SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Okay, well maybe we'll need more testing on this part and just plan to play up to T33 for now?

    I like the idea of keeping the game moving forward, but only so far as we're not limiting our options that we haven't fully tested.

    I'm going to be very low on testing time for the next couple of days, though.

    But, here's what concerns me:
    Growing City 2 to Size 4 prior to getting a Granary. It's not going to help us too much to 2-pop-whip a Granary there after barely growing to Size 4...
    i. We don't gain the benefit of a Granary when growing from Size 3 to Size 4
    AND
    ii. Having a Granary at Size 2 isn't of particular use when you start off with an empty Foodbox and only earn 2 Food per turn

    I think that the Food could possibly be better used by the capital (at least for 1 turn minimum, but probably for more turns to maximize our recovering from Whipping in the capital).

    In other words, if we can grow City 2 to Size 3 and then give up on using the Wheat, possibly giving up on the Wheat even sooner than that time, I think that we'll be able to make much more effective use out of our Wheat by letting the capital use it more. We can literally use 1 Chop and 1 Whip in City 2 at Size 3 to get a Library and then delay the Granary for a long time before it'll really be needed. Dumping extra Food into City 2 isn't really going to do a whole lot for us, unless we are so Happiness strapped in the capital that we have no way to make use of the Wheat's Food.

    But, with an early Whip to have Whipping Unhappiness wearing off sooner and the Gems coming online, it feels like we might have the Happiness room to keep using the Wheat in the capital more often, allowing the capital to be able to recover faster from whipping.

    That's the theory, anyway, but we'd need to play it out.


    EDIT: Ideally, the goals should be:
    1. City 2 grows quickly enough to:
    i. Work each Gems Mine when it comes online
    AND
    ii. On the turn when we learn Writing, City 2 is about to grow to Size 3 (growing to Size sooner is okay if the capital can't use the Food before then, but if the capital can make good use the Food, let the capital use it)
    AND
    iii. On the turn after we learn Writing, when the Chop is realised, and City 2 is at Size 3, we 1-pop-whip the Library (20 H * 2 = 40 H, leaving 90 - 40 = 50 H, which is covered by a 1-pop-whipping action that nets us 60 H in the Library)

    2. Make use of whipping in the capital as effectively as possible

    3. Have enough population points in the capital after building a Library to hire 2 Scientists ASAP, for our Academy (or Lightbulb Alphabet if we self-tech Math, although we're not going to have a whole lot of Forests to make uber-early Math help a lot, unless we have a 4th City settled in order to build The Great Lighthouse... and even then, we can probably just pre-Chop and self-tech Math after building an Academy if we really want Math that badly early on)
     
  2. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I am not advocating whipping the granary in City 2, the real prize is the library. My approach has us slow building the granary and 2 pop whipping the library, so even after the whip, we never stop working 2 gems, but after the whip we are leveraging the granary in our slowest growing city.

    We don't need to rush forward, I have put up a PPP with micro out to t40 so it can be shot down and improved. (someone has to go first :))

    I will try a few alternatives... but as the range of priorities grows( fast settler, fast tech, fogbusters, worker efficiency....) then it becomes harder to directly compare plans.
     
  3. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Essentially, when it comes to City growth, the sooner that you can get a Granary relative to growth, the better.
    EDIT: I.e. Given a choice of growing quickly to Size 4 with an empty Foodbox just at the time of completing a Granary or staying at Size 3 and getting a Granary around the time of having a half-full Foodbox at Size 3, I'd pick the latter. Of course, we don't face that exact situation here; that's just an example, and it doesn't always apply, since inefficient growth is generally still better than no growth, but in this case, when we have a better use for the Food, I'd pick putting that Wheat to better use in the capital sooner.

    The alternative is to have a City with a lot of Food sources and just grow quickly even without a Granary (i.e. like our capital will be doing... the Food gets used efficiently this way, as we still grow to the next City Size that much faster, thereby working more total squares overall).

    The middle-of-the-road approach of growing at a moderate pace without a Granary is where you tend to see the greatest inefficiencies in terms of Food usage.

    Having 1 / 30 Food and a Happiness point to spare in our capital on T40 seems like such a shame.

    Playing it out really quickly:
    T33 Cap steals the Wheat back
    T36 Cap hits Size 4 and works Wheat and GH Riv Mine since we'll be Unhappy for 3 more turns and it takes 3 turns to grow to Size 5, while stealing the G Riv Farm would force us to grow in 2 turns (although one option is to put 1 turn of Hammers into a Settler now, then grow for 2 turns to Size 5 working the Wheat + G Riv Farm next turn and the turn after, when City 2 is busy working 2 Gems Mines)... but wait... if we Road the Gems on T38, we will have an extra Happiness...
    SO...
    T36 at Size 4, we work the Wheat + steal the G Riv Farm (City 2 working the G Riv Gems = 2 F + 2 C... good enough)
    EDIT: Or, on T36, work the GH Riv Mine and on T37 work the G Riv Farm when City 2 no longer needs it, thereby still growing to Sizes 5 and 6 in the capital at the same time, but having 2 less Food and 2 more Hammers... depending upon when we complete the Granary, we can choose which one of those is better to have

    EDIT 2: Taking the 2 Hammers looks like the better play. After we've 3-pop-whipped the Settler, we'll need to work Deer + Crab + GH Riv Mine for 3 turns to get the Granary completed... the extra Hammers won't speed up the Granary but the extra Food will mean growing to Size 4 one turn faster, such that we'd only get 10 Food in the Granary instead of 13 Food, but growing 1 turn faster only nets us, say, +1 F and +1 C from working a G Riv Mine, instead of earning 3 Food by growing 1 turn later.

    :newyear: EDIT 3: I take that back... if we have our capital's GH Mine completed by T43, we can work the Deer + GH Riv Mine + GH Mine for 2 turns to complete our Granary... and the 2 extra Hammers will be 2 extra... while the 2 extra Food will allow us to grow the City on T45 and T46 up to Size 4 with a full Granary! YES! Stealing the G Riv Farm on T36 is totally the way to go! Please confirm it, but it looks like we can be rocking with a full Granary at Size 4 on T47. Meanwhile, City 2 can steal the Wheat on T45 and T46 if for no other reason than "it is Size 3, so it can."

    T38 at Size 5, just as our Gems get Roaded (of course, if Barbs mess with our Workers, we'll make alternate arrangements to grow 1 turn slower, when Whipping Unhappiness will wear off), we can grow in 3 turns' time to Size 6, allowing us to 3-pop-whip a Settler, without wasting a Chop... those Chops are extremely valuable if we're going to build The Great Lighthouse and shouldn't go into a Settler if they don't need to
    T41 We're at Size 6 and have just finished our Work Boat (if that's too late, consider sending the City 2 Work Boat to City 3 and using the capital's Work Boat as our exploring Work Boat)
    T42 We can 3-pop-whip a Settler, or possibly delay whipping it for more overflow Hammers... it

    EDIT: In this way, we can save a Forest for The Great Lighthouse... the GH Forest's Chop can go into the Granary, and if it is going to come too come too soon, we can build a partial Farm before moving to the GH For square.


    EDIT 2: The GH For's Chop will just need to arrive on T42 or T43, basically, on the turn that we whip the Settler or one turn later, and we'll need that square Mined as of T43, so aiming for T42 getting it Mined is better. So, if the Chop will come before that time given our total number of Worker actions, build a partial Farm before moving to the GH For square.
     
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Gotta sleep, but I made several changes in the above message that you'll want to re-read.

    EDIT: Thinking further, if we can put 2 turns' worth of Hammers into the Settler and still 3-pop-whip it, we probably won't have to stop working the Crab and can still get our Granary pretty quickly, meaning that we might not need that GH Mine right away after all (although we'll still need a Chop).

    We'll have to look at how well we can capture Hammers into the Settler without getting too many Hammers so that it becomes a 2-pop-whipping action.
     
  5. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    This is effective collaboration, and you two should probably run with it, as it would take me many hours for someone else to get up to speed.

    Can someone quickly educate me on why a 50% science rate is optimal (on T30, for instance)?
     
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    The long answer is
    Spoiler :
    In Civ 4 Vanilla, one does not have fractional Flasks to deal with, so a different type of micro is required for optimal usage of one's Commerce.


    In Civ 4 BtS, with decimal places for Gold and Flask values, and the lovely flooring math that pervades the code (0.99 "rounds" down to 0 aka floors to 0), having fractional values becomes a curse.


    Now, for both Vanilla and BtS, most techs get bonus Flasks (20% for the majority of techs, since every "white arrow" on the F6 tech tree that leads toward a tech will provide an additional 20% of bonus Flasks). But, we're talking about The Wheel, which is a tech that has no arrows pointing to it, so the only possible bonus that we can get is a fraction of 30% for other AIs that we have met already knowing that tech.

    I'm pretty sure that your own Civ "counts" in the total amount of players, and if I am right, then in a game with 9 AI opponents, the biggest bonus that we can get on a tech for other AIs knowing it is 9 / 10 * 30 = 27%. But, with us only knowing Willem, we're at most looking at a 3% bonus, if he has The Wheel, which means that we would have to make 34 total Flasks in one turn (33 * 0.03 = 0.99, which floors to 0, while 34 * 0.03 = 1.02, which floors to 1) for us to get said bonus, and we aren't making that many Flasks yet, so that bonus is irrelevant for our calculations, since, even if Willem knows The Wheel, the bonus Flasks for him knowing it will get floored down to 0.

    Thus, for The Wheel, it's a simpler exercise.

    Taking our test game's T30, 2800 BC turn as an example:
    Cap = 13 Commerce
    City 2 = 3 Commerce

    Typically, Binary Science is a good way to avoid fractional losses:
    100% Science earns us:
    Cap = 13 Flasks
    City 2 = 3 Flasks
    Free Flask that you get every turn = 1 Flask
    Total = 13 + 3 + 1 = 17 Flasks

    100% Gold earns us almost the opposite:
    Cap = 13 Gold
    City 2 = 3 Gold
    Free Flask that you get every turn = 1 Flask
    Total = 13 + 3 = 16 Gold and 1 Flask (a total of 17 inputs)

    60% Science, an arbitrarily picked number, earns us:
    Cap = 7.8 Flasks and 5.2 Gold
    City 2 = 1.8 Flasks and 1.2 Gold
    Free Flask that you get every turn = 1 Flask
    Total = 7.8 + 1.8 + 1 = 10.6 Flasks and 5.2 + 1.2 = 6.4 Gold
    However, the game doesn't store fractional Flasks or fractional Gold
    Therefore, each number gets floored, so we would earn:
    10.6 -> 10 Flasks and 6.4 -> 6 Gold (a total of 16 inputs)

    What just happened? It turns out that BtS' poorly-designed system just cost the average player 1 Flask or Gold per turn (I think in Civ 4 Vanilla, you would get +1 Gold to account for the missing fractions, so, Cap would be like 7 Flasks and 6 Gold, but I forget if that's right... but, the main point is that BtS rips you off!)

    However, in BtS, if the total fractional amount across all Cities adds up to even numbers, you won't have fractional losses. Observe:

    50% Science earns us:
    Cap = 6.5 Flasks and 6.5 Gold
    City 2 = 1.5 Flasks and 1.5 Gold
    Free Flask that you get every turn = 1 Flask
    Total = 6.5 + 1.5 + 1 = 9.0 Flasks and 6.5 + 1.5 = 8.0 Gold
    9.0 -> 9 Flasks and 8.0 -> 8 Gold (a total of 17 inputs)

    So, going for 50% Science on a turn where we won't get fractional losses beats going for 80% Science on a turn where we will get fractional losses.

    But, is it the right choice to make? Since we don't care when we get The Wheel, but we do care when we get Pottery, actually, after having played out a couple of scenarios, it seems that in this case, we'll want to earn more Gold up front while earning a smaller total amount of Commerce to carry us through to the end of Pottery, rather than going to a 0% or non-fraction-losing-rate later when we earn more Commerce due to having the Gems Mines online and thus earning too much Gold.

    50% could have helped, but in this case, it did not help. :lol: :p


    The short answer is that we actually shouldn't do so. Playing it out shows that going:
    T29 0%
    T30 0%
    T31 100% onward
    works out very nicely for learning Pottery on T39 with a 2-Gold surplus.

    That's, of course, played out with a Capital-steals-the-Wheat on T33 and steals-the-GRiv-Farm-on-T36 approach; if we don't go for that approach, the Science Rates might need to be different on different turns to earn us Pottery that early.


    Do you plan to update the PPP as per the image in message 180, or as per some other variant that you have in mind?
     
  7. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Thanks, Dhoom. Your long answer was above and beyond and clear, but my take away is that I'm going to continue to use binary.
     
  8. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Science Details
    Spoiler :
    You often lose a Flask in between techs due to being "penalized" your "bonus" on the overflow Flasks. Hence, if you can find a way not to earn any overflow Flasks, you'll likely maximize your total Flasks + Gold.

    Say, if Willem knows The Wheel, we won't get a bonus Flask, but our overflow Flasks will fall short by 1... if we have 9 Flasks that should overflow, those will be divided by the bonus...
    i.e. 9 / 1.03 = 8.74, which floors to 8

    So, if Willem knows The Wheel, we'll end up losing 1 Flask, rather than gaining any.

    In Vanilla, for a tech with no obtainable bonus (it's rare for you to have enough Flasks to get a bonus Flask out of a 0.03% bonus at the time that you're researching The Wheel), it totally makes sense to try and get no overflow Flasks and "barely" research the tech, such that non-Binary-Science can actually earn you more total Flasks + Gold.

    But, in BtS, you have to find slider percentages that won't lose you a Gold to fractional flooring, which is tough... so, you have less flexibility. On a turn where you can run 50%, there's a chance of combining that turn with other turns where you can run other non-Binary science sliders to come up with an exact amount of Flasks for learning The Wheel. In this case, I couldn't find such a scenario, so I just "bit the bullet," accepted the fact that we'll lose a Flask if Willem knows The Wheel, and focused on minimizing the remaining Gold in our coffers at the time of learning Pottery... which earns us Pottery 1 turn sooner.

    If we had a different balance in our coffers, that turn of 50% Science might have actually been the right thing to do in order to use up as much as our Gold as possible... it didn't work out in this case, though.

    But, since BtS has those silly fractional values, unless you're going to sit down and do some number crunching, Binary Science is the way to go in BtS.


    All of that said, if there is no way to avoid losing 1 Flask due to being penalized when overflowing Flasks, sometimes the overflow Flasks minus 1 will be enough added on to your next tech's first turn to earn you a bonus Flask...
    Here's an example:
    Say, you make 10 Commerce per turn. You're about to learn Mining and you have met 1 other AI who knows Mining. You earn 11 Flasks for the turn (10 + 1 free Flask, but not a big enough of a bonus to earn you more than 11 Flasks). You only need 6 Flasks to complete research on Mining, so 5 Flasks should overflow, minus whatever bonus you would have earned on those Flasks. Well, depending upon how many AIs are in the game, that could mean you'd have 5 / 1.03 (9 AIs) = 4.85 or perhaps 5 / (30 * 1 / 7 ) = 5 / 1.043? = 4.79... in either case, only 4 Flasks will overflow.

    ? = I'm not sure what value the game ends up picking here in terms of rounding off that fraction

    On your next turn, if you can sustain a 100% Science Rate, you'll earn
    4 overflow Flasks + 10 Flasks from Commerce + 1 free Flask = 15 Flasks

    Well, let's say that you'd picked Bronze Working, and the AI that you have met doesn't know Bronze Working.

    In this case, you earn 15 * 1.2 = 18 Flasks, i.e. 3 bonus Flasks.

    Had you instead had 0 Flasks overflowing, you would have only earned 10 Flasks from Commerce + 1 free Flask = 11 * 1.2 = 13.2 -> 13 Flasks, i.e. 2 bonus Flasks.

    So, in this case, the 4 overflow Flasks can combine with your total Flasks earned to net you an extra bonus Flask, which cancels out the Flask that you lost for having overflow Flasks in the first place. Confused yet? :crazyeye:



    Thus, if you can, try to earn no overflow Flasks, or, if you cannot, try to have enough Gold reserves to run 100% Science on the turn after you learn a tech, so that your overflow Flasks may have a chance of combining with your next turn's Flasks to net you an extra bonus Flask.

    Of course, in BtS, Binary Science (or a slider value that earns you no fractional losses) should be the priority, and only if you won't lose any Commerce to fractional losses then do you consider the possibility of trying to earn exactly the right amount of Flasks to learn a tech or trying to earn an extra bonus Flask on the following turn by staying at a 100% Science if you had some overflow Flasks. I.e. No sense in trying to earn a bonus or avoid losing a Flask if you first are guaranteed to lose 1 Commerce due to fractional losses, as you might not earn the bonus, but you will lose that fractional Commerce.
     
  9. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    I'm working on playing out the approach which I was working on previously... so far, I have until T35 documented... I'll play ahead to T40 and update this message once I have it.

    For now, here are some screenshots and the saved game.

    As you can see, I've fallen in love with neilmeister's idea of a fast Worker 3 (originally, I wasn't sure what he'd do, as we won't have The Wheel when he comes out, but improving the capital's GH For into a GH Mine makes good sense).

    Therefore, this run is not going to be appear to be significantly different until we actually start growing the Cap, so I don't expect to see much of a difference when comparing the T35 saved games, which I can try to do later, or perhaps compare the T40 ones, once I've finished running through until T40.

    Spoiler :




    What's not pictured is that on T31, the Scout could have moved 1N, since Warrior 1 takes over the duty of spawn-busting the GH For that is 3W of the northernmost Gems (the G Riv Gems). Again, such details are all dependent upon where Barbs appear.


    EDIT: Do you have any thoughts on what Workers 1 and 2 should do on T39, after Roading the Gems square? I see in the T40 saved game that we've started building Roads... perhaps we want one of those Workers to move directly to the GH For that is 2W of City 2 and start Mining it, for a Chop that will go into City 3's Granary?

    Another idea might be to build Road portions that are 1NE and 2N of City 3's Crab, to save City 3's Settler a turn in getting to the City 3 location.


    EDIT 2: Some more Observations
    I think that Worker 3 is going to want to build a partial Farm on the G Riv that is 1SW of the capital for 3 turns, so that we complete the GH Mine on Turn 43. I suppose that it could also be a partial Cottage instead of a partial Farm. EDIT: Not true, as we don't yet know Pottery.

    With the GH Mine being completed on T43 instead of T42, we can complete the Granary within 1 turn after putting in 2 turns' worth of Hammers into the Settler. We'll then regrow City 1 to Size 4 within a span of 2 turns, earning ourselves a full Granary.

    Writing will come on T46... we're 8 Flasks short of T45, so I don't think that we'll be able to improve upon that date.

    After that GH Mine that is 2S of City 1, for Worker 3, we'll need to decide if we're going to put a Chop into the Library or just Hammers from the Deer and Mines... it would probably be a good idea to 1-pop-whip the Library, so that we can hire 2 Scientists while still working good squares that much quicker.

    Pottery coming in on T39 instead of T40 didn't help much, as I wanted to finish off our 2 Work Boats anyway.

    Workers 1 and 2... I think that one of them is going to have to partially Chop the GH For that is 1SW of City 2, so that when Writing comes in, we can finish that Chop.

    The other one should probably build 2 Roads for Settler 3, on the Grassland squares 1NE and 2N of City 3's Crab.

    I used the Work Boat from City 2 to net City 3's Crab, but City 1's Work Boat would arrive on time thanks to putting in 2 turns into Settler 3 before 3-pop-whipping it. That way, City 2's Work Boat can go exploring. I imagine that it will go 1SE and then due east from there.

    City 3 gets settled on T45, just as the Crab gets Netted, bringing our total Maintenance up to 8 (including a Unit Cost of 1).


    EDIT 3: The Comparison
    Message 174
    T40, 2400 BC
    Cap
    Size 5, 1/30 Food
    3 overflow H

    City 2
    Size 3, 11/26 Food
    1 overflow H

    32 overflow Flasks... hard to compare due to bonus Flasks, so we'll get them both to 35 Flasks on T41 with 10% from this save and 90% from the other save, so that both saves equally lose 1 Flask to fractional losses
    9 Gold

    3 Workers
    4 Warrior
    2 Work Boats

    Total Food: 1 + 11 + 24 for Size 3 City 2 = 36
    Total Hammers: 3 + 1 + 30 for Work Boat 2 = 34
    Total Gold with 35 Flasks on T41: 31


    Message 189
    T40, 2400 BC
    Cap
    Size 5, 22/30 Food
    25/30 H in a Work Boat

    City 2
    Size 2, 19/24 Food
    1 overflow H

    2 Flasks in Writing
    29 Gold

    3 Workers
    4 Warrior
    1 Work Boat


    Total Food: 22 + 19 = 41
    Total Hammers: 25 + 1 = 26
    Total Gold with 35 Flasks on T41: 28

    So, 5 more Food, 8 less Hammers, and 3 less Commerce.

    We're obviously earning 1F and 1C less per turn by not growing City 2 faster (since it means less turns of working a 3F + 1C G Riv Farm for a net +1F and +1C), and we focused on growth in the capital, working the 4-input 3F + 1C G Riv Farm instead of the 5-input 1F + 3H + 1C GH Riv Mine.

    But, does this sacrifice help us out? I think that it does. In 1 turn, the capital will grow to Size 6, where it can work the Fur at Size 6 for 2 turns, making back at least 2H + 2C, if not more from delaying the whipping action.

    Meanwhile, we can 3-pop-whip the Settler instead of 2-pop-whipping it, saving us a Forest for The Great Lighthouse.

    We'll also end up with a one-turn Granary and can regrow to Size 4 with a full Granary on T47.

    City 3 will come slightly later, as we'll intentionally delay whipping the Settler in order to get a 3-pop-whip with good overflow Hammers for our Granary.

    With the capital needing to:
    Build Settler 3
    Build a Granary
    Build a Library
    Hire 2 Scientists (I don't foresee City 2 doing that easily anytime soon, nor City 3)
    Build a Lighthouse
    Build The Great Lighthouse

    I think that it's clear that we need to keep focusing our Food and production in the Capital, especially with our early Whipping Unhappiness wearing off and our +1 Happiness from the Gems Resource.

    That all starts with:
    T33 Cap steals the Wheat
    T36 Cap steals the G Riv Farm



    EDIT 4: Now, let's see if we can figure out which Science Rate is better, since learning Pottery on T39 didn't really do anything for us.

    The comparison gets harder once Message 174 grows City 2 to Size 3, so looking at the T35 saved games and getting them both to about as close as possible...

    Message 174
    T35, 2600 BC
    0 overflow Flasks
    2 Gold

    T35 0% Science

    T36, 2560 BC
    1 Flask in Pottery
    21 Gold


    Message 189
    T35, 2600 BC
    83 / 97 Flasks in The Wheel
    14 Gold

    T35 60% Science, losing a Gold due to fractions, but used for comparison we can just add 1 Gold back:

    T36, 2560 BC
    0 Flasks in Pottery
    19 + 1 = 20 Gold

    So... AHA! Since we don't need Pottery on T39, we're actually BETTER OFF with a Science Rate of 50% on T30!
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    So, I'm pretty happy with the PPP.

    The Science Rates, as written, are great!

    The build orders look great!

    Of course, no matter what we prepare for, we'll still have unknowns from the Barbs.

    Here are a couple of minor outstanding changes:
    1. Stealing the Wheat
    T33 Cap = Wheat + Deer + Crab
    T33 City 2 = Gems + G Riv Farm

    2. Not exploring with the Scout, but moving War 1 out of our capital on T28, and thereby not moving a Warrior out of the capital on T34
    So, something like:
    T28
    War 1 wakes up and moves 1NW G Riv (1NW of the Cap)
    Scout moves 1W GH Riv For (1NW of the G Riv For Gems)

    I'd be fine with the Scout staying on that GH For Riv square, for defensive purposes until all Wolves are likely to be automatically removed from the map, then being able to inch northward by 1 move per turn as early as T30, as far as 2N of there (aka 1E of the G Corn) but later than T30 is encouraged if we think that Barb Animals are still around.

    3. I still think that we're best off moving Warriors 1 and 2 as pictured in Message 180, aka:
    Spoiler :

    so that we won't have to risk moving a Warrior to a flat Grassland square adjacent to an unrevealed G Cow.

    EDIT: 4. On T33, Worker 3 moves 1SW and partially Cottages for 3 turns, such that we'll move to the GH For (2S of the Cap) on T36


    Good luck against the Barbs! :goodjob:
     
  11. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Direct comparisons are of course hard.
    I am not always convinced it should be a pure numbers based comparison, but it is probably the best we can do.

    I played mine out to t45 and ran the comparisons on that against your t45 save (I used my original t40 save, so there is still a beaker to be saved in there!)

    I viewed the cities missions a little differently, I see City 2 taking back the Wheat once it grows back to pop 3 after the 2 pop lib whip, and it will be providing the specialists. The capital will be working all its hammer tiles (and cottages) while it builds the GLH.


    At t45

    Grow city 2 with wheat
    181 beakers in Writing, 10 gold in the bank
    Cap pop 3, 21/26 food, 56/60 hammers in granary (this has a chop in it that Dhooms does not), 7t whip unhappiness
    City 2 pop 4, 0/28 food, 36/60 hammers in granary (4t to finish)
    City 3 pop 1, 4/22 food, 1/60 hammers in granary

    Grow Capital
    187 beakers in Writing, 5 gold in the bank
    Cap pop 3, 7/26 food, granary finished, 0 hammers in WB, 8t whip unhappiness
    City 2 pop 3, 13/26 food, 16/60 hammers in granary (if GHF mined, then 36/60 which is the same as mine)
    City 3 pop 1, 0/22 food, 0/60 hammers in granary

    Comparisons
    In grow-cap-first:

    - Gold & beakers are the same

    - Capital still has 1 forest that is not there in mine.

    - Capital has swapped 14 food, for 4 hammers (to finish the granary 1t earlier, which will therefore also 'save' an additional 5f on t46, so in effect it is a swap of 9f for 4h. This swap of food for hammers would normally be great, but it occurs when we have nothing to build other than the 2nd exploring WB, in both tests the capital starts the Lib on t46, but in my test the Cap is in a better position to whip it earlier, as it has 9 more food in its granary, and 1 less turn of whip angst. (this will start to matter once we whip the Lib and then whip the lighthouse into GLH)

    - City 2 is 1 pop smaller, and will 2 pop whip the Lib on about t54, as opposed to t50 in mine.

    - City 3 is 1 turn slower than in my test save



    Worker micro
    Worker 1& 2 should probably split after roading the gems. 1 goes to road the other gems and the other roads the GHF SW of city 2. This allows worker 1 to return to the GHF and help mine it. After that the goal is to slowly move the workers west, while getting maximum efficiency out of them, hence 1SW of GH mine and road, then move to 1N of city 3 and farm.... The farm is finshed 1t before city 3 pops borders, allowing the workers to move and mine the gems. The roads aren't necessary, but they are essentially free, as they allow the workers to get into position while still using worker turns.

    I agree about cottaging the capital... my worker 3 is doing this in the attached t45 save. (though after the GHF mine)

    Fogbusting scouts & warriors
    Completely agree with your plan, it is definitely the wisest move
     
  12. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    :thanx: for all the hard work thus far. You two are amazing!

    I am a bit confused, are you still playing neil? If so, are you heading for Pottery and then stopping, which would be fine. I am not on a computer that will load the game, so sorry I cannot look at the save atm.

    I think Htadus only has the weekend to play if he is up next, so I am trying to figure out where we are roster-wise? :crazyeye:
     
  13. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Nice work!

    It feels a little difficult to help test, you two are so deep into it. I'm not sure I can catch to even figure out where to contribute. However, I do have time this weekend... if you want to direct me to some specific scenarios to test, I'd be happy to chip in.
     
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    The PPP up until T33 is something that we've nailed down; I'm pretty sure that if I reran the Message 189 tests, we'd gain +1 or +2 total Commerce, since the 50% Science Rate approach does seem to come out ahead from the comparison that I did.

    Certainly, other possibilities exist, such as trying to get Settler 3 out prior to Worker 3, but I think that neilmeister and I are both happy with getting out Worker 3 earlier, so that we can make at least one Forest Chop.


    One area that needs to be worked out is what to do with Workers 1 and 2 after they Mine the second Gems Mine and then build a Road on the first Gems Mine (the non-Riverside one).

    I think that I know what I'd probably do, though, which is:
    - Prepare to Chop the GH For that is 1SW of City 2, probably also building a Road on that square to be able to finish the Chop more easily later; we could also pre-Mine that square
    - Build a Road 1NE of City 3's Crab (to allow for City 3 to be settled at Cow-1E 1 turn sooner)
    - Build a Road 2N of City 3's Crab (to allow for City 3 to be settled at Cow-1E 1 turn sooner)
    - Work on Pre-Chopping the 3rd Gems Mine
    - Possibly Road the 3rd Gems Mine
    Possibly Road another square, such as the G Riv 1NE of the G Cow or the GH For 2W of City 2


    We definitely need to figure out which City should use the Wheat on T33.

    My inspiration is from a recent message that I read in either the General Discussions forum or Strategy & Tips forum, from a highly-respected player, who said something like:
    If you're building your Granary after you've grown your City to Size 4, you've already built it way too late.

    Now, that comment was meant relative to a new City being built, such that you should aim to try to put at least one Chop into a Granary, rather than growing to Size 4 and 2-pop-whipping it, as every time that you grow a City without having a Granary in it, you're losing out on Food.

    Of course, in the early game, you have no choice... you don't sit there at Size 1 just because you haven't unlocked Pottery yet.

    But, what I do see with the Message 191 saved game is that both Cities are growing before completing their Granaries.


    Now, as I said before, if you are growing a lot, you still grow, even without a Granary, but after whipping our Settler 3, we really should get our Granary completed before growing the capital to Size 4.


    What may not be visible is that I was having City 2 steal the Wheat during the 3 turns that Cap was working on Settler 3, so as to maximize the use of our Wheat by trying to always put it into Cities that are growing.



    Anyway, try playing out both T45 saved games for a few turns just to see how the Granaries work... in Message 191, we complete the Granary such that 0 Food gets stored in it, but in Message 189, 13 Food will get stored in the Granary.

    That difference of 13 Food means, in theory, being able to work other squares in place of earning that 13 Food (i.e. getting more Commerce or Hammers), effectively maximizing the use of the Granary.


    I'd say that we could play up to T33 at any time, as that's where we diverge on what to do in terms of the Wheat and Worker 3 (just don't move Worker 3 yet).
     
  15. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    OK, will play to t33 now, using the PPP from several pages back :) with Dhooms fogbusting plan.... then I will come back to continue the discussion.
     
  16. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Turn Report

    t29
    move scout 1N, move caps warrior NW

    t30
    we have 1 beaker already in Wheel !
    Gems founded, steals wheat

    t32
    scout sees lion, moves 1W

    t33
    lion follows scout
    we meet.........Shaka. Awesome, second best techer in the game after Mansa :hammer2:
    Spoiler :


    Game paused & uploaded, linked here
    Worker 3 NOT moved yet this turn
    Scout NOT moved yet this turn

    Session log:
    Spoiler :
    Here is your Session Turn Log from 2880 BC to 2680 BC:

    Turn 28, 2880 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
    Turn 28, 2880 BC: Pericles adopts Slavery!
    Turn 28, 2880 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

    Turn 29, 2840 BC: Gems has been founded.
    Turn 29, 2840 BC: You have trained a Worker in X-opolis. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

    Turn 31, 2760 BC: X-opolis can hurry Worker for 1⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.

    Turn 32, 2720 BC: Gems will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
    Turn 32, 2720 BC: You have trained a Worker in X-opolis. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

    Turn 33, 2680 BC: Gems has grown to size 2.
    Turn 33, 2680 BC: Gems can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
    Turn 33, 2680 BC: The borders of Gems are about to expand.
     
  17. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I have continued my saves out to t50 & t55, they are not micro perfect (mostly workers), but they are tight enough

    Can you please do the same with yours so we can compare.

    Have you played your test out long enough to get both the first GS & GLH?
     
  18. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    13,408
    I can play the game out further, but it will be about a day before I'll have the time to do so.

    Yeah, we should get a free Flask per turn even when in Anarchy.

    Nice work so far! :)
     
  19. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Looking good, neil.

    Agree with the comment regarding the great efficiency of early granaries. I try to get one built when the food bin is half (or nearly half) full at either size one or two whenever possible.
     
  20. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Plymouth, MA
    Should I disappear, keep up the good work. Expecting a blizzard here starting tomorrow afternoon through Wednesday afternoon. Predictions are for 2-feet of snow and winds gusting to 60 MPH. The coastline is supposed to take a major hit and we only live a mile from the beach. :eek:

    Time for me to :hide: under my bed... :shifty:
     

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