Done!
Also, wanted to add some possible spawnbusting and fort schemes.
Can barb cities cut trade routes if they block all coastal tiles?
If so, we might want to keep our path clear to Mansa since he has almost twice our population and is shaping up to being the super power AI.
Barb cities are likely to spawn near food sources so these 2 spots would be best I think.
Maybe 1-pop whip Thebes at Size 3 to make 2 warriors instantly.
Run them down there real quick with our Galley.
Barb cities do block trade routes. The barb city on our continent forced us to change our exploring plans.
Do barbarian cities spring up on 1 or 2-tile islands? I can't remember ever seeing it happen, so I don't know if it is impossible, or just very unlikely.
Yes, I recommend actual fogbusting in the juicy areas with high founding values (lot's of resources, often coastal) where you plan to get a city up via a settler. It's interesting to note that the likelihood for an early barb city spawning on your LHC island is rather low -- the game prefers to spawn them on the continents with the highest number of owned tiles, even if these places are much crappier than the sites on your continent.
Barb City Spawning works like this (BC = Barbarian Cities.. Civ= non Barb Civ, TG = Target Barb Cities (global) TC= Target Barb Cities (Continental), TCM Total Cities Modifier)
1. Determine if a Barb city will spawn
Requirements:
Number of Civ Cities >= Number of Civs alive * 2
Game Turn > Barb city Spawning Turn (based on Difficulty)
Random (1-100) < Barb City Creation probability (based on Difficulty)
2. Determine Where the barb city will spawn
The barb city will spawn on the city center tile that has the highest Value and meets the Requirements
Requirements:
Not Water,
Not Visible to Civs
Number of Barb cities on that Tile's continent < TC
The Value of a City settling Tile for barbs is calculated this way
=Basic AI city founding Value with a "Min Barb city Starting distance" factor
*Number of Owned tiles on the continent IF TCM >100
+100-150 (Random)
/100
The Highest Value gets it
TC (Target Number of BC for a continent)
=Unowned Tiles
* 3 if there are no civ cities on this continent (Barb cities here=total cities here)
* a Modifier (TCM) if the number of Total tiles on this continent are low (less than 1/3 of the total 'unowned tiles per barbarian city')
/ Unowned Tiles per barbarian city (Handicap info)
TG (Target number of BC for the world)
= 5*Civ Cities*Barb City Creation probability/100
TCM (Modifier)
=100
+300 * (TG-BC)/TG (Positive numbers only)
*1.5 if Raging Barbs is on
One "barely useful" fact that I'd noticed is that we are still number #9 in soldier count, and Willem is not #10. When I was trying/failing to break down demographics, I mentioned that there was a tiny AI. So it makes sense that one of the AI has been totally gimped.
I wonder if Catherine #2 involves the kcd_swede special... Paratroopers! A rubbish AI with one Grassland tile that is surrounded by Mountains needs to be conquered, because s/he insulted Catherine, or something similar.
What a great idea!
We can totally steal that Deer tile unless Willem can take back Utrecht.
Shaka's Judaism can never stand up to our +2 per turn.
If we were going to conquer the west in a hurry, I'd settle there right now and forget all about corn in the short term.
Just like you said, if Willem gets into serious trouble, we can gift him the city and it should spawn some free archers (pretty sure).
Meanwhile, we can chop a big army there.
And declares at Friendly too, I presume.
I'd like the site north (the tile of test game marked) which covers the gem and a coastal site as well. It's a useful site and not a gift in my mind. William won't be dead in 15 turns, in the worst case, gift him a crappy site somewhere else will also halt Shaka's steps.
We won't be ready for the war soon, there are lots of good sites to settle peacefully.
6th: Deer/Gem
7th: Corn
8th: Fish/Whale
9th: Iron or Horse
One "barely useful" fact that I'd noticed is that we are still number #9 in soldier count, and Willem is not #10. When I was trying/failing to break down demographics, I mentioned that there was a tiny AI. So it makes sense that one of the AI has been totally gimped.
I wonder if Catherine #2 involves the kcd_swede special... Paratroopers! A rubbish AI with one Grassland tile that is surrounded by Mountains needs to be conquered, because s/he insulted Catherine, or something similar.
----
Sounds right to me. even if you are wrong.
We're exchanging for , and it isn't a straightforward decision.
The difference will come from Forests. Utrecht will take 3 Forests from the Deer site in its 1st culture ring, the difference is: 8 Forests (Deer) vs. 5 Forests (Deers/Gems). The extra 3 Forests would contribute +90 to a Catapult war, although we'd need 12+ Worker turns to do this.
Let's assume that we will want to settle a city that picks up the Gems eventually, the question is: when? On T78, or after we have an army and are mostly done with building troops (i.e. our stack is now big enough to finish off Shaka)?
The difference might be ~40 turns. If we ignore the chance that we might be able to work the Gems (if Shaka conquers Amsterdam) and the fact that we will eventually need an extra Settler (100H), we're left with the GLH trade routes to consider: (2*3) * 40 = 240 .
Spreading 2 cities across the (A) Deer and (B) Deer + Gems, rather than just the one on the (A) Deer + Gems, also means that we have one less Settler in ~40 turns to claim another site. It's too far to predict, but there is at least one more Deer/Gems site in Willem's territory that we might need to settle (depends on whether Shaka dares to settle that close to his enemy) and we might find Marble or Gold/Silver/calendar resources on an unsettled island. Worst case would be that we have an extra 100H in ~40 turns, or an extra so-so city, like the northern Fish on our continent.
edit: there are a few other variables, e.g. Deer can be settled earlier, has instant access to a food source, and is easier to defend in an emergency; Gems could build Galleys to invade Amsterdam or Elizabeth.
It was the highlight of SGOTM 17 for me.
Wow guys, what happened? All that activity, on a Monday of all days! Nice pics and nice plans and nice theories
Hmm, I think that Doshin made a stronger case for the coastal spot. There's more forest at shakabrade's site, but we'd also have to spend many worker turns for chopping there instead of improving something else. It's also only 90 hammers more if chopped, so not that important when compared to commerce losses.
What else is there left to improve if deer are #7, actually?
We can save Will by gifting him some city behind our borders so that Shaka couldn't reach it. That would keep them at prolonged war and give us more time to prepare.
That is also worth . If you go for Deer, you'll save them. Prolonged war leads to stronger Shaka's SoD. Let him suicide it.
Regarding the whale island, we'd have issues with barb galleys there. As it is, the barb city is preventing galley spawning and others won't come for crabs near Sparta because they are too far (more than 8 tiles from first possible barb galley).
You'll get two hints, I'm in a good mood. But you'll have to translate them:
Streichle niemals einen brennenden Hund!
and
Iss nie den gelben Schnee!
It's hard to settle this, but it is the best visible island city. We'd need to test to see if it is viable.Regarding the whale island, we'd have issues with barb galleys there. As it is, the barb city is preventing galley spawning and others won't come for crabs near Sparta because they are too far (more than 8 tiles from first possible barb galley).
If the ultimate aim of the war is to increase our BPT, the access to earlier hammers will need to compensate for the loss of the GLH trade routes, Gems, and the need to produce an extra Settler (the short-, medium-, and long-term benefits of the Deer/Gems city I mention in post #652).From my perspective, if we are able to utilize extra forests in Deer, it is worth it. Don't forget the tactical option to gift it and keep Willem alive.
Workers have plenty to do: the capital needs improvements, we have zero roads, the Corn site has numerous Forests to be chopped. Some hills could also be mined if food (too much or too little) affects our whips.What else is there left to improve if deer are #7, actually?
9th Iron, don't see any use of horses until cuirs and we won't lose that site to anybody
You keep forgetting that for gems to be useful, you need Amsterdam captured and that implies that we have produced a settler and gifted a city to Willem because we want him alive. Gems city according to your own calculations can start using those gems in 20T.
Regarding Corn site, it will be 4-2 whipped. 1E offers one more farm.
Did I leave the stealth bombers? That's amusing. We could keep them to increase the cost since the mainteinance fee in test save is less than the real game due to resource trade.Just have to delete the stealth bomber in Sparta and trade away the Wheat so all the cities have less .
You keep forgetting that for gems to be useful, you need Amsterdam captured and that implies that we have produced a settler and gifted a city to Willem because we want him alive. Gems city according to your own calculations can start using those gems in 20T.
No. I have not forgot, I said ~60 turns of Gem and assumed this game is going to last until ~T200, that's the worst case. If Shaka succeeds in capturing soon, 40 turns more.
Regarding Corn site, it will be 4-2 whipped. 1E offers one more farm.
@Kaitzilla
Very nice test and pics. I haven't tested at all, but these are my first thoughts:
- Sparta could gain +1F by whipping the Settler into the Granary, and up to +4F by working the Lake > Gems.
I don't think the +1F is useful at all (it loses 5H from the earlier whip) but working the Lake is definitely helpful:
(A) Work Lake @ Size 3
T74: 0/28 (Grass Hill > Lake)
T75: 5/28 (whip Granary. Work Gems > Lake)
T76: 11/26 (Granary completed. Now work Lake > Gems.)
T77: 19/26
T78: 27/26 ---> 14/28 (work Gems @ size 4)
T79: 21/28
T80: 28/28 ---> 14/30 (size 5, start Settler)
...
T84: Settler complete
(B) Work Gems @ Size 3
T0: 0/28
T1: 5/28 (whip Granary) ---> 5/26
T2: 11/26 (Granary completed. Work Gems > Lake)
T3: 17/26
T4: 23/26
T5: 29/26 ---> 16/28 (work Lake @ size 4)
T6: 23/28
T7: 30/28 ---> 16/30 (size 5)
T85: Settler complete
The Lake is worth 3F2C, and the Gems 1F2H7C, and if 1F = 2H/C the Lake is only slightly weaker (–3 H/CPT, for 2 turns). The short-term loss should be offset by the earlier growth/Settler whip.
- Following (A) above and emphasizing growth, can Sparta build the Whale/Fish Settler, and Athens the Corn Settler? This pic:
...suggests that a Sparta Settler produced on T84 can immediately load onto the Galley.
If Sparta produces the Whale/Fish Settler, we can use the Athens Settler to claim Corn on T84, at the very latest, and T83 is definitely possible (not sure about T82) where your original settles it on T87.
- Roads from Athens <---> Corinth are fine. We could weigh the advantages of roading some tiles north of Corinth as well. A road 1N would speed "Gift Sheep" by one turn, and let us sell or trade another Gems. Another road 2N1W of Corinth would speed "Corn City" by one turn, if Athens produces this Settler.
- Argos is a hard city to manage. It could produce its own Warrior. We definitely shouldn't move a Worker to the island: it can produce its own, and I am very reluctant to mine more than 1 Plains Hill in any case (1F = 2H/C, so a 2F2C Coastal tile will be stronger than a 4H Plains Hill in almost all situations).
- Sticking with Argos: we could control unhappiness by running some Scientists initially, 2-pop whipping a Worker, and 3-pop whipping a Settler later. I'm not sure of the exact build order, but working Plains Hills should be a last resort to control unhappiness (if it, e.g., speeds an Odeon or unit by one turn, that's ok).