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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    shakabrade, why don't you post your best test run, pictures, and the corresponding PPP? That way others can provide feedback and you can amend your plan if their comments are good. As the active player, it's your responsibility to advance the game and solicit comments. We have stalled this past week because of a misconception about Willem that could have been solved by opening the game or calling a vote. We are a friendly group and are all happy to provide feedback, but without a test or PPP we can't make progress as a team.

    Posts #712, #716, #717, #718, and #719 supply good information and discussion, which could help shape your initial PPP. After that, everyone can provide suggestions or support.
     
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I think the team is starting to converge on a micro plan, but the micro is really hard! :cry:

    Barracks in Deer+Gems? You'll cry if Shaka gobbles the city up. :lol:
    Sure you don't want 1 extra unpromoted catapult instead?
    I suppose a barracks would be ok there.

    No barracks in Athens?
    Maybe it could build a settler and work more cottages.
    Where would the settler go? We are going to run out of good spots to settle soon.
    I think Athens should focus on whipping war units.
    It isn't that far from the front and I don't want to rely on only Deer+Gems, Corn City, and Sparta for military units.

    Worker in Thebes?
    I'm not sure our 2nd galley would be able to transport it if we made one, but I'll check.
    **Edit**
    Nope, worker ends up being stranded. Argos needs the galley more.
    Spoiler :

    Thebes has almost no regular production and can't really produce warrior/galley/worker correctly if we 1-pop whip a fishing boat.
    I think we should strive to completed the Libaray+Odeon combo and line up a 2-pop whip for the galley to take over to the mainland T94-T95.
    Working 2 scientists and occasionally 2-pop whipping something good when the galley is near is Thebes strongest play right now in my opinion.
     
  3. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    This my best run so far.

    Barracks in Deer got past 20:hammers: by accident. The idea is to whip them and OF into units in all cities with racks.


    Cities:

    Spoiler :
















    Empire:


    Spoiler :





    Sparta could whip a worker for Horse city if we happen to get that luxury and don't have to settle for Iron or gift city to Willem. That settler is from Athens.


    Please let me know if you like it or not. I have written a small part of micro and should look at autosaves to recreate it.

    Regarding troop movement, this test is very simple. Warrior from Corinth.

    Some GPPs were added to Athens.

    @Team

    I am sorry for slow pace but I promise you that this is the maximum time I can squeeze at the moment. I didn't put bad attempts before because they waste RL time and there were much better tests out there. This one, however, I like and am looking forward to your comments.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Shakebrade's test brings up 2 good points.

    1) Research to Music or build gold at Aesthetics?
    2) Produce a Settler for Horse City?


    I'm not sure.
    I don't think anyone anyone will be teching Aesthetics for us anytime soon.
    It seems kind of obscene to just build up to +1000:gold:
    I'm starting to wish we had teched Math and bulbed Alphabet if we don't get Alpha in the next 10 turns. :lol:

    A settler for Horse City is nice, but I'm not sure we have a worker to support it.
    And it is a bit dangerous to settle down there with only warriors to protect it.


    It's interesting Athens managed 2 cottages and all 5 workers ended up in the north. :crazyeye:
    And Deer+Gems got the earlier granary too!
    How on earth did you manage that?, the workerfu

    I also really like the Library in Corinth.
    The city has 2 gems and needs a library to make the most of them.

    Thebes only has Granary on T88. :sad:
    It must have made a workboat and a galley/settler.

    Dr. Kossin is going to have a colleague soon!


    I think our best bet is to scheme up a 5 turn PPP that everybody loves.
    Even the best plan could change with Alphabet or Shaka going crazy.
    As long as everyone loves the idea of Deer+Gems ->Corn City-> and Whales+Fish, all the schemes should look similar.
     
  5. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    I don't intend a worker there as soon as possible, but a worker has higher priority than Lib and Odeon in Thebes as shown in your test as it helps to grow a cottage for capital and worker forces are still short during this stage.

    It's fine for a long session, we can always pause if something unusual happens, especially when Alphabet is available. Alphabet reveals the location of Iron, does not seen to affect the micro much. Not sure how Shaka could go crazy, William won't be dead in 15 turns.
     
  6. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Ugh. The forum ate my first reply. :sad:

    Basically, the save looks good. :) It will be easier to post suggestions after the PPP, so go ahead and write this. To T88 sounds good to me. I don't see much altering our plans during that time, and if something comes up it should be easy to adapt.

    My thoughts, before seeing the PPP:

    • I don't like running Great Scientists in Athens. We won't produce an early Great Person here, because a high % Great Merchant won't offer us much before we have a Galley free to reach the ToA (which isn't yet built and might not be accessible). However, later on, we might want a Great Merchant (trade mission or Golden Age) and, at that time, we will end up cursing the :gp: contamination.

    • I'm not a big fan of the Library in Corinth. It would contribute +7 BPT while running the slider @100%, which is not that much (e.g. another city would contribute +11CPT constantly). How about building a Work Boat ---> Catapult?

    • Is it better to settle Fish than Horse? It is easy to produce a WB in Corinth, and two Workers are free on the Corn on T89. Horse is a front line city, but Fish will be easier to set up now than in 5-10 turns (2 Workers chop the Granary before the borders expand, and the WB should already be in place).

    • In Thebes, change the build order: Granary ---> Work Boat. Work the Furs before the Granary completes, and the Crabs after (regrow in 2 turns). The WB will still reach Argos in time.

    • A Lighthouse in Thebes is pressing. Consider that this offers +1FPT whenever we work the Crab, +1FPT at size 3 (unless the capital abandons Crabs and Furs) and that the capital shouldn't work a Crab on any turns that it produces a Worker or Settler (only contributes 5HPT, which offers far less than the +4FPT or +5FPT Thebes would receive while growing).

    • Try to produce the Galley in Athens (better than running Scientists; lets Thebes focus on a LH after the Granary/WB).

    • Look into shipping a Warrior from the mainland to Thebes (I think Kaitzilla did it well, but can't remember the details).

    • 1-pop a Barracks in Deer/Gems on the turn that the city is due to grow from size 2 ---> size 3. This is 1F more efficient than whipping at size 3 (and 2F more than @ size 4) and will start the "whip anger" countdown.
    ^^^^ I know this will affect the 2-pop Barracks whip that you'd planned. But we can 2-pop whip an Odeon in the Catapult is past 20H, because Deer/Gems will need an Odeon before we declare war. After we regrow from the Odeon, we're going to be at ~T98, and can 2-pop whip Catapults into metal units (if we don't have metal units by then, it is because the mapmaker and Mansa have jointly screwed us).

    I'm fine with binary research on Aesthetics after Construction.

    For Music, that's some way off, but I don't think we will want to risk going to Civil Service and switching into Bureaucracy before going to Music. Moreover, we hadn't met Mansa when we were considering this path, and we didn't expect another AI to snipe CoL before us. So at least 2 AI on this map have good research potential.

    The main reason I don't want to stop research for long is that I don't like stockpiling gold much. If Shaka demands a spare resource, we can give him a resource. If Shaka demands 200G, we're going to say no and spend the next 10 turns panicking. :run:

    @Kaitzilla

    Spoiler :
    Sorry, you're right. Sparta does produce its Settler on T85 in my test. :blush:

    Nice catch on the way I roaded the Corn city square. :D This is another reason why Corn before Whale/Fish is better.
     
  7. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Kaitzilla's test in post 716 and 717 was well illustrated with screenshots of every turn. It's the closest template for the final PPP with some minor changes.

    After LH, Thebes starts a worker @size4 and then whip immediately.
    Athens does not need a barrack, grows on a cata and then start a settler @size6

    Plus some micro adjustments that Doshin mentioned. It's the easiest way to finalize the PPP.
     
  8. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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  9. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Looking at your pics, shakabrade, I realized something which works out well after your set:

    Spoiler :

    13HPT in a Settler is great. :D 13H* 3 = 39/100H, which is still a 3-pop whip.

    We can build later Settlers for 3 turns, and whip on the 4th for +46H of OF.

    The city will then take ~4 turns to regrow to size 6, with +2HPT from the city center going into the current build. 50H = Barracks/Catapult/Galley/1.666 WBs.

    So, every 8 turns, the city could produce a Settler and unit and keep unhappiness mostly in check (we could slow build a Worker for 4 turns @ 15HPT every now and then, which would eliminate unhappy citizens altogether).

    ---

    You will be fine going through security with a beard, as long as you don't inform the customs officers that you are coming to the UK because you want to take out a student loan which you don't plan to replay while claiming a job seeker's allowance and demanding treatment on the NHS. Any one of these things is worse than suggesting that you might, e.g., one day join ISIS. ;)
     
  10. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    This is the best so far. Much better than the last test.

    Please look at the save. The only city micro which could theoretically be improved is Sparta's. Other cities are all tied up.

    I have avoided Odeons to the last point as they don't contribute unles you reach happy cap. We might get more happy from trade and postpone them even longer.

    There is also 5T PPP which leads to these results on my papers. I'll try to write it down during lunch break at work.


    Cities:

    Spoiler :















    Misc:

    Spoiler :







     

    Attached Files:

  11. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    The save looks good. Three questions/suggestions:

    (1) Can we road the Cow?

    Spoiler :

    (2) I think we can speed the Fish City by a turn:

    Spoiler :


    Skip the road on the Corn (unless, in the real game, we need this for a trade) and don't move a Worker to the Forest quite so early.

    The Granary should still be chopped before the border pop, and we can work the Fish one turn sooner.

    (3) Thebes micro:

    Spoiler :

    I would aim to:

    1. Put all OF before T88 into the Library.
    2. Deposit a Warrior directly into Thebes on T88 (at EOT, Galley is 1E of the Crabs)
    3. Start a Worker on T88.
    4. Whip on T89.

    This should let us build a Worker and a Library and postpone the Odeon. A Worker is good because it can improve the tile 1NW of Thebes, and then be deposited in Athens (T94).

    I think the Galley can afford a 1-tile detour, because it shouldn't delay either one of Horse-Deer-Fur or Sheep-Gift.
     
  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    First of all, our next major goal is to assemble a SOD, and the intermediate goal for the next session is to found a solid base for military build.

    I mentioned 4 sites to be settled peacefully, Deer, Corn, Horse/Iron are all for military goal, only the Fish/Whale site is for economical consideration -- providing domestic trade routes and GP farm. The north fish is not in the list . The drawback of that extra settler is

    • It decreases the productivity of Sparta, which is one of the major military site.
    • It draws extra worker force. One may argue that a worker is ready to help, however, what about the settler from Argos. One worker is not enough to help 2 cities in the same time. I don't mean that we should not settle north Fish site, Argos will be responsible for the Fish and Sheep site next with 1 worker to help.
    Take a carefully look at the empire in Kaitizilla's save, you'll find that it met the goal best. Also note the location of the workers, there's one worker remaining in south.
     
  13. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Ya, good points all. Besides looking at Kaitzilla's pics, some suggestions:

    Corinth could skip the Work Boat and build a Catapult or Worker before the Library.

    Likewise, Thebes could contribute 1 Catapult before it starts its Library (this would be shipped over with the Worker ~T94, so will reinforce rather than join any initial invasion... and is more debatable for that reason).

    The Worker from Thebes miiiight suffice for the capital. But it's not ideal:

    Spoiler :
    The Athens happy cap should be @7 after the Odeon.

    If it whips an Odeon on T89 ---> size 3, I guess it'll take ~2 turns to grow per pop point (T91 = size 4; T93 = size 5, T95 = size 6; T97 or T98 = size 7; then delay size 8 until ~T101).

    Size 6 (~T95) = Deer x1, riverside Cottages x2, Corn x1, Crab x1, Fur x1.
    Size 7 (~T97/8) = Deer x1, riverside Cottages x3, Corn x1, Fur x1, island Cottage x1.

    The problem is that Thebes would ideally work the Fur and island Cottage at sizes 2 and 3, while Athens should focus on developing Grassland Cottages that other cities can't work.

    Thebes could work 2x Crabs and run 1-2 Scientists at size 3/4, starting from ~T98. But, ultimately, 1-2 fewer Cottages are being worked on the Grass tiles west of Athens, and Thebes is not a super-food city like Argos (we only need 1 city running specialists right now).

    ----

    If Argos builds the Fish Settler, it should have enough OF to produce a Work Boat (12/100H, whip = 18OF... let's say 4 turns to regrow to size 6, so the WB probably needs 4H invested in it before. It's not a problem to drop Scientists when building the Settler, to increase :hammers: OF if necessary). So it's fine to drop the WB build in Corinth.

    If we lack Workers for Fish, we could produce the Willem gift city first, or slow build a Worker @ size 5 or 6 in Argos, which can be shipped to the Fish site and pre-chop 2 Forests.

    ---

    Worker thoughts:

    You could delay sending a Worker back to Deer/Gems. We will probably attack from the area around this city. Last minute chops will complete while units from other cities reach the battlefront. Also, Deer-Gems can work 1-2 Grass Forests at sizes 3 and 4, which are more useful here than Cottages.

    The Farm 2E of Knossos can wait until T89. Whipping from size 2 ---> size 1 gains +1F, which offsets the -1F from the delayed Farm. The overall loss is -1H, but the whip timer starts 1 turn sooner, which is probably better TBH.

    If we have 5 Workers on T88, then maybe have 1 headed toward or already improving Athens. 4 Workers can be at Corn. Try to chop 1 riverside Grassland ASAP, so that we can get 1 Farm set up before 2 Workers depart (2 riverside Grasslands are needed in total).

    2 Workers need to be in place to improve the Horse tile on the turn that city is settled. They will need ~5 turns to set up the Pasture and Granary. After that, growth is so slow that 1 Worker can improve the Deer while the other chops Forests.



    ^^^ these are all suggestions, and are not meant to be prescriptive. :)
     
  14. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    Let's not forget that we'll likely have to gift one city to Willem to keep him alive.
     
  15. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    It's likely, but not absolutely. The settler from Argos in a few turns can be used for gifting if needed.

    One more reason of keeping the productivity in Sparta is that it could whip a settler fast enough to grab a Iron site, if the Iron locates beside the Horse.:evil:
     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I agree that Kaitzilla set the path for us and met all the goals but also he stopped at early micro and his cities are underdeveloped (but much better than my previous attempts). I have stolen a lot from him and Doshin and have come up with the most productive micro so far.

    Who knows what is ahead of us, the game is gonna tell us what is better in the next turns. Planning for 15T ahead is very long at this point in the game. If we see that suggestions are better, we can easily switch. Worker micro is more sensitive and I wouldn't like to dabble with it but if Iron is close, it is logical that we'll have to sacrifice some other improvements. I may be leaning to Thebes worker after all, because it adds to flexibility and covers a bit of South.

    Indeed. N Fish can settle on Kaitzilla's spot if need be, or we can gift settler from Argos if we get a bit more time for that.
     
  17. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    @Shakabrade
    I'd suggest you clam down, read all the posts carefully, and then think about them carefully. Please don't skip or ignore other playes' effort, especially existing tests, which contained huge works from others.

    This was a frustrating experience for me.

    Most of Doshin's comments were repeat of the points that were already in Kaitzilla's test, Doshin, and my previous comments.

    Kaitzilla's test was already very close to final PPP, the 2 minor changes that I suggested and some micros that Doshin might come out takes no more than half an hour.

    This depends on where you put those food and production. Putting hammers on something that not in need is one of the biggest micro mistake. Moreover, I don't know how you come out the conclusion that your test generated more food and production.

    First, you should check the save and screenshots from Kaitzilla post seriously before presenting this argument. There's 1 more pop and a almost completed cata in Sparta in his save.

    Have you counted the other builds and populations. All the workers crams in north is not a efficient way of worker micro. That's why I mention this specially

    Just quote to repeat

    I have rarely missed the bright points, not matter other players or myself being the active player. Given my own turn session as an example.

    Immediately started test GLH when Yamps, Doshin, and Kaitzilla mentioned it.
    Even whipping a wonder violates my common sense, I feel the rightness instantly when Doshin suggested it, and test it.
    Keep Yamps's Construction opinion in mind even after the consensus of CoL was reached and paused for revision when there were more information available.

    That says, I really never care about whether my original ideas are the best and I am always happy to see other good suggestions. Even for opinions that I disagree 100%, I will still try to reply and convince until the last minute as everyone wants to be respected.
     
  18. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    I'm sure that shakabrade is doing his best, it's just that real time constraints are killing him so it's easy to miss stuff. I'm also just skimming at the moment, since some boring matters like ~100 tests to grade are taking too much of my time right now. :(

    @shakabrade

    I'd grab a nice cold one [emoji481] and take it from there nice and slowely. ;)

    hmm, I might as well go on and take my own advice! :D
     
  19. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Worker micro. General comments (you don't need to write a response to any of this):

    Spoiler :
    Sorry, I meant T88.

    For every turn that we work a Grassland Farm, we gain +1FPT. However, whipping @ size 2 > size 3 saves 1F. So whipping away a Grass Farm on the turn that a city is due to grow is basically neutral.

    Normally in this situation we'd grow to size 3, work a Grass Forest for ~3 turns (about +3H), and then whip away the Forest when we are due to grow to size 4. However, since this city has zero whip anger, you rightly chose to start this by whipping earlier (T88).

    We could start the anger counter even earlier by whipping on T87, from size 2 ---> 1. Compared to whipping on T88, no food whatsoever is lost (just 1C from the riverside tile). And, looking at your save, the Farm was complete on T87. So the Farm is built 1 turn sooner than necessary.

    That's not a problem, but perhaps the Corn city could a chop 1 turn sooner? Or perhaps this Worker can go to Athens and another Worker take over?

    It may lead to nothing, but I was trying to list very small suggestions that may or may not help.

    Yep.

    This would be my rough plan:

    (A) Chop Granaries in the new cities... improve the Corn ASAP (after the Granary has been chopped, obv.)... farm the riverside Gems/Deer tile by T88... lay down any partial improvements... all the stuff you've done.​

    If there are five Workers around the Corn, the next two goals need to be considered in tandem:

    (B.i.) Both riverside Forests must be chopped. Both tiles must be Farmed. One Worker per chop (4 turns) means that the chops must be begun quite early. Multiple Workers per Farm (1–5 turns, total) means that you can begin the Farming quite late. Chop the tile 1S2W before the tile 2S1W.

    (B.ii.) Two Workers must head to the Horse, ready to start building a Pasture on the very turn the Settler arrives.​

    (B.ii.) is more important than (B.i.).

    Try to have the third farm finish on the turn that we grow to size 3. If this proves impossible, we can whip @ size 2, on the turn that we are due to grow (for the same reason as Deer-Gems).

    Then:

    (C) One of the three Workers goes to Athens, to build Cottages.
    (D) Two of the three Workers chop two Forests.​

    Then:

    (E) One of the two Workers (2W of Corn-City) goes to Deer-Gems.
    (F) One of the two Workers move to the Forest 2S2E of Corn City, or helps with Fish City.​

    This is what I'd aspire to, and then I'd see how the reality of the game squares with this.

    ------

    Sparta should be at size 5 on T86, not size 4 on T88:

    Spoiler :

    It will still produce a WB, Settler, and will have a Catapult largely complete.

    -----

    Now that you know how to settle 3 of the 4 new cities, these are the crucial points you need to change:

    • Sparta management must be improved.
    • Horse-Deer City must be settled before the Fish.
    • Two Workers must begin a Pasture on the very turn this city is settled.
    • We must have 2 Catapults finished, or nearly finished, in two backwater cities. Thebes and Corinth work best. 2 Catapults can join 3 Catapults from the frontline cities... which basically constitutes the siege part of our initial invasion
    • Thebes must 2-pop whip a Worker on T90. OF completes the Catapult.
    Most of these points contribute towards our the secondary goal, i.e. "to lay the groundwork for the next player(s) to produce the stack" or improving the capital.

    ----

    SGOTM is fun when we make progress, and work as a team towards the best result we can manage, and that is why we sign up. But the active player has to work at his or her turn set, carefully consider the situation/other players' posts, and sacrifice some time to testing and achieving a result the other players support. The team also gives great and generous feedback, which should help ease this process.

    One player will only play 1/6th of the turns, and the rest of the time they can enjoy watching others play and contribute towards any discussion if we are able. We also post far less than the other top two teams, which saves a lot of time.

    Anyway, I really don't want to be negative. But we are now 11 days into a relatively straightforward set (straightforward, in that we all agree on the goals). I hope to see a PPP and some turns played soon.

    ----

    edit:

    @Yamps

    Spoiler :
    These kill me too. A stack of essays/papers is usually worse though. :lol:
     
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Shakabrade's test game had an extra settler and workboat already moving up towards the Fish City spot along with a worker to chop forests, so in empire expansion it was ahead.

    I think we are almost there.
    15 turns of micro is a lot of work to plan!

    I've looked the game over again considering everyone's plans.

    1) Duckweed wants:
    No barracks in Athens
    Barracks in Knossos and Mycenae (Deer+Gems City and Corn City)
    Worker in Thebes

    2) Doshin wants:
    More growth in Sparta
    1-pop barracks whips in Knossos and Mycenae
    Road cow and road to Fish City in the north

    3) Shakabrade wants:
    +1 settler faster!
    Share Athens wheat more with Corinth.

    Considering all these things, I turned Corinth into an extra worker pump.
    Here's the new T88 test game I got.
    Spoiler :

    The test game played until T92:
    Empire has 8 cities, 7 workers, 2 settlers moving to settle new cities, 2 barracks, 1 catapult, and lots more catapults coming.
    Spoiler :

    If you play it until Turn 92, you can see that Fish City will be settled T93 with 1 worker ready to chop into it and a workboat on the way.
    Horse+Whale city will be settled T94 and have 2 workers 2N1E of the city that can start the horse pasture T95 or T96 depending on how many roads we want.
    The Thebes worker will have the cottage complete and be unloaded into Athens along with the catapult on Turn 95.
    This worker can spend the rest of the game improving our capital if needed.

    Also, if Deer+Gems gets 1 worker, then it is a mistake to work plains forest for 3 turns.
    It turns out to be -3:food: compared to grassland forest.

    I've got a good feeling it will make the team happy, so I'll write out the city+worker micro longhand.
     

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