SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

    Nov 13, 2005
    West Chester, PA
    Stay warm Leif!!! I normally travel to Long Island... they are calling for similar blizzard conditions there (20-30 inches). I canceled for next week, no way I'm going anywhere near it. In my area they are calling for 6-12 inches... that is more than enough for me.

    I guess I don't have your Nordic blood ;).
  2. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2001
    Tuckasegee, NC
    Sounds like you may have need of a generator, leif, if your Nordic blood isn't running hot. Take your computer and a flashlight under the bed with you.
  3. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2003
    Plymouth, MA
    Thanks for the well wishes.

    You made a wise decision. Just saw a press conference from the Mayor of NYC and he is telling everyone to just stay home and hunker down with plenty of food and water.

    Think the big problem will be the wind, they are forecasting 40 to 50 MPH winds with gusts to 80 MPH. That will take down power lines laden with snow and the crews cannot really work on them again until the winds die down. So we went out and got food and fuel today for our generators. Extra maintenance tomorrow for them and the snow blower. Then it'll be hide somewhere warm. :thumbsup:

    Blood doesn't matter as I cannot go anywhere. Mother has Alzheimers and we have to be here to keep her warm and fed, she can no longer take care of herself. The worst part will be walking from our house to hers at night in the heart of the storm. It'll all be OK, just not a lot of fun.

    Got two generators. :)
    Keeping them running will be the trick. :mischief:
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Good luck in making it through those troubling times!

    I have updated the test game for those who aren't limited to using a power generator.

    EDIT: Updated the test game slightly since I first uploaded it.

    Attached Files:

  5. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    For those who don't have saved game access, here's essentially what we're trying to decide between.

    Do we focus on growth in City 2, getting it growing faster so that it can work more squares?

    Or, do we focus growth in City 1, growing faster so that we can put the Food in our only production City (City 1) for better whipping? Note that the way that our Unhappiness works out, we can grow to Size 6 without encountering any Unhappiness by maximizing growth in City 1 due to:
    - A Military Police unit arriving next turn
    - A Gems Mine being Roaded just as we hit Unhappiness at Size 5
    - The Whipping Unhappiness wearing off before we reach Size 6

    Both ideas have merit.

    The part that I struggle with is that City 2 can't easily work 2 Gems Mines and hire 2 Scientists at the same time without somehow managing to grow to Size 5 and somehow building a Library and a Granary (without the Granary, growing to Size 5 would be incredibly painful). So, I don't really see City 2 as being able to offload the burden of generating our first Great Scientist, meaning that the capital has to do it all (Settler 3 + Granary + Library + generate a Great Scientist + Great Lighthouse), thus the sooner that the capital grows, the quicker it can get through those tasks.

    Anyway, I'll have to play out the scenario where City 1 focuses more on growth to see how we compare post-Granary time. EDIT: Let's do the nearly-impossible and get our Great Scientist in City 2... see 2 messages below.

    For now, here are some images of the T33 situation and the growth speeds of the two Cities based on one City or the other City using the Wheat:
    Spoiler :
    Grow City 2 Faster Scenario

    Grow City 1 Faster Scenario

    There is also certainly room for a third option, where City 2 takes the Wheat initially to grow to Size 3 faster, but we'd then either have to Chop a Forest into Settler 3 (and we don't have a lot of Forests) or else would have to delay the founding of City 3 by 3-pop-whipping City 1 a bit later. Since we haven't played it out, that's also a scenario that someone might want to try.

    Yet another scenario might have City 1 growing while working the G Riv Farm for 4 turns to grow (or for 3 turns, stealing the Wheat on the 3rd turn, but then delaying when we get to Size 6).

    Basically, we have a few options available beyond the two main lines that we're discussing and there might or might not be a better scenario if someone has the time to test for it.

    Great Scientist out of City 2?
    EDIT: If we were going to try to offload the Great-Scientist-generation to City 2, we would need to be at Size 4 with 16 / 28 Food in the Foodbox (or, Size 15 with 1 turn of having access to the G Riv Farm). We'd need at a least a Library, which costs us 45 Hammers. Technically, we could try to put 2 Chops into said Library and forget being able to build a Granary in time to help.

    That means somehow gaining:
    24 - 2 = 22 Food (growth to Size 3)
    26 Food (growth to Size 4)
    16 Food (growth to be able to hire 2 Scientists while working 2 Gems Mines without the City shrinking 1 population point, since a Great Scientist tasks 9 turns to be generated--8 turns of 2 Scientists and 1 turn of 1 Scientist... we earn 6 GPP / Scientist... 17 turns * 6 GPP = 8 turns * 12 GPP + 1 turn * 6 GPP = 102 GPP). We could reduce that total to 15 Food required if we worked the G Riv Farm + 1 Scientist on a turn that wasn't the last turn, thereby earning the 16th Food after starting to hire the Scientists.

    So, we need 22 + 26 + 15 = 63 Food

    We will make either 6, 3, or 2 Food surplus, depending upon which squares we work (technically up to 7 Food per turn for a short bit if the City is at Size 4 working 2 Gems Mines, the Wheat, and the G Riv Farm, or 4 Food per turn if we grow to Size 4 and have a second G Riv Farm to work).

    It would certainly make for a far more useful City 2 if we can get it to offload the burden of generating our first Great Scientist. On the plus side, we wouldn't quite have to grow the City to Size 5 without a Granary, but we do basically need to get the Granary much later to make this approach work... it's probably a worthwhile approach to target, though, so that the capital can better focus its efforts on The Great Lighthouse.

    EDIT: Messing with other teams' heads
    At some point, a few turns after learning Writing, we should upload 2 saved games on the same turn as each other, to let the other teams think that we gifted Willem a super-early Worker... unless we actually end up doing exactly that anyway. ;)
  6. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

    Dec 16, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    I am not going to be able to contribute much due to RL. I wish I had the time to make a convincing argument for the second city by the cow. And that would have eliminate the need to decide if the capital should grow using the wheat or if the gem city use it. And many other decision. Anyways, good luck with the game guys.

    And stay warm leif and Hawk. I recently talked my way out of spending 2-3 week in Ogdensburg for my company. My replacement claimed it was -10 before the wind chill factors in. Burrr.
  7. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Okay, instead of trying to "prove" which approach was better, I went with the idea of doing a middle-of-the-road approach, to see if I could hit our target for City 2.

    The micro is tight, but it looks like we can make it work.

    It would be nice if we could add in more details (what the Workers do, what other units might do for the next 3 to 5 turns or so), then double-check that I didn't make a mistake, but it looks like we can, with 2 Forest Chops, get just enough Food and Hammers to complete City 2's Library in time for it to get a Great Scientist ASAP after Writing is learned.

    Cap: GH Riv Mine -> G Riv Farm
    1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm
    2: Wheat + Gems

    Cap: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    City 2: Wheat -> G Riv Farm
    1: Deer + Crab + Wheat
    2: G Riv Farm + Gems (14 / 24 F)

    Cap Size 4: Add the Fur
    Cap: Wheat -> G Riv Farm
    City 2: G Riv Farm -> Wheat

    2nd Gems Mine gets Mined
    Cap: G Riv Farm -> Wheat, Fur -> G Riv Farm
    City 2: Wheat -> Gems Mine

    Cap: G Riv Farm -> Fur
    City 2 has barely hit Size 3 (1 / 26 F): Add G Riv Farm
    Workers move 1E to Farm a G Riv for City 2

    Cap has barely hit Size 5 (2 / 30 F)
    i. This fact means reaching Size 5 one turn slower than focusing on growth in Cap, which means that we don't need the Gems' Happiness right away
    ii. This fact means reaching Size 5 one turn faster than focusing on growth in City 2
    City 2 has 4 / 26 F
    Cap: Add GH Riv Mine

    G Riv Farm for City 2 should be completed
    Cap: Fur -> G Riv Farm (11 / 30 F, +10 F per turn, growth in 2 turns, in time to Road the Gems Mine that is 1N of City 2, and which is growth to Size 6 one turn slower than maximizing growth in Cap, so Settler 3 will come out 1 turn later; Work Boat in 1 turn at the same time as maximizing growth in Cap)
    City 2: southern G Riv Farm -> northern G Riv Farm

    City 1 can build the Granary for a turn while growing to Size 6 and thus we can complete the GH For's Mine to put that Forest into the Granary

    City 2 has 13 / 26 F
    Cap: Wheat -> GH Mine
    Cap: Starts to build Settler 3
    City 2: G Riv Farm -> Wheat (growth in 3 turns)

    Cap: 3-pop-whip Settler 3
    Cap: Works Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine
    City 2 has 25 / 26 F

    City 2 is Size 4 with 5 / 28 F
    Settler 3 exists
    Cap has 1 Food and will put 57 / 60 H in the Granary by working Deer + Crab + GH Riv Mine or 60 H in the Granary by working the Deer + GH Riv Mine + GH Mine
    Assuming that City 2 uses the Wheat for this 1 turn, that gives us +7 = 12 F, then +4 when working 2 Gems + 2 G Riv Farms = 16 for the start of T47, while T46 is when we are scheduled to learn Writing. If we can then put 2 Chops into City 2's Library on T46 or T47, it will be completed at the end of T47 and we can hire 2 Scientists while working 2 Gems Mines on T48 with just BARELY enough Food (1 extra) to make it all work beautifully (unless I messed up the math somewhere).

    So, yeah... I think that we have our solution... delay City 3 slightly but then we can get our Great Scientist out of City 2 ASAP. Of course, spawn-busting is going to be key, as we can't afford to have to whip a Warrior out of City 2 in order for this tight micro to work.

    Obviously, I don't have a saved game as I wasn't really doing Worker actions and was just focusing on what our Cities did, but at least we now have some target micro to work with that provides a good balance of growing both Cities.

    That's some very turn-by-turn intensive micro and it can blow up in our faces if we mismanage the Barbs, so effective spawn-busting is still going to be so key that I don't think we'll be exploring with our Scout for quite some time. If we end up wtih an early Academy + The Great Lighthouse, all of that micro and the lack of exploration will be worth it, though (and a dead Scout can't explore, so I don't feel like we necessarily missed out compared to teams who may have run off exploring and thereby likely let their Scouts die).

    Thus, we might end up playing a few turns at a time once we've got the details worked out, so that as a team, we can discuss the spawn-busting and Barb defence.

    Somewhere in there, our Workers will ideally build Roads on the Grassland squares 1NE and 2N of City 3's Crab before Settler 3 needs to walk past there (saving us a turn on settling at Cow-1E), so our Worker actions are going to be tight and I don't think that we'll be able to do extra Worker actions, such as building a Road on the G Riv Gems Mine (until we map out a coastal Trade Network to an AI and have Sailing, we won't need such a Road anyway).

    Delaying City 3 slightly has the added benefit of possibly delaying the time when the Barbs rush us.

    I don't know about you guys, but I'm super excited. Worst case, I made a mistake and we'll be short on Food, getting our City 2 Great Scientist 1 turn later, which is already going to be really great, as it frees up the Cap to focus on getting The Great Lighthouse.
  8. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

    Apr 7, 2006
    I'm trying hard to follow Wheatons Law, but... I so don't get why these things get rebuild every time they get blown over. Same with the wooden houses in tornado alley. Why not invest once into something solid and be done with the problem forever? Sorry, I just can't answer that question myself and it makes me mad to see all that damage over there again and again.

    Good luck Leif. Lets hope all you get is a nice opportunity to build a snowman :)
  9. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Jan 7, 2010
    Just wanted to pop in and say hi.

    Still overrun by work. Will need to go away on work trips both this and next week.

    I'm starting to feel bad for not contributing but I'm hoping I will come with fresh energy once our current players run out of steam.
  10. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

    Nov 13, 2005
    West Chester, PA
    I'll see if I can improve on your test this evening. I think the biggest challenge is stepping back to think of any broader opportunities and not getting tunnel visioned into micro. Good news is I see you two have been getting out of the box quite a bit. :goodjob:
  11. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

    Nov 13, 2005
    West Chester, PA
    Micro looks good.

    Once we chop, city 2 will go unhealthy at pop 5 from forest loss. The wheat still provides enough food to run 2 gems and 2 scientists, but I would recommend the worker near the capital road the deer after his mine/chop is complete. May as well get the full food benefit in city 2.
  12. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Nice effort Dhoom, running through the micro now....


    Had only 1 slight problem, I was 1 hammer short on t40 to finish the WB, and also I sent the worker 3 direct to the GHF and mined, it finished on t40, so I switched to Granary on t40, finished mine, switched back to WB on t41 (working the mine, not the furs), finished WB on t42 & started settler.
    Not sure if I messed up.

    I do like it though, it means the Cap can build the GLH as fast as it can manage without needing to worry about scientists. If we can squeeze out Sailing on t50, then I would be very tempted to whip the Lib in the Cap on t49. this might be achievable with 50% research on a single turn somewhere.... I will try again.

    I have filled in the micro for the workers to fit what you have done.

    C1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm
    C2: Wheat + Gems
    W3: moves 2S to GHF (2S of Cap)

    C1: Warrior out & starts WB
    W2: move to riverside gems
    W3: mines GHF (2S of Cap)

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat
    C2: G Riv Farm + Gems
    W2: chop riverside gems

    C1: Pop 4, Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm + Fur
    C2: Wheat + Gems, WB out & starts warrior
    W1 & W2: mine riverside gems
    Science: 0%. Wheel out, start Pottery

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems
    Science: 100%

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + Fur (not the mine????)
    C2: Pop 3, 2 Gems + G Riv Farm
    W1 & W2: move 1E & farm

    C1: Pop 5, Deer + Crab + Wheat + Fur + Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + G Riv Farm

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm + Mine (this matches your food), switch to Granary
    C2: 2 Gems + G Riv Farm, warrior out & start Granary
    W1: move 1S & road gems
    W3: finish mine 2S of Cap
    Science: 100%. Pottery out, start Writing

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm + Mine, switch back to WB
    C2: 2 Gems + G Riv Farm
    W1: move to the GHF SW of C2
    W2: move 1S & road gems
    W3: move to deer

    C1: Pop 6, Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm + 2 Mines + Furs, finish WB & start settler
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat
    W1: road GHF SW of C2
    W2: move to riverside gems & road
    W3: road deer

    C1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm + 2 Mines + Furs
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat
    W2: move to GHF SW of C2 & chop
    Science: 90% ?????

    C1: WHIP, Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat
    W1: move to GHF 2W of C2
    W2: move to GHF SW of C2 & chop
    W3: road SW of C1 (1N of deer)

    C1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm, settler out & resume granary
    C2: Pop4, 2 Gems + Wheat + G Riv Farm
    W1: chop GHF 2W of C2
    Science: 0%, Writing finished, start Sailing

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat, granary finished & start Library
    C2: 2 Gems + 2 G Riv Farm, switch to library
    W3: cottage SW of C1
    Science: 100%

    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems + 2 G Riv Farm
    C3: city founded, work crabs, reassign GHF back to C2!!!!!
    W2: road SW of mine (joins C2 & C3)

    C1: Pop 4, Deer + Crab + Wheat + Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + 2 scientists, Library finished & resume granary
    W2: NW to gems
  13. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

    Nov 13, 2005
    West Chester, PA
    I had the same issue. I simply left the WB in the queue, put the chop into it and let the hammers overflow into the granary. Pretty much the same thing, but I get an extra turn of WB scouting.
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Thanks for the tag-team help! I tried to put in more time last night but I fell asleep at the computer, haha.

    Science Rates
    I hadn't worked out the Science Rates yet... if we're doing 2 turns of 90%, perhaps we should instead try a turn of 0% at a time when we earn more Commerce, OR perhaps another turn of 50% now while we still have non-fractional Flask + Gold values at a 50% Science Rate, to earn us just a little bit more Gold to keep our Science Rate up to 100%, when needed.

    EDIT: There can easily be other times pre-Libraries when a 50% Science Rate can work... basically, when both Cities make an even number of Commerce or when both Cities make an odd amount of Commerce, the total across Cities will be whole numbers (non-fractional values).

    Depending upon our bonus Flasks (0% for The Wheel, 40% for Pottery, 20% for Writing, plus a possible slightly higher number for Pottery if another AI that we have met also knows said tech), it may or may not be advantageous in terms of bonus Flasks to run at a non-100% Science Rate.

    So, if we, say, make 24 total Commerce, that amount is a good number to get as 100% Science, as 24 + 1 free Flask = 25, which leads to good multipliers for 20% and 40%.

    But, if, say, we make 22 total Commerce, then earning either 22 + 1 or 11 + 1 will not bring us up to the next multiple of 5, so that time is a good opportunity to run a 50% Science rate, if doing so gets us a better total amount of Gold.

    Meanwhile, say, if we make 28 total Commerce, that amount +1 free Flask just misses out on a multiple of 5, while half of 28 = 14 and 14 + 1 just barely earns a multiple of 5, meaning that over the course of 2 turns where we need some Gold, we could either earn:
    29 Flasks on one turn, of which we'd have floor ( 29 / 5 ) = 25 / 5 = 5 Flasks that can get a bonus
    1 Flask and 28 Gold on another turn
    Total 29 + 5 + 1 = 35 Flasks & 28 Gold


    15 Flasks and 14 Gold on one turn, of which we'd have floor ( 15 / 5 ) = 15 / 5 = 3 Flasks that can get a bonus
    15 Flasks and 14 Gold on another turn, of which we'd have floor ( 15 / 5 ) = 15 / 5 = 3 Flasks that can get a bonus
    Total 15 + 3 + 15 + 3 = 36 Flasks & 14 + 14 = 28 Gold

    I.e. In this example, 2 turns of 50% Science beat 1 turn of 100% Science and 1 turn of 0% Science. With our total Commerce often changing turn to turn, there's an opportunity to look for such a gain if we write down how much total Commerce each City produces on each turn.

    What I'm not sure about is how the bonus for knowing AIs gets factored in... is the bonus added to the 20% or 40%? Or, is the bonus calculated separately and must be large enough to earn at least 1 Flask otherwise it gets floored to 0 Flasks?

    The answer could probably be derived through experiments, code-diving, or simply searching the forums and finding the math of a previous code-diver.

    Worker 3
    Yeah, I have to say that I like The-Hawk's idea for the GH For, so that we can move Worker 3 directly to the GH For and start Mining right away, then finish the Work Boat with the Chop on T40 and then overflow into the Granary on T41 while still growing to Size 6.

    Fur vs GH Riv Mine
    Technically, we want 2 things:
    1. Enough Food to grow the Cap to Size 6 within a reasonable time frame
    2. Enough Hammers in the Granary to complete it within a reasonable time frame relative to our Food in our Cap

    It can be argued that when regrowing after whipping, The Fur's 1 Food is worth more than the GH Riv Mine's 2 H, as long as we have Happiness room to grow into, and this fact becomes even more true after getting a Granary. That's why G Riv Farms are one of the little "secrets" of top players, as they are actually quite strong support squares.

    Of course, you have to actually either spend more time at a larger City Size to realise the gains from growing faster or you have to whip to realise the "banked Hammers" by growing faster. And, it's this type of a case where the F + H + C totals break down, at least until you play a game out far enough.

    Anyway, in terms of the timing of completing the Granary at Size 3, we have a couple of options. The key points are that:
    1. We won't earn any Food in the Granary until the turn after it is completed. So, if we'll put the 60th Hammer into the Granary on Turn X, at the start of Turn X + 1, the Granary will still have been useless to us and it is only the Food that we earn on Turn X + 1 and future turns that can go into the Granary's storage
    2. Any Food that we earn above the total of 26 Food required to grow to Size 4, on the last turn of being at Size 3, CAN go into the Granary's storage, assuming that we haven't already filled up the Granary's storage.
    3. We just need to get 13 Food into the Granary's storage
    4. Since the max Food that we can put into the Granary's storage is 10 per turn, while the next best Food square that we can work after growing only offers us +1 F and +1 C, we're better off being at Size 3 for exactly 2 turns after the Granary gets completed, so that we put 13 F instead of 10 F into the Granary's storage
    5. Since extra Food will help us to regrow to City Sizes larger than 4 that much quicker, there's no gain in trying to be "perfect" and "only" getting 13 Food for those 2 turns at Size 3... we still want to maximize Food for those 2 turns

    So, it's a balancing game... we want just enough Hammers to finish off the Granary such that while we are focusing our Cap on working Food squares, we will complete our Granary and then have exactly 2 turns' worth of working all 3 Food squares while at Size 3.

    But, having extra Food may or may not help us to reach Size 5 sooner.

    Meanwhile, having extra Hammers may or may not help us to complete the Granary sooner.

    So, when looking at Fur vs GH Riv Mine, the question shouldn't be "Shouldn't we work the square that gives us more total inputs?" since the Fur's extra 1 Food can be considered to be roughly equivalent to the GH Riv Mine's 2 Hammers, at least while we have sufficient Happiness room to keep growing. Instead, the question should be more along the lines of "whether +1 F or +2 H will make a difference in terms of the completion of the Granary or in terms of helping us to grow to Size 5 one turn sooner."

    Once we've got some Food and Hammer totals listed for the turns right around the time when we're completing the Granary, we can see if +1 F but -2 H or -1 F + 2 H might make a difference, given that we still need enough Food along the way to not delay growth at any point.

    I may have messed up in either the numbers or my notes, but I recall having 1 Food extra and that 2 more Hammers into the Granary wouldn't have helped, so we probably can't complete the Granary sooner, so then the question becomes whether we can regrow to Size 5 a bit sooner by working the Fur more than the GH Riv Mine without delaying the date of completing the Granary... there might not really be much room to play with, anyway, since I think that we had pretty close to 60 H when completing the Granary. Until we learn Writing, any Hammers earned in excess of completing the Granary may not really be put to an amazing use, perhaps into a partial Work Boat that will get completed later.

    Chances are that there isn't too much room to play with either way.

    Cap Library
    We will earn about 3 Flasks per turn from getting it in the capital, but only after it has been completed. It needs 45 raw Hammers. If we 2-pop-whip it after putting, say, at least 3 Hammers into it, we'll get about 18 overflow Hammers from it. To put those Hammers into a Lighthouse (so that we could 2-pop-whip the Lighthouse when it has less than 30 Hammers in it on the turn before learning Masonry), we'd have to delay whipping the Library such that the Library's Flasks wouldn't contribute to learning Sailing.

    So, there's a bit of a tradeoff there. The other option is to simply get the Library ASAP and put the Library's overflow Hammers into a Work Boat that we'll finish off, so that we can get second exploring Work Boat out (remember that the Work Boat that we'll finish on or about T40 will be used to Net City 3's Crab Resource). While our 2 Cities spend 2 turns completing their Libraries, we can run 0% Science for 2 turns.

    From there, it will be a decision based on what the AIs whom we have met have teched... if we are earning enough Flasks (which we should be with 2 Gems Mines, 2 Libraries, and 2 Scientists... with the option of hiring 4 Scientists for 0 turns just to see how the numbers work), we can determine how many bonus Flasks we'll earn on a tech like Sailing or Masonry to help us find out how many of the AIs we have met know such a tech, and if enough AIs know the techs that we want, we can beeline Alphabet, otherwise we can beeline those techs instead.

    Basically, we can use the game itself to answer the question of "which tech do we research after Writing?"
  15. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007

    I put in my 'mine vs fur' ??? marks as I wrote the micro, as I wanted to remember to check the total food vs hammers. As you said though, neither food nor hammers were affected, but the commerce potentially was, so I do like working the furs.

    I also like chopping into the WB, I was just trying to follow the spirit of your plan as closely as possible.
  16. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    I'm a bit confused by this comment, as we get 1 Commerce from working either the GH Riv Mine or the Fur. Maybe you were talking about working the GH (non-Riv) Mine?

    Good observation. Fortunately, we won't be growing to Size 5 for quite some time, as we'll almost hit Size 5 then shrink down to 1 Food while slow-building a Granary.

    Once the Granary is in, the Wheat will provide +1 Health.

    Of course, once we have:
    1. Sailing
    2. A coastal path mapped out to an AI

    it will be nice to have Resources like the Deer or an additional Gems Mine online... but, until that time, Roading those squares are luxury Worker actions.

    Cap Library, Whipping, a Galley, and The Great Lighthouse
    So, we'll have several options... 2-pop-whip it with overflow, 1-pop-whip it, slow-build it, slow-build it with a Chop, or 1-pop-whip it with a Chop.

    I'm still not sure which one will be right, but we'll need to take our current Unhappiness levels into account at that time to help us to decide.

    Thus, that decision is something that we'll need to figure out for a future turnset.

    We'll also want to decide how to best build The Great Lighthouse.

    City Centre (1) + Deer (2) + GH Riv Mine (3) + GH Mine (3) + Fur (1) only offers us 10 Hammers per turn.

    2-pop-whipping a Lighthouse offers us no additional Hammers other than the Hammers earned each turn that went into the Lighthouse.

    Perhaps 3-pop-whipping additional Settlers will be the way to go (which may mean that whipping the Library might be off of the books, after having already whipped the Lighthouse, or vice versa, if we delay the Library until the turn before learning Sailing).

    The Great Lighthouse goes hand-in-hand with coastal-City REXing, while the capital might as well make use of the Wheat for regrowth + whipping when City 2 is too busy hiring Scientists and working Gems Mines to work the Wheat.

    The idea would be that we'd probably put a similar amount of Hammers into The Great Lighthouse as we would by slow-building it, but would also get some Settlers out of the fact that we focused more on working the Food-heavy squares.

    At some point, we'll want a Galley... the Fur offers us a nice +1 Happiness to make up for a whipping action, but we'll need both a Worker and a Settler before we can make use of said Happiness from the Fur.

    Also, technically, we might feel like we want to Chop the Forest on which we'd settle by the Fur, but it won't earn us a whole lot of Hammers (maybe 9 or so?) since it won't be within our Cultural Borders, so we might also just skip Chopping that Forest and settle sooner, as such a City will also mean +1 Commerce per Trade Route, offering us a net boost in Commerce for settling an extra City.

    If it weren't for our Traits, we would have gone for Sailing earlier, but early Writing is just too strong to pass up given our Trait combo.
  17. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    My bad!

    Agreed, our traits scream at us to build libraries.
  18. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    More Micro Discussions
    Okay, I tried running through most of what was listed in neilmeister's Message 212. I stuck to most of it, but I played around just a little bit, as detailed below.

    What I did notice is that both Willem and Sury have both The Wheel and Pottery, a fact that may or may not be reflected in the real game.

    This item seems to be missing:
    W1: chop riverside gems

    Looks good; for some reason, we seem to get more Flasks this way than, say, the opposite approach of 100% then 0%, even though we have enough Gold reserves for either option. I say "for some reason" because I didn't try to work out the math; it was easier to just let the test game tell me the answer.

    Both Willem and Sury have Pottery in the test game; taking Pottery away from even 1 of them will make Pottery appear to be learned in 4 turns instead of 3 turns at 100% Science on T36, assuming that we don't end up changing any of the Science Rates on turns prior, and I only checked the case with them both knowing The Wheel.

    If it turns out that if at least one of the AIs in the real game doesn't know Pottery, i.e. if it looks like Pottery would take 4 turns instead of 3 turns, perhaps we should stop play at that time, update the test game, and then double-check our chosen Science Rates before playing onward.

    We'll need to stop him from Roading if we want to move him next turn. Technically, it won't matter if we plan to send W1 southward as well, as long as the Road gets completed before W2 moves to that Non-riverside Gems square, but we might as well have W1 stop the Road on T40.

    Finishing off Cap's Work Boat costs us +1 Gold per turn in Unit Cost. So, if we finish it on T40, that leaves us with 10 Gold at -5 Gold per Turn on T41. Once we have 9 total population across our two Cities (in this case, once Cap grows to Size 6), the cost of that extra Work Boat will go away, at least until we whip our Settler. So, we may or may not want to complete that Work Boat via the Chop... if we don't use the Chop, though, then perhaps we'll have to be careful about how many Hammers overflow into a Settler (or maybe it won't matter). In other words, the timing of completing that Work Boat is one more detail to worry about... it may only matter for a difference of 1 Gold prior to learning Writing; depending upon what we do with our Science Rates, that 1 Gold may or may not matter.

    We won't need to Road the Deer for a long time; we should find something else for Worker 3 to do on T41. That could be pre-Chopping, building Cottages, building important Roads, or what-have-you.

    Similarly, we won't need to Road the second Gems Mine for a long time; a Warrior from City 2 won't be able to get to that square any faster and we don't have a coastal path mapped out to an AI yet for Resource-trading purposes.

    We're going to need Worker turns to pre-Chop the GH For squares that are 1SW and 2W of City 2, and it will be nice if we can also get in 4 turns of Roading the Grasslands 1NE and 2N of City 3's Crab. Alternatively, we could have Worker 3 helping out with Roading so that we have a Road at Cap-1NW and at Cap-2NW (aka 1NE of the Crab).

    The Forest to the east of the Fur would give us 10 Hammers in Cap to Chop it.

    It looks like we can have 5 units outside of our Cultural Borders without incurring Unit Supply costs, but we would definitely pay 1 Gold per Turn with 6 units outside of our Cultural Borders.

    T43 seems to be scripted by the AIs for things to happen... 2 AIs founded Cities and another built Stonehenge on that turn (actually, at the end of their T42s).

    Definitely work the GH Riv Farm instead of the G Riv Farm on this turn for +1 Hammer, since we're still building the Settler and all Food + Hammers gets converted into Hammers (G Riv Farm = 3 F -> 3 H; GH Riv Mine = 1 F + 3 H -> 4 H).

    In terms of the Cap's Granary
    I tried out:
    T38 Fur instead of Mine
    T40 Fur instead of Mine
    T41 Fur instead of Mine
    T45 = 3 / 26 Food; Deer + Crab + GH Riv Mine (GH Riv Mine instead of the G Riv Farm) for just enough Hammers into the Granary
    T46 = 8 / 26 Food and a completed Granary
    T48 = 15 / 28 Food at Size 4 and 12 Hammers in a Library

    We should probably try to write down Food and Hammer numbers for T48 for other options, to see how they compare. If you have those numbers from the test run that you already ran, that info would be helpful to see.

    EDIT: Since we already seem to get a nice Flask boost with the listed T36 and T37 Science Rate values, we can probably just pick 1 turn when learning Writing to run a 0% Science Slider. I am pretty sure (not 100% sure) that we'd still get Writing on time... maybe it's worth doing a runthrough where Pottery is removed from both AIs via the World Builder (and from Isabella if she randomly meets us and if she has that tech) and then just picking a turn when teching Writing to go for a 0% Science Slider, and if we still learn Writing on T46 without the bonus Flasks from AIs that we have met knowing Pottery, then we don't really need to be so perfect with our Gold savings and can focus more on the items like the timing of the Worker actions for Roading for Settler 3 and the Fur vs GH Riv Mine usage for Cap's post-Granary T48 values.
  19. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Further Micro Discussions
    It seems that we might be able to squeeze out a turn in terms of our Research. In trying to do a comparison of Food vs Hammers and not really paying much attention to the Science Slider, it does seem that a couple of turns at 90% got us to Writing on T45 instead of on T46.

    However, do note that 2 of our units died, which reduced our costs... that fact plus the AIs knowing Pottery might be required in the real game (we need to test the scenario where our neighbours don't know Pottery)... so, we might still have to live with Writing on T46, but we can try to plan for T45 in terms of our Gold reserves saved up and then worst case, be at non-Binary Science on T45 to finish off Writing on T46.

    Actually, thinking about it some more, we can simply aim to reduce our Unit Costs (delaying completing the Warrior in City 2 to within 1 turn of completion) and then we can target a T45 Writing, as we'd have our needed 15 Food (we'd have 16 Food) at the end of T46, when our Library would get completed.

    We might as well be prepared to Chop our 2 GH For squares at City 2 on T46, which would work for getting the Library completed quickly whether we learn Writing on T45 or T46.
    T39 W1: partially Farm the G Riv (City 2-2N) and STOP
    T39 W2: Farm the G Riv (City 2-2N)

    T40 W1: Move 1S (City 2-1N), partially Road and STOP
    T40 W2: Complete the Farm on the G Riv (City 2-2N)

    T41 W1: Wait for W2
    T41 W2: Move 1S (City 2-1N) and complete the Road
    T41 W1: Now that W2 is done, move to the GH For at City 2-1SW

    IF we think that we can hit Writing on T45, we won't have enough Worker turns to Road the G Riv Gems Mine and Chop both GH Forests, so we'd obviously skip the G Riv Gems Mine and spend 1 of the 2 Worker turns on movement.

    A one-turn-earlier Academy is totally worth investing 1 Worker turn.

    That said, if we won't be able to hit Writing by T45, then we can Road the G Riv Gems Mine, spending 1 Worker turn that would have been lost to movement to Road it. I.e. I finally figured out why you like the G Riv Gems Mine... to earn a Worker turn at the cost of 1 Worker turn, but we can't invest the 1 Worker turn to do so if we are able to hit Writing on T45.

    For Worker 3, we can do the following to settle City 3 one turn sooner than not doing so:
    T40 Finish the GH For Mine
    T41 Move into Cap
    T42 Move to the G Riv 1NW of Cap and Road
    T44 Move to the G 2NW of Cap and Road
    T45 Select the Worker on the G 2NW of Cap and manually complete the Road before Settler 3 moves
    T46 Maybe move to the G Forest that is 2W of Cap and Chop it into the Cap's Library?

    In terms of the Cap's Granary, I also tried this approach, which I like better than focusing on the Fur:
    T38 Mine instead of Fur
    T40 Mine instead of Fur
    T41 Mine instead of Fur
    T45 = Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm (G Riv Farm instead of the GH Riv Mine)
    T46 = 7 / 26 Food, a completed Granary, and 3 overflow Hammers
    T48 = 14 / 28 Food at Size 4 and 18 Hammers in a Library

    The City growth and Granary come at the same time, and regrowth to Sizes 5 and 6 happen at the same time, so we can purely compare the Food vs Hammers.

    We might as well go with this approach and take the 3 base Hammers in place of the 1 Food, as we're going to be running into our Unhappinses cap pretty soon... we'll probably end up slow-building the Library (having Worker 3 put a Chop into it is probably a good idea), then partially build a Settler while we wait for Sailing to come in, then start on a Lighthouse, whipping it on the turn before Masonry comes in.

    It kind of sucks that building a Warrior in City 2 on T40 will cost us 1 Gold per turn... and then our Capital's Work Boat will cost us another 1 Gold per turn.

    So, I'm going to suggest that on T39, City 2 switch to building a Barracks for 1 turn instead of completing our Warrior there. That way, we'll be able to finish off the Warrior if our Scout in the north dies or if there's an emergency, but otherwise, he won't cost us 1 Gold per turn.

    As for Cap's Work Boat... if we need to save 1 Gold at the time, we can decide to complete it on T42 by building the Granary on T40 and finishing off the Work Boat on T41. We won't mess up Settler 3's 3-pop-whipping action and we'll end up with the same Food and Hammers on T48.

    But, completing the Work Boat on T41 would give us a chance to scout out that mysterious Coast square 3SW of Cap for 1 turn while still being able to Net the Crab on T46, when City 3 gets settled.

    So, we need to do another run-through with the changes and with the two AIs not having Pottery, then when it's time to run a non-100% Science Slider, we can World Build ourselves some Gold and figure out how much Gold we'd need to stick at 100% on those last couple of turns, then we can figure out on which turn to earn our Gold at either a 50% or a 0% Science Rate, in an attempt to squeeze out Writing on T45.
  20. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Sounds like some good thinking.

    Sorry if I didn't explain why I was roading the river gems...but you are right it was to maximise the worker efficiency,but agree that saving 1 worker turn is not worthwhile if we can have the Lib 1 turn sooner.

    Also agree about a chop in the capital, all of my runs included it as otherwise I couldnt get Granary, Settler & Library by the time Sailing came in. Though I think I was chopping into the settler.

    I will have a run through this morning

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