behind our borders and come back later with worker/gold gifts before complete elimination.
     
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Test Game, Turn 87
    Ok, I've run through the test game until my eyes bled. :whipped:
    Here's the best I got so far:

    Turn 78 Deer City
    Turn 87 Corn City (Settled 1W of corn)
    Turn 88 Fish Whale City (Fish net gets guarded by Galley :))
    Turn 92 Northern Fish or Northern Sheep city
    Turn 93 we need to start running 2 scientists somewhere or Sparta will produce a Great Prophet. :sad:

    The Corn City can have its Granary chopped and the corn improved by Turn 89 with clever roads and prechops using 3 workers.

    Argos is a monster ready to 3-pop whip a settler on T89.
    It just has to put some overflow in on T87, then grow to Size 3 on T88.
    Worker can road 1N1W of Argos and join the settler going north on the new 2nd Galley from Corinth.
    On Turn 87 it already has Granary, Lighthouse, Library, and Odeon complete.


    Athens built a Workboat, the Fish+Whale settler, and has over half of an Odeon complete.
    Sparta built the Deer City settler, Workboat, and Corn City settler.
    Sparta also had to send its garrison warrior to Argos and get a replacement warrior from Corinth to manage :mad: problems.
    Athens also had to produce a warrior and send it to Corinth. :lol:






    T73 Test Game is pretty solid.
    Just have to delete the stealth bomber in Sparta and trade away the Wheat so all the cities have less :health:.

    Here's some screenshots in case anyone cares to see the micro.
    All pictures are taken at the very end of the turn.

    Turn 73 to Turn 80
    Spoiler :
    Turn 73


    Turn 74


    Turn 75


    Turn 76


    Turn 77


    Turn 78


    Turn 79


    Turn 80

    Turn 81 to Turn 87
    Spoiler :
    Turn 81


    Turn 82


    Turn 83


    Turn 84


    Turn 85


    Turn 86


    Turn 87


     

    Attached Files:

  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    You keep forgetting that for gems to be useful, you need Amsterdam captured and that implies that we have produced a settler and gifted a city to Willem because we want him alive. Gems city according to your own calculations can start using those gems in 20T.

    Regarding Corn site, it will be 4-2 whipped. 1E offers one more farm.
     
  17. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ya, we got to conquer Amsterdam to get that gem tile.
    Building an Odeon for +3:culture: and trying to take it culturally would probably take too long.


    If we are going to do Gems City instead of 1SE of Deer for :gold: reasons, then I kind of want to settle Corn City 1W of corn.
    It has more chops, is 2 tiles closer to the front, and can still work 3 farms (counting the corn).
    4-2 whipped ya. :)

    We can always squeeze in a coastal cottage city 2E of corn at a later date.
    Actually, no we can't. :hmm:
    Maybe 4N of Corinth.
    Could farm one of the riverside grasslands, farm the 2 grassland near the corn once we have Bureaucracy, and then cottage up the whole river growing with 5:food: at Size 3+
     
  18. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    @Kaitzilla

    Great show of your test, I have to think a while before more comments.

    Instant intuition:

    • Sparta could work on the lake tiles on size 3 (what Doshin suggested before) to speed up the settler.
    • Argos does not need workers in short time, working on water tiles should be fine, 2F2C is better than 4H with whip

    Other thoughts (without test):
    • The warrior 3W1S of Sparta can be spared for city police.
    • Argos could produce a warrior on its own, if that solves the happy issue, there's no need of a galley temporary
    • Shall we consider start laying down some cottages in Athens, 4/5 farm tile can be a farm, the others better to be cottages.
    • If you let the galley sails to the Fish/whale site immediately instead of sending a worker to Argos, we could settle the site earlier and save worker forces on other usage.
    • Athens could take back the Wheat to speedup the settler whip (while the happy cap still supports, the less turn on producing settler/worker, the better usage of granary) and let the OF goes to Odeon. Capital could whip to size 4 happy cap before T90 and then let other cities take away the wheat and clam.
    Did I leave the stealth bombers? That's amusing.:mischief: We could keep them to increase the cost since the mainteinance fee in test save is less than the real game due to resource trade.


    Corn+2 riverside grasslands at size 3, then whip @size 4.
     
  19. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @Kaitzilla

    Very nice test and pics. :) I haven't tested at all, but these are my first thoughts:

    • Sparta could gain +1F by whipping the Settler into the Granary, and up to +4F by working the Lake > Gems.

      I don't think the +1F is useful at all (it loses 5H from the earlier whip) but working the Lake is definitely helpful:

      (A) Work Lake @ Size 3

      T74: 0/28 (Grass Hill > Lake)
      T75: 5/28 (whip Granary. Work Gems > Lake)
      T76: 11/26 (Granary completed. Now work Lake > Gems.)
      T77: 19/26
      T78: 27/26 ---> 14/28 (work Gems @ size 4)
      T79: 21/28
      T80: 28/28 ---> 14/30 (size 5, start Settler)

      ...

      T84: Settler complete​

      (B) Work Gems @ Size 3

      T0: 0/28
      T1: 5/28 (whip Granary) ---> 5/26
      T2: 11/26 (Granary completed. Work Gems > Lake)
      T3: 17/26
      T4: 23/26
      T5: 29/26 ---> 16/28 (work Lake @ size 4)
      T6: 23/28
      T7: 30/28 ---> 16/30 (size 5)

      T85: Settler complete​

      The Lake is worth 3F2C, and the Gems 1F2H7C, and if 1F = 2H/C the Lake is only slightly weaker (–3 H/CPT, for 2 turns). The short-term loss should be offset by the earlier growth/Settler whip.

    • Following (A) above and emphasizing growth, can Sparta build the Whale/Fish Settler, and Athens the Corn Settler? This pic:

      Spoiler :

      ...suggests that a Sparta Settler produced on T84 can immediately load onto the Galley.

      If Sparta produces the Whale/Fish Settler, we can use the Athens Settler to claim Corn on T84, at the very latest, and T83 is definitely possible (not sure about T82) where your original settles it on T87.

    • Roads from Athens <---> Corinth are fine. We could weigh the advantages of roading some tiles north of Corinth as well. A road 1N would speed "Gift Sheep" by one turn, and let us sell or trade another Gems. Another road 2N1W of Corinth would speed "Corn City" by one turn, if Athens produces this Settler.

    • Argos is a hard city to manage. It could produce its own Warrior. We definitely shouldn't move a Worker to the island: it can produce its own, and I am very reluctant to mine more than 1 Plains Hill in any case (1F = 2H/C, so a 2F2C Coastal tile will be stronger than a 4H Plains Hill in almost all situations).

    • Sticking with Argos: we could control unhappiness by running some Scientists initially, 2-pop whipping a Worker, and 3-pop whipping a Settler later. I'm not sure of the exact build order, but working Plains Hills should be a last resort to control unhappiness (if it, e.g., speeds an Odeon or unit by one turn, that's ok).
     
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    If Sparta wanted to work the lake instead of riverside gems at Size 3, it could make a Settler 1 turn faster ya.
    That Settler could be sent to Whale+Fish instead of Corn City sure.

    When would the workboat arrive at Whale+Fish in that scenario?
    Settling Whale+Fish 1 turn earlier doesn't mean much if fish isn't improved.


    Argos building its own warrior is kind of funny.
    It tries to do it on Turn 82, but it can only put in 14/15:hammers: frustratingly.
    The next turn the city goes Pop 4 and :mad: without a garrison.
    2:hammers: extra can be gained working plains hilltop instead of unimproved fish on Turn 79.
    I need to check if the missing 2:food: delays growing to Size 3 on Turn 81.

    So I figured, if I'm shipping across a warrior, might as well ship a worker too!
    You guys laugh at the 4:hammers: plains hilltops, but they are great for Worker/Settler pumps.
    Instead of 16:hammers: per turn at Size 5, the city produces 20:hammers: per turn!
    It also slows Argos' growth down a little which it really really needs.
    Argos grows so fast it is ridiculous.
    Even 2 scientists doesn't slow the growth down enough.
    3 Fish and 2scientists only give 12:hammers: per turn building Workers/Settlers which feels kind of weak.
    Try to run Argos to Turn 90 without any improved plains hilltops and you'll see how much you miss them when your overflow builds are short some hammers. :crazyeye:
    If you can juggle Argos without any mine improvements just fine, I'll happily forget about sending any worker there.


    Deer City needs 2 workers for a time.
    Doing Corn City with Athens settler gets the city down faster, but will it have granary and improved corn by turn 89? :hmm:

    **Edit**
    If we use the Athens settler instead of the Sparta settler for Corn City, the following changes occur:
    Corn City is founded Turn 85 instead of T87.
    If we don't use a worker to improve Argos, then Corn City gets a granary on T87 instead of T88.
    The corn tile gets improved T88 instead of T89 and 3rd gems gets connected.

    Gems City gets to keep a worker instead of Argos being improved.
    Sheep City can steal a worker from Corn City later if Argos doesn't make one. Hrmm
     

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