SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    As usual, the Science Rates will need to be worked out before playing, but we've got a pretty good basis of a plan going forward here.

    City 3 could slow-build a 10-turn Worker starting on T53, if we wanted. Or, we could just focus on getting the Granary.

    Thinking about it some more, it could be a strong play to put Corn City NW of the G Riv Gems... that way, Corn City can initially work a good square (the Gems Mine), while allowing City 2 to regrow at a reasonable pace after having 2-pop-whipped a Galley.

    Instead of having City 2 steal the Wheat for a turn when Cap is at Size 2, we could technically have Cap work the Wheat + Deer so that on T53 or later, Cap can grow to Size 5 in the span of 1 turn while being Happy (assuming that we've managed to keep a Warrior alive to act as a Military Police unit). Or, similarly, we could grow on T52 and T53 with the current approach of getting Food from the Crab instead of the Wheat on T49, 2040 BC, grow into Happiness at Size 5 on T54. However, then we'd delay Settler 4, which would mean a delay in getting started on TGLH.

    So, I think that we'll be well served by what's in the PPP, as, on T56 we can start on a Lighthouse, earning 7H per turn for 2 turns and 10H for 1 turn, but also earning 7 overflow Hammers, so thus just being 3H short of 30H and thus can still 2-pop-whip the Lighthouse while at Size 5.

    If Corn City gets settled to share City 2's G Riv Gems Mine, then City 2 can regrow reasonably quickly by stealing Cap's Wheat when Cap doesn't need it due to only being able to sustain 4 Happy people.

    I'm still not sure if it makes sense to partially build a Worker in City 2 or to focus on the Granary, but since the Granary will take a while to significantly pay off, I'm thinking that the Worker makes sense, with us probably Chopping the GH Riv For where we'd settle Corn City for 13 Hammers going into City 2, helping us to earn back some of those invested Worker turns by producing another Worker.



    Better version of the PPP
    T45, 2200 BC

    Open Borders with Willem

    Stay at 0% Science on Math

    War4: Move 1N GH Riv For Gems


    T46, 2160 BC
    C1: Granary completed -> Library

    100% Science on Math (34 Flasks = a good amount of bonus Flasks)

    C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    C2: Grab the G Riv Farm
    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 G Riv Farms

    W1: Road GH (2W of City 2)
    W2: Road GH (1SW of City 2)
    W3: Move 1NW G (2E of the G Cow), pRoad, and STOP

    WB3: Move 1N Crab and Net
    Settler 3: Move 1W G (1E of the G Cow) and settle at Cow-1E
    C2: Work the Crab (growth in 6 turns), build a Granary

    War3: Move 1W G (1E of the G Cow) into where we'll settle City 3
    War4: Move 1NW GH For (1NW of the GH Riv For Gems)


    T47, 2120 BC

    50% Science on Math (only lose 0.37 fractional Flasks instead of 0.50 fractional Flasks and a slightly better amount of bonus Flasks; no fractional Gold)

    C2: 2 G Riv Farms -> 2 Scientist
    C2: Switch to building a Worker

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab

    W3: Move 2N to the GH Riv For Gems


    T48, 2080 BC

    Science 100% (0.25 fractional Flask loss and a good amount of bonus Flasks)

    C1: Grew to Size 4: Work the GRiv Farm (otherwise the Library will become a 1-pop-whipping action)

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab

    W1: pMine the GH that is 2W of City 2 and STOP
    W2: Road the G at Cow-1E
    W3: Road the GH Riv For Gems


    T49, 2040 BC

    C1: 2-pop-whip the Library
    C2: 1 Scientist -> Wheat
    C2: Build the Granary

    C1: Deer and Crab
    C2: 2 Gems, 1 Sci, Wheat
    C3: Crab

    W3: Road the GH Riv For Gems
    W1: Move to GH Riv that is 2NW of City 2
    W2: Move to the GH Riv For Gems, pChop, and STOP
    Although, note that 7 units outside of our Cultural Borders = 1 Unit Supply, while 8 = 2 Unit Supply

    T50, 2000 BC

    Science Rate at 100% for certain with Cap's Library having been completed

    C1: Size 3: Work the Wheat
    C1: Settler
    C2: Wheat -> Sci
    C2: Worker

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists (6 turns to a Great Scientist)
    C3: Crab

    W1: Road the GH Riv For at 2NW of City 2
    W3: pChop the GH Riv For Gems and STOP
    W2: pMine the GH that is 2W of City 2 and STOP

    T51, 1960 BC

    C1: Barracks

    W1: Complete the Road on the GH Riv For that is 2NW of City 2
    W2 and W3: pMine the GH Riv For Gems and STOP


    T52, 1920 BC

    16 Gold remaining at -8 Gold per Turn, but we have about 2.3 turns left to go on Math... so, somewhere earlier, prior to Cap's Library being completed, we'll have to switch to 1 or 2 turns of 0% Science... we just need to learn Math by the end of T55, so that we can Lightbulb Alphabet at the start of T56

    Great Scientist will arrive in 4 turns

    C1: Size 4, work the GH Riv Mine
    C1: Settler (complete in 4 turns)
    C3: Size 2, work the GH Riv Mine Gems

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists (6 turns to a Great Scientist)
    C3: Crab, Gems

    W1: Chop the GH Riv For Gem's Forest into City 3's Granary
    W2 and W3: Complete Mine on the GH Riv For Gems

    T53, 1880 BC

    One of the Workers moves to the G For at Cap-NW+W...
    T54 + T55 Pre-chop
    T56 Move to another Forest
    T57 + T58 Pre-chop
    T59 Move to another Forest
    T60 - T62 Chop that Forest into The Great Lighthouse
    T63 Move
    T64 Chop into TGLH
    T65 Move
    T66 Chop into TGLH

    That would mean TGLH on T67, unless we have another Worker help out in finishing off one of the Forests, which we could probably do
     
  2. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    I was positive towards math and alphabet after your last discussion and this post have made me even more in favour of it.

    I would like someone to check how many AIs need to know sailing for William to trade it to us.

    Which turn did we met Shaka on? How many beakers do we need to gift him to bring him to pleased?

    I think our game looks strong if our gamble to have nothing but warriors pays off.

    Did anyone else consider why William has so small army? Something is amiss.
     
  3. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Here's what I checked on the subject so far:
    Other factors can influence the chance of him trading Sailing, such as him building Moai Statues (say, if he has Stone), a unit being in the world with a greater Strength than the Highest-Strength unit in our test game as of T45, or Willem meeting additional AIs who may or may not have learned Sailing themselves.

    Then, there's the chance that additional AIs learn Sailing over the next 11 turns (such as whomever out of Shaka or Elizabeth doesn't know Sailing). Fortunately, there's no way for an AI to "unlearn" a tech. :)

    Willem has the 4th easiest chance of trading a tech... either to us or to an AI if either he or that AI knows Alphabet, since his iTechTradeKnownPercent is 15, which is only beaten by Mansa at 0, and Pericles and Peter at 10. Even Asoka and Gandhi, who are often used in Hall of Fame games, have a higher value at 20.

    For reference:
    iTechTradeKnownPercent
    Willem = 15
    Catherine = 20
    Elizabeth = 40
    Shaka = 50 = Sury
    Isabella = 60

    Also, for reference:
    iNoTechTradeThreshold
    Willem = 15
    Catherine = 15
    Elizabeth = 15
    Shaka = 5
    Isabella = 5

    The fact that Willem will easily trade techs to others is one reason why I would like us to hang on to Alphabet for as long as possible. TSR may have rushed to self-tech Alphabet and then may find themselves trading it around... I'd rather that we be the world's trade brokers for as long as possible.

    Alphabet, unlike in Vanilla, doesn't unlock any techs which Math won't unlock, so it's actually even stronger in BtS to horde Alphabet to yourself (whereas in Vanilla, you can gift it to hope for the AIs to research Literature or Drama on your behalf).


    We met Shaka after the end of our T32. We met Shaka at the same time as Sury in the test game. That fact was intentionally set up so that this very question can be answered. Feel free to advance the test game to T56, gift yourself some techs, and then play around.

    Of course, we need to be aware of whatever an AI is partially researching... you can check by opening up the World Builder, hitting F6, and then switching to Sury's name in the drop-down list at the top left of the screen to see which tech he has selected next. If he doesn't have a tech selected, it's because he just learned a tech and hasn't picked his next selection yet.

    I have a feeling that Shaka will be best used for techs like Archery, that everyone will have, or Animal Husbandry (if he has it), since it's a non-monopoly tech and thus it will be traded by any AI who learns it.


    The trouble is that we don't know if we'll need +1 or +4 or somewhere in between to get Shaka up to Pleased, so it's a tough question to answer.

    If we had a turn where Shaka was either Annoyed or Pleased toward us, we could figure out that number, but in the absense of that data (I don't recall seeing it happen), it's a bit of guesswork as to "how much" we'd have to gift to him.

    I want the neighbours to get Math from us soon, though, so that they can chase after post-Math techs on our behalf, whether we get said techs via trade or via the sword.


    It's costly to have a large army when a Civ only has 1 City. The stranger question for me is why he only has 1 City. He CAN'T be on an island, since BSPollux said that Willem is on the same continent as us. But, BSPollux didn't say that Willem wasn't surrounded by impassable Peaks, which would still count as being on the same continent. ;)
     
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Corn City
    Before we proceed with the next turnset, we should figure out where we're going to place Corn City. In particular, we should decide upon the purpose of that City.

    What we do in Gems City is going to be affected by our decision, since I'd currently like Corn City to share a Gems Mine with Gems City, but if we don't do so, Corn City will be more limited in what it can do.

    Are we okay with settling Corn City on the G Riv that is 2N of the G Riv Gems Mine? I.e. SE + E of the G Corn?

    Yes, it's not on the Coast, but that'll mean:
    1. We can share a Gems Mine, so that Gems City can regrow at a reasonable pace after 2-pop-whipping a Galley; otherwise, we'll need to 1-pop-whip a Galley and probably skip building Worker 4 out of Gems City
    2. Still getting 5 Forests within our big-fat cross
    3. Pretty decent spawn-busting of the entire area
    4. A chance to use 2 GH Riv For squares that Gems City just missed out on (NW + NW and NW + NW + N of Gems City)
    5. A large number of Riverside squares
    6. A slightly better value for Chopping the Forest before settling the northern Fish City in the north (a very minor point), while leaving us the option to put the northern Fish City either on the River or off of the River
    7. No need to build a Lighthouse :p (there are enough good squares to work to never have to worry about not being able to work Coast squares there)


    Basically, we need to know now, so that we can determine if Gems City can produce Worker 4 or if we'll have to just stick with the Granary and 1-pop-whipping the Galley with help from a Chop, in order to keep Gems City at Size 3 so that it can still work the Wheat when Cap doesn't need it, but without ever stopping to work a Gems Mine.


    Not being on the Coast will mean 2 less Commerce per turn once we have 2 island Cities, Currency, and The Great Lighthouse. It seems like a small price to pay for being able to constantly work the 2 Gems Mines while not handicapping Gems City in the process.


    Second Great Scientist
    I foresee Gems City as being the City to generate Great Scientist #2 for us.

    Regrowing Gems City to Size 4 with 17 Food in the Foodbox would allow us to work: G Riv Farm, 1 Gems Mine, and 2 Scientists, losing 1 Food per turn for 17 turns (17 turns * 12 GPP per turn = 204 GPP).

    However, if we can't offload that 2nd Gems Mine to another City, we would:
    i. have to grow Gems City to Size 5 (+28 Food) or the equivalent of growing it, starving it down, growing it, then starving it down again
    AND
    ii. need a Military Police unit
    AND
    iii. would need to get another Health Resource online

    Doing all of that could delay our second Great Scientist.


    Out of the locations to settle Corn City such that it gets both the G Corn and one of Gem City's Gems Mines, 2N of the northern Gems Mine (the G Riv Gems Mine) and SE + E of the G Corn seems to me to be the best location.
     
  5. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    My problem is that the test game is also made with HoF so I can't check it from here.

    So how many buildings and units does Sailing unlock? What is our current relationship with Shaka? We will need to get him to +4 to make him pleased. At turn 55 it should be about 92 beakers for each +1. Since his techs are cheaper then ours it is going to be more.

    So william has a value of 15 for itechknowntrade (or whatever the name is). But what is the monopoly value for Sailing? It unlocks 1 building and 2 units and then how many unique units?

    My estimate is that the monoply value is 150%. So at least 22.5% of the other players William has met needs to know sailing for him to trade it. For some reason my install here does not have the source code so I can't look to make sure it is correct.

    As for TSR. Perhaps they are conquering cities. that will increase score in the middle of a turn. But without copper it does not seem as likly.

    As for corn city. With GLH and sailing I think we would be missing 4 commerce a turn by not having it coastal. We will have 6 overseas trade routes and I think we will have at least 6 foreign trade routes. I would be willing to skip a few turns of working the gem mine to not loose 4 gpt. But let us see if there is any more seafood north of the desert.
     
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Grab BUFFY. It's a small download and doesn't take long to install.



    EDIT: The Great Lighthouse shows up there, instead of showing up under Masonry
    Moai Statues (National Wonder)
    Lighthouse
    Trading Post


    Galley


    That's visible in screenshots on the Scoreboard... the grey coloured "neutral smile" face represents Cautious. I haven't seen his Attitude toward us vary from Cautious. I just double-checked my screenshots, which have a Score screenshotted nearly every turn, and the screenshots match what my memory said: Shaka has constantly been Cautious toward us.


    Shaka is currently Annoyed toward Elizabeth at +2. Previously, Shaka was Cautious toward Elizabeth at +2. So, we might want to wait until Turn 60, when every player will get +1 with every other player (assuming no wars) for Shaka to no longer hate Elizabeth, before making major trades with either of those two.

    Minor trades could include a trade similar to "Writing for something," which wouldn't anger a player too much for having Traded with their Worst Enemy. That "something" could be Animal Husbandry, for example.

    We might have to hold off on gifting/selling Math to one or both of those two until Turn 60, though, unless they find another AI to hate more as their Worst Enemies. Willem can certainly get Math nearly right away, though, and we should hopefully see his Research by then to know if he decided to go after Currency.


    It's 4 Buildings, two of which are Wonders. Which would be the second unit, though? Triremes get unlocked with Metal Casting. Fishing Boats get unlocked with Fishing.


    Looking at the test game from T52, where Willem has not yet built Moai Statues, no one has built The Great Lighthouse, and by giving ourselves Alphabet:
    If Willem knows 2 AIs, 1 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 3 AIs, 1 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 4 AIs, 1 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 5 AIs, 2 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 6 AIs, 2 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 7 AIs, 2 of them must know Sailing
    If Willem knows 8 AIs, 2 of them must know Sailing

    I don't see a problem there at all.


    Good point. The timing points toward Alphabet, but it's possible that they found a Horse Resource and Chariot rushed an AI.

    As an important point to keep in mind, though, they would have had to have delayed Writing to do so, as you'd need BOTH Animal Husbandry AND The Wheel in order to build Chariots. Getting The Wheel post-Writing wouldn't really give you enough time to build sufficient Chariots to hit an AI that isn't even all that close to us, even if a City were settled directly on top of a Horse Resource.

    So, if they did Chariot Rush, they'll be behind in the tech race. That team favours an early Library when Creative, so I highly doubt that they delayed Writing and thus Alphabet seems to fit the facts better.

    We know that they didn't find Copper (unless via a lucky Resource pop?) anywhere close by, and teching to Iron Working would have taken too long.


    Let's work through the math.

    For now, we only have Domestic Trade Routes, but let's assume that we have Foreign Trade Routes with both Willem and Shaka. That would mean 4 Foreign Trade Routes.

    Upon settling Corn City, we wouldn't have The Great Lighthouse or Currency yet, so settling inland or not will net us a 2-Commerce Foreign Trade Route, as Shaka + Willem have 4 Cities amongst them.

    We'd then complete The Great Lighthouse. Our Foreign Trade Routes would be used up and we wouldn't have any islands settled yet, so we'd miss out on two 1-Commerce Trade Routes.

    We'd get an island settled roughly around the time of learning Currency. So, our City would have a 2-Commerce Trade Route from the island and possibly a 2-Commerce Trade Route from a Foreign City... but... we'd have bigger other Cities that would probably "use up" the Foreign Trade Routes first anyway. Even with, say, 6 Foreign Trade Routes at that time, we might see:
    Cap = 1 island Trade Route, 3 Foreign Trade Routes
    City 2 = 1 island Trade Route, 3 Foreign Trade Routes
    City 3 = 1 island Trade Route, 3 Domestic Trade Routes
    Corn City = 1 island Trade Route, 1 Domestic Trade Route; still just missing out on two 1-Commerce Trade Routes
    Island City 1 = 4 mainland Trade Routes

    After the second island City gets settled, we would have:
    Cap = 2 island Trade Routes, 2 Foreign Trade Routes
    City 2 = 2 island Trade Routes, 2 Foreign Trade Routes
    City 3 = 2 island Trade Routes, 2 Foreign Trade Routes
    Corn City = 2 island Trade Routes; still just missing out on two 1-Commerce Trade Routes assuming that there are no more than 6 Foreign Trade Routes
    Island City 1 = 4 mainland Trade Routes
    Island City 2 = 4 mainland Trade Routes

    As additional mainland Cities get settled, they'll be able to "eat up" two Foreign Trade Routes each. So, for every 1 City that we settle, the AIs could settle 2 Cities and we still would only be missing out on two 1-Commerce Trade Routes.

    Contrast that with missing out on working the Gems Mine, which is 2 F + 1 H + 7 C... the citizen that works the square eats the two food, so that's missing out on 1 H + 7 C per turn of not working that Gems Mine.


    What I'm saying is that we'll want our second Great Scientist out pretty soon.

    If Surfin' Turf will be our production City, it won't be hiring 2 Scientists. Cap is too good at whipping to hire 2 Scientists and we'd pollute the gene pool, perhaps getting a Great Merchant. Corn City could theoretically hire the Scientists, but we'd probably want a Granary and a Library first, plus then be at least at Size 3, which would take a while to set things up.

    So, Gems City is the natural location from which to generate Great Scientist #2.

    The trouble is that 2 Gems Mines + 2 Scientsts = -2 Food per turn.

    But, if we can hand off a Gems Mine to another City, then: 1 G Riv Farm + 1 Gems Mine + 2 Scientists = -1 Food per turn, which makes it a whole lot easier to get our Great Scientist #2 sooner.


    I went with your number of 6 for Foreign Trade Routes in the medium term (we might not even get more than 1 if we keep Borders Closed for a while to avoid angering Worst Enemies), and we'd still only ever be short by two 1-Commerce Trade Routes.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you say 6 overseas Trade Routes. Yes, the island Cities will get 4 overseas Trade Routes each, but the mainland Cities will just get 2 overseas Trade Routes each.

    Only if and when we find and settle a third island would we be missing a 2-Commerce Trade Route, but by that point in the game, +1 Commerce will be an insignificant factor.

    In fact, it could be argued that by settling Corn City where I have suggested, long before that time, we'll be making +1 or +2 Commerce per turn just by being able to work extra Riverside squares, essentially balancing out any lost Commerce by earning more Commerce when working GH Riv Mines in place of GH Mines or G Riv Farms in place of G For squares.


    Okay, but it's a max of 2 GPT until we find and settle a third island City. Contrast that with a net 1 H and 7 Commerce per turn and I don't really think that we should ever stop working any of the Gems Mines.


    There's only 1 spot where it could be, and settling Corn City to share a Gems Mine will not block that settling location.

    Pretty picture:
    Spoiler :



    EDIT: Even with settling Corn City to overlap 1 Gems Mine, perhaps the best approach is that Gems City shouldn't try to build Worker 4 and we should aim to 1-pop-whip a Galley while focusing on getting out its Granary in the short term. Regrowing from Size 3 to Size 4 would then start us off with a nearly-half-full Foodbox and we'd be able to quickly start on generating Great Scientist #2.
     
  7. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I like this last picture. I'd consider settling the blue X even if there are not fish under the FOW. At some point, it can take the corn from corn city when corn city reaches max pop. With the GLH trade routes and working some sea tiles it will be a profitable city.
     
  8. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    To me it is not obvious that the corn city should be our next city. Settling fur or fish island gives us an instant burst in commerce. Corn city will be worth 1 commerce now and 1-3 commerce when GLH finishes. Island city is 3 commerce now and 9 when the GLH finishes.

    Tried but it fails for some reason. I will try from an other place tomorrow.

    I did not think wonders gave monopoly value. And I thought trimenes gave monopoly value for both sailing and metal casting. I'm certain trading post does not give monopoly value since it is a unqiue building.

    Your testing confirms that monopoly value for Sailing is close to 150%.

    It should only be a problem if William has contact with other (all) civs. Did he spend 100% espionage at us from the start? I do not realy think it will be a problem but when we hinge our strategy on it we should know what the requirements of it succeding.
     
  9. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    The point of Corn City is that it will give us more Hammers in the short term than will an island City. We've already focused heavily on Commerce. Many other teams have settled City 3 earlier, presumably by getting less Workers earlier. There is nothing wrong with our approach. It's actually a pretty good opening. But, I'd rather that we make the switch to getting more Hammers once our immediate Commerce needs have been met. Settler 4 comes out at around the time of when we'll learn Alphabet, at which point a bit more Commerce certainly won't hurt, but we're going to be in desperate need of more Hammers to make best use of The Great Lighthouse.

    After Mathematics + probably Masonry + Currency, Commerce won't matter all that much for a while.

    But, with The Great Lighthouse coming online, we're going to want to spam Settlers, and hence we want a production City... G Corn Farm + G Riv Farms for whipping and Forests for Chopping into a Granary + Settlers.

    Being able to offload 1 Gems Mine makes Gems City able to generate our Great Scientist #2 a whole lot faster. I'd rather get an Academy faster than worry about settling Corn City on the Coast and delay the Academy. It's okay to have some inland Cities if they serve a good purpose, and sharing a Gems Mine is a good purpose from the standpoint of getting an earlier Academy.


    Either island City will be a Hammer sink, rather than a Hammer gain. Work Boats are a Hammer investment, and neither one has much in the way of Forests... 1 Forest for Fur City and 0 Forests for Triple Fish City.

    If we can get more Hammers sooner, it'll mean more Cities overall, and that's what we'll want for making the best use out of The Great Lighthouse.

    You don't need to convince me of the Commerce gain by settling Fur City... I agree with you on that point. I'm just saying that I'd rather focus on pumping out more Settlers in the medium term, and settling Corn City as City #4 seems to be a strong way to do so.


    Ahhh, yes, the GOTM server is down. Does anyone have the BUFFY-3.19.003.exe file available that they can .zip up and then upload here as a file attachment?


    Well, I have a spreadsheet from Tachywaxon (Manco Capac) which shows that for BtS, there are a ton of factors:
    i. Strongest unit in the world <-- hard to calculate
    ii. Number of contacts that Willem has
    iii. How many of those contacts have Sailing
    iv. Does Willem have his hands full
    v. Is circumnavigation still available
    vi. Is there an AI somewhere who is alone on their own landmass
    vii. Does Willem have his hands full AND shares 8 or more border squares with an AI OR is plotting war with an overseas AI
    viii. Varying values for each type of unit unlocked by the tech... in this case, we ignore Unique Units from other Civs and we only count units <-- hard to say if Triremes count, as per the Sevopedia, or if they don't count, as per the F6 TECHS screen
    ix. Total number of the non-Wonder Buildings, INCLUDING Unique Buildings from all Civs (which is one of the reasons why Construction is highly monopolistic, since there are a ton of Unique Colosseum Buildings) that get unlocked by this tech, "just as the Civilopedia presents it"... this comment is ambiguous, as it is not stated for Units... the Sevopedia has Trireme listed for both Sailing and Metal Casting, while the F6 TECHS screen only has Trireme listed under Sailing... I would thus tend to go with the F6 TECHS screen for Units and the Sevopedia for Buildings, including Unique Buildings, but I'm not sure about this point
    x. Total number of the Wonders unlocked by Sailing
    xi. Subtract the total number of Wonders that were already built
    xii. World Projects unlocked
    xiii. World Projects already built

    I think that it's much easier to just use a test game. :p


    Willem has been spending around 3 to 4 EPs per turn on us for the last little while and he has spent more on us than we have spent on him, even though we've spent 4 EPs per turn on him from the start of the game.


    Let's say that Willem does know everyone. Isn't there a pretty good chance that some of those AIs will also have learned Sailing? The "worst case" scenario according to my testing results is that he knows only 5 AIs... but, only 2 of them would have to know Sailing, and we see that 50% of the other 2 AIs that we know about already have Sailing. What are the odds that all 3 of said other AIs do not know Sailing and still won't know it after another 11 turns, and that the AI out of Shaka and Elizabeth who doesn't know Sailing also won't learn it over the next 11 turns?


    AI Behaviour Testing
    Since I had a saved game where all of the AIs had met us, I tried some experimenting.

    By doing nothing, I received a lot of requests to Open Borders. Also, I received many requests to trade techs or to give a tech to an AI for free.

    So, I played around again, with Willem (who also knew every other player) declaring war on all of the AIs. This time, I also received requests to join in on their war.

    Then, I tried again with Willem going to war, peace, war, then finally peace with each of the other AIs, so that he would become their Worst Enemy on the following turn.

    I then Opened Borders with everyone and sold or gifted Writing to everyone.

    Interestingly, everything became completely quiet for 10 turns, and then the requests to trade techs or to stop trading with Willem started coming in.

    Some possible observations, based on things that I've heard previously in the forums and appear to have confirmed:
    1. It SEEMS that if you've Opened Borders with someone's Worst Enemy, they can't ask you to stop trading with that Worst Enemy until there is at least one deal that can be cancelled... if someone has seen a counter-example, please speak up

    2. It SEEMS that AIs will come asking for you to make a tech trade or gift them a tech if you haven't done any trading with them "recently." "Recently" seems to be defined by TRADED_TECH_TO_US:
    Shaka = 5
    Willem = 5
    Isabella = 5
    Elizabeth = 15
    Catherine = 15

    If those things are true, here are some possible conclusions:
    1. Open Borders with Elizabeth and Shaka roughly 9 turns before Turn 60, on Turn 52 (maybe Turn 53 to be safe, to give a turn for a Worst Enemy relationship to wear off), and hope that +1 Attitude for "60 years of Peace" is also enough to get Elizabeth to stop hating Shaka (previous evidence makes it look like it should be enough to get Shaka to stop hating Elizabeth).

    2. Perhaps don't trade ANY techs to Shaka for a bit, in the hopes that he'll Demand a tech from us for +1 Attitude. Of course, he has a factor of 1 / 10 as a likelihood of Demanding a tech, according to the Civ Illustrated link on the first page of our thread, but it's a possibility. That said, he does has a factor of 4 / 10 for asking for help, so maybe that factor will kick in (I'm not sure if an AI must be Pleased toward you in order to be able to ask you for help or if the AI simply has to roll a dice roll that says "if the human player refuses, I won't consider going to war with them, as it wasn't a demand"... does anyone know?).


    Gems City Micro
    Also, I took the opportunity to play around... it's going to be very valuable to get our Granary in Gems City.

    So, I think that we'll need to do something like...
    Don't build Worker 4 out of Gems City
    2-pop-whip the Galley there (we really need the extra Hammers to complete the Granary)
    Overflow the Hammers into the Granary
    Chop the GH Riv For that is NW + NW of Gems City for 16 Hammers (post-Math) into the Granary (or into the already-whipped Galley, as the Hammers will still go into the Granary)... later, we would have earned +8 H for that Forest, once it came within our Cultural Borders, but earning +12 F now instead is a far better payoff, especially since getting the Food now means getting our Academy sooner
    As soon as Corn City gets settled, have Gems City work 1 Gems Mine + the Wheat that Cap won't need while building The Great Lighthouse
    We will need a Warrior to come back as a Military Police unit once Gems City hits Size 4, until the Whipping operation wears off
    Regrow Gems City with the help of the Granary and then hire 2 Scientist Specialists again, working only 1 Gems Mine the entire time so as to promote faster growth and to reduce shrinkage while generating Great Scientist #2


    Barb Archer
    I'm still not sure what's best to do with him. Engaging him to lure him to attack us on the GH Riv For Gems poses the risk of us losing first one Warrior and then the second Warrior with bad dice rolls.

    Letting the Barb Archer randomly wander and eventually go west when our Cultural Borders expand, such that he possibly engages our western spawn-buster (Warrior 2) isn't too bad of an option, as we'd at least get a 100% Defensive Bonus and even if we lost the fight, our Gems square wouldn't be threatened.

    It would be nice if our Scout were a Warrior, as then we could try to get the Barb Archer to attack us across of the River up there. We could certainly try to get Warrior 4 to work his way up there, but it will take several turns to do so.

    I think that we'll just have to keep playing it turn-by-turn and adapt as best as possible.
     
  10. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Sure.
     

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  11. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    It looks like Corn City will primarily be a commerce city? If so, perhaps we should consider moving it one tile west to give us an extra river grass tile for cottaging? Also, if you want more hammers, this site includes another grass hill with a forest chop.

    Thinking the island city with the three fish would be very good for production, once it grows and the PH's are improved. As it will take a while to get it into production, should consider getting it built fairly soon. Also gives more trade route, especially with GLHouse.

    Fur would nice for :)

    Seems to me like we have to engage the Barb Archer, we just need to try to do so in a way that provides us the best advantage, our Warrior on a wooded hill. :hammer:
     
  12. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    I'm not sure. It could be used for Cottages if we keep working the Corn in the long run, but I think that Farms and Mines would be better for the long-term, so that it can later hand off the Corn to another City.

    In the short to medium term, I'd only focus on Granary and G Riv Farms and forget about building Mines, so that we can grow and whip Settlers in a Size 4 -> Size 2 whipping cycle, then repeat.

    Once Unhappiness levels are high, we can temporarily gift the City to an AI, particularly if we've already got another City to make use of the Corn Resource by that point in time.

    I'd still like for us to plan on executing the tactic of gifting a City to an AIs to "mess with it," such as the AI sending City Defence Archers to defend such a City, leaving that AI's core Cities more vulnerable to attack. Also, doing so gives us the option of relocating an AI's capital City, should we find that the price for some of the later hints is too high in terms of the Gold cost... gifting 5 Workers for info on 3 tasks and recapturing the Workers immediately with a Chariot (or a turn later with a couple of 1-movement units surrounding the City) would be one way to avoid having to pay for the most expensive of the Gold costs for Willem's tasks.


    It's an option.
    1W loses:
    1 P Riv For
    1 Plains
    1 shared G Riv
    2 1-Food Coasts
    1 Grassland (City Centre)
    A few Hammers from the Forest Chop for the location of the northern Fish City

    1W gains:
    3 Peaks
    1 GH For
    1 Coast
    1 G Riv

    It's the same number of Forests, either way.

    I'm not sure that it's a beneficial move, and we'd also need to build a Road to the City just to get a Trade Route.

    Meanwhile, settling on the River gives us +1 Gems Resource being connected without needing to Road that Gems Resource, since the River goes out to the sea and loops all the way around Sheep Peninsula to give us an immediate Trade Network connection and also immediately connects-up the G Riv Gems Mine that we didn't have time to Road since we went for an early Library in Gems City instead.


    As I said, many of our short-to-medium term Hammers will probably come from whipping, rather than working GH Mines. Whip till the people complain, then whip more, then whip down to Size 1 and gift the City away. After recapturing the City, the Whipping Unhappiness will have disappeared (actually, it disappears as soon as the AI takes possession of the City).

    The AI would even start building a Road toward our Civ on our behalf, depending upon how long the AI kept that City. :goodjob:


    Yep. That's why I think that Corn City as City #4 makes sense... it works the Gems Mine while we Chop out a Granary, then it works the Gems Mine and Corn non-stop, 2-pop-whipping from Size 4 down to Size 2 with the help of Chops to turn Settlers into 2-pop-whipping actions. That way, we can get a lot of Settlers out of the City (1 Chop per Settler), especially with adding +2 G Riv Farms.

    Settling either island as City 4 leaves us without an easy way to get a ton of Settlers in a short period of time and also makes spawn-busting of the mainland more troublesome.


    Worst case, we'll lose 2 or 3 Warriors taking him down, which would put some strains on our spawn-busting plus Military Police situation.

    For now, we can move Warrior 4 to join Warrior 1 on the GH Riv For Gems, see what happens, and then react accordingly.

    While I would love to get Warrior 4 up to where our Scout is located, I don't think that it's prudent to leave Warrior 1 by himself, as allowing the Archer time to fully heal and promote after defeating a Warrior (say that the Archer fought Warrior 1 when Warrior 1 was alone) would be pretty bad, so having a second Warrior near to the first one to engage in combat would hopefully mean the Archer's downfall, even after a promotion.


    What's left to do in terms of testing?
    - Figure out the Science Rates... probably focusing on more 0% Science up front; even if we miss out on 1 bonus Flask, we can earn more Flasks from having a Library in Cap for later turns of a higher Science Rate than 0%
    - Try Gems City with building a Granary and no Worker 4
    - Worker micro after hooking up the Gems Mine... I'd like to get the GH that is shared by Cities 2 and 3 Mined, so that when we fire the Scientists and build a Galley for a turn at Size 4, we can earn 2 extra Hammers, which will help with Gems City's Granary
    Also, I'd like one Worker to Pre-Chop one of Cap's Forests, while another Worker Pre-Chops the other two. The Worker who Pre-Chops one Forest can probably be ready to Pasture the G Cow. The other Worker can be ready to Chop a Forest into City 3's Granary post-Galley-whipping-operation
    - Figuring out if there's a better way to do the micro for Settler 4... I think that what we've got is pretty solid, though, as when we finish Settler 4 at Size 4 and grow to Size 5, taking 2 turns to grow while working 2 GH Mines and building the Lighthouse seems like a good play. The only real thing that we could tweak is to work the Corn instead of the Crab for 1 turn and not have Gems City steal the Corn for that turn, then work a G Riv Farm instead of a GH Mine when building the Lighthouse to grow to Size 5 in 1 turn instead of in 2 turns... I'm not sure that there's much point in doing so, as we are probably just better working the Hammer-based squares for more raw Hammers going into The Great Lighthouse. But, I'd be open to someone showing how an alternative option works out better
     
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    I played out the test game for the next 20 turns. Wow, that was exhausting work. There's still a bit of tweaking left to do where we won't work the Crab to regrow to Size 5, due to falling short by 1 Hammer right at the end of play.

    Other than that, things are looking pretty solid.

    Our Granaries are coming in at ideal times for Cities 2 and 3 (assuming that enough of our Warriors survive such that we won't have to hastily replace them) and we'll even get a Granary for City 4 before it reaches Size 2. Again, that's subject to no Barbs messing with us, otherwise Chops are subject to go into Warriors before Granaries if it means keeping our Cities out of Barbs' hands.


    PPP (minor tweaks can be made later to the last few turns, but most of the first turns have worked out nicely, subject to what happens with the Barbs)
    T45, 2200 BC

    Open Borders with Willem

    Stay at 0% Science on Math

    C1: Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems, Wheat, G Riv Farm

    War4: Move 1N GH Riv For Gems


    T46, 2160 BC
    C1: Granary completed -> Library

    Remain at 0% Science on Math, since we won't lose out via fractional Flasks
    100% Science on Math (34 Flasks = a good amount of bonus Flasks)

    C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    C2: Grab the G Riv Farm
    C2: You could put the Building queue as Library -> Barracks -> Granary to prevent a turn of decay on the Barracks' Hammers
    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 G Riv Farms

    W1: Road GH (2W of City 2)
    W2: Road GH (1SW of City 2)
    W3: Move 1NW G (2E of the G Cow), pRoad, and STOP

    WB3: Move 1N Crab and Net
    Settler 3: Move 1W G (1E of the G Cow) and settle at Cow-1E
    C3: Work the Crab (growth in 6 turns)
    C3: Build a Granary

    War3: Probably Move 1N G (1S of the GH Riv For Gems)
    War4: Probably hang out with Warrior 1 for now, but react according to what the Barb Archer does


    T47, 2120 BC

    Remain at 0% Science... accept an additional relative 0.13 fractional Flask loss
    50% Science on Math (only lose 0.37 fractional Flasks instead of 0.50 fractional Flasks and a slightly better amount of bonus Flasks; no fractional Gold)

    C2: 2 G Riv Farms -> 2 Scientist
    C2: Library -> Granary

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab

    W1: Complete the Road on the GH (2W of City 2)
    W2: Complete the Road on the GH (1SW of City 2)
    W3: Move 2N to the GH Riv For Gems

    War3: Be prepared to move either into City 3 or to support Warriors 1 and 4

    Some Warrior: Think about trying to get one to Cap by T52


    T48, 2080 BC

    Remain at 0% Science on Math, to collect more Gold
    Science 100% (0.25 less fractional Flask loss and a good amount of bonus Flasks at 44 + 1 base Flasks)

    C1: Grew to Size 4: Switch to working the GRiv Farm (otherwise the Library will become a 1-pop-whipping action)

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, G Riv Farm
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab

    W1: pMine the GH that is 2W of City 2 and STOP
    W2: Move 1NW to the GH and pMine the GH that is 2W of City 2 and STOP
    W3: Road the GH Riv For Gems

    Some Warrior: Think about trying to get one to Cap by T52


    T49, 2040 BC

    Science 100% (0.25 less fractional Flask loss and a good amount of bonus Flasks at 44 + 1 base Flasks)

    C1: 2-pop-whip the Library
    C1: Wheat -> Crab
    C2: 1 Scientist -> Wheat
    (C2: Continue to build the Granary)

    C1: Deer and Crab
    C2: 2 Gems, 1 Sci, Wheat
    C3: Crab

    W3: Road the GH Riv For Gems
    W1: Move to GH Riv that is 2NW of City 2
    W2: Move to the GH Riv For Gems, pChop, and STOP
    Although, note that 7 units outside of our Cultural Borders = 1 Unit Supply, while 8 = 2 Unit Supply

    Some Warrior: Is one headed to Cap yet?


    T50, 2000 BC

    Science Rate at 100% for certain with Cap's Library having been completed

    C1: Size 3: Work the Wheat
    C1: Library -> Settler
    C2: Wheat (auto-switched to G Riv Farm) -> Sci

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists (6 turns to a Great Scientist)
    C3: Crab

    W1: Road the GH Riv For at 2NW of City 2
    W3: pChop the GH Riv For Gems and STOP
    W2: pMine the GH that is 2W of City 2 and STOP

    Some Warrior: Is one headed to Cap yet?


    T51, 1960 BC

    C1: Barracks (growth to Size 4 in 1 turn)

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab

    W1: Complete the Road on the GH Riv For that is 2NW of City 2
    W2: Move to the GH Riv For Gems, pMine it, and STOP
    W3: pMine the GH Riv For Gems and STOP


    T52, 1920 BC

    65 Gold remaining at -9 Gold per Turn, with Math coming in on time, 4 turns from now

    Great Scientist will arrive in 4 turns

    C1: Size 4, work the GH Riv Mine (you did get a Military Police unit there, right? :p)
    C1: Switch back to the Settler (complete in 4 turns)
    C3: Size 2, work the GH Riv Mine Gems

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Crab, Gems

    W1: Move to the GH Riv For Gems and Chop the Forest into City 3's Granary
    W2 and W3: Complete Mine on the GH Riv For Gems


    T53, 1880 BC

    C3: Crab -> GH Mine

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Gems, GH Mine (Hello, Granary before reaching Size 3)

    W1: Move to the G For that is NW + W of Cap
    W2: Move to the G that is 1E of City 3 and complete the Road
    W3: Move to the GH that is 2W of City 2 and complete the Mine


    T54, 1840 BC

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Gems, GH Mine

    W1: pChop the G For that is NW + W of Cap and STOP!!!
    W2: Move to the G For that is 2W of Cap
    W3: Move to the GH Riv For that is NW + NW of City 2 and pChop and STOP


    T55, 1800 BC

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine
    C2: 2 Gems, 2 Scientists
    C3: Gems, GH Mine

    W1: pChop the G For that is NW + W of Cap and STOP!!!
    W2: pChop the G For that is 2W of Cap and STOP!!!
    W3: Move NE to the G Riv that is 2SE of the G Corn and Road


    T56, 1760 BC

    Math is in with 31 Gold in the coffers (could be more or less in the real game, depending upon losses of Warriors or spawn-busting positions)

    Research: Either Masonry or Currency

    Great Scientist: Lightbulb Alphabet

    Get Sailing in trade

    Absolute worst case, self-tech Sailing in 2 turns' time

    In the test game, Masonry would be available in trade from Willem, but he is building The Great Wall, so he won't trade it, heh

    Meanwhile, Isabella wouldn't trade Masonry, so while she is also building The Great Wall, she just says that she won't trade the tech due to monopoly reasons

    C1: Barracks -> Lighthouse (3 overflow H + 6 base H = 9 H)
    C1: Wheat -> G Riv Farm
    C2: Galley then Barracks then Granary in the build queue
    C2: Sci -> Wheat
    C2: Other Sci -> GH Mine
    C3: GH Mine -> Gems (automatically happens)

    C1: Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm, GH Riv Mine (growth in 2 turns barely)
    C2: 2 Gems, Wheat, GH Mine
    C3: Crab, Gems

    W1: Move to the G that is 1E of City 3 and pFarm and STOP
    W2: pChop the G For that is 2W of Cap and STOP!!!
    W3: Finish the G Riv Road that is 2SE of the G Corn

    Settler 4: Moves northward, ending up 1E of City 3


    T57, 1720 BC

    We are assuming that we will get Animal Husbandry in trade this turn or the turn prior, otherwise we won't send a Worker toward City 3's Cow

    C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
    C1: Crab -> GH Mine
    C2: 2-pop-whip the Galley
    C2: Should be working 2 Gems Mines
    C3: Crab -> GH Mine

    C1: Deer, Wheat GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H, can still grow to Size 5 this turn)
    C2: 2 Gems at Size 2
    C3: Gems, GH Mine

    W1: Move 2W to the G Cow and start to Pasture
    W2: Move 1S G For (SW + W of Cap)
    W3: Move 1SW GH Riv For (2NW of City 2), pChop, and STOP

    Settler 4: Move northward (can settle Corn City next turn)


    T58, 1680 BC

    Masonry self-teched (or Sailing in the absolute worst case)

    C1: Size 5, Work the Crab
    C2: Galley -> Granary (not the Barracks; oohhh, lookie, the Granary can be completed this turn, just as we have a half-full foodbox!)
    C3: GH Mine -> Crab (2 turns to complete the Granary, at the perfect time to get a full Granary when growing to Size 3)

    Settle City 4 (SE + E of the G Corn?--great immediate fog-busting of the Sheep Peninsula)

    C4: Steal the G Riv Gems Mine (happens automatically)
    C4: Build a Granary (if need be, Worker 3 can Chop into an emergency Warrior this turn, instead, which would appear by the end of the turn)
    C2: G Riv Gems Mine -> G Riv Farm

    C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, G Riv Farm
    C3: Crab, Gems
    C4: Gems

    Galley 1, with Worker 3 aboard, moves SE + SE (2E of the Wheat)

    W1: Continue Pasturing the G Cow
    W2: Chop the G For that is SW + W of Cap
    W3: Move into City 2 then load into the Galley


    T59, 1640 BC

    C1: 2-pop-whip the Lighthouse!!!
    C1: Wheat -> GH Riv Mine
    C1: Crab -> GH Mine
    C2: What should we build next? The Barracks? Another unit? Work Boat (can change later if we need more Warriors)
    C2: G Riv Farm -> Wheat

    C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 2 turns with a full Granary)
    C3: Crab, Gems (Granary in 1 turn, arriving at the perfect time)
    C4: Gems

    Galley 1: Move SE + SE (or SE + S) and unload Warrior 3 on the G For that is 1E of the Fur

    W1: Continue Pasturing the G Cow
    W2: Continue Chopping the G For that is SW + W of Cap

    Some Warrior: Start thinking about sending a Military Police unit toward City 2... or, we can build one there by using a GH Mine instead of a G Riv Farm and delaying growth slightly


    T60, 1600 BC

    C1: Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse
    C1: Crab -> Fur
    C3: Granary -> What should we build next? Lighthouse for the Crab + Lake, probably. Library for the Gems Mine?
    C3: Crab -> Pastured Cow

    C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine, Fur (total of +9 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 1 turn with a full Granary)
    C3: Cow, Gems (growth in 4 turns)
    C4: Gems

    W1: Complete the Cow Pasture
    W2: Chop the G For that is SW + W of Cap
    W3: Chop the G For that is 1E of the Fur


    T61, 1560 BC

    Science Rate 100% since we hired 1 Scientist

    C1: Size 4 add the Crab (growth in 3 turns when Whipping Unhappiness wears off, at which point we can earn +11 H per turn; for now, +9 H per turn)
    C2: Size 3, hire 1 Sci (this approach gets us our Great Scientist #2 1 turn faster)

    C1: Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat, G Riv Farm (growth in 2 turns)
    C3: Cow, Gems
    C4: Gems

    W1: Move 2E G (1E of City 3), pFarm, and STOP
    W2: Move 1N to the G For that is 2W of Cap
    W3: Chop the G For that is 1E of the Fur


    T62, 1520 BC

    C1: Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat, 1 Sci (growth in 2 turns)
    C3: Cow, Gems
    C4: Gems

    W1: Move to the GH Riv For that is SW of Corn City (SE + S of the G Corn)
    W2: Complete the Chop that is 2W of Cap
    W3: Complete the Chop of the G For that is 1E of the Fur


    T63, 1480 BC

    C1: Crab -> Fur (can still grow to Size 5 on time)
    C2: Hire 2 Scientists (could be delayed by 1 turn if we lose Warriors and have to build a Military Police unit here by working a GH Mine)
    C4: Cultural Borders expand

    C1: Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine, Fur (total of +9 H; still will grow this turn but have +1 H than we had previously as of the end of this turn :dance:)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat, 1 Sci
    C3: Cow, Gems
    C4: Gems

    W1: Chop the GH Riv For that is 1SW of Corn City (SE + S of the G Corn)
    W2: Move 1N G For (NW + W of Cap)
    W3: Move 1W to the Fur


    T64, 1440 BC

    Need a Military Police unit for Gems City

    C1: At Size 5, G Riv Farm -> G For
    C1: Crab -> Fur

    C2: At Size 4, G Riv Farm -> Sci
    C3: At Size 3, work the Crab

    C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine, Fur, G For (total of +11 H)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat, 2 Sci
    C3: Cow, Crab, Gems
    C4: Gems

    W1: Chop the GH Riv For that is 1SW of Corn City (SE + S of the G Corn)
    W2: Chop the G For that is NW + W of Cap
    W3: Camp the Fur


    T65, 1400 BC

    C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine, Fur, G For (total of +11 H... bringing us to exactly 200 / 200 H in TGLH at the end of this turn)
    C2: 1 Gems, Wheat, 2 Sci (Great Scientist #2 in 14 turns with a pure gene pool)
    C3: Cow, Crab, Gems (maybe we should have built a Warrior before a Lighthouse, as this City will soon need a Military Police unit... and then perhaps grown faster without the benefit of the Granary)
    C4: Gems (one Chop into the Granary this turn, the second Chop into the Granary next turn)


    Pretty picture
    Spoiler :



    ANY COMMENTS on what we should be checking for each turn?
    F4 TECHS screen after learning Alphabet
    F4 RESOURCES after getting a Trade Network with an AI
    F4 GLANCE after learning Alphabet to see if a Worst Enemy relationship disappears temporarily and can thus be exploited with trading

    Anything else? I'm pretty bad at reading the Demographics and the Graphs and not many people in this team seem to comment on those things, so I imagine that the sentiment is shared. So, unless someone explicitly asks for this info, I won't give it much more than a cursory glance from time to time. The same goes for the F8 DEMOGRAPHICS... maybe I'll look, but it won't mean much to me, unless someone asks me to look for something specific.

    If we reveal any Cities, perhaps the Ctrl + e ESPIONAGE screen, to guess if an AI is building a Wonder

    F4 RELATIONS after we gift/sell Writing around, to see when AIs Open Borders with each other

    Do we care about keeping an eye on relative City rankings on the F9 TOP 5 CITIES screen? It seems like more work than it's worth, but I can look for something in particular if someone requests it, otherwise I might just glance there when I think of it.


    PRETTIER PICTURE
    Spoiler :
     
  14. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2001
    Messages:
    5,285
    Location:
    Tuckasegee, NC
    A great deal of good effort, Dhoom. Are you continuing (which is fine with me) or turning it over, and exactly what needs to be agreed upon before a few turn are played?
     
  15. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2006
    Messages:
    13,408
    Playing the Next Turnset
    I can play or I can hand off. I'm happy either way, but my understanding was that Folket, who is next in the roster, is still too busy to pick up a turnset, thus the plan is for me to play at least part of the proposed turnset quite soon.

    If someone who is in a different spot in the roster loves to play when there's a detailed plan laid out for them, now's a good time to speak up and claim that you have time to practice the micro and want to play it out. Otherwise, I will continue to assume the role of the Active Player.


    Corn City
    The micro is dependent upon us settling Corn City inland (non-Coastal), to share Gems City's Gems Resource. If anyone disagrees with doing so, please speak up soon, as once we start playing the turnset listed in the latest PPP, it'll be pretty hard to adjust things without making sacrifices (such as a considerably later Academy).

    Feel free to also speak up saying that you are fine with settling the City inland; SOME feedback is better than no feedback, even if it's a simple comment along the lines of "I don't see a problem with that approch."


    Possible adjustments to the plan
    If we lose too many Warriors, we can adjust our plans by getting City 3's Granary or City 4's Granary later than desired and getting additional Warriors in place of earlier Granaries.

    There's still a bit of tweaking to be done in later turns... perhaps Gems City doesn't steal the Wheat for one turn, allowing Cap to work Wheat + GH Mine instead of Crab + G Riv Farm, which allows us to still grow Cap to Size 5 (for a sooner post-TGLH Settler 5) and probably with no delay in our Great Scientist #2 (needs to be tested). Or, alternatively, don't have Cap steal the Wheat and just work the Crab in Cap less (which starts to hurt more, as it will be a 5 Food + 2 Commerce Crab by that point in time).

    I'm pretty happy with the Science Rates, so the first 10 turns or so are pretty much set, again, unless someone speaks up soon about insisting on settling Corn City on the Coast, and, of course, being subject to change depending upon what the Barbs do.


    There's more to a turnset than the PPP
    Also, not everything can be planned, particularly in our AI interactions and our dealings with the Barbs. We also need to be attentive to changes in the real game (Wonders being being built, AI-AI relationships including Worst Enemies, techs being learned by AIs, etc). So, it's nice to have a good plan in place so that more of one's brainpower can be focused on looking for these potential issues and dealing with them as they crop up, rather than trying to remember if we wanted to Farm or Chop with a given Worker at a given time.


    Feedback
    Again, I'd love to hear what people think in terms of which screens to check from turn-to-turn. If we feel the need to track a value on F8 DEMOGRAPHICS, for example, let me know which one to track and I can track it. Otherwise, I'll go with my suggestions at the bottom of the PPP, which has us ignoring a lot of the numerical details available to us that, in my opinion, probably won't matter too much in the bigger picture. But, I'll be more than happy to track extra info if someone requests it.
     
  16. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Think you are ready to go. :goodjob:

    Certainly we need to check the tech screen every turn once we get Alphabet for tech deals. Need to be checking for trade deals as well. I'm terrible at reading the demographics screen, so I always have trouble. Some on the team are very good at it, so we should consider taking a screen shot at regular interval for the crystal ball readers. :)

    Agree we need to maintain our flexibility. You should stop if you meet circumstances that may require additional input, certainly once Alphabet is learned.
     
  17. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Green here -- just pause if something unanticipated happens.
     
  18. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    I plan to play soon, after doing a practice runthrough of the first several turns.

    After some intense head-scratching and concerted attempts at working on the micro, I managed to pull an extra Hammer out of the ether and some extra GPP from out of a hat, thereby getting The Great Lighthouse one turn sooner and Great Scientist #2 one turn sooner than the previous attempt. The PPP has been updated accordingly.

    For sure, we'll stop if something crazy or deserving-of-team-input happens.

    One item that hasn't been worked into the micro that will quite probably happen is Chopping into a Warrior in City 3 instead of into the Granary, either to get +1 spawn-buster or to replace a fallen Warrior. In that case, we'd be unable to get perfect timing on the Granary at Size 2, so we'd just grow to Size 3 faster (keep working the Crab instead of switching to working the GH Mine at Size 2) and work 3 improved squares for longer as the tradeoff.


    Turnset Report

    T45, 2200 BC

    Foreign Advisor: Willem now willingly reveals that he has Archers in his Armies. I just can't win. Regardless, I managed to negotiate a mutual Open Borders agreement with him.

    Financial Advisor: Let's save up some Gold to line my pockets, err, I mean, to line the royal coffers!

    Science Advisor: Fine, fine. My gang is out on an excursion with the lumberjacks to see what problems they face. Once we've collected enough evidence, we can see about developing more efficient chopping techniques!

    Warrior 4: For glory! For Gondar! Err, I mean, for Greece! Warrior 1, here I come!

    Military Advisor: Turn off Quick Moves, please!

    Domestic Advisor: All is well in our Cities, with several key Buildings about to come online.

    X King: Do you mean that we've invented the Intarnet?

    Science Advisor: I know not of which you speak. However, here is a copy of our latest invension: a book.

    X King: What am I supposed to do with it?

    Science Advisor: Well, for now, you can hold it in your hands and tap at it with your thumbs. With enough pressing, perhaps you'll conjure up this Intarnet of yours. :p

    X King: Religious Leader, please pray for a miracle!

    Religious Leader: (Deep in prayer)


    T46, 2160 BC

    Warrior1: A miracle! Our luring has worked and the Barb Archer has moved 1SE to the G Riv that is 1W of my position!

    Warrior 4: Save! Quickly! Save, in the event of a power outage or any other catastrophic event!

    Royal Scribe: I have created an appropriate archive of our Civilization's chronicles, ready to be "read" at any time.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth asks us to Open Borders with her. I politely ask her if she would like to negotiate and then promptly and conveniently forget to give her a counter-offer. Polite as she is, she simply walks away, strutting her stuff and shouting claims of us never gettin' any, whatever that means.

    X King: I know that I sure aren't getting any, whatever that any means.

    Domestic Advisor: X-opolis has erected a Granary!

    X King: But, is it online?

    Domestic Advisor: Tell you what; I'll scribble the word 0NL1N3 on the side of this here silo. Happy now?

    X King: Very!

    Domestic Advisor: Shifting around out Farmers can get X-opolis growing in 2 turns' time. With the assistance of the Granary silos, our capital's people will soon be swimming in Food.

    Head of Intelligence: The T46 Espionage report:
    135 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    13 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    176 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    184 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    96 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Warrior 3: So, where should I move? Moving 1N G Riv won't work, with the Barb Archer being 1NW of there.

    Warrior 1: Move 1NE GH. If the Barb Archer unexpectedly charges City 3 by moving 1SW G, you can get there with Roads.

    Warrior 4: Or, if the Barb Archer unexpectedly charges City 3 by moving 1SE G Riv, the three of us can tag-team dog-pile him into the ground.

    Warrior 1: Meanwhile, should I manage to lose this fight and that Barb Archer gets 2 Promotions, Warrior 4 will need all of the help that he can get on the GH Riv For Gems square next turn!

    Spoiler :



    Turn 47, 2120 BC

    X King: So, did we win the fight?

    Military Advisor: What fight? :mischief: :hide:

    Religious Leader: Sire, you forgot to pray for luck in battle.

    X King: Gulp. Oops!

    Warrior 1: Well, the Barb Archer was no match for me! He knew that he couldn't handle my might and he ran away!

    Warrior 4: No, it was my amazing good looks that scared him off to run home to his mommy.

    Warrior 3: Well, I'm not quite sure where to go now, but at least the Barb Archer didn't target our nearby City.

    X King: Thank the Lord for small miracles!

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth still speaks of her mighty Archers.

    Head of Intelligence: The T47 Espionage report:
    139 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    14 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    180 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    187 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    97 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Science Advisor: 2 of my labcoat gang are put to work in Gems City, to see if they can generate an even greater colleague!

    Warrior 3: So, where should I go?

    Military Advisor: Join your colleages on the GH Riv For Gems square. We must protect our Worker force who will be operating in the area for the next few turns!

    Warrior 3: Roger that. For king and country!

    X King: Aww, yeah! :) Oh, and Religious Leader? Please pray for us!

    Religious Leader: (Doing her best)


    Turn 48, 2080 BC

    Warrior 1: Yeah, that's right, you run away to the north-west, Barb Archer!

    Warrior 3: Let's follow him.

    Warrior 1: I'd rather stay here in my fortifications.

    Warrior 4: Good call. You stay there and "hold the fort." Meanwhile, the two of us will head north-west ourselves to the next GH For. Someone will need to head back to X-opolis soon enough, so it might as well be you.

    Work Boat Captain: Willem has produced a Galley and has set it forth on the high seas!

    Scout: Great! I shall use the Galley as cover to sneak a bit further eastward.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: While I know not much of Victories, I will say that my sources have informed me that our value has climbed from 10.81% of the World Population to 11.54% of the World Population.

    Science Advisor: Greater math geeks than me will have to figure out what that means!

    Domestic Advisor: X-opolis has reached a City Size of 4 and already has 14 Food in it! What a wonderful building this Granary has turned out to be!

    Science Advisor: My labcoat fellows can only do so much without proper funding. Can we spare some Gold for research yet?

    Financial Advisor: Why not wait for a capital Building in which to house your research notes.

    Science Advisor: I'm not sure that I can hold out quite that long, but your words are wise, so we can delay increasing our Science rate for a bit longer.

    Work Boat Captain: It appears that Willem also has a Work Boat on the high seas!

    Warrior 3: But, what does that mean?

    Military Advisor: Let us hope that his Galley is not filled with Archers or a Settler Party!

    Work Boat Captain: His Galley seems to have come from the south-west, and since it must have been more freshly built, we will head in that direction first to see what we can reveal.

    Spoiler :


    Work Boat Captain: Willem's Cultural Borders have been spotted!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The T48 Espionage report:
    143 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    15 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    184 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    189 [+2] currently required to see Willem's Research
    98 [+1] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Work Boat Captain: My matey up in the crow's nest can see far-away distances and has just informed me that Willem's capital appears to be at Size 7!

    Spoiler :



    Turn 49, 2040 BC

    Warrior 3: The Barb Archer heads south, continuing to elude us!

    Warrior 1: Never fear! As long as he is staying away from the Gems Mine, we should be fine.

    Spoiler :


    Work Boat Captain: Elizabeth has been exploring the seas longer than we have, as she has already mapped a Trade Network to our empire!

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: No Resource trades yet, lest we anger Shaka. No Open Borders yet, for both the same reason and because we would just be speeding up her Research rate without speeding up ours... perhaps helpful, perhaps not. For now, let's err on the side of caution and keep our Borders Closed.

    Spoiler :


    X King: Hey, what's with Willem being Pleased toward Shaka?

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Sorry, I forgot to mention that earlier in the turnset, perhaps on T45 or T46, Willem became Pleased toward Shaka, likely due to relative rankings in the Scoreboard, with them probably both being in the bottom half of player Scores.

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The T49 Espionage report:
    147 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    16 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    188 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    192 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+2] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Science Advisor: I've had enough of waiting around. 100% on Science! Whip X-opolis' Library!

    Financial Advisor: Very well. I believe that I have saved up enough for you to have your way with our carefully-crafted piggy bank.

    Domestic Advisor: A lot is going on. Gems City fires a Scientist...

    Science Advisor: Nooo!

    Domestic Advisor: ... temporarily...

    Science Advisor: Oh, in that case, it's fine. =D

    Domestic Advisor: ... in order to Farm the Wheat, while the remaining X-opolis citizens keep making Deer pelts and getting pinched by Crab claws.

    Warrior 1: I can hang out for 1 more turn before I have to go protect X-opolis. Can you two hold the fort?

    Warrior 3: It depends upon what the Barb Archer does. If he charges us, since we haven't built up any Fortification bonus, we'll probably have to retreat to the GH Riv For Gems and hope that the Barb Archer doesn't follow us.

    Warrior 4: Yeah, otherwise we can probably stick it out on this GH For.

    Warrior 2: Maybe the Barb Archer will even come my way!

    Warrior 4: I hope so! Err, I mean, you can handle it, buddy! ;)

    Warrior 3: Wait! I have a better idea! Warrior 1, you stay in place and Warrior 4 you head back to X-opolis!

    Warrior 4: Won't you miss me?

    Warrior 3: Probably, but if we need to fall back to protecting the Gems square, we won't want to toss away Warrior 1's great fort.

    Warrior 1: Yeah, I build great forts.

    Military Advisor: Great call, Warrior 3. Warrior 4, head south-east, on the double!

    Foreign Advisor: Sometime recently, the Rival Best GNP climbed from 34 to 35, the Rival Best Mfg Goods climbed from 17 to 18, and the Rival Best Crop Yield fell from 32 to 30. The Rival Best Soldiers value also climbed from 63 000 to 68 000, the Rival Best Population climbed from 233 000 to 238 000, the Rival Best Approval Rate climbed from 64% to 67%, and the Rival Best Life Expectancy climbed from 80 to 83.

    X King: Wow, that Rival Best player is kicking butt!

    Foreign Advisor: Try not to get confused. Nothing says that one player who is the Rival Best in a given category is actually the Rival Best in another category, while it could be the same player, with the large number of opponents in our world, it's likely that many different players are slowly but surely advancing the progress of their respective empires.

    X King: Got it!


    Turn 50, 2000 BC

    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer has come westward toward me!

    Warrior 3: Now's my chance to scoot up toward the north-west!

    Scout: Willem's Galley and Elizabeth's Work Boat are helping with spawn-busting duties!

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth has traded her Corn to Willem for Clam.

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Don't worry, it wasn't worth risking Shaka's ire.

    Work Boat Captain: Also, we don't quite yet have a Trade Network set up with Willem, so we couldn't have blocked the trade from Willem's end.

    Head of Intelligence: The T50 Espionage report:
    151 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+1] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    192 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    195 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Domestic Advisor: Time for Settler 4 in X-opolis after having regrown to Size 3 and retaken the Wheat.

    Science Advisor: Back to the lab, labcoat #2! Only 6 more turns to create a greater version of you!

    Warrior 2: So, do I stick it out and fight or do I try to retreat?

    X King: As exhaustion sets in, it seems like a good time to pause and reflect.

    Here is your Session Turn Log from 2200 BC to 2000 BC:
    Spoiler :
    Turn 46, 2160 BC: Surfin' Turf has been founded.
    Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have constructed a Library in Gems. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

    Turn 48, 2080 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 4.
    Turn 48, 2080 BC: X-opolis can hurry Library for 2&#8692; with 30&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 16 turns.
    Turn 48, 2080 BC: Gems can hurry Granary for 2&#8692; with 20&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.

    Turn 49, 2040 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 49, 2040 BC: Elizabeth will trade Corn
    Turn 49, 2040 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

    Turn 50, 2000 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 50, 2000 BC: The borders of Surfin' Turf are about to expand.
    Turn 50, 2000 BC: Elizabeth won't trade Corn
     

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  19. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  20. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    Barb Archer
    We only have a 73% chance of defeating the Barb Archer. In my own games, that's a risk that I'm willing to take, as normal XOTM games are played (at least by me) with far less micro and attention to detail, so spending a couple of turns to build a replacement unit isn't a big deal.

    Here, though, we're tight on Hammers in terms of our Granary timings, so having to replace a fallen Warrior will delay at least one Granary and may cause additional Barb units to spawn in the un-spawn-busted area.


    So, I'm going to suggest that when the turnset resumes, we retreat our western Warrior 2 (rather than engaging the Barb Archer in combat) and we send Warriors 1 and 3 toward the north-west, so that we can camp out the GH Riv For up there. Meanwhile, the Scout can then head eastward to spawn-bust the north-east area that AI boats (and Shaka's Scout, if it is still alive) are temporarily helping us to spawn-bust.


    The Barb Archer itself helps to spawn-bust, which is a fact that keeps getting taken into account when positioning our units each turn.


    Our Cultural Borders are about to expand, so Warrior 1 camping out our Gems Resource seems a bit pointless, as Barbs have a low chance of approaching our Cultural Borders prior to the "Barb Rush" period. Far better would be to set him up to the north-west where we might actually engage some Barbs.


    Ideally, if we avoid engaging the Barb Archer for a long time, or at least until we have even better odds of winning, Shaka or Willem might even send units our way to kill or at least weaken the Barb Archer.
     

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