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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Nice to see you enjoy that dry little island of yours :)
     
  2. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Working an unimproved Fish for 1 turn isn't so bad. It would grow to size 2 at the same time (22/22F).

    My choice, though, would be to move the Settler to the western Hill and then move 1E on the following turn:

    Spoiler :

    This would delay the city by 1 turn, but the move might reveal a hidden seafood resource while allowing the Sparta Work Boat to catch up. The risk of losing another food source in a GP farm justifies exploring and delaying the city.

    Shipping a Warrior is fine if the timing works out with the Galley (needs to be 2S1W of Sparta on T83).

    Sure, but use Argos to build the Worker. A Worker can be 2-pop whipped with 20H or 1H.

    Bear in mind that, if we are whipping Workers from size 5 ---> 3 or Settlers from size 6 ---> 3, we will run 1–2 Scientists at sizes 4 and 5, so will not work the Plains Hills for more than a handful of turns. A 3-pop Settler whip @ size 6 only needs 10/100H.

    I'm not sure why the Granary in Argos would be delayed? You are still 1-pop whipping with 30H at size 3.

    We could skip roading the Gems if it helps set up Deer/Gems or Corn faster.

    Can you chop a Granary in Corn first? A Granary offers +3F while improving the Corn contributes +2F.
     
  3. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Oh!
    I didn't think of those 2 things.
    Yes, that certainly sounds like a way better plan. :thumbsup:
    As near as I can calculate, the whip overflow from the settler is enough produce a workboat 1 turn after settler.
    The fish would be settled 2 turns after Whale+Fish would be founded.

    I was talking about the Athens settler getting the granary 1 turn earlier in Corn City, not Argos.
    Clarified the whole paragraph to be more clear. :o

    Mmm, I don't think that would speed up the corn improvement.
    Would still be a worker-turn short.
    I'll check again.
     
  4. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    OMG, Kaitzilla! :goodjob:

    I guess you are into this turn-set. :D
    I could take the next one since I can't test much over work days and I see that you are a bit civfanatical.
    I am going to England in 10 days. If you think that we can both play up to that point, you can take the set. If not, please let me. :)

    Regarding Corn site. I change to 1W. Didn't realize that was 2 tiles river in the West.

    I am sorry that I cannot keep up with micro discussion but it's Tuesday.
     
  5. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    The civ bug bit me ya. :)

    No worries, we still have 2 1/2 months left.
    I'll take the turnset after you then.
    Enjoy Old Blighty when you get there. :cool:

    Micro discussions never make sense to me unless I've played the previous turnset.
    Or, I've played with the test game a while and found something I liked and want to argue lovingly convince the team to adopt.

    I've got a good feeling about Alphabet in the next 10 turns.
    Mansa is financial:gold: and coastal so he ought to get that for us soon.

    This will be my 2nd game ever where Construction got teched before Alphabet.
    The mapmaker did a good job stacking the deck for us to make agonizing choices on multiple levels.
     
  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Dropping by...

    I wonder how Mansa is behaving for other teams. He could very well try wonder-whoring and that changes the game a LOT. That being said, I think ours is pretty good, minus the no-Alphabet ;)

    I feel useless. Not much time, sorry :(
     
  7. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Note taken: Likes agony
     
  8. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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  9. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Try to evaluate the issue from a wider angle. The loss from the unhappiness in Argos is the yield from the 4th citizen for 1 turn: 2F2C. What's the cost of the delay of the settlement of another city because of the delay of the galley? In any case, that's more.

    Without running the actual test, I don't know how many turns could be saved if we send the galley toward the Fish/Whale island immediately. Whether to send the settler from Athens or Sparta needs careful tests. We need to consider the worker availability (specially for the Corn site) and the easy part - the earliest turn (average) of settling both the Corn site and Fish/Whale site.
     
  10. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Galley movement will be tied to Settler production, either being (A) 2SW of Athens on T81 w/ 1 movement point; (B) 2S 1W of Sparta on T83, w/ 2 movement points; or (C) 2S 1W of Sparta on T84, w/ 2 movement points.

    We could, e.g., ship the Sheep fogbuster back to the island and reshuffle our spawnbusters (slight risk of barbs spawning while this happens). This would let the Galley be 2SW of Athens on T81, with 1 movement point remaining.

    Earlier Corn will delay Whale/Fish, and vice versa.

    If Athens produces the Whale/Fish Settler, then we'd need to figure out whether Sparta should produce a WB before the Settler (i.e. work the Gems @ size 3 > the Lake).

    A WB before a Settler in Sparta delays City #7, but contributes +3FPT to Whale/Fish and would (I think?) let us scout Whale/Fish island in advance, speeding the settling of this city by 1 turn. The delay to City#7 is bad if Workers could all be ready to chop a Granary and then improve the Corn, but ok if they're not.
     
  11. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Sorry for no more text but I am waking up in 5 hours so:

    Spoiler :



    T80 Corn city
    T85 Fish-whale (without exploring for more food)
    T87 Deer city
    T90 Horse city
    T91 Northern fish city

    +2 workers, connected gems 1N of Corinth for potential trade

    I wouldn't go for deer-gems or deer+forests, whatever we decide much before this. If Willem is threatened unexpectedly fast, we can unload fish-whale settler and settle in tundra or horse site and gift it to Willem. Not the best solution but he will survive in that worst case scenario.

    Athens could live without southern mine since I didn't use it much and those worker turns could be transfered to the Corn city and Deer.
     

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  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Did you use my latest test save here?

    Unless there are more convincing arguments for setting the Deer site in your way, I'll keep my original choice.

    Maybe we should determine the locations and settling order of the cities 1st.

    I don't feel of going for MC ourselves, not only that we have very good chance of trading it after Music and CS, but also those hammers invested into forges can be used for units. We are likely to have OR and religion to save the hammer cost at that time.
     
  13. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I'm also strongly in favor of the Gems/Deer city, which would need to be settled first. Kaitzilla's Granary management in this city looked very good to me from the overview pics.

    We should confirm this one way or the other.

    Some general thoughts from looking at your save:

    • Mansa will get MC for his UB and the Colossus, and Forges always end up delaying wars. So I also think we should ignore this tech.

    • Libraries > Odeon in Corinth, Thebes, and Argos.

    • Corinth shouldn't need an Odeon before any Catapult war.

    • In Knossos, don't grow beyond size 2 if there are no improved tiles besides the Corn. Put 1 chop into a Worker earlier on and then whip (your 700BC save has 2 Forests being chopped for 60H @ size 3, and the city has no whip anger. Not sure where the 2nd chop is coming from, though :confused:).

    • We shouldn't need a second Galley yet, but maybe I'm wrong.

    • Use Scientists to help control growth and excessive production in Argos (excessive production means putting hammers into a Worker or Settler that can't be shipped to the mainland). It's fine to stagnate here @ size 5 while running two Scientists and waiting for a Galley.

    • Sparta is dangerously close to producing our next Great Person in the 600BC save (120/200 :gp:).

    • Fish City is a drag on Worker turns, so don't try to settle this yet. When we do try, the WB should come from Corinth or Argos.
     
  14. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    @shakabrade

    I hope that you could complete your turn set before going to England.:) As what you suggested in the pm, I always enjoy a fast pace and smooth game. If you feel your way is better, try to convince the team with tests or a math model. If there's no further argument, solve them by calling votes like what I did in my turn set. We are friendly with each other as a team, I don't mind of going any way as long as it follows the team consensus. It's your (active player)'s responsibility to stir everyone's active participation and push forward the game. If we don't want to rush this long game in the end, we should not entangle on one issue for too long time.

    Try to explain further why I disagree with MC:

    If we want to research a tech ourselves, we should evaluate whether the gain is better than the cost of tech if this tech is available of trade in short time. With Mansa in game and he is going to tech very fast with great land (6 cities already and coastal cities), MC should be available for trade before AD even in the worst case. What's the gain from the early MC then? I saw that 3 cities started forges ~T90 in your test, which means that you probably could have around 4 cities gaining forge bonus (hammers) for around 20 turns. Those bonus (imagine that average 6 turns to whip a settler to gain 22.5H, a city could gain 70H in 20 turns and that's the best case if the happy cap supports) are far from enough to beat the cost of MC (~500C), delaying of the war, and potential bonus from OR. Unless playing with a industrial leader, MC is rarely a choice of researching by ourselves. MC and Forges are too expensive.
     
  15. Yamps

    Yamps Deity

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    Just to chip in against MC and forges as well, that's a clear no. I never build them so early.

    Personally, I'm not sure on other issues though. What are the merits of settling the Deer spot before Corn or other way around? I'm also too busy over the week so I haven't followed all the micro details. :mischief:

    Anyway, I hope shakabrade has more time now to address all of this and to get us moving again. :)
     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    N Fish city is not that bad. It has a fish and a farm and forests to complete WB, Granary and LH. It has a Fish and a farm and is very whippable. Corinth could build WB for it though. Also, that settler can take some other site if we find an Iron site before that and postpone settling for instance Corn city.





    I agree with you. I expect us to have IW and maybe a Monarchy until T91. We'll have an Iron or copper from trade and will produce units. T91 is very far. It is simply a test of overall state of the empire. Odeons can be catapults or even skipped with earlier Monarchy, Libraries can be units, hammers in Forges can be units (but no Forges :)). Road network brings units closer to battlefield, Galley from Corinth allows flexibility to Argos and Thebes production and flexibility is good.

    I think this T91 save shows flexibility and fast settling.

    Regarding GPeople, is possibility for a GM in Athens such a problem?
    Corinth and Thebes can handle a whip with +7 and +8 food.
    I see a use for GM later with huge maintenance costs after a successful war and some peaceful settling.
     
  17. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Merits are only +2 trade routes, IMO and I value hammers more at the moment, simply because of the war. It won't get settled by anyone and gems don't exist for us until Amsterdam falls and gems get improved. Also, the point is to chop it out and we won't have available workforce without sacrificing Corn site, which is a good and close to battlefield production site. If we settle deer or deer+gems after, it can get dedicated choppers who completed their tasks in the corn city and don't have to go back. They can then move and chop Utrecht once we capture it and after they chop 10 forests in Deer.

    Edit:
    Also, workers staying closer to our core at the beginning are closer to the potential Iron popping in our borders.
     
  18. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    An idea:

    Our tests lack a clear function of goal at the moment. There is a possibility that we will get IW and an Iron in our borders, Iron close to our borders and grab it with a settler and also that we will get a copper from a trade with Mansa. So, it is very probable that we will have some metal before T91.

    So, let's simply try to put up a stack in our tests and a quickest attack date without sacrificing too much.

    If you agree, there are still some questions:

    - when do we get metal? (and introduce it in to our test games too)
    - stack composition?
    - barracks, if any, where?
     
  19. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    The hammers argument amounts to 2 Forests before the DOW and 1 Forest after we have captured Utrecht:

    Spoiler :





    Shaka ring 1 and 2 will be chopped after Utrecht is captured. Shaka ring 1 will belong to Utrecht regardless of whether we settle the Deer or Gems; Shaka ring 2 would belong to us before the DOW with Deer City, and after the DOW with Gems City.

    The Deer site will necessitate building another Settler to claim the Gems, which costs a further 100H. Your T91 save also demonstrates the problem of finding spare Worker turns.

    If your mind is still not made up by the economic (here / here) and hammer arguments, I would put the vote to the team so that we can move ahead.

    -----
    The aims of this turn set should be to determine how to settle:

    The order of Corn and Fish/Whale are TBD by testing. We also need to have an "ideal" plan for gifting Willem a Sheep city, and one or two "emergency" plans like in your test.

    There isn't any need to assume we have or don't have metal yet, because the PPP now can easily incorporate Barracks or Catapult builds. Try to lay the groundwork for the next player(s) to produce the stack.

    A Great Scientist isn't pressing, but Argos is unhappy and running Great Scientists will mean that we don't need a second Galley. Remember that, even if Argos squeaks past Sparta and produces the 2nd Great person, Sparta will still have ~196/300 :gp: in a Great Prophet. In 25 turns, it will have 296/300. 25 turns after that, 396/400, and so on. Since we will not want to enter Caste System soon, we will need to run Scientists sooner or later.

    I don't know which cities will need Barracks (I mentioned this somewhere earlier) but Sparta and Athens will. Corinth might not. I'm not sure about Argos or Thebes either.

    ----

    I am going to bed. Others will comment I'm sure. :)

    Good night. :sleep:
     
  20. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Good night, Dosh The Owl! :)
     

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