SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

[Doshin]

I don't mind suboptimal micro if it benefits the macro. In SGOTM19, Duckweed, you'll remember that we switched the capital's Copper to a Grassland Forest for a turn. This was inefficient, but meant that we could produce 2 Axemen in 2 turns via a 2-pop whip.

If the extra in Sparta let us put an invasion stack together sooner, then working this tile is fine with me.

Since Sparta is a front-line city with a Barracks, I value production over commerce more than usual. So a Lake > GMine = Coast.


@Kaitzilla

My general advice. You know the specifics of this turn far better than anyone.

Work a GMine > Coast if this will complete a slow-build (e.g. a Catapult goes from 42H ---> 50/50H). Earlier in the set, gaining 3H from the GMine let us 1-pop whip a Granary sooner (= 31/60H) and let us complete a Work Boat 1-turn sooner (22H ---> 30/30H) and all of this let us complete the Whale/Fish Settler 3–4 turns sooner.

Work the Coast > GMine if this will let us whip 1-turn sooner, or if the earlier hammers are superfluous for producing the initial stack. In the long-term, this is more efficient.​

Getting 1 more unit to the front line by T100 would be very useful. Getting 1 more unit to the front line by T105 is less important.

In the end, go with what you think works best.

----

edit: if we want to stop the WB build in Argos, we lose 5H.

However, I think we can grow to size 6 far sooner (about 5–8 turns, I could check).

The Settler for Fish City will be produced and settled as soon as possible with both set ups (this is tied to Galley movement and Worker availability).

The next Settler would be quicker if we ignore the WB.

Either way is fine with me. I agree that it is a struggle to force out the WB before the hammers decay.

 

[Duckweed]

If working on the mine tile, how many turns you could save for Sparta grow into unhappiness? And how many more unit could you produce from Sparta? Will this 1 more unit affect the war result?

We should have more than 20 units by T105 and I don't think 1 extra unit from Sparta matters.

@Doshin

You probably forget about what's the real debating issue. It's whether to mine the grassland hill in Corinth and then lead to the tile management in Corinth and Sparta.

I don't think it's worth to sacrifice a few worker turns and working suboptimal tiles just to slow down the growth of Sparta into unhappiness for 1~2 turns.

What I have tried to prove is that GMine in Corinth is unnecessary.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If working on the mine tile, how many turns you could save for Sparta grow into unhappiness? And how many more unit could you produce from Sparta? Will this 1 more unit affect the war result?

We should have more than 20 units by T105 and I don't think 1 extra unit from Sparta matters.

@Doshin

You probably forget about what's the real debating issue. It's whether to mine the grassland in Corinth and then lead to the tile management in Corinth and Sparta.

I don't think it's worth to sacrifice a few worker turns and working suboptimal tiles just to slow down the growth of Sparta into unhappiness for 1~2 turns.

What I have tried to prove is that GMine in Corinth is unnecessary.

In latest test I started working the shared GMine in Sparta T95 instead of the lake.
Used the shared GMine constantly up until T110 when Sparta had to switch to settler.
It produced an extra war unit and more thanks to putting off settler for 5 turns. War units are Sparta's big purpose.

I'm sure if you try playing Sparta for 10-15 turns from this turn 95 test game, you will see the benefit of constantly working the shared GMine instead of lake.
Compare it to playing lake+coastal and you'll see the results side by side quickly.


The logic of lake >>>> GMine breaks down when the whips fall silent

 

[Duckweed]

How many turns that Corinth needs to work on the shared mine? I have no problem that working on the Gmine in Sparta than coastal tile, but not over lake tile as what you did in your original plan.

As I mentioned in the very early post, even working on an unimproved riverside grassland tile is not much worse than the Gmine in Corinth. Then what's the reason that you insist on mining the grassland hill? That's 3 worker turns.

 

[Kaitzilla]

How many turns that Corinth needs to work on the shared mine? I have no problem that working on the Gmine in Sparta than coastal tile, but not over lake tile as what you did in your original plan.

As I mentioned in the very early post, even working on an unimproved riverside grassland tile is not much worse than the Gmine in Corinth. Then what's the reason that you insist on mining the grassland hill? That's 3 worker turns.

If Sparta is going to monopolize the GMine starting T95, then Corinth having a GMine for itself is a good idea.
GMine lets Corinth build things starting T98 while Athens works Wheat.

Please let me build the GMine.

Doesn't Corinth grow into unhappiness if it whips the Worker after just 1 turn? I thought that was why we chose to stagnate on a Worker for an additional turn.

@Doshin Corinth would grow into unhappiness if it regrew to Size 4 in 3 turns with earlier worker whip.
The growth can be slowed down by working RiverFarm instead of Wheat an extra turn.
Part of the reason for slower worker whip was also to get catapult out T96 instead of T97 in case it was needed.

 

[Doshin]

Since we don't work the GMine over the Lake over the coming turns:

Sparta

T88 - Catapult; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake,GMine
T89 - Odeon; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake,GMine
T90 - Barracks; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake,GMine
T91 - Whip Barracks; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake
T92 - Catapult; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake
T93 - Whip Odeon; Crab,Cow,Lake
T94 - Swordsman; Crab,Cow,Gems,Lake​

...discussion about long-term micro in Sparta can wait.

----

Doesn't Corinth grow into unhappiness if it whips the Worker after just 1 turn? I thought that was why we chose to stagnate on a Worker for an additional turn. I remember that we were originally building an Odeon instead of a Worker here.

Partial improvements are also wasteful if they are not finished in good time. A GMine is fine when building Settlers/Workers. There are no free Workers around Corinth until after T110, so it is very likely that Corinth will produce another Worker ~T100.

 

[Duckweed]

If Sparta is going to monopolize the GMine starting T95, then Corinth having a GMine for itself is a good idea.
GMine lets Corinth build things starting T98 while Athens works Wheat.

Could you show me how Corinth is using the Gmine. I have shown you that T92/93 Corinth does not need to work on the Gmine. Let me prove Corinth does not need that improvement in the future.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Could you show me how Corinth is using the Gmine. I have shown you that T92/93 Corinth does not need to work on the Gmine. Let me prove Corinth does not need that improvement in the future.

Here is Corinth T98 in test game.

Spoiler :

So lovely.

Athens can keep the wheat and whip settler and regrow.
Sparta can work GMine 100% of the time.

And Corinth can build library until T103, maybe switch to worker then 2 pop whip (24/28) so it can regrow to Size 3 and overflow to finish library and start odeon.
The extra GMine lets Corinth build things instead of having to rely purely on whip.

...
Partial improvements are also wasteful if they are not finished in good time. A GMine is fine when building Settlers/Workers. There are no free Workers around Corinth until after T110, so it is very likely that Corinth will produce another Worker ~T100.

Ya.
The Corinth Worker produced on T95 should be chopping a Mycenae forest, not completing a farm for Corinth.
I still think it is worth 3 worker turns to make the GMine for Corinth.

 

[Duckweed]

@Doshin

A GMine is 1F3H, a coastal tile is 2F2C, a riverside grassland is 2F1C.

If we consider 1F= 2H, 2C>1H, then a coastal tile is better than GMine, which is only slightly better than a riverside grassland.

Therefore, Sparta could work on a coastal tile when Corinth is taking the shared GMine. It's hard to say how much is a worker turn worth, but should be more than 5H if we think about 4 worker turns to chop a forest.

A GMine is good when the city is building a wonder or producing a worker/settler.

Regarding Argos build, I don't know whether the OF from previous settler could speedup the next settler and whether it's easy to control the WB build before it starts to wear off the hammers. It seems to me too much trouble of producing a WB there. The WB for South islands can be supplied by either capital or Fur city.

How do you evaluate the worker turn?

@Kaitzilla

Why not start a worker on T97 , grow on T98 by taking the wheat and then whip a worker on T99 or grow 1 more turn and whip on T100, this worker can then finish the farm? This worker can be sent to Sparta and the horse city afterward.

 

[shakabrade]

Baaack!

Regarding GMine, I'd favor riverside Farm over GMine, and even riverside grassland (not improved) in every case since since it will be used more and GMine will have to be turned to Windmill at some point. Also, HR and/or some additional happy resource trade will come relatively soon and happy cap won't be that much of a problem, a case in which GMine doesn't have to be worked most of the time, if at all. We can reach unhappiness and recover some resources by building a worker and OF into a unit. Worker can then help with chopping the West and hammer output in the next 15T will probably be greater plus the worker turns saved by skipping the mine.

However, I have not played the test game and don't have the feeling of the game at moment and that is a huge minus to me.

Also, this discussion is probably not that important at this point. So, let's build GMine it and move forward.

Maybe it is better to say it like this: if Kaitzilla isn't convinced that GMine isn't the best option, and Doshin is also in favor GMine, then I'll trust you guys and vote for the GMine should the voting gets called for.

RL time is actually a civ resource and we can probably mitigate all the good work now with sloppiness in the late game.

 

[Kaitzilla]

@Kaitzilla

Why not start a worker on T97 , grow on T98 by taking the wheat and then whip a worker on T99 or grow 1 more turn and whip on T100, this worker can then finish the farm? This worker can be sent to Sparta and the horse city afterward.

We could, but then Corinth would be stuck at Size 2 for a long time.

Spoiler :

Corinth needs to be able to work Wheat at Size 4 for a turn usually before it whipping it.

 

[Duckweed]

We could, but then Corinth would be stuck at Size 2 for a long time.

Spoiler :

Corinth needs to be able to work Wheat at Size 4 for a turn usually before it whipping it.

@Kaitzilla

Why not start a worker on T97 , grow on T98 by taking the wheat and then whip a worker on T99 or grow 1 more turn and whip on T100, this worker can then finish the farm? This worker can be sent to Sparta and the horse city afterward.

I guess this solves the happy issue in both Corinth and Athens completely.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I guess this solves the happy issue in both Corinth and Athens completely.

It would work, but Corinth still feels stunted somehow without its own production source.
It takes an extra whip to get Odeon+Library done.
The GMine way gives us the 9th worker 2 turns later and GMine instead of Farm, but can produce Odeon naturally without whip so the city can be 1pop larger.

I want an extra GMine so we don't have to steal Spartas.
You want an extra farm so we don't have to steal Athens?

 

[Doshin]

We should whip the initial Worker after 1-turn in Corinth, I think, if we can avoid growing into unhappiness as Kaitzilla has said (i.e. whip T93, produce Worker on T94).

The Corinth Catapult looks like it will arrive too late to attack Willem, but too soon to attack Shaka. So I don't think that delaying this build by 1-turn will matter.

----

Whipping earlier should secure an additional turn of growth, or +2F. If you add +2F to the following screenshot:

Spoiler :

The newest Worker could improve the Farm (1/5 before it arrives) to complete on the turn that Corinth grows to size 3. In the mean time, we have worked the GMine for 2 turns while building 2 Workers (+4H overall). And I am 100% sure the GMine will be worked again before Machinery.

Whenever Thebes is at size 3/4, it will take 2–3 of the capital's improvements. Now that Thebes has a Granary and Lighthouse, the capital will work the Wheat and Grass Farm quite often. So it becomes increasingly difficult for Corinth to borrow these food tiles T90 onwards) without impacting Athens/Sparta.

After the newest Corinth Worker finishes the Farm (~T104), it can either help set up Fish City or improve/chop tiles to the east of Mycenae.

1 of the (Western) Mycenae Workers would then eventually go to help Horse City.

----

So, in short:

1. Whip the Worker in Corinth 1-turn sooner than in the PPP (medium preference)
2. Mine the GHill before putting 1-turn into a Grass Farm (weak preference)

And I will defer on point #2 to the player who takes over from Kaitzilla, since they will be the ones to play.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, will whip the worker in Corinth 1 turn sooner.
Will change Argos to build Wealth for 2 turns instead of Workboat.

Hang on, there's a forest 2N2W of Corinth that I forgot about that our T94 Corinth worker could chop T101.
I need to check if it solves my objections to Duckweed's farm.

**Edit**
Ya, if we chop the forest 2N2W of Corinth to complete the Odeon, the farm works out ok.

Spoiler :

I guess it's time for me to surrender. ^_^

PPP updated!

 

[Duckweed]

It would work, but Corinth still feels stunted somehow without its own production source.
It takes an extra whip to get Odeon+Library done.
The GMine way gives us the 9th worker 2 turns later and GMine instead of Farm, but can produce Odeon naturally without whip so the city can be 1pop larger.

I want an extra GMine so we don't have to steal Spartas.
You want an extra farm so we don't have to steal Athens?

No， I want to save 3 worker turns on an improvement that is going to be useful for long time, not a GMine that is rarely useful. A farm is much better than a GMine very soon as I believe that we will switch to HR no later than T105 unless Mansa starts CoL right before we start to push toward CS.

 

[Doshin]

Great. I am glad we are all on the same page.

Should we build a Market in Argos > Wealth? The Market would provide +2 with Furs and Whale, helps boost Merchant Specialists, and it's a long game...

An Aqueduct is another possibility (the happiness in the city causes so many issues, that I at least haven't considered any problems with Monarchy?). Harbor would solve these issues better, OFC.

I suggest these mostly because Argos has so few compared to food, and hammers invested in buildings last for 50 turns before they begin to decay.

No big deal either way. Green light to play from me.

 

[Kaitzilla]

A Marketplace might be worth it now that you mention it.
I forgot about whales.

It's a 5-pop whip though.
hmmm

Spoiler :

Kind of wish Argos had a mine

It seems too hard right now.
I think decay shows up sooner than 50 turns, but I'm not sure.
Will probably stick to building Wealth for 2 turns in Argos.

 

[Doshin]

I'm not suggesting that we 5-pop whip it. But I think we are likely to build a Market here within the next 50 turns (i.e. before any hammer decay), that hammers invested in economic infrastructure is a better investment than building Wealth (when there is no short-term tech target), and that this is a low city that needs several buildings.

The city won't whip any more buildings until we are in Organized Religion. We'll probably whip a Forge first and build one of a Market, Harbor, or Courthouse (or a University, since we're Philosophical) while growing.

 

[Duckweed]

Could you upload the test save? I feel easier by looking at the save or the final screenshot is fine as well. I hope it's not T95 v1.7.