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SGOTM 21 Pregame Discussion Thread - Conquering the Hearts

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by Deckhand, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    OK, good.

    I hope you will be quite busy early on anyway. Just try reaching currency alive ;)
    Just joking ("If you manage to get the city without nukes..." anyone?)
     
  2. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Your jokes made us tech Rifles (= your jokes are awesome) :D

    Discussing the starting area would be fun, but i guess against the rules?
    Would not matter much for me, each team will do so anyways.
     
  3. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Sorry, but yep, it's against the rules.
     
  4. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I know that the decision has been made and I'm fine with what was decided. However, I agree with WT here. It would have been very interesting to allow the gift of 100g pre-Currency when 100g is a LOT. Hmmm... should we delay BW by 10 turns or should we buy a clue early so that we can start planning for it. Post-Currency, 100g is nothing relatively speaking.

    @ WT, you will NOT be allowed to gift a single worker in this game!! :mischief:
     
  5. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    You act as if it was impossible to gain access to the information, but it isn't. The option to get info early is still there. You can buy it pre-Currency. It's just quite expensive then. Plus, as I told you, if you didn't need currency to pay Willem, the question if its worth to go for currency early on wouldn't be there. You trade one strategic decision against another.

    This is my final post about that. Please don't misunderstand this, but to discuss this in a reasonable way we'd need to talk about all the strategic implications of it, and that's against the rules of this thread. So please accept that we (those who know the tasks and the map and the AI setup) thought it would be more interesting this way and trust us for now. The discussion if we were right will have to wait until after the game.
     
  6. sossos

    sossos King

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    Deleted
     
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Is the shorter 2 months and 21 day deadline intended?? Not sure anyone has noticed this. :whipped: :whipped:
     
  8. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Would you prefer 3 months and 21 days?

    It's unlikely you can win with as few turns as in the last SGOTM. And February is a short month. too.

    Opinions, please!
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Is it ok to offer 100g to WvO, take a screenie, than add some techs and use those 100g to make a deal, for example, CoL for Construction, which wouldn't probably happen without adding gold, this part is important, NO screenshot of this, and than, after the trade, and after the message about traded tech disappeared take a screenshot to prove 100g were given.

    Some would argue that you can see a score increase, but you may also be warring at a time and capture a city or two.

    I'd propose that no tech trades with WvO are to be made on turn you ask him a question.
    Opportunity makes a thief.


    Regarding WT's concern about Currency, yes, 100g is not much at that point. I'd make it a lump sum of 157g and problem solved.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    It does seem a big drop from last game. I don't think 4 months is needed unless you are plotting a space game. At least 3 months would be nice. Nice to have a mini break in middle to give players a break. Many will be away over Easter too.
     
  11. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    No, it is not OK.
    Good question, good point, good suggestion.

    Forbidding tech trades the turn of the gift seems like a good idea.

    In my test game, I sold him techs immediately after gifting him the money to get some of it back. You would need to wait a turn. Not all 100g was available anyway.

    hmmn, OTOH, the rule may not be necessary.
    • Save and submit game.
    • Offer and make trade (gift only, nothing else). Document somehow with pictures in your thread.
    • Save and submit game.
    The saves aren't at end of turn, but right before and after the gift.
    Anyone (not on another team) could check that the only difference between the saves was the amount of money. Nothing else should change.
    -----

    The intent was to have a similar play period as SGOTM20, perhaps longer but not shorter. We will extend it.
     
  12. sossos

    sossos King

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    @shaka

    You're always creatively evil:cool:, so I think the gifting of 100 gold may be better controlled by the arbitrator to avoid any tricky manipulation, as BSPollux said originally.

     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Submit screenshot before and after trade. If score changes you know a tech was traded. It would also show in the game log too that a tech was traded for or researched.
     
  14. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Guys, we read the team threads. If a tech magically appears out of nowhere we will notice. These games are exceptionally well documented, a difference as big as a 'free' tech will definitely show, to us and the other teammates. Because I doubt there is a team full of cheaters here. But one rule we could introduce would be: "The gift has to be the last diplomatic action with Willem on that turn." This seems like the easiest way to solve this and it takes away no other options.

    And another thing: If you trade him tech for the gold you have just given him, you are basically changing a gold gift into a tech gift, and that's fine with me. If there was an option to gift research points I would have included that option as well. But please, don't spoiler possible strategies now. Let every team find out for them self how to work with this situation.
     
  15. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I am simply constructively trolling since I'd leave everything to gentleman's agreement. However, some teams would probably use this, just like flying camera or go to or feeding gpt to get more gold from a trade were all used at some point.

    If you capture cities on the same turn, score increases too, as already mentioned. Also, no tech trading with WvO on that turn is a new rule, since it is easily controlled.
    No tech trading at all would be even more easy to control but that is too much. Log doesn't say that gold was involved or who you traded with, right? I mean, everything could be calculated, but that is too tedious while simple rules make it easy for mapmakers/mapmoderators and also keep some jumpy SGOTMers calm and serene.:)

    New proposal:

    If, however, WvO, decided to gift you a tech on that turn, just take a screenshot before accepting.

    I mean, you'd do that anyway since that is nice. :)
     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    No tech from WvO to a team, except a possible (almost impossible) gift on a turn you ask him a question, would be more understandable to everyone then?

    Some trades of equal beaker value wouldn't be possible in a game because of game mechanics without giving gold, therefore, if you oiled up the trade with gold, which wouldn't be possible without that added gold, you'd basically get a free question. That's why I addressed this issue. As I understand, you want those questions to hurt for a bit. Trading tech to WvO for some part of the gold back still hurts and that is ok.
    Exploit =/= strategy so no strategy was spoilered. :)
     
  17. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    And if that is not what I want?

    You made your point clear. Please stop discussing strategies and let others post their opinions, if they wish to. We'll see then.
     
  18. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    If they blink twice, that's yes. :)


    Don't underestimate top 3 teams.
    Every team will use any exploit within rules simply because other team might. Also, every team except possibly the bottom would find a way to return its money if there was one provided by unclear rules. You can count on that.

    There are strategies, tactics, micro and exploits in this game and there is a difference between each of them. Every action depending on game mechanics which leads to obviously unintended benefit is an exploit. Teleportation, for example, was invented so that OB wouldn't be used for stationing your troops in front of cities prior to an attack but it was used in SGOTM for different purpose because developers didn't expect that.
    If you get your question for, practically, free, it wasn't intended.

    To my knowledge, no strategy was ever discussed in my posts.

    The point of paying for a question should be to make a hard decision when to sacrifice a bit of expansion and tech rate for an information which could lead to more direct and efficient use of resources and better winning date.

    Whether you meant that or not, I don't know, but I know that you should. Also, if there is not an abundant source of workers to steal nearby, everyone will go for 100 gold since it is very cheap compared to the opportunity cost of 2 workers. Think about increasing the sum to make the decision actually scratch some heads. This is a game, and good games try to be balanced, you shouldn't just make numbers up. 100 sounds made up.

    It is in human nature to emphasize what you don't prefer, and sometimes good things seem/tend to be overlooked. Don't take that personally since people will give a portion of their life to this POSSIBLY good and fun game, they should have their right to express their expectations.

    I hope most of my former team would gather since you guys have created really interesting and different scenario.

    :goodjob:

    Case closed.


    :newyear:
     
  19. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    As I said, I wont discuss if these things are good or bad, because I already know, and explaining it to you would force me to reveal scenario info that no one but me and Deckhand should have at this time. If the information you got right now points in one direction, assume we wanted you to think in that direction. ;)

    Edit:
    Why don't you join another team? Don't you like meeting new people?
     
  20. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I'll answer with a quote:

    I, simply, don't trust you two little devils. :D


    I don't intend to make too much effort (300 posts tops), since I really shouldn't due to too many RL obligations and important stuff happening at this time. Playing with someone you know removes many discussions (and posts). In a team with less civ experienced members and people I don't know and who also don't know me, I'd have to explain stuff which I find understood too much, and I am not noble enough to find satisfaction in teaching others since I don't think there's point in that. I could get into an another team, but only with some of the old crew since sentimental factor is the main factor for me to join and the game would still remain competitive and, therefore, interesting. A bit arrogant, I know.

    There was a time, some 3 years ago when I wanted to improve in this game and lead some bottom team to laurels, but life (good life but still and obstacle for civving) happened. I liked meeting new people back then, but now I like a good night sleep and eating good food while strangers are some people who want my gold j/k.
     

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