SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
We have to manage 950per turn after the Colossus obsoletes?
I forgot about that.
gah!
Also, the closest I can get to Gunpowder and Liberalism without completing is within 100
So when I overflow twice, 200
Wish the slider was in 1% increments instead of 10%.
So it could be 4 turns trying to average 1000
Golden age on T142 would help me sleep at night, but if you guys want to push I'll do T141.
Worst thing that happens is we miss getting Communism before golden age ends and we have to wait until next golden age to switch to State Property.
The plan is T140 GA, not T141.
Currently our tech rate is 802b-471g @100% slider.
Univ in capital adds ~28b
Univ in Sparta, Corinth, and Whale add ~30b
3 cities in England add ~60b
Barbarian city adds ~10b
Golden age adds 100~200b , depends on building research/wealth
More populations: (30~50) *2 = 60~100 C
subtract TC bonus: ~40C
The BP after Astronomy should be 1050~1200 bpt. However, the increment of bpt comes with the cost of more maintenance fee as well. My guess is that building wealth/research is likely needed. You could pause before the 2nd turn into Gunpowder to reassess the bpt again.
It has to be T141. If Mansa gets Astronomy on T145...The plan is T140 GA, not T141.
T141: GA8.
T142: GA7.
T143: GA6.
T144: GA5. Slider @ 100% on Gunpowder.
T145: GA4. Trade Astronomy with Mansa. Slider @ 100% on Liberalism.
T146: GA3. Slider @ 100% on Communism (2 turns OF + 3rd turn of research)
T147: GA2. Slider @ 100% on Communism (4th turn of research)
T148: GA1. Communism complete. Civic switch.
T142: GA7.
T143: GA6.
T144: GA5. Slider @ 100% on Gunpowder.
T145: GA4. Trade Astronomy with Mansa. Slider @ 100% on Liberalism.
T146: GA3. Slider @ 100% on Communism (2 turns OF + 3rd turn of research)
T147: GA2. Slider @ 100% on Communism (4th turn of research)
T148: GA1. Communism complete. Civic switch.
Shall we demand that Tokugawa gives us some of his gold? He has 80 right now.
*** This is the GP Plan. ***
@Kaitzilla
Could you link the above post on the first page of the team thread? I'll edit this post exclusively from now.
If we have 100 different GP plans spread over 100 different pages, it's very easy to confuse them.
I'll check the numbers later. We're basically good, except Amsterdam is 2-4F short.
This means working the Coast > Horse before the GA.
Whales City will need one turn more than I'd planned to generate the GMerchant, to prevent starvation.
I'd prefer to whip Universities > Markets in Amsterdam and Whales.
@Kaitzilla
Could you link the above post on the first page of the team thread? I'll edit this post exclusively from now.
If we have 100 different GP plans spread over 100 different pages, it's very easy to confuse them.
- Argos: whip University on T137. Size 12 on T141. (Size 11 minimum needed.)
- Amst: whip University on T138. Size 13 on T141. (Size 13 minimum needed)
- Whales: whip University on T137. Size 13 on T141. (Size 13 optimal).
I'll check the numbers later. We're basically good, except Amsterdam is 2-4F short.
This means working the Coast > Horse before the GA.Whales City will need one turn more than I'd planned to generate the GMerchant, to prevent starvation.
I'd prefer to whip Universities > Markets in Amsterdam and Whales.
Spoiler :
The plan is T140 GA, not T141.
Currently our tech rate is 802b-471g @100% slider.
Univ in capital adds ~28b
Univ in Sparta, Corinth, and Whale add ~30b
3 cities in England add ~60b
Barbarian city adds ~10b
Golden age adds 100~200b , depends on building research/wealth
More populations: (30~50) *2 = 60~100 C
subtract TC bonus: ~40C
The BP after Astronomy should be 1050~1200 bpt. However, the increment of bpt comes with the cost of more maintenance fee as well. My guess is that building wealth/research is likely needed. You could pause before the 2nd turn into Gunpowder to reassess the bpt again.
Thanks!
I feel much better about T141 Golden Age now.
I like the gold demand.
All upside and no downside.
Done.
Linked at the top of post #3
I'll make a preliminary PPP tonight of city builds and various things.
How do you think we should manage later GPs, after the initial GS/GS/GM? We'll have Representation later, but should start accumulating GPP in some cities now.
My suggestions:
If Athens builds Oxford, there will be GP pollution in this city. So the first Athens GP needs to be produced relatively early to give another city time to start on a GMerchant or GScientist.
If Athens produces a GScientist after Chemistry, its only* use is to start a third Golden Age.
*as Kaitzilla noted, Fission also trumps Biology in terms of late GScientist bulbs:
And ignore Economics?
My suggestions:
- Physics GScientist. Bulb Chemistry.
- Communism GSpy. First half of GA#2.
- Sparta: 700GP. Try to generate on the turn we capture Orleans. Second half of GA#2.
- Argos: 800GMerchant (build up ~400GPP in GA#1)
- Athens: ignore until we hit the happy/health cap. First third of GA#3.
- Amsterdam: grow to happy/health cap after 500GPP. Then GM.
- Whales: #2: at ~0GPP when GA#1 ends. Can get another late GM.
- Orleans: 1400 or 1600GPP, non-GS / non-GM for GA#3?
Spoiler : - Argos. 1400 or 1600GPP GMerchant / GScientist for GA#3.
If Athens builds Oxford, there will be GP pollution in this city. So the first Athens GP needs to be produced relatively early to give another city time to start on a GMerchant or GScientist.
If Athens produces a GScientist after Chemistry, its only* use is to start a third Golden Age.
*as Kaitzilla noted, Fission also trumps Biology in terms of late GScientist bulbs:
Spoiler :
I just tried to think about SGOTM19 beaker rate again, maybe we have underestimated our research ability. What if we are able to complete the required tech during T180~190? Then starting GAs continuously from now on is more efficient.
With GA, our current bpt is similar as SGOTM19 in the same time. We complete all the techs on T150.
The tech difference is
RP: 2925
Rifling: 3900
Astro: 3250
SP: 5200
AL: 9150
Ind: 10562
Phy: 6500
Elec: 7312
Chem: 2925
Steel: 4550
Railwaay: 7312
Combustion: 5850
Communism: 4550
vs
Demo: 4550
Biology: 5850
Med: 7312
If we scratch the Lib free tech of Phy and Med, and scratch another two techs with the same value,
The beaker difference would be
57086/1.2= 47571
Which needs 30 turns if our average beaker rate after T150 is 1600bpt, not difficult. If that's true, then the bottleneck of this game is still some balance between military progress and beaker rate.
If we start GA immediately, then 4 GAs last until T177.
Galleons take 4 turns to approach Orleans(MoM), if we aim to launch 2nd GA after capture Orleans, then the earliest time would be ~14 turns later, that's T151 + 3 more GAs = T187 to be the optimal end game date for GA. Probably OK. So we need to optimize and emphasize the galleon production next. Now I wholeheartily want extra galleons from Knossos and Myc.
The difference is that if the game could end before T180, GA immediately is better, otherwise as originally planned.
With GA, our current bpt is similar as SGOTM19 in the same time. We complete all the techs on T150.
The tech difference is
RP: 2925
Rifling: 3900
Astro: 3250
SP: 5200
AL: 9150
Ind: 10562
Phy: 6500
Elec: 7312
Chem: 2925
Steel: 4550
Railwaay: 7312
Combustion: 5850
Communism: 4550
vs
Demo: 4550
Biology: 5850
Med: 7312
If we scratch the Lib free tech of Phy and Med, and scratch another two techs with the same value,
The beaker difference would be
57086/1.2= 47571
Which needs 30 turns if our average beaker rate after T150 is 1600bpt, not difficult. If that's true, then the bottleneck of this game is still some balance between military progress and beaker rate.
If we start GA immediately, then 4 GAs last until T177.
Galleons take 4 turns to approach Orleans(MoM), if we aim to launch 2nd GA after capture Orleans, then the earliest time would be ~14 turns later, that's T151 + 3 more GAs = T187 to be the optimal end game date for GA. Probably OK. So we need to optimize and emphasize the galleon production next. Now I wholeheartily want extra galleons from Knossos and Myc.
The difference is that if the game could end before T180, GA immediately is better, otherwise as originally planned.
Some thoughts, not a complete analysis:
Scratch Astro from tech difference, if MM researches this for us.
I assume Mansa will get Guilds/Banking/Economics. You could add Constitution to the list of techs we need to research, although we will need to self-tech this if we want to beeline AL. I don't think Factories/CPs will pay back in the time frame, though. Maybe in a few cities, but Corporation would obsolete the GLH in more.
We're down Gunpowder, Nationalism, and MT compared to SGOTM19. MT is irrelevant.
We had a T118 Academy/Oxford in SGOTM 19, and had run one 12-turn GA. We started two more by the game end (T160). Our cities had far better research potential due to many early Cottages maturing, a strong Bureau capital, and better land in general.
We'd generated 4 more Great People by this point. We might have used 5: I can't remember if we saved the GArtist. This game has more Great People available for the end turns.
I think you underestimate the contribution of the Colossus to our current economy. You said ~40C, but I counted 73 coastal tiles being worked already. We need Galleons, OFC, but these will come with an economic hit (balanced by SP and GA, but we shouldn't think that these will spark a total explosion in our tech rate).
We have more cities in this game, the difficult war is now over, and many of the smaller cities are now just about set up.
----
I think military progress is going to be the bottleneck after Communism, especially because waiting for Mansa to research Astronomy sets our war progress behind by 2–3 turns.
I do think we need to construct a second stack to launch as soon as the first departs for France. And I think that, because we will need siege and boats as well, we will need to draft Muskets.
Big captured cities need 10–11 turns to leave revolt. There is a danger that, if we wait too long, we will capture these too late to contribute to our end game.
Scratch Astro from tech difference, if MM researches this for us.
I assume Mansa will get Guilds/Banking/Economics. You could add Constitution to the list of techs we need to research, although we will need to self-tech this if we want to beeline AL. I don't think Factories/CPs will pay back in the time frame, though. Maybe in a few cities, but Corporation would obsolete the GLH in more.
We're down Gunpowder, Nationalism, and MT compared to SGOTM19. MT is irrelevant.
We had a T118 Academy/Oxford in SGOTM 19, and had run one 12-turn GA. We started two more by the game end (T160). Our cities had far better research potential due to many early Cottages maturing, a strong Bureau capital, and better land in general.
We'd generated 4 more Great People by this point. We might have used 5: I can't remember if we saved the GArtist. This game has more Great People available for the end turns.
I think you underestimate the contribution of the Colossus to our current economy. You said ~40C, but I counted 73 coastal tiles being worked already. We need Galleons, OFC, but these will come with an economic hit (balanced by SP and GA, but we shouldn't think that these will spark a total explosion in our tech rate).
We have more cities in this game, the difficult war is now over, and many of the smaller cities are now just about set up.
----
I think military progress is going to be the bottleneck after Communism, especially because waiting for Mansa to research Astronomy sets our war progress behind by 2–3 turns.
I do think we need to construct a second stack to launch as soon as the first departs for France. And I think that, because we will need siege and boats as well, we will need to draft Muskets.
Big captured cities need 10–11 turns to leave revolt. There is a danger that, if we wait too long, we will capture these too late to contribute to our end game.
I said TC ~40C is because that Ams, Argos, and Whale will run scientists during GA, a scientist offers the same beakers as a water tile.
The infrastructures and cottages difference won't matter for comparing 2 games while the bpt is similar.
Let's guarantee the GPs for GAs 1st, if necessary, I don't mind of staying slavery during GA to whip more units to speedup war progress.
Regarding your future GP plan, I think Orleans is not going to contribute a GP for GA#3.
The infrastructures and cottages difference won't matter for comparing 2 games while the bpt is similar.
Let's guarantee the GPs for GAs 1st, if necessary, I don't mind of staying slavery during GA to whip more units to speedup war progress.
Regarding your future GP plan, I think Orleans is not going to contribute a GP for GA#3.
Staying with the old GA plan (8–turn begins on T141) and then launching a 12-turn GA#2 on T151?
(A)
GA#1: T141---> T148
GA#2: T151 --->
GA#3: T163 --->
GA#4: T175 ---> T188
GA#1: T141---> T148
GA#2: T151 --->
GA#3: T163 --->
GA#4: T175 ---> T188
Or:
(B)
GA#1: T137 ----> T144
GA#2: T145 ----> T152
GA#3: T153 ---> T164
GA#4: T165 ---> T177
GA#1: T137 ----> T144
GA#2: T145 ----> T152
GA#3: T153 ---> T164
GA#4: T165 ---> T177
I don't know, maybe I'm too optimistic about our beaker rate, especially the inter-continental war is more costly than Cui war in a single land mass.
Let's just stick to the original plan, but be aware of emphasizing more on military.
England war progress should be like:
T139: capture York
T140,141 move towards London
T142 Bombard
T143 capture London, Nottingham should be down in around the same time with reinforcements.
So Mansa's astronomy does delay our war progress by ~3 turns.
Shall we research it ourselves?
Let's just stick to the original plan, but be aware of emphasizing more on military.
England war progress should be like:
T139: capture York
T140,141 move towards London
T142 Bombard
T143 capture London, Nottingham should be down in around the same time with reinforcements.
So Mansa's astronomy does delay our war progress by ~3 turns.
Shall we research it ourselves?
Back home. I'm still short on time so don't count on me for anything other than advisory purposes.
Dry whipping tanks with Kremlin+Forge+PS costs 4 pop so it's definitely possible. A short war with Catherine to bring her capital to St-Pete saves 1T in the end.
I'm not seeing Domination soon enough from the current save. Research under GA should be ~1,000 with current cities but keeping the slider up will be difficult while producing units at the same time. We may hit 1500~1600bpt as Duckweed wrote....
Assuming we can trade for Astro+Guild+Banking (I kinda hope we could get the Economics GM), a few bulbs and discount, we have around 60,000 raw beakers to generate. If we somehow can keep up 100% research and reach 1,500 bpt by T150 as estimated by Duckweed, then we get there around T179~180.
Dry whipping tanks with Kremlin+Forge+PS costs 4 pop so it's definitely possible. A short war with Catherine to bring her capital to St-Pete saves 1T in the end.
I'm not seeing Domination soon enough from the current save. Research under GA should be ~1,000 with current cities but keeping the slider up will be difficult while producing units at the same time. We may hit 1500~1600bpt as Duckweed wrote....
Assuming we can trade for Astro+Guild+Banking (I kinda hope we could get the Economics GM), a few bulbs and discount, we have around 60,000 raw beakers to generate. If we somehow can keep up 100% research and reach 1,500 bpt by T150 as estimated by Duckweed, then we get there around T179~180.
We need to scout Louis with the Caravel and count his defenders.
The Elizabeth war should provide 1 more Great General. If it is born near England, the Great General should be attached to a Galley and its XP could be shared with a second. Both promote to Navigation II and upgrade.
Movement would look as follows (correction: move the southern green line 2S to Bulwayo, leading to '6'):
The fast Galleon stack would unload 1N of Orleans. This would provide 6–9 units.
On the same turn, the 5-move Galleons can empty their troops outside Paris and Tours (1SE of both cities respectively).
Any Galleons present in Bulwayo on T146 can supplement the Paris/Tours attack.
Any Galleons present in The Hague on T146 can supplement the Tours attack.
If the capital is threatened, Louis will not draw troops from Paris, and Lyons is too far away to reinforce.
We switch Louis into Caste System before the DOW, so that he cannot whip.
Agades (the Mansa city by Chartes) could also receive an Airship or two on T148, if it can reach as far as France.
-----
Sharing the GG between two Galleys (if 9 troops are needed for Orleans) would make the Elizabeth and Catherine tasks tough. Our Frigate will need to go XP hunting sooner, and withdraw into the Ocean when hurt.
The Elizabeth war should provide 1 more Great General. If it is born near England, the Great General should be attached to a Galley and its XP could be shared with a second. Both promote to Navigation II and upgrade.
Movement would look as follows (correction: move the southern green line 2S to Bulwayo, leading to '6'):
The fast Galleon stack would unload 1N of Orleans. This would provide 6–9 units.
On the same turn, the 5-move Galleons can empty their troops outside Paris and Tours (1SE of both cities respectively).
Any Galleons present in Bulwayo on T146 can supplement the Paris/Tours attack.
Any Galleons present in The Hague on T146 can supplement the Tours attack.
If the capital is threatened, Louis will not draw troops from Paris, and Lyons is too far away to reinforce.
We switch Louis into Caste System before the DOW, so that he cannot whip.
Agades (the Mansa city by Chartes) could also receive an Airship or two on T148, if it can reach as far as France.
-----
Sharing the GG between two Galleys (if 9 troops are needed for Orleans) would make the Elizabeth and Catherine tasks tough. Our Frigate will need to go XP hunting sooner, and withdraw into the Ocean when hurt.
The current GG point is 49/90, might not be able to produce a GG in time as we get at most 2 GGPs from one English units.
1 turn of earlier GA ~T150 offers probably 300~400C/H, which is good, but not determinative.
The more important thing is that we should be aware of emphasizing military build in the future.
1 turn of earlier GA ~T150 offers probably 300~400C/H, which is good, but not determinative.
The more important thing is that we should be aware of emphasizing military build in the future.
So: Gunpowder ---> Lib./Physics/Communism ---> Chemistry ---> Steel, and we can then consider forming a small second stack to go after Isabella and Cathy:
Isabella's cities start from ~5 tiles away from our core, so could be captured quickly and easily.
Cathy's cities could be razed and resettled to let us move her capital (this is harder).
Dom limit is currently 58% of 1133 land tiles, or 657 tiles.
We have 23.39% or 265 land tiles.
We can expand 20 tiles in our homeland.
England will give us 53 tiles.
France will give us 70 tiles.
Mao's vast continent will give us 249 tiles if we get every single ice/tundra/desert.
That gives precisely 657 tiles and a Dom win.
And if we don't want every tile on Mao's continent (a lot of them are terrible), we can invade Japan for better cities.
Louis + southern/central Mao + Isabella should be enough for Domination. If we invade Louis on T148/9, he will be done by T155 and the stack can focus on Mao.
Isabella's cities start from ~5 tiles away from our core, so could be captured quickly and easily.
Cathy's cities could be razed and resettled to let us move her capital (this is harder).
We can't razed Cathy's cities if we want to send troops to her capital.
We probably don't need to DOW Izzy, we can gift Canterbury and then Eretria to her, (Edit: she does not want it even it's within the 9 tile range) easy to recapture them back. We can then focus on dealing Cathy instead.
Edit: In that case we can attack Cathy next instead of Mao.
Galleon war is pretty fast with enough units since they can reach multiple coastal cities in the same time. Of course, the cost is that we have to invest more hammers on military units rather than build wealth to focus on research, that's why I said that we need to think about the balance of research and military progress to achieve optimal result.
Edit: In that case we can attack Cathy next instead of Mao.
Galleon war is pretty fast with enough units since they can reach multiple coastal cities in the same time. Of course, the cost is that we have to invest more hammers on military units rather than build wealth to focus on research, that's why I said that we need to think about the balance of research and military progress to achieve optimal result.
Bribe Cathy to declare war upon Tokugawa.We can't razed Cathy's cities if we want to send troops to her capital.
We backstab Cathy.
We take her cities, leaving her with one (e.g. Yakutsk).
We ceasefire and gift a city somewhere convenient (e.g. 3N2W of Sparta, or near the warfront).
We redeclare war and capture her last mainland city.
We make peace, declare war on Tokugawa, open borders, whip Tanks, and have a parade.
The GG could come from Athens if we have enough beaker OF and cash to research Fascism after Combustion/Industrialism.
---
edit: Willem dead; Elizabeth, Cathy, and Isabella all Furious.
Mansa is the true object of our affection and attention in this game.
No good to bribe as she needs to build navy to invade, very slow and only cause her to gather troops in her own cities. AIs would be easy pick now, the key is the shipment of enough units to attack multiple sites.
We need to prioritize Rifling after Steel.
We need to prioritize Rifling after Steel.
This point weighs heavily on my mind.
With the standard plan, at the start of T148 we are at 0
from completing Communism and upgrading galleys to Galleons.We'd switch to slavery+State Property and bulb Chemistry to 1900/2900 and then?
Golden Age would end T149 and all our workshops would be +1
The Great Merchant from Whales would be needed to start the next golden age T151 with the Great Spy.
Consider this. What if we Liberalism Steel?
The broad outline would be this:
Golden Age T138
Caravel whipped in Mycenae T138 to help move Great Merchants around.
T140 - Gunpowder is ours.
T141 - Great Scientist born in Amsterdam, use it to bulb Chemistry
T142 - 80% chance Great Merchant born in Argos. Use caravel to send to Mansa's Gao by dropping on road 7 tiles from Argos. Can do trade mission T145.
T143 - Max slider on the sliver of Chemistry
T144 - Max slider on the sliver of Liberalism
45% chance Great Merchant born in Sparta.
If Great Merchant, send to Mansa's Gao on caravel. Use galley to help chain. Can do trade mission T148 I think.
If Great Prophet, save for golden age T150.
T145 - Choose free Steel. If Argos spawned a Great Scientist, bulb Sci. Method instead of doing trade mission. Else do trade mission.
Should have 1600
? at this point not counting the trade mission.Upgrade 7 of the strongest trebs to cannons for 80
eachUpgrade 4 galleys for 110
eachRevolt back to slavery, whip Frigates in England and Bulawayo. Whip Galleons in other coastal cities.
Whip Cannons and Muskets everywhere else.
Great Merchant born in Whales City. Can be used for Golden Age or trade mission in Gao on T150 if Sparta spawned a Great Prophet.
Yes, Steel is 2000
less than Physics, but we can get more use out of it having it sooner and get some of the back manually researching Sci. Method (40% research bonus with Astro+Chemistry) instead of double bulbing Scientific Method.Wouldn't it be nice to land 7 cannons next to Louis' fat cities on T149?
Or we spend more gold, and have 11 cannons!
They wouldn't even need troops to protect them. No AI has cavalry and 12
is really strong.And have frigates bombarding down his city defenses constantly without ever stopping?
We merely need a Great Merchant from Argos or Sparta to ensure Communism by T150.
State Property+Caste again on T150. Would be 2 turns slower than the original plan switching to State Property.
If we get Great Prophet+Great Scientist instead, we can still bulb half of Sci. Method T145 and limp towards Communism until the Whales City trade mission arrives T150 in Gao to give us gold again.
During the 12 turn golden age starting T150, we'd need to generate 3 more great people for 800,900,1000 if we didn't tech physics.
Taj won't be ready in time to make the next golden age just yet.
I'd recommend Amsterdam to keep running Scientists after reaching 400/400GPP, Argos to keep running great merchants, and Whales city can run artists since it will end the golden age producing the 700GPP great person and have 0GPP when caste ends.
