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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    We need to research part of Astronomy at the moment, because MM can't access Gunpowder without Education or Guilds.

    Alternatively, we could make a super generous Paper (gift) ---> Printing Press + Education <----> Astronomy trade and Lib. Physics 2 turns later, with huge OF going into Communism. I think I'd be ok with this.

    With Paper + Astronomy, MM can pick Physics as his tech of choice, whether he has PP or not. But Education reveals the path to Economics (via Guilds ---> Banking), which he should prefer. He'd research Guilds + Banking for us, and we'd then snipe the free GM.
     
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    You rescued all 5 of our workers back from Willem. :goodjob:
    They have plenty to chop up there! :whipped:

    Duckweed has everything set up very nicely for whomever wishes to play next.


    The more I look, the more I see, the more I want to tech Nationalism. (2925:science:, Can almost get it done in 3 turns)
    We got the happy cap.
    We got a golden age coming in 3 turns.
    We got Galleons coming in 8 turns.
    We got 29 cities. :crazyeye:

    No AI but Mansa has Philosophy/Machinery hardly.
    So nobody else is gonna tech Guilds or Nationalism for us soon.

    Draft, draft, Draft, DRAFT!
    In 8 turns, we can get 24 units. :D
    A mix of Macemen and Muskets if we go ahead and tech Gunpowder during the golden age.
    Even the iceball fish cities could draft a bit near the end of the golden age before we switched back to Bureaucracy.

    Combined with Frigates bombarding down every coastal cities' defense, we'd steamroll the AI.
    Would need Chemistry to do that though.

    Dom limit is currently 58% of 1133 land tiles, or 657 tiles.
    We have 23.39% or 265 land tiles.
    We can expand 20 tiles in our homeland.
    England will give us 53 tiles.
    France will give us 70 tiles.
    Mao's vast continent will give us 249 tiles if we get every single ice/tundra/desert.

    That gives precisely 657 tiles and a Dom win. :crazyeye:
    And if we don't want every tile on Mao's continent (a lot of them are terrible), we can invade Japan for better cities.


    We could trade Nationalism+Paper to Mansa for Astronomy.
    Maybe then Mansa would tech Constitution for us and we could finally switch to Representation. :dunno:
    Mansa doesn't appear to have Marble to compete with us for Taj.
    Sparta still has two forests to chop and will have lots of mines and workshops.

    Can still double bulb Sci. Method and Liberalism Communism and switch out of Nationalism and into State Property at end of Golden age.
     
  3. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    While I might exercise a little restraint than...

    ;)

    I do like this idea a lot. :D

    The civic upkeep for Nationalism was far, far lower than Bureaucracy when I last checked.

    Trading Nationalism to Mansa would that we spend ~15 turns freaking out whether MM will generate a Great Engineer, though.

    -----

    With some changes...

    T137–39: 3 turns to research Nationalism
    T140: GA/civic switch into Nationhood/Caste/Pacifism, and Judaism
    T140/1/2: bank gold

    Amsterdam: GP Plan

    T136: 102GPP

    T140: 8 GScientists in GA = +96GPP (---> 198)
    T141: 8 GScientists in GA = +96GPP (---> 294)
    T142: 9 GScientists in GA = +108GPP (---> 402)

    T143 = 402/400GPP

    Argos: GP Plan

    T136: 112GPP. Grow to size 14!

    T140: 11 GScientists at +132 (---> 244) (GA: 8)
    T141: 11 GScientists at +132 (---> 376) (GA: 7)
    T142: 11 GScientists at +132 (---> 508) (GA: 6)

    T143: 508/500GPP

    T143: GA5. Double-bulb Scientific Method. Start Communism.
    T144: GA4.
    T145: GA3.
    T146: GA2.
    T147: GA1. Communism complete. Massive civic switch.
    T148: Lib. Physics

    ----

    Generate a GMerchant from Whales City after Amsterdam/Argos. Ship it to MM ASAP for slider :gold: .

    Research Gunpowder?

    Use the Physics GS to bulb Chemistry?

    Start a GA the turn we capture the MoM?

    The main challenge would be to research Nationalism in 3-turns, and then research Communism in 4-turns without Bureaucracy, but in a GA.
     
  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    It is T137 and it looks like Mansa will take 8 turns to complete Astro unless he can speed up.

    So T145 is the earliest we could double bulb Sci. Method and T146 to start manually teching Communism. :sad:
    (If we complete Lib T145, it will demand we choose a free tech before we can click the double bulb to finish Sci. Method)
    I don't think we'd get Communism done before the end of the golden age if we started the golden age T140.

    Liberalism has to be done before we can start teching Communism also. hmm
    Communism's prereq is Liberalism.
    Would double bulb T145.
    Lib Physics T146 and start teching Communism.
    Do we have so many cities that just a switch to State Property would take 2 turns outside of golden age?


    Bulbing Chemistry would be difficult easy if we teched Gunpowder and Liberalism Physics. :goodjob:
    Spoiler :
    Great Scientist:

    Writing
    Mathematics
    Scientific Method
    Physics
    Education
    Printing Press
    Fiber Optics
    Computers
    Laser (BTS)
    The Wheel
    Alphabet (BTS)
    Philosophy
    Chemistry
    Fission
    Fusion
    Optics
    Paper
    Astronomy
    Biology
    Electricity
    Flight
    Genetics
    Compass
    Satellites
    Aesthetics (BTS)
    Sailing
    Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
    Calendar
    Medicine
    Ecology
    Advanced Flight (BTS)
    Iron Working
    Metal Casting
    Engineering
    Steam Power
    Liberalism
    Agriculture
    Masonry
    Bronze Working
    Machinery
    Gunpowder
    Refrigeration
    Superconductors (BTS)
    Rocketry
    Fishing
    Combustion
    Plastics
    Composites
    Stealth (BTS)
    Mining
    Military Science (BTS)
    Radio
    Meditation
    Drama
    Theology
    Music
    Civil Service
    Democracy
    Corporation
    Communism
    Economics
    Hunting
    Archery
    Animal Husbandry
    Construction
    Robotics
    Monotheism
    Mass Media
    Horseback Riding
    Replaceable Parts
    Rifling
    Artillery
    Future Tech

    A fast Great Merchant from Whales after the double bulb would be very helpful ya.
    The free Great Scientist from Physics could be used to bulb 1850/2925:science: Chemistry, so we wouldn't need a 3rd Great Scientist.

    2nd GA once we capture MoM sounds good to me.
     
  5. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Yep, I just realized.

    We could delay the GA by 2-3 more turns, I suppose. This means we'll be in a more-or-less continuous GA until the end of the game.

    Switching into Nationhood will hurt :science: a bit in favor of military :hammers: at the time we get Galleons. This is fine, I think, as long as the economic loss doesn't snowball.

    Having to Lib. Communism > Physics, so as to switch into State Property before the GA ends, would be a big beaker hit. I think that will be slower for us in the long run.
     
  6. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    There are a few reasons that I am against researching Nat ourselves:
    • You never know if Mansa produce a GE sometime.
    • We don't need to draft units as we have ~20 non-siege units already, what we are going to lost in the war are mostly trebs.
    • Researching Gunpower let us advance to Steel, which is our next goal, cannons are the ultimate war machine in this game.

    In order to trade Astro,

    1 turn before Mansa complete Astronomy:

    • Gift paper to Mansa, Complete Gunpowder with maximum OF
    • Trade Astronomy with PP and Gunpowder, and double bulb SM, Complete Lib with almost 2 turns of beakers OF and take Physics as freebee
    • Communism should be completed in 2~3 turns.

    Edit:
    Mansa can't take Gunpowder with Guild or Edu. Maybe we can just trade away Edu+PP.
    Do we care about the Economy GM? I think not as the cost of Economy is close to a GM and we don't need Economy before we are ready for AL.
    We won't be short of trade bait, so gifting away 2 big techs is fine, they will speed up Mansa's tech pace as well.
     
  7. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    First of all, happy Easter! :)

    I'm so out of this game, but maybe just a comment about drafting. I'd think that tech racing is most important now so building up more military units would most likely delay the win.

    There's not much time left and it would take me too much time (that I don't really have anyway) to get back into this and the team can't afford such delays. It seems it's all on the shoulders of Doshin, Kaitzilla and Duckweed now. I'll try to help though if I can with some comments.

    And btw great job so far, it's impressive how it all went down!
     
  8. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Goodjob.

    Just reminding that Economics obsoletes castles for a task. So no Economics, IMO.

    I am not against drafting since that initial force will conquer the map in no time and we'll save a lot of pop from whips --> good for research.
    Drafting allows parallel unit and GPP production in caste, and that is aligned with our goals. Siege can be slow built and chopped.
    No academy in Athens is really adding to our flexibility.

    I am more into researching Nat ourselves because whoever researches it will most probably start Taj and will have ''his own reasons'' not to trade with us, regardless of attitude. Taj is a bit of a gamble but nothing stopped us gambling so far so...
    And we get drafting.
     
  9. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Would anyone object to me cleaning up the stickies in the current save, rearranging some shared tiles, and uploading again?

    ----

    As a point of discussion: how would you all feel about cultivating Catherine as a second tech trading partner?

    Spoiler :



    We could gift: Philosophy + Civil Service + Music and maybe an economic tech (Currency).

    This would let Catherine pick from Nationalism, Constitution, and Military Tradition. The last one is irrelevant for us, but the first two aren't.

    We don't plan to build the Taj until we have Marble, so it doesn't matter if Catherine is slow to tech Nationalism. And if she doesn't get it, we research it ourselves, no big deal.

    I think Mansa will get Guilds/Banking for us, and I think we will want Gunpowder before Catherine can get it for us, which is why I'd prefer getting Catherine onto the top tech line.

    ----

    Happy Easter all.
     
  10. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Cathy won't be friendly with us after we convert to Judaism, and her tech rate for the moment is probably 1/3 of Mansa, takes her at least 20 turns to get a big tech. She is more likely to pick some cheap techs rather than Nat line.
     
  11. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    We can enter Free Religion to make the trade, and it wouldn't be for at least 20-30 turns. Her different religion penalty isn't that severe either, just –3.

    Do we need Nat./Constitution before Cathy could research either? Or do we have a reason to keep Catherine backward?
     
  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Usually we will remain at Pacifism during GA, especially during the 1st 3 GAs as GPs are more valuable and demanding. Moreover, we are going to switch to Representation after taking mids, which is ~15 turns away, so the cost of keeping Cathy at friendly state is rather high. Another small reason is that she is going to trade techs around to speedup global tech rate, which we don't want since only Mansa won't be our war targets, all others will be if the time allows.:ar15:
     
  13. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I think I'm convinced by the Representation argument.

    It will be hard to war with everyone. Louis will quickly collapse underneath the weight of his wonders (or: 3 cities per island doesn't help...) but Mao, the 2nd tech leader, will have Macemen and ~13 cities by the time we arrive.

    After Mao, we should have enough troops to go after Isabella and Tokugawa simultaneously. Toku has Chichen Itza and stupid unit promotions, so Frigates or Cannons would help.

    ----

    Isabella needs to be at +3 relations in order to satisfy the task requirements.

    If we want to gift Eretria (eventually) we'll probably need to reduce her to <3 cities, which will make her... unhappy. :D

    Should we ship a Jewish Missionary to her mainland and gift it to her in her worst city (the one we don't want)? We could then convert her to Judaism as part of the peace deal. If she has one Buddhist/Jewish city, I don't think she'd convert back.

    We can then gift Eretria when relations improve.

    There's no hurry on this. We could use the Caravel after it has scouted Louis.
     
  14. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Not at home so I have to use what I remember from the map.

    Izzy #2 is good, we have a city on the island which I think is on desert (could be desert hill - is that viable?). We can gift the city to her via a bridge using another city east (within 9.5?10.5? tiles).
    Given that Cathy is still bottleneck, we can always look up what's #3 as #2 blocks Economics and Rifling for a while.

    Cathy #2 is possibly faster:
    - swap Rifling for Fission (1T) as we don't need Uranium anymore
    - you only need 1 Oil hooked up. It could be a big nightmare when we discover all the available resources location.
    - worker turns+logistics to hook up resources. Even with raze+resettle, roads might be required to connect to newtork if inland
    Biggest problem would be producing 12 tanks. Kremlin and Police State still leaves them pretty expensive as dry whips.

    For now, keep swallowing cities. With all the logistics problem, I'm not too sure AP is best road.
    Nationalism is needed sooner or later for Constitution>Corp>Assembly Line. I wouldn't mind using those island cities under NH :p

    A lot of boats are needed. Astronomy in 8 more turns feels late.

    A thought: Fascism is always a possibility for free GG if we need it.
     
  15. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    ^
    Fission is required to build nuke, we only need Physics to reveal the Uranium and then mine it.

    Yep, better to be earlier as she probably will spread it to capital 1st and then take some time to produce monastery and then missionaries.
     
  16. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    !!

    Great catch :thumbsup:

    • SciMethod reveals Oil. Combustion/Plastics lets us connect it.
    • Physics reveals Uranium. Fission lets us connect it.
    So Catherine (b) will likely be quicker. We don't need Rifling: 12 Muskets + 4 Airships + 12 Tanks (dry-whipped in 1-turn).
     
  17. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    No fission.
     
  18. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Mine and road the Uranium. Look in the city screen or find an AI with trade routes. Is Uranium part of our trade network? Then add Fission, and compare.
     
  19. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Right, Never noticed that Uranium needs Fission to be able to trade.

    Tank needs Rifling to produce.
     
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I'll play the next turnset.

    I never noticed that either.
    Thanks Kossin!

    If we did decide to do Catherine #1, Fission would be the last thing we tech.
    Would give us time to hook up the needed aluminum.

    Good thinking with the airships :goodjob:
    Thankfully a city can hold up to 4 air units without an airport.

    Yes, the final turns would come down to the 12 tanks (180:hammers: each)
    If the 4 Aluminum were inside our borders, then #1 would be faster as we could tech Fission (8937:science:) faster than getting 12 tanks into Catherine's capital.
    Especially if we had a few Great Scientists around to help bulb Fission.
     

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