SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Good summary, :thanx:

    Looking at the save, now like founding city 3 - 1 east of the cow even more as a production city; 5 grass hills and the food to use them.

    Like the idea of getting city 4 near the furs and, perhaps once we see a bit more, city 5 on the island with the two fish tiles. :yumyum:
     
  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Planned Unit movements:
    Obviously, all of these plans are subject to change as soon as a Barb is revealed. For example, if a Barb gets revealed by Warrior 1, our Scout won't move adjacent to said Barb on T38. The moves below assume the best case of not revealing any Barbs; if a Barb is revealed, we'll scrap the plans and pick new plans; thus, I won't write the plans in terms of "what to do if such and such a thing happens," as we'll just rewrite our plans in such a case.

    T37, 2520 BC
    Warrior 2: 1W GH Riv (NW + W of the G Cow)
    We take a small risk of one square having a Barb. This risk is somewhat mitigated by moving to a Hills square

    Warrior 1: 1NE G For Riv (SW + SW of the G Corn)
    We take a small risk of one square having a Barb. This risk is greatly mitigated by being in a Forest across of a River

    T38, 2480 BC
    Scout: 1W GH For (1W of the G Corn)
    Warrior 1 will have spawn-busted the north for our Scout

    Warrior 1: 1SW G (1N of the western Lake)
    Warrior 2's visibility will ensure that there is no risk with this move

    Warrior 2: 1SW GH For (3W of the G Cow)
    There is a risk from what looks like 3 squares where we could be attacked, but this risk is mitigated by the fact that we'll have moved to a 75% Defensive bonus square


    T39, 2440 BC
    Scout and Warrior 2 can probably stay in place, in decent spawn-busting positions

    Warrior 1: 1SE G (2N of the G Cow)
    Warrior 1 will ensure that he has 100% safety in his movements by using the Lakes to his advantage

    T40, 2400 BC
    Warrior 1 will probably stay here, in an attempt to bait the Barb Archer to come for him.

    If the Barb Archer comes at Warrior 1 on this turn or on a future turn, by the Barb Archer moving 1S (on the G Cow) or 1SW of Warrior 1 (1W of the G Cow), then:
    Warrior 1 will move 1NE GH For (NE + N + N of the G Cow)
    From there, Warrior 1 will still be in the Archer's line of sight, thus baiting the Archer to charge at us

    On the following turn, if the Archer takes the bait, we will move 1SE GH Riv For Gems, from where the Archer can still see us and will hopefully be baited to attack at the end of that turn or on the next turn.

    If the Archer doesn't take our bait, we'll be on a GH For square (NE + N + N of the G Cow) and can move back 1SW G (2N of the G Cow) safely, to set up the trap again.

    Getting a 100% Defensive bonus is probably the best that we can hope for.

    Worst case, the Barb Archer sticks around and no more of Shaka's units come our way and we'll have to use Warrior 1 plus Warrior 3 (currently in our capital) to guard City 3 when it gets founded. We do get a 25% Defensive bonus when guarding a City from Barbs.

    The plan is to whip our Settler 3 on T44, at which point our Warrior 3 can move 1NW G Riv (1NW of the Cap).

    On the following turn (T45), we plan to have Roads in place 1NW and 2NW of the cap, so both Warrior 3 and Settler 3 can arrive at Cow-2E.

    On the turn after that (T46), City 3 can be settled with Warriors 1 and 3 guarding the City.

    Again, if the Barb Archer is in a bad position at that time, we'll just have to adapt our plans, possibly even going so far as to make City 3 a Corn plus 2 Gems non-coastal (ugh, yes, I know) City, then using our second active Work Boat to explore instead of Netting the Crab that City 3 would no longer be using.


    Updated PPP
    Spoiler :
    Note that I'm pretty much gathering together the details of what we've already planned and am adding in the above-planned unit movements, which, of course, are subject to change based on whatever the Barbs end up doing.


    T37, 2520 BC
    Already done:
    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems

    Worker actions for the turn have been completed

    Yet to do:
    Warrior 1: 1NE G For Riv (SW + SW of the G Corn)
    Warrior 2: 1W GH Riv (NW + W of the G Cow)
    Scout: 1E G (1E of the G Corn), confirm that Shaka's Scout is healing, then 1W G Corn

    T38, 2480 BC
    Spoiler :
    Science Rate = The turn of awesomeness. By making 14 Commerce in one City and 16 Commerce in another City, we get the power of the Golden Days of Vanilla (something that Vanilla did better), where we can pick any Science Rate and not lose a Gold to fractional losses. This turn is where we'll save up enough Gold to complete Writing without any turns at 90% while on Writing. The actual Science rate value will be determined shortly before playing, unless someone else wants to figure it out using the test game. If you do try to figure it out, realise that we can optionally delay Cap's Work Boat by 1 turn and that we can delay the completion of Warrior 3 from City 2, although getting those units out sooner would be marginally better, if we can afford to get them out sooner.


    Science Rate = 70% (should allow us to save up enough Gold for an attempt at a T45 Writing)

    C1: G Riv Farm -> GH Riv Mine
    C2: Steal the G Riv Farm
    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + GH Riv Mine
    C2: Pop 3, 2 Gems + G Riv Farm

    W1 & W2: move 1E & farm
    W3: Mine GH For (2S of Cap)

    Scout: 1W GH For (1W of the G Corn)
    Warrior 1: 1SW G (1N of the western Lake)
    Warrior 2: 1SW GH For (3W of the G Cow)

    T39, 2440 BC
    Science Rate 100%

    C1: Add the Fur
    C2: *** Switch from Warrior to Barracks to avoid completing Warrior 4 *** (the Non-riverside Gems' Road will help us to get just as far north but will save us a Gold)
    C1: Pop 5, Deer + Crab + Wheat + Fur + GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + G Riv Farm


    W1: partially Farm the G Riv (Gems City-2N) and STOP
    W2: Farm the G Riv (Gems City-2N)
    W3: Mine GH For (2S of Cap)

    Scout and Warrior 2 can probably stay in place, in decent spawn-busting positions
    Warrior 1: 1SE G (2N of the G Cow)

    T40, 2400 BC
    C1: Switch Fur -> G Riv Farm
    C2: Switch southern G Riv Farm -> northern G Riv Farm
    C1: Switch to the Granary if we need +1 Gold, otherwise complete the Work Boat with the Chop
    C2: *** Switch to building the Granary ***
    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm + GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + northern G Riv Farm

    W1: Move 1S (City 2-1N), partially Road and STOP
    W2: Complete the Farm on the G Riv (City 2-2N)
    W3: Complete Mining the GH For (2S of Cap)

    Warrior 1 will probably stay here, in an attempt to bait the Barb Archer to come for him.

    If the Barb Archer comes at Warrior 1 on this turn or on a future turn, by the Barb Archer moving 1S (on the G Cow) or 1SW of Warrior 1 (1W of the G Cow), then:
    Warrior 1 will move 1NE GH For (NE + N + N of the G Cow)

    T41, 2360 BC
    C1: Either Work Boat or Granary
    C2: *** Switch to building Warrior 4 *** (we will complete it at the end of this turn)
    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat + G Riv Farm + GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + northern G Riv Farm

    W1: Wait for W2
    W2: Move 1S (City 2-1N) and complete the Road
    W1: Now that W2 is done, move to the GH For at City 2-1SW
    W3: Move 2 NW to the G For (2W of the Cap, with the plan of Roading to the NE of there)

    T42, 2320 BC
    C1: Wheat -> Fur
    C1: Work the GH Mine with the new citizen
    C1: *** Switch to building Settler 3 ***
    C2: *** Switch to building the Granary ***
    C2: northern G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    C1: Pop 6, Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm + 2 Mines + Fur
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat

    W1 & W2: TBD
    W3: 1NW G Riv (1NW of Cap) and Road

    T43, 2280 BC
    C1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm + 2 Mines + Fur
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat

    T44, 2240 BC
    C1: *** WHIP Settler 3 ***
    C1: Deer + Crab + GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems + Wheat

    Warrior 3 in Cap: WAKE him up and move him 1NW G Riv Road

    T45, 2200 BC
    C1: Settler 3 completed -> Granary
    C1: GH Riv Mine -> G Riv Farm
    C1: Deer + Crab + G Riv Farm
    C2: Pop4, 2 Gems + Wheat + northern G Riv Farm

    W3: 1NW G (2NW of Cap) and Road

    T46, 2160 BC
    C1: Granary completed -> Library
    C2: Switch to building a Library
    C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    C2: Wheat -> southern G Riv Farm
    C1: Deer + Crab + Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems + 2 G Riv Farm


    If it weren't for the Crab and The Great Lighthouse, I'd even advocate settling inland, to pick up even more GH squares, some of which are Riverside. But, yes, Cow-1E looks like a good spot to put our Heroic Epic City.
     
  3. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    My gut tells me GLH is too big a prize to risk... I'd lean towards A. We have several good sites to settle, I like the idea of whipping settlers into GLH.

    However, we also need to consider barbs and Shaka. I'm thinking we need to research either AH or archery pretty soon. Warriors might be able to defend cities, but they can't stop pillaging. Might be a reason to research alpha quickly.
     
  4. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Entirely agree with this.

    Think we need City 3 soon to get our unit production center up and running at least for some self-defense. :hammer:
     
  5. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Science Rates
    I'm working on the Science rate details right now. Assuming that I can figure out a reasonable solution within the next little while, I plan to put in at least a couple of turns before bed.


    Spawn-busting and our next Settler
    In terms of self-defence, I assume that there are no explicit complaints about the proposed spawn-busting plan.

    Also, I am going to assume that you aren't suggesting a change to the build actions, which has us whipping Settler 3 on T44 and, assuming that the Barbs don't mess with us too badly, settling on T46. That's only 9 turns away. :)


    Tech Discussion
    As for our tech path, I still haven't decided, but here are some numbers:
    Sailing costs 162 Flasks
    Masonry costs 130 Flasks
    Archery costs 97 Flasks
    Animal Husbandry costs 162 Flasks
    Mysticism costs 80 Flasks (20% boost to research on Masonry)
    Mathematics costs 405 Flasks
    Alphabet costs 487 Flasks
    Sailing + Masonry = 162 + 130 = 292 Flasks

    Neighbouring AIs being gifted Writing + Sailing + Masonry + Mathematics could possibly lead to them building a Wonder for us or could mean researching one of Aesthetics (The Parthenon), Calendar (Mausoleum of Maussollos), or Construction (Catapults) really early in the game. Or, they might just research another tech that could already be unlocked for them, such as Iron Working or Horseback Riding, sooner, allowing us to get said tech in trade sooner.

    The longer that we delay Alphabet, the longer in terms of game turns before we'll learn Willem's tasks (unless we want to go on a Worker-gifting spree).

    As we get closer to the date of learning Writing, we'll have to sit down with some numbers and figure out which techs have been researched by a sufficient number of AIs whom we know.

    The flip side is that by delaying Sailing, and, say, going for Mathematics, we'll need to research an additional 405 - 162 = 243 Flasks worth of research before we can build a Galley or a Lighthouse.

    Of course, learning Mathematics makes at least 2, possibly more Chops going into The Great Lighthouse be stronger, saving at least 2 turns on the completion of that Wonder, since we can make roughly 10 Hammers going into the Wonder per turn.

    Once Gems City has its Library up, we'll be making roughly 50 Flasks per turn, minus, say, one turn of 0% Science. So, we might be talking about a 6-turn difference between beelining Mathematics and starting on Sailing. Yet, until we are 1 turn away from learning Masonry, we can't really whip a Lighthouse and gain any progress on The Great Lighthouse.

    Of course, if no one wants to trade us Sailing or Masonry, then we'll just add to our total research time... so, until we play forward a bit and then figure out how many AIs have each of the techs that we want, it's all guesswork.


    EDIT: Also, who knows? Gifting Mathematics to Willem might mean him going for Currency, with us likely having eyes on his Research path by that time... we don't need to KNOW Currency ourselves in order to be able to gift him Gold... he can also know Currency and thereby enable Gold-gifting.
     
  6. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    It seems to me that we have 4 beakers margin on science so we could go with 60% for one turn. But then I'm a little uncertain how many known players have the pottery tech. So it might be better to run with 70%.

    As for tech paths. I prefer to put down a academy, building the GLH and spamming settlers. But then I'm probably not warlike enough.
     
  7. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Thanks for the feedback, Folket. Do you think that you'll be ready to be the Active Player next? You mentioned something about 2 more weeks before you'll have time.

    Here's the result that I got with 70%. There was a slight delay in completing our Warrior 4, in order to save on Gold, but I don't think that there will be an adverse result from doing so.

    Note that I kept having to remove Writing from Sury, as he kept wanting to relearn that tech.

    I'll try to play a couple of turns of the real game, which I can edit into this message.
    Spoiler :



    Turnset Report

    T37, 2520 BC

    X King: Where does our empire stand?

    Science Advisor: With some cost-cutting, we are optimistically targeting being able to write by 2200 BC.

    X King: I don't even know how to read, so how is that going to help me?

    Science Advisor: Patience, my liege. Our nation has to start somewhere, and with royal scribes and royal readers to start you off, you'll eventually get the hang of it.

    Financial Advisor: Harumph. And just where do you expect to get the Gold to fund your little pet project? Our Military's ranks are already brimming full... any more units and we'll be over budget.

    Military Advisor: More units, I say, MOAR!

    Financial Advisor: Show a little restraint, my friend. Surely, our elite troops are strong enough to guard our empire... you aren't trying to tell us that they aren't up the the task, are you?

    Military Advisor: Well, if you put it that way; I suppose that we can delay adding new recruits for a bit. All right, troops, let's see what we can do with the budget that we've been given. Fight hard, fight smartly, and don't be afraid to run to fight on a different day!

    Domestic Advisor: All is as planned.

    Warrior 1: No enemies spotted. I am now in position to help spawn-bust for our Scout.

    Warrior 2: I am keeping an eye out for your next turn's move, Warrior 1.

    Scout: As predicted, Shaka's Scout has taken the time to heal.

    Spoiler :



    T38, 2480 BC

    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer went 1W GH (1SW of the G Cow)

    Military Advisor: Proceed as planned, but be cautious!

    Scout: Shaka's Scout has healed to 0.5/1 Health. He should be mobile in another 5 "turns," as we are calling them, Turn 43 to be precise.

    Science Advisor: Time to scale back the research.

    Financial Advisor: Yes! More money for my coffers!

    Science Advisor: I'll be needing it soon enough.

    Financial Advisor: Fine, fine. But, in the meantime, allow me to bask in the pile of riches, pouring it through my fingers, and enjoying the tinkling sounds as the Gold drops on the floor all around me!

    Head of Intelligence: You need to get out more often.

    Domestic Advisor: Back to working the Mines, as X-opolis will still be able to expand its population by the end of this turn.

    Military Advisor: It is time for that lesson on avoiding cutting corners.

    Science Advisor: Do tell.

    Military Advisor: Work Boat Captain, would you do the honours?

    Work Boat Captain: See, I now have the choice of going 1E (1N of the eastern Fish) or 1NE (2N of the eastern Fish). I could head 1NE, but then we wouldn't know what lies the the east of the eastern Fish... if it is another Coast square, we wouldn't know until we came back. If it turns out to be an Ocean square, at least we won't have to return in the future to confirm as much.

    Spoiler :


    Science Advisor: Oh, I get it now! I'm still going to think of pizza, though, every time that you bring up the subject. ;)

    Work Boat Captain: Ocean, ahoy! All aboard! Oh, no takers? Fine, wait for your Galleys, you silly landlubbers!

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 2: No new Barbs spotted.

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: To give me something to do, let's remember the current Espionage values:
    101 spent by Willem against us
    5 spent by Shaka against us
    144 spent by us against Willem


    T39, 2440 BC

    Science Advisor: Pedal to the metal on Science!

    Financial Advisor: I thought that you were working on the secrets to making better clay-based cooking ware.

    Science Advisor: The people understand metal, even if our troops can't seem to find any. :p

    Warrior 2: That Barb Archer is no longer in sight. He's either on the G Cow or 1W of there.

    Domestic Advisor: No Warrior four you!

    Head of Intelligence: I see what you did there. :scan: Clever!

    Military Advisor: I was hoping that you'd forget.

    Warrior 1: I have figured out where the Barb Archer is not located.

    Head of Intelligence: Once you have eliminated the impossible, the remainder, however unlikely, is the most probable.

    Warrior 2: Oh, no! The Barb Archer must be leveling-up on the Secret Cow Level!

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Willem sure seems to have jumped up quite a bit in Score. That's quite a lot for only 1 City's population increasing... could it also be a new unit and a new tech? I was never really good at figuring out those Score values.

    Head of Intelligence: Perhaps it is as simple as his Cultural Borders having expanded a while ago, thanks to his Creative Trait plus Hinduism.

    Foreign Advisor: Hmmm, yes, that's a much more likely explanation. Also, I should note that Willem is Cautious toward us at an Attitude of +3, when previously he was Pleased toward us with the same +3 value. He seems to be one of those rare Leaders who actually prefers you to have a higher Score than him.

    Head of Intelligence: What that fact tell us is that although we started off with +3 with him, due to Willem's hidden dislike for us, we would still have a long way to go to get him up to Friendly status.

    Foreign Advisor: You'd think that talking with Willem repeatedly, now that he's Cautious toward us, might cause him to slip up and discuss his military forces, but no luck, no matter how many times I visit the F4 GLANCE screen and right-click on his portrait, then Escape, as quickly as I can.

    Science Advisor: You're probably correct that you just aren't in the right clique. It was probably a good idea for you to get out of there as fast as possible.

    Foreign Advisor: That's not what I meant...

    Science Advisor: Please, have some patience with me. Computers are rather far off in the tech tree.

    Head of Intelligence: Before I forget, here are the current Espionage values:
    105 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    6 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    148 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    160 currently required to see Willem's Research
    90 currently required to see Shaka's Research


    T40, 2400 BC

    Domestic Advisor: X-opolis switches from the Fur to the G Riv Farm to grow 1 turn sooner (growth in 2 turns' time). Meanwhile, we have switched to building a Granary in Gems City.

    Military Advisor: When may I have my next troop?

    Financial Advisor: Next turn we can put the final touches on its completion.

    Worker 3: After what seems like ages, I have completed my first task! I have turned a 1-turn Work Boat build into a, ummm, 1-turn Work Boat build! Aren't I amazing?

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: We have closed the Score gap with Willem.

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka's Score remains unchanged. Hey, wait a minute! It still says "+18" beside Willem's name, but his Score hasn't gone up since last turn!

    Foreign Advisor: Hmmm, I've never paid much attention to those differential values previously, but I assume that when there is no change, the previous increase or decrease remains displayed, as confusing as that may be.

    Warrior 1: The Barb Archer appears to have picked up my scent. Let us hope that he continues to follow me into our baited trap!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: Here are the current Espionage values:
    111 [+6] spent by Willem against us
    7 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    152 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    165 [+5] currently required to see Willem's Research
    91 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research


    T41, 2360 BC

    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth has met us using a Work Boat! She claims to be quite attractive and has suggested that we remain at peace until all of the land has been settled.

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: She has 2 Cities and has a Score in between ours and Willem's, which may explain Willem's cooling of relations... being at least 2 players higher than us in Score... which might even be related to him leaving the bottom half of all players.

    Domestic Advisor: Time for a Granary in X-opolis to catch the overflow Hammers. X-opolis will grow in 1 turn, at which point we can begin our Settler 3.

    Warrior 1: The Barb Archer has come closer and is now 1N of the G Cow. I'll stay in place on the GH For, hoping that he'll come closer.

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: Here are the current Espionage values:
    115 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    8 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    156 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    169 [+4] currently required to see Willem's Research
    92 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Ambassador Milquetoast: As should come as no surprise, Shaka is everyone's favourite attack dog.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: What a complicated web of Past Events has been woven! Without this summary provided by my aides, my head would be spinning with all of the complexities of past prejudices.

    Spoiler :


    X King: Let us ponder this news of meeting Elizabeth... will we push on toward early Currency? Will we try to locate Willem and gift him a Worker? Or, will it just be business as usual for now?

    Here is your Session Turn Log from 2520 BC to 2360 BC:
    Spoiler :
    Turn 39, 2440 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 5.
    Turn 39, 2440 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

    Turn 40, 2400 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for X-opolis.

    Turn 41, 2360 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 41, 2360 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
     

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  8. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Spoiler :




    no, really, nice read :)
     
  9. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Some more comments/thoughts:
    - When we continue the turnset, for Workers 1 and 2, we'll be Chopping Forests as the next major task after Roading the Gems Mine, but after that, those two Workers will need something to do. Those two Forest Chops will go into City 2's Library
    - It might be worth it to try to get a Corn City reasonably soon. Sure, island Cities will be great, but there are a lot of Forests up there and with our early emphasis on building Workers, we're soon going to have too many Worker turns, so Chopping a ton of Forests in a well-spawn-busted area could be one option to use those Worker turns more effectively
    - Since Workers 1 and 2 will be busy with Chopping, Worker 3 has to finish the two Road segments for speeding up the settling of City 3 by itself, and thus Worker 3 might not be Chopping the Cap's Library... we might instead whip a Settler or Worker to complete the Library; we'll have to play around with the Library's timing of completion... maybe we'll work both GH Mines in the capital to finish it off manually? Note that if we do Chop a Library, the "missing" 10 Hammers from Chopping prior to Mathematics might be made up for by the additional Flasks earned from getting the Library completed sooner... more so if the Chop speeds up the Library's completion by a couple of turns rather than just say, by 1 turn
    - We are still reasonably far off from players having an average of 3 Cities per Civ, at which point we're going to have to worry about the Barbarian Rush
    - Barb Cities will probably start showing up soon
    - Can Barb Galleys enter Ocean squares that are within our Cultural Borders in BtS (does anyone know?)? If not, it looks like Fish island is set up to play "lure the Barb Galley in circles around it," as, from the Barb thread, we can see that a Barb Galley won't go to Pillage seafood if there is an enemy boat to chase and the Barb Galley doesn't end its turn adjacent to or on top of one of our seafood Resources. The Barb Galley will chase a boat up to 4 squares away from it
    - After City 2 completes its Library, we could potentially slow-build a Worker or a Settler, since we'd be shrinking anyway and thus wouldn't be "wasting" turns of growth on these build items
    - After Chopping a Library for City 2, our main Worker action will be getting the 3rd Gems Mine online ASAP... after that, perhaps Roading to Corn City and Pre-chopping Forests there? If we don't have a useful Wonder to get, we can also Chop out a couple of Settlers
    - Some options post-Writing include:
    i. Saving Gold until we get an Academy and then pushing to Alphabet + Currency, probably trading around Alphabet or not getting many techs
    ii. Self-teching Math to Lightbulb Alphabet, trading around Math to neighbours but not trading around Alphabet, using the extra techs to broker those techs for more techs
    iii. Forget waiting for an Academy and tech Sailing -> Masonry

    Currently, I think that the strongest option is going to be ii., since it will put us in complete control of the tech-trading game. While we have short-term goals of getting Sailing and Masonry, we have a medium-term goal of getting a ton of needed techs.

    For example, maybe with enough techs in trade, we could Chop The Oracle in Corn City with sufficient early trades. Or, perhaps The Temple of Artemis. The Pyramids will cost too much, unless we find Stone somewhere.

    Also, the sooner that we get trading with our neighbours, we will have met less AIs and thus less AIs will count each earned tech, such as Animal Husbandry, against their WFYABTA counters.

    I'm happy getting an Academy later. We'd have to look at the math, but a rough approximation says that an Academy is worth +8 base Flasks (roughly 9 or 10 final Flasks) per turn on any turn at 100% Science. When we're making roughly 50 final Flasks per turn, that's a useful boost, but it may not be as big as Lightbulbing Alphabet.

    Consider: We would tech Math before getting a Great Scientist, so in the worst case, we'd self-tech Sailing, Masonry, and Currency without an Academy's bonus. Can 9 to 10 Flasks per turn make up for Lightbulbing 487 Flasks? If we aim to stop research after those 3 techs, saving up Gold to give to Willem, we can use our next Great Scientist on an Academy, with only the earned Flasks from those techs being lost.

    Sailing + Masonry + Currency = 162 + 130 + (a guess) 670? = 962 Flasks
    962 / 50 = roughly 19 turns
    19 turns * 10 Flasks per turn (we earn 0 Flasks from an Academy on turns at 0% Science) = 190 Flasks

    487 Flasks > 190 Flasks by a large margin

    "Couldn't we Lightbulb something with our second Great Scientist instead?" Sure, but we'd probably have to wait to learn Iron Working and then Lightbulb Compass or wait even longer, say, to Lightbulb Optics (I'm assuming that we'll probably want to go for Astronomy for what appears to be a naval map, given the small amount of land in the real game).

    So, that second Great Scientist would sit on ice for a long time, basically wasting a good part of our Philosophical Trait's ability to get 2 early Great People.

    Meanwhile, we'd have the value of Math being traded around, and the value from brokering the techs that we earned early enough from trading around Math early such that the AIs won't have duplicated too much research on some of the brokered techs and thus we can trade around some of the brokered techs (instead of being in the dreaded situation of only being able to trade around Writing to some AIs as well as Alphabet).

    Also, we can speed up the tech pace of our immediate neighbours, to improve our trading options and potential gains from capturing neighbours' Cities after we spam Settlers in our REX phase.

    Part of getting up a good amount of spawn-busters now is forward-thinking, planning for a time where we can spam Settlers to REX, instead of having to capture 4-Archer-defended Barb Cities.

    Phalanx are junk (they are no better than Axes when on attack, and we're a non-Aggressive Civ, so no free Combat I Promotion) and while Horse Archers are nice, having Shaka as a neighbour (Impis) and Willem with only 1 City greatly reduces their re-use, and Horse Archers are most effective when used repeatedly; if you can only use them for 1 or 2 battles each, it is more efficient to spam Settlers.

    If we save the Forest at the capital instead of Chopping it into a Library, that means +3 turns saved on The Great Lighthouse later, given a Math-beeline approach, so that's what I'm leaning toward, even though our Cap's Library does get slightly delayed.

    The timing of learning Math should roughly correlate with the timing of spawning our Great Scientist.

    Theoretically, with enough Worker turns, we could even Chop a Lighthouse and The Great Lighthouse in Corn City, but doing so will probably be a lot tighter in terms of micro than trying to build it in the capital; it will be an option if other early Wonders are not available for us to build via Forests, though.

    So, if we consider that possibility, we could even Chop into Settler 4 in the capital, although I'm not as keen on that idea as compared to just building Roads toward the Corn City area and whipping Settler 4 a bit later, using the Roads to make up for the delay of turns to produce Settler 4 that would have been saved by Chopping it. Although, only so many Workers can be used at once for efficiently building Roads, so I'm not totally sold either way, as we could potentially do both (build Roads to Corn City and put a Chop into Settler 4... or, partially into a Library with the rest overflowing into Settler 4).
     
  10. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    27,479
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    Have you finished your turn set and are we waiting for the next player? Or can you continue a bit more?

    How about preparing things for City 3? Roads and pre-chop the grass hill for a Library? We could connect our cities in order to move units quickly in case barbs start visiting in number, or Shaka comes calling?

    Should we consider having Gem City build a Galley, once we have Sailing, to get a couple of island cities built for trade routes and Furs?

    Agree we would like that Library soon. :)

    What are we going to fend them off with? Do we need to research Archery or shall we consider that Horses will appear with AH? Or shall we consider IW?

    Just tested this and I do not think Barb Galleys can enter ocean hexes within our borders. Put a city on the eastern plains hill and added fishing nets to all three ocean fish then placed 5 Barb Galleys next to the fishing nets and hit enter four or five times. They sailed around only on the coastal tiles, not one entered ocean.

    Would like to get Great Lighthouse soonest, but you make an excellent case to go ii way. :goodjob:

    Agree with you!

    We need to scout future city sites then and look for Stone and Marble. How many cities before the financial bite gets us...


    Phalanxes should be good versus Impi's though. But we need some copper or iron. :scan:

    Horse Archers need horses. :shifty:
     
  11. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    13,408
    I can continue until we've finished research on the current tech. After that, we'll probably want to do another round of testing to nail down what we're going to do next. I should be able to put in some more turns on the real game in in hour or so.


    Well, we'll definitely have 1 Forest Chop from the 3rd Gems Resource. I'm thinking that it'll be best put into a Granary, so that we can 1-pop-whip the Granary, but exactly how we do so will be determined after the next round of testing.

    Teching up until Writing only gives us time for:
    1. Finishing the Non-riverside Gems Mine's Road
    2. Chopping 2 GH Fors with Workers 1 and 2 into City 2's Library, to be able to get our 1st Great Scientist ASAP
    3. Building Roads with Worker 3 to speed up Settler 3 by 1 turn on Settler 3's way to settling City 3

    After that, I'm assuming something like: Road the 2 GH squares that were Chopped, then send Worker 3 to the GH Riv For Gems square to Road it, then have that Gems square pre-Chopped, then use all 3 Workers to finish the Chop and then the Mine once our Cultural Borders expand over the square. We'll have 1 turn at Size 1 where our Cultural Borders haven't expanded (5 turns to expand Cultural Borders x 4 Food = 20 / 22 Food), so we'll need to use all 3 Workers if we want to work the Mined Gems as soon as City 3 hits Size 2.

    But, we certainly could have other options, such as delaying that 3rd Gems Mine and Chopping into a Library or Settler 4 in the capital, or not even building those GH Roads, or whatever.


    From somewhere, we'll need to get a Galley. I'd probably get a Granary in City 3 as our first build item.

    City 2 is a bit tough, as we'll need to decide what to build after the Library: a Granary, a Worker, or a Settler, and we might not even complete that build item for a while. I'm leaning toward a Worker or a Settler, then 2-pop-whipping it into a Granary at some point, but if we have the energy to do some testing, testing might give us a clearer picture. It's certainly also a strong option to save the 4 population points until Sailing comes in and 2-pop-whip a Galley from City 2 right away, overflowing the extra 10 Hammers from 2-pop-whipping a Galley into whatever other build item we'd started on.

    We might need to decide between Corn City and Fur City... Fur City will give us +1 per Trade Route, but Corn City won't require a Galley, and Hammers are a bit tight.

    Chopping a useful Wonder or even Settlers out of Corn City would give us a good production boost, while Fur City would mostly be about gaining more Commerce, and we've already focused heavily on Commerce at a bit of a detriment to Hammers. I could go either way, but if we can make a clear path to settling Corn City, and settle it before the Barb Rush, we'll be able to better Culture-bust our area earlier and thus we can push our spawn-busters into even more effective positions.


    Yes, the capital's Library will be nice to get, but if we're going to run a couple of turns at 0% Science, then maybe there isn't a total need to rush completing it. We'll probably want to grow slowly at City Size 5 anyway, which could give us time to focus on working the Mines.

    The Library could also be 2-pop-whipped, overflowing into a Worker or a Settler, but first we'd have to regrow from Size 3 before we can even think about 2-pop-whipping.


    There's no way that we should self-tech Iron Working this late. But, if we do go for the tech-trading approach, we can gift the AIs techs like Sailing and Masonry, if they don't already have them, plus any techs that we get in trade, like Animal Husbandry (only one 1 AI has to know Animal Husbandry for it to be tradeable, so it's almost a guaranteed trade), so that they can focus on Iron Working (or Calendar/Construction) sooner for us.

    Willem being at 1 City helps a lot, as then we can probably settle 4 Cities without the Barbs rushing us.


    Thanks, that's great news. It means that we just have to keep the Barb Galleys away from the Crabs, and even just having a Work Boat for Barb Galleys to chase would be helpful, while Fish Island allows us to reverse the direction of a Barb Galley that came from the north, to send it following us back northward.


    I want The Great Lighthouse soon, too. But, with our emphasis on Research giving us a fast tech pace, we can hopefully delay Sailing & Masonry and still have plenty of time to get The Great Lighthouse, even more so with stronger Chops from Mathematics.


    Cities 3 and 4 are going to hurt a bit on our research pace, but probably not much more than +1 to 2 turns of 0% Science per tech per City settled. The extra Commerce can also mean more Flasks per turn. So, if, say, we get -4 Maintenance from settling City 3, but earn 4 Commerce per turn (2 Commerce from the Crab, 1 Commerce from the City Centre, and 1 Commerce from a Trade Route), we'll be Commerce-neutral, and the Gems Mine at Size 2 will put us further ahead. City 4 will be a drain, but by the time that we can settle it, we'll be looking more for Hammers than we will for Commerce, anyway.


    Maybe, but I'd rather go to war with something stronger than Axes, since the goal should be to capture Cities, not just to kill Impis in the field. I'm hopeful that we'll get Construction reasonably early for Catapults, in which case Phalanx would be fine as support troops for our Cats.


    After last SGOTM's massive amount of Horse Resources, we might not even have any Horses on the continent. In that case, it would become even stronger to focus on spawn-busting and REXing.

    The biggest thorn is dealing with that Barb Archer.

    I'm even tempted to sacrifice a Warrior if the Barb Archer stays near the location of where we want to settle City 3, such that we lure the Barb Archer to attack our Warrior away from our City 3 area.

    If we settle City 3 with the Barb Archer within our Cultural Borders, it will stay there. But, if we draw the Barb Archer away from the City, it shouldn't enter our Cultural Borders until more Cities get settled globally (as long as we're smart enough not to place a unit of ours just inside of our Cultural Borders adjacent to said Archer, which would lure the Archer into our Cultural Borders prematurely).

    That's my understanding of what I read in the Barb Thread... please correct me if you think that my understanding is faulty.
     
  12. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2006
    Messages:
    13,408
    Turnset Report

    Turn 41, 2360 BC

    Military Advisor: Given where our Worker is going to be, I'm also starting to question the plan of luring the Barb Archer as being too late to execute... at this point, it might be best to not lure it eastward... if we fight it and lose, then we'd be at risk of losing a Worker. So, it seems better to head 1W right now and not lure the Barb Archer in the direction of where our Workers are going to be.

    Warrior 1: I think that I can take him!

    Head of Intelligence: It's a tough call. If we lure the Barb Archer eastward, we can at least send Warrior 4 as a backup unit to defend our Warrior. If we don't lure it eastward, he might randomly wander to an inconvenient location anyway.

    Warrior 1: Let's give the plan a shot. No one else raised any doubts about it. Even if I die, Warrior 4 can pick up the slack. I hope!

    Military Advisor: All right. We can stick to the plan. I don't love it, but we will still be at the random whims of where that Barb Archer may go at this point, no matter what we do. At least if we bait him to fight us, we can do so on our terms.

    Warrior 1: I can at least move 1SE GH Riv For Gems now. If the Barb Archer doesn't charge us, I'll be able to better see what's going on by also seeing the G Cow square, and can also build up a Fortification bonus. I can also be close to the City 3 location, if I'll be needed to defend it.

    Warrior 2: Guys! Hang on! You're forgetting about me! Maybe I can be of help. I can move 1NE GH Riv, putting me in sight of the Barb Archer. If he follows me westward, we'll be in great shape.

    Military Advisor: Well, you'd be giving up your Fortification bonus.

    Warrior 2: Sometimes, sacrifices must be made for the good of the empire. What good is it for Warrior 1 to die with the Barb Archer being adjacent to one of our Workers? That's gambling.

    Head of Intelligence: You make a strong argument.

    Warrior 1: Soo, what should I do? Bait the Barb Archer or move westward to avoid baiting him?

    Military Advisor: Both of you can bait him. If he takes the bait, he'll probably go for the weaker target, Warrior 2, in the west. If he doesn't take the bait and moves randomly, you can build up a Fortification bonus and can be in a better position to defend City 3.

    Head of Intelligence: It's about as good of a plan as any, given the precarious situation in which we find ourselves.

    Warrior 2: And, the deed is done. Your move, Barbie.

    Warrior 1: What, do you fashion yourself to be as handsome as a Ken doll, now?

    Warrior 2: Why, thank you for the compliment, good sir! :D

    Spoiler :



    Turn 42, 2320 BC

    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer didn't take the bait and he moved 1S to the G Cow.

    Military Advisor: Stay in your current positions, then. He can still see both of you from there.

    Domestic Advisor: Meanwhile, a lot is going on. X-opolis starts to produce Settler 3, while switching the Wheat to the Fur, allowing Gems City to take over the valuable Wheat Resource. Gems City also switches to producing a Granary, instead of the queued-up Barracks.

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 4: I'm coming toward the west, too! We can't afford any mistakes with our Worker force!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The Espionage report:
    119 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    9 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    160 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    172 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    92 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Work Boat Captain: I seem unable to sail further eastward and must head westward before being able to go eastward again.

    Spoiler :



    Turn 43, 2280 BC

    X King: I'm getting anxious. What's happening with that Barb Archer?

    Warrior 2: He has come westward, toward me! Shall I fight with him? I could get a 60% Defensive bonus, where I stand, for 3.2 Strength!

    Warrior 1: No... he could still come back eastward if he wins, in time to mess with the settling of City 3.

    Military Advisor: You have two options: move 1SW TH For or 1NW GH For. Moving to the TH For exposes you to 4 potential attacks from other Barb units, while moving you to the GH For only exposes you to 2 potential attacks.

    Warrior 2: Also, if I move 1NW GH For, I'll be within sight of the Barb Archer, and he may choose to rush me!

    Warrior 1: For the greater good, do it! If he follows and you fight him, we'll have a clear path for settling City 3 safely.

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 2: Uhhh, guys?

    Warrior 1: Yes, what is it?

    Warrior 2: I'm afraid that I'm surrounded! There's another Barb Archer, NW + N of my current position. And, both Barb Archers can see me from this Hills square that I have climbed!

    Warrior 4: Don't worry, dude. You can run 1W to the next GH For and only have to fight one of them next turn, should they both charge you.

    Warrior 2: For the glory of Greece!

    Warrior 4: That's the spirit!

    Warrior 1: A spirit might be all that's left of him after that.

    Warrior 2: I heard that!

    Warrior 1: Well, we'll honour your spirit and your potential sacrifice greatly! =D

    Spoiler :


    Military Advisor: For now, we're stuck in reactionary mode. Let the Barbs make their moves first and then we'll react appropriately.

    Head of Intelligence: The Espionage report:
    123 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    10 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    164 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    175 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    94 [+2] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Domestic Advisor: Finally, a "turn" with no changes in what our Cities are doing! Let us hope that others in the future will be motivated to keep a close eye on what our Cities are doing and will also make frequent adjustments for the betterment of our empire as a whole.

    Financial Advisor: It looks like we can stay on budget, although a 6th unit being outside of our Cultural Borders will cost us 1 Gold per turn.

    Work Boat Captain: It seems that I must resign myself to really going far to the west before being able to head to the east. We have spotted another Ocean-going Fish! Unfortunately, it is just out of reach of being partnered with the Corn in a single City.

    Domestic Advisor: At least we won't be tempted to settle a Corn City far away from the Forests, then.

    Science Advisor: Always looking on the bright side of things, aren't you?

    Domestic Advisor: I try. :)

    Spoiler :


    Ambassador Milquetoast: Remember that Shaka's Scout will be moving pretty soon, perhaps this turn or the next!

    Warrior 4: I hope that he moves eastward, to pick up the slack that I've left by not going northward myself!

    Foreign Advisor: With only one attempt, Elizabeth happily coughed up the info that she has Archers in her army, while Willem is as tight-lipped on the subject as ever. Elizabeth still isn't in Slavery, nor is Willem.


    Turn 44, 2240 BC

    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth has completed the first World Wonder, Stonehenge!

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has founded City #3, Nobamba.

    Science Advisor: Na, na, na, na, na bamba!

    Foreign Advisor: :facepalm: It's actually: Para bailar la bamba (In order to dance the Bamba). That part gets sung twice.

    Science Advisor: Yeah, but: Se necesita una poca de gracia,
    Una poca de gracia para mi para ti (A little humor is needed, A little humor for me and for you)

    Military Advisor: Arriba y arriba, Arriba y arriba (Faster and faster x2)

    Head of Intelligence: Por ti seré, Por ti seré (I'll be for you x2)

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Awww, fine, I'll join in, too: Yo no soy marinero, Yo no soy marinero (I'm not a sailor x2)

    Work Boat Captain: Okay, my turn: Soy capitán, Soy capitán, Soy capitán (I'm captain x3) :D

    X King: Now that you guys are done with your fun, what's going on in the fields?

    Warrior 1: Barb Archer #1 has come our way!

    Warrior 4: Of course, that Barb Archer is now likely to head to the GH For and thus avoid attacking across of a River. I can move to support you, though.

    Warrior 2: On the plus side, Barb Archer #2 has disappeared into the fog. I think that I'll hold position here. I don't want to lure Barb Archer #1 back westward again, where he might then go south-east toward our desired City 3 location.

    Warrior 1: Yeah, better to have him go toward the north and then I can always decide to retreat.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth and Shaka hate each other, especially now that Shaka has jumped ahead of us in Score.

    Ambassador Milquetoast: No Open Borders with either of Elizabeth or Shaka, then! We don't want to anger the Mighty Shaka, nor do we want to anger one of the loves of our life!

    Spoiler :


    Domestic Advisor: That relative Scoreboard positioning will probably remain for quite a while longer, since we're about to whip X-opolis' Settler 3. We also send the G Riv Farmers to the GH Riv Mines, to squeeze out an extra Hammer. Meanwhile, Gems City is about to grow to Size 4, thanks to liberal usage of the Wheat while Settler 3 was in construction. Food-sharing for the win! :goodjob:

    Head of Intelligence: The Espionage report:
    127 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    11 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    168 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    178 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    95 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Work Boat Captain's twin cousin: I have explored the mysterious Coast near X-opolis, only to reveal additional Ocean.

    Spoiler :


    Military Advisor: Warrior 3, don't forget to come out of X-opolis! Warrior 4, perhaps move 1W G Riv (1S of the GH Riv For Gems), so that you can try to bait Barb Archer 1 to attack Warrior 1 from across of the River.

    Warrior 4: Great idea! From here, I will be in position to help defend City 3, if needed.

    Warrior 1: Excellent! In this way, I can continue to Skip my turn in my fortified position in hopes of combating the Barb Archer.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Praise the Lord!

    Religious Advisor: Uhhh, we haven't even received a Religion yet.

    Foreign Advisor: I don't care. A Miracle has happened! After more than 600 "clicks" during a series of inter-connected turns that I shall call a turnset, I have finally gotten Willem to reveal his military forces to us!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: What of the others?

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka still brags about his Impis.

    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth just has Archers, although the English bowmen are known to be fierce warriors!


    Turn 45, 2200 BC

    Science Advisor: Writing is in! Nice work, team!

    Financial Advisor: Ohhh, I still have 2 shiny Gold coins to my name. Time to practice some magic tricks, to see if I can increase the size of our coffers.

    Science Advisor: Harumph, magic tricks. That'll be at the expense of Science, no doubt.

    Domestic Advisor: Gems City grows to Size 4, switches to building a Library (to be completed in 2 turns' time), and works the northern G Riv Farm. X-opolis also sends the GH Riv Miners back to the G Riv Farm.

    Workers 1 and 2: Forest Chops done!

    Domestic Advisor: Gems City is really pushing the limits here, with 5 out of 5 Happiness and 4 out of 4 Healthiness being in use! ;)

    Warrior 1: The Barb Archer has moved northward, giving us a respite!

    Warrior 4: What should I do? Move 1SW G (1E of the G Cow) to help spawn-bust the square 1SW of the G Cow? Or, stay close to Warrior 1, so that if the Barb Archer comes at us, I can be a backup fighter? If I stay nearby, I should probably move 1E GH, to potentially reduce our Unit Supply costs (worth checking in the test game to see if that's true).

    Military Advisor: Let's ponder that situation for a little bit.

    Warrior 1: I have a 15% Fortification bonus, which should be 20% by the end of the turn and then 25% before Barb Archer 1 could potentially attack me. If he doesn't attack across of the River, that'll just give me a total of a 100% Defensive bonus (4 Strength).

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The T45 Espionage report:
    131 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    12 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    172 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    181 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    96 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Foreign Advisor: We could probably afford to Open Borders with Willem, but I'll leave that decision until we've gotten more feedback.

    Science Advisor: Research has been set to Mathematics, although it is not yet set in stone as we have earned 0 Flasks in it so far.

    Warrior 4: Despite what the diagram shows, if moving me inside of our Cultural Borders won't save us anything, I should stay in place, should I be needed to help with defending City 3. In fact, it seems like staying in place is the best spot for me, even if it DOES cost 1 Gold, to give us the flexibility to send me where I will be most needed (say, if another Barb Archer appears out of the fog to the west of where we want to settle City 3 and threatens City 3 itself).

    EDIT: Warrior 4: Yes, the test game shows that I should just stay in place, since moving back into our Cultural Borders is not going to save us 1 Gold in Unit Supply costs, and I'm in a great position where I am to either support City 3 or Warrior 1, as needed.

    X King: Time for some additional testing, boys!

    Here is your Session Turn Log from 2360 BC to 2200 BC:
    Spoiler :
    Turn 41, 2360 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Gems. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

    Turn 43, 2280 BC: X-opolis can hurry Settler for 3⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
    Turn 43, 2280 BC: Willem van Oranje is the worst enemy of Shaka.
    Turn 43, 2280 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
    Turn 43, 2280 BC: Shaka has founded Nobamba in a distant land.

    Turn 44, 2240 BC: Elizabeth is the worst enemy of Shaka.
    Turn 44, 2240 BC: Gems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
    Turn 44, 2240 BC: You have discovered Writing!
    Turn 44, 2240 BC: You have trained a Settler in X-opolis. Work has now begun on a Granary.

    Turn 45, 2200 BC: Gems has grown to size 4.
    Turn 45, 2200 BC: Gems can hurry Granary for 2⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
    Turn 45, 2200 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Elizabeth, Shaka, Willem van Oranje
    Turn 45, 2200 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for Gems.
    Turn 45, 2200 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for Gems.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2001
    Messages:
    5,285
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    Tuckasegee, NC
    Good effort, Dhoom. Sorry I can't help with the testing this weekend -- going out of town.

    Can't remember seeing a map with so much production. Every other tile seems to be either a forest or a hill, or both. Makes Math for chopping bonus more powerful than usual.
     
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2006
    Messages:
    13,408
    The main holdup right now is what to tech next.

    We'll also need to figure out what to do with our units, such as where to send a given Warrior.

    It will also be nice to decide upon Worker actions... we could certainly do Roading of the Deer or the Cow, pre-Chopping Cap's Forests, etc. But, those tasks seem rather secondary to me right now.

    There's also the decision of whipping capital's Library or not, but we could play ahead a bit without making that decision.

    With some effort, I've got a few facts collected from screenshot-taking in regards to techs.

    Out of the 3 AIs whom we have met:

    At 30 Flasks per turn, we know that more than 1 AI knows Sailing
    At 27 Flasks per turn, we know that less than 3 AIs know Sailing
    We know definitively that 2 AIs know Sailing

    At 30 Flasks per turn, we know that more than 0 AIs and less than 2 AIs know Masonry
    1 AI knows Masonry

    At 30 Flasks per turn, we know that less than 3 AIs and more than 1 AI know Animal Husbandry
    2 AIs know Animal Husbandry

    At 30 Flasks per turn, we know that less than 1 AI knows Iron Working
    0 AIs know Iron Working

    At 30 Flasks per turn, we know that less than 3 AIs and more than 1 AI knows Mysticism
    2 AIs know Mysticism

    I'm not even going to check, but all AIs should know Archery.


    So, upon learning Alphabet, we should be able to get (perhaps with gifting techs to Shaka first to get him up to Pleased status, so that he will trade techs):
    Sailing (as long as Willem knows it)
    Animal Husbandry (from any AI who will trade techs to us)
    Archery (from any AI)
    Mysticism (from Willem, as we know that Willem must have it)

    Masonry in trade is probably unlikely, but we'd at least get a 20% bonus on researching it from learning Mysticism.


    ROUGH PPP
    So, I'm still quite happy with self-teching Math and Lightbulbing Alphabet.


    Assuming that the Barb Archer doesn't give us trouble, I'm leaning toward:
    i. Roading GH at Gems-1SW
    ii. Roading GH at Gems-2W
    iii. Roading the GH Riv For Gems
    iv. Pre-Chopping then later Chopping and Mining the GH Riv For Gems (the Chop might be saved for a turn as you can put in 3 turns of Mining before needing to Chop, and then we'd get the Forest's defensive bonus on a turn when there are 3 Workers Mining that square; obviously, if we had 3 Workers threatened, we'd put at least 2 Warrior defenders on said square, so that it would be impossible to lose the Workers)
    v. Building a Road toward Corn City... if we want a Fish City, and if we want Corn City to be Coastal, and if we don't want Corn City to be settled in the Desert without many nearby Forests, we will settle 1W or 2W of the G Corn... 1W lets us work the Farmed G Corn for 5 extra turns while 2W lets us work +1 GH in the long run... 1W is probably the better choice, since we won't have any other squares to steal from other Cities in the short term
    vi. Pre-Chopping at Corn City

    Roads, although they count as Routes instead of Improvements, are Pillageable and thus can lure a Barb to come toward our Cities just to Pillage them, so we'll want to keep this fact in mind.

    However, Roads built OUTSIDE of our Cultural Borders will not be Pillaging targets for Barbs, so we can be creative with where we put down Roads, such as on the GH Riv For that is NW + NW of Gems City and on the GH Riv For 1N of there.


    +1 Warrior will cost us +1 Gold per turn, but I think that it will be wise to 2-pop-whip a Library in our capital at Size 4, build a Warrior with overflow Hammers for a Miliatary Police unit, and then have our existing 4 Warriors be Archer-fighters and spawn-busters.

    Warrior 3 can either guard City 3 or head westward, but I think that westward will be the better choice, unless we see the Barbs rushing our Cities... and the test game has +2 Cities than the real game, while the Barbs don't rush us in the test game.

    Warrior 1 can try to patiently wait for the Barb Archer to come and attack him.

    Warrior 4 can support either Warrior 1 or City 3, as needed.

    Once that Barb Archer is dead, our surviving Warriors can spread out to spawn-bust, with a priority on getting a unit headed toward the north then east.
     
  15. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I played around with the test a bit. Some thoughts:

    • The barb archer is a wild card. In one test, he cooperated and moved to the grass river tile, then attacked across the river at 13% when I moved warrior 4 to the hill with the other warrior. In another test, he moved west, then south towards city 3 site. I went ahead and settled city 3, which the archer promptly ignored. In a third run, he went to the GFH and attacked our warrior from there at something like 34%.
    • I think we have an MP problem. Unless the plan is to slow starve City 2 to run the scientists, City 2 needs an MP. This puts us in a dilemma if the barb archer doesn't cooperate and suicide itself. If the archer does kill itself, we can road both hills that were just chopped and warrior 4 can make it back in time. Otherwise, we will need to build an MP in the capital. I guess slow starve is an option, just seems a shame to be wasting food that takes so long to restore.
    • Sailing-masonry first has some advantages. Our high food capital can be whipping settlers into the GLH. We certainly don't want to miss GLH, capturing it from an AI might not be an option given the complicated diplomacy situation. Also, I don't want to lose city sites. I've not opened up the real game... do we have a sense as to the danger that an AI might grab one of our three city sites (corn or the two islands)?
    • On the other hand, putting our beakers (and bulb) into math, alpha and currency would give us a big boost in tech position, especially if we can backfill the key techs in trades. Math-alpha before sailing-masonry also speeds up our discovery of horses via AH trade. Maybe IW too. However, if we can't get masonry in a trade, we'll be pushing GLH out even further.
    • I guess netting it out... math-alpha carries risk with respect to GLH and REX, but carries potential for big reward on techs. It also mitigates some risk on barbs if we can get AH in an earlier trade. I'm thinking taking risks is necessary for winning laurels, so this is the way to go.
     
  16. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    13,408
    I agree. All that we can do is predict the most dangerous spots for him to move to and then plan contingencies for said cases.

    As it moves about, we just have to be ready to adjust our plans appropriately.

    With less Cities than in the test game, I don't foresee the Barb Rush happening for quite some time, so, as you say, City 3 is safe.

    Does anyone want to propose a name for City 3?


    That's exactly the plan. Great thinking! :goodjob:

    We need 15 Food and we'll have 16 Food.
    1 turn of G Riv Farm + 1 Scientist = +1 Food and 6 GPP
    8 turns of -2 Food = -16 Food and 8 * 12 = 96 GPP
    16 + 1 - 16 = 1 Food
    6 + 96 = 102 GPP

    So, that gives us: 2 turns to build the Library + 9 turns to get our Great Scientist

    Hopefully, we can learn Math within somewhere close to that time range, probably somewhere around 11 to 13 turns. We also have a 3rd Gems Mine that will get worked partway through researching Math.


    Isn't 16 Food a good trade for a Great Scientist? What else are we saving it for? An Unhappy, Unhealthy person who will refuse to work and cause us to lose 1 Food per turn? ;)

    Of course, in the future, we'll need a Military Police unit, but not for now.


    When do you think that it will get built?

    Math earns us +30 Hammers from 3 Forests, which earns us back roughly 3 turns of building The Great Lighthouse, as we can only make about 10 raw Hammers per turn or roughly an average amount of that many Hammers from whipping and then regrowing.


    No chance for missing out on the islands. Isabella in the test game doesn't exist in the real game.

    Corn City... it's possible that an AI will compete for it, but it looks like an AI would have to come from the west, as we've explored all of the land to the east and haven't found an AI there yet.


    Building a Lighthouse and 2-pop-whipping it after 1 turn of building it will get us no more Hammers overflowing into The Great Lighthouse than will putting 29 Hammers into a Lighthouse and then 2-pop-whipping it.

    By whipping later, assuming that we still have some Whipping Unhappiness remaining on our Whipping Unhappiness counter will likely net us more Hammers, as we'll have more turns of working Hammer-based squares instead of whipping right away and being at a smaller City Size.

    So, for example, if we made 8 H, 9 H, 9 H, then whipped on the 4th turn, then on the 5th turn overflowed the Hammers, that would give us 5 turns to learn Masonry. That's plenty of time.

    The only questions worth answering, thus, are:
    1. Is Willem one of the AIs who knows Sailing?
    AND
    2. Is the date that we can learn Mathematics too late for us to start on building a Lighthouse + The Great Lighthouse? Note that we should "earn back" about 3 turns from 3 the mainland Chops.

    I don't know how to answer #1 except to reveal his City and look for the presence of a Lighthouse.
     
  17. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Australia
    Checking back in, was on a work trip to NZ... good progress Dhoom.

    Re: Research
    - So far, the best city site, by far (3 fish & 3 PH!!) with overseas TR's thrown in for a bonus is only accessible from a galley....
    - If we go for Alpha, and Willem does not have Sailing = NO GLH for us. (not for certain obviously)
    - going Sailing -> Masonry allows us to begin a lighthouse much sooner, and without risk. Sure it means a little bit early GLH but there is no doubt that it is killer on this map!!!

    All this makes me lean strongly to Sailing - Masonry, but I will need to play it out in the test game to see the effects, both of when we can build GLH, but also on our settling strategies.

    I will have a stab at a name for City 3, "Moo", marginally more creative than 'Cow'.
     
  18. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    We can call City 3 "Surf n' Turf". :shifty:

    Agree with the risk represented by Math - Alpha.

    That makes Corn City next. Where are we thinking of planting Corn City?

    Would be nice to get the Barb Archer to attack a Warrior on a Wooded Hill tile. Can we coax him that way?
     
  19. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    More collection of data in regards to teching is spoilered below. It took some time to collect the data, but we've now got some conclusive info that should help us to move forward.
    Spoiler :
    T41, 2360 BC
    Just after we met Elizabeth
    At 31 Flasks per turn, we know that more than 1 AI knows Sailing
    At 31 Flasks per turn, we know that less than 3 AIs know Sailing
    So, as of T41, 2 AIs know Sailing
    Scores for T41, 2360 BC:
    127 Willem
    125 Elizabeth
    120 Us
    106 Shaka <-- the only change, by +10

    T40, 2400 BC
    Just before we met Elizabeth
    At 31 + some overflow Flasks, we know that:
    Less than 2 AIs know Sailing
    More than 0 AIs know Sailing
    So, one 1 AI knew Sailing

    So, as of T41, either Elizabeth knows Sailing and one of the other two knows Sailing
    OR
    Shaka didn't previously know Sailing and he learned it just as we met Elizabeth, such that Elizabeth does not know Sailing and Willem already knew Sailing
    +10 Score is a lot, so we don't really know much yet

    T28, 2880 BC
    The last real saved game that I have before meeting Shaka (T32, 2720 BC is the actual last saved game before having met Shaka)
    Unfortunately, we're in Anarchy, so I can't check for bonus Flasks :p

    T14, 3440 BC
    At only 11 Flasks per turn, I can't tell anything about bonus Flasks, and Willem was reseaching Polytheism (for Hinduism) at that time, anyway.

    Okay, let's try to see when someone DID learn Sailing
    T33, 2680 BC
    At 22 Flasks per turn, less than 1 AI knew Sailing
    So, neither Willem nor Shaka knew Sailing
    That's promising

    T37, 2520 BC
    At 29 plus some overflow Flasks, we know that:
    More than 0 AIs know Sailing
    Less than 2 AIs know Sailing
    So, someone has already learned Sailing by this turn

    T35, 2600 BC
    At 22 Flasks per turn, we know that:
    Less than 1 AI knows Sailing
    So, Sailing has not yet been learned

    T36, 2560 BC
    At 23 Flasks per turn, we know that:
    Less than 1 AI knows Sailing
    So, Sailing must have been learned by an AI after our T36 and before the start of our T37
    Scores on T36
    99 Us
    98 Willem
    96 Shaka

    Scores on T37
    105 (+6) Us
    104 (+6) Willem
    96 Shaka

    Shaka did not go up in Score, yay! :D


    So, Willem learned Sailing at the end of our T36!

    If you want an extra bit of proof, Shaka learned Bronze Working after the end of our T34 and revolted into Slavery after the end of our T35. Simply recall what Ambassador Milquetoast had to say on the subject.


    So, how does that fact help?
    Well, going by our test game as of T45, if we give ourselves Alphabet, and ensure that that Willem plus one of Sury or Isabella has Sailing, Willem will offer us Sailing in trade.


    If we want to do more "proof of concept" testing before playing forward, what we should focus on is:
    Getting Math ASAP

    That way, we can see when we will learn Math, which is when we'd Lightbulb Alphabet and thus be able to trade techs immediately, and therefore we can determine if we think that by getting Sailing on that turn, we can complete The Great Lighthouse by a reasonable date.


    After we learn Sailing, when can we complete The Great Lighthouse?
    Spoiler :
    Once we learn Sailing, even if we have to self-tech Masonry, we have 4 turns in which to learn Masonry (I think that I mistakenly said 5 turns previously), which is a given (unless we are losing badly and Barbs have Pillaged our Gems Mines), even if we have to save up Gold for 1 turn, as we'll be able to learn Masonry in the span of 3 turns even without overflow Flasks going into it.


    Thus, on the turn that we learn Sailing, we essentially can start putting:
    9H to 10H per turn into The Great Lighthouse

    So, let's say that we're at Size 5 with a nearly-full Foodbox:
    City Centre 1H
    Deer 2H
    GH Riv Mine 3H
    GH Mine 3H
    Fur 1H
    Some other square, say, the Crab 0H
    Total 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 0 = 10 H

    Turn 0
    Earn 10 H

    Turn 1
    Earn 10 H

    Turn 2
    Earn 9 H

    Turn 3
    2-pop-whip the Lighthouse
    At Size 3, say, work:
    City Centre 1H
    Deer 2H
    GH Riv Mine 3H
    GH Mine 3H
    Total = 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 = 9H

    Turn 4
    Regrew to Size 4
    City Centre 1H
    Deer 2H
    GH Riv Mine 3H
    GH Mine 3H
    Fur 1H
    Total 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 10 H

    Thus:
    Turn 0 = 10
    Turn 1 = 10
    Turn 2 = 9
    Turn 3 = 9
    Turn 4 onward = 10


    That's 21 turns for a 200-Hammer World Wonder
    Subtract 9 turns for 3 mainland Forest Chops

    That's 12 turns from the date of learning Sailing.

    We'd earn 16 Hammers from Chopping the island Forest that is 1E of the Fur, which saves us another 2 turns (to make up for the missing 2 Hammers from 2 turns of 9 Hammers per turn).

    Therefore, if we also get a Galley, say, whipped from City 2 or City 3, we should be able to complete The Great Lighthouse 10 turns from the date of learning Sailing.

    I'm assuming that we'd save the G For that is 2E of X-opolis for Fur City's Granary, although if things were tight and we had enough Worker turns, we could Chop it to save another 3 turns on The Great Lighthouse's date, bringing that date down to 7 turns from the date of learning Sailing, again, assuming that we'd managed our Worker micro well.


    Corn City
    Likely 1W of the Corn for 6 Forest Chops or 1E of the Corn for 5 Forest Chops. Settling 1S of the Corn for 7 Forest Chops and being off of the Coast doesn't seem to be worth it.

    Here are a couple of images, with some possible future Cities, including filler Cities, placed:
    Spoiler :





    Barb Archer
    I have been trying. I'm not sure if a Barb Archer that is 2 squares away who can see your unit still moves completely randomly or if he does a calculation to see whether he thinks that he can beat you and rushes you if he thinks that he can win... I've been hoping for the latter and have thus been trying to "bait" the Archer, but it might just be a big waste of time. ;)

    As soon as the Archer moves adjacent to one of our Warriors, though, that Barb Archer is almost certainly going to attack us on the following turn, so it's just a matter of time.
     
  20. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    13,408
    More Discussion about the next Turnset
    Let's compare the options at a high level. It's all about the number of turns to get started, as once we get the techs that we need, the timing will be relatively set, as it's only the timing of learning Sailing that matters, and Masonry should come in fast enough with either approach to not lead to any sort of a delay.

    If we race toward Sailing, it will take us 2 turns of saving up Gold and 4 turns of research, so, 6 turns.

    If we race toward Math, we'll learn Math prior to getting our Great Scientist, at least in a case where I got us working our 3rd Gems Mine ASAP and 2-pop-whipped Cap's Library when Cap was about to grow to Size 5.

    To get a Great Scientist, we need 2 turns to build a Library plus 9 turns to generate the Great Scientist, so, 11 turns.

    3 Chops bringing in +10 Hammers saves us 3 turns, so, that's a difference of 11 - 6 - 3 = 2 turns.

    Roughly going from my above numbers, 11 turns from now + 10 turns to complete The Great Lighthouse with the use of only 1 island Chop means:
    T45 + 21 = T66, 1360 BC. Soon enough, do we think?

    Building it 2 turns earlier, on T64, 1440 BC, is the alternative option.


    If we're really desperate to speed up The Great Lighthouse by a fraction, we can sacrifice Fur City's future development by using the other island Chop or we can whip the last bit of it.


    Thus, I'd rather just accept that we'll go for Math and start talking about what our Cities will build and our Workers will make.


    City 2 or City 3 basically could start on either a Granary or a Worker (well, start on a Worker at Size 2 for City 2).

    Cap could build a Settler or a Worker.


    We may want at least 1 Worker in position to Pasture a Cow 11 turns from now.

    We will probably want to pre-Chop some of Cap's Forests... yes, we essentially "lose" a Worker turn moving to a Forest twice (so it is also arguable that we could invest yet ANOTHER Worker turn per Forest to build a Road that might not see much future use... do we want to do so?), but it can also be argued that having to bring in 2 or 3 Workers when we only have 3 Workers for now, just to Chop those Forests within a short time period, will also cost us additional Worker turns in terms of moving our Workers "from here to there and back again," so I wouldn't stress too much about "losing" Worker turns due to Pre-chopping.

    If we don't pre-Chop, then we'll need to commit at least 2 Workers to Chopping the 3 mainland Forests, since it takes a minimum of 3 turns of movement and 3 * 3 = 9 turns of Chopping to get the Chops done, and our target is to get those Chops completed within a 6-turn timeframe, meaning Pre-chopping 2 of those Forests and partially Chopping the third one.


    City 3's GH Riv For Gems' Forest should almost certainly go into a Granary. We'll just get 20 Hammers out of it, in exchange for more Commerce, earning +6 Commerce per turn.

    Yet, we probably won't benefit for a while by completing that Granary soon.

    Then, there's the fact that once our Cow get Pastured, we'll want the City to be at Size 3, to work the Crab, GH Riv Gems, and the G Cow almost continuously.

    At some point post-Math, we could possibly Chop the GH For that is 3N of City 3 for 16 Hammers, to help with finishing off a Granary.

    Before then, we could certainly aim to grow to Size 3 and then start on a Worker, or possibly start on a Worker sometime while at Size 2.


    City 2 could also potentially Chop the GH Riv For that is NW + NW of the City for 16 Hammers post-Math, say, if we wanted to only use 1 population point to Whip a Galley... 30 from the Whip + 16 H = 46, so we could complete a Galley 3 turns after learning Sailing this way, or else we could complete the Galley 2 turns after learning Sailing.

    One benefit of the 1-pop-whipping approach is that allows the City to continuously work the 2 Gems Mines while also working either a G Riv Farm or the Wheat to regrow reasonably quickly. Of course, there is a cost in terms of Worker turns that we don't really have.

    So, we could also plan to leave this City at Size 2 for a while by 2-pop-whipping a Galley and getting a 4th Worker out of the deal, which we could desperately use. Thus, we'll probably end up 2-pop-whipping the Galley and building a Worker after a Library, but we should test it out to see when that 4th Worker will come out and if it will come out in time to help with The Great Lighthouse or if it should, say, be the Worker that goes to Corn City.

    1 Worker for the island
    1 Worker to finish off Forest Chops around Cap on the mainland
    1 Worker to Pasture the Cow
    1 Worker to Farm the Corn

    That Worker force is still short on Workers who can Chop massively around Corn City, but I still like the idea a 4th mainland City before getting Fur City up, as one can always start Chopping as soon as those Forests are within our Cultural Borders.

    Perhaps we'll simply be Chopping 30-Hammer Chops into Settlers for the islands, thereby sticking with our original thinking of letting the AIs get the other Wonders and focusing on REX.

    Settling extra Cities via Chopping into Settlers instead of Chopping into Wonders for Failure Gold seems to be a better investment for Forest Chops, especially after netting The Great Lighthouse.


    The Island Worker can Chop the G For where we'll settle Fur City, then Camp the Fur, and then his extra duties are just "time killers" until a Settler arrives there: Roading the Fur and Pre-Cottaging the G For that is 2E of Cap and which really should go into Fur City's Granary.


    The weakest part about the 3-Fish island is that it has no easy way to get a Granary quickly via a Chop, and the fact that we won't get +1 Happiness from settling it, although we'll probably work a PH Mine at Size 2 or Size 3 to get the Granary coming out sooner for the 3-Fish Island City.


    As for the Barb Archer, maybe the best thing for us to do is to send Worker 4 to the GH For that is 1NW of the GH Riv For Gems. If we win that battle, yay. If we lose that battle, the Barb Archer will hopefully attack the GH Riv For Gems' Warrior on the following turn.

    If we don't do so, then City 3's Cultural Borders may cause the Barb Archer to just go after the Scout or our western Warrior instead, which I suppose could be fine in the case of the western Warrior, but not in the case of the Scout.


    I think that the Cap 2-pop-whipping the Library and then immediately regrowing to Size 4 and dumping Hammers into Settler 4 makes sense, then, if we don't lose a Warrior to the Archer, send a Warrior to Cap to act as a Military Police unit and regrow to Size 4, otherwise just complete the Settler while at Size 3.


    For Cities 2 and 3, we still need to work things out. Any testing that we do should probably focus on what we can squeeze out of those 2 Cities.


    I have a feeling that no matter what we do, City 3 won't be contributing much in the short run, besides growing itself and earning Commerce, in preparation for that City being great in the future.



    EDIT: I like the looks of 1E of the Corn for Corn City
    - A lot of G Rivs that can be Farmed, and which can be prepared for a later Fish City
    - Room for a City 2W of the Corn as a later filler City
    - Good spawn-busting of both the west and the east
    - Saves a Forest
    - Doesn't force us to put in a filler City north of the Gems to use up some of the Riverside squares


    EDIT: TSR seems to have picked up Alphabet on Turn 54, 1840 BC. That is, unless you know of another way for your Score to shoot up during the middle of a turn other than getting techs in trade.
     

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