SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    It is a chance I am generally willing to take as well. Isn't it better than a Warrior in a city?

    Your rationale sounds fine, but I'd rather see him gone. :)
     
  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Fighting with a 100% Defensive bonus is probably better than what we'll get in a City, but we hopefully won't end up having to defend any of our Cities using Warriors.

    By the time that our Cities get rushed, we should be at a point in the game where we can field a defending Archer.

    I plan to continue play soon.

    One thing that we'll want to figure out is if it will be best to get City 3's Granary at the ideal time by slowing growth while working the GH Mine or if it will be better just to grow faster to work 3 squares but without earning 12 free Food. I'll try to play around with the options before proceeding with the next turnset.

    Okay, working it out:
    If we constantly work the Gems Mine, then we can grow to Size 3 on Turn 60, just as the Cow Pasture gets finished.

    If we complete the Granary first, we'll have a full Granary (12 free Food) at Size 3 on Turn 64.

    So, that's 4 extra turns of working the Crab for 4 turns * ( +2 F + 2 C ) = 8 F + 8 C versus 12 F

    Since we have a nice square to work once we hit Size 3, it becomes a lot closer.

    +4 F can probably mean growing 1 or 2 turns faster. So, say that it's 2 turns faster. If we, say, worked a Lake for 2 turns, earning +2 C per turn, then we'd simply see a tradeoff of 4 Food versus 4 Commerce.

    I'd prefer the Food at this stage, as Food = more Hammers and we'll have enough Commerce from Trade Routes, etc, so sticking to the PPP is the way to go.
     
  3. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Looking good, but is your save a test or the real game?.

    Some concerns:

    Why send two warriors to the NW? (Understand one for the GH and allowing the scout to scout East -- like to find out if units disembarked from the Dutch galley).

    Understand not wanting to lose warrior2 or the archer as spawn busters, but what is your contingency plan if the warrior heads south towards Corinth? In Vanilla, that would be typical barb behavior beginning in 2000 BC.

    Question whether it is optimal to complete chop of the gem hill now, when we'll have Math in 6 turns and the chop won't get the granary built. Suggest moving worker3 NW of Corinth next turn and putting one turn into roading (while worker2 completes his mine, then the following turn have worker2 finish the road, allowing worker3 to begin pasturing the cows, with worker2 helping next turn. Also, that road will allow both warriors 1&4 to get to Corinth to protect it if the barb archer heads south. That, in turn,would allow warrior2 to move west into the forest to fog bust, rather than retreating; or, if he decides to stand and fight and loses, protecting Corinth will be less difficult.
     
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    The test saved games are the only games that get uploaded to the thread. The real saved games get uploaded to the server. The various test saved games are conveniently linked from the first page of our thread, as are our turnset reports.



    One is for spawn-busting and the other is for defensive purposes.

    One Warrior goes to the GH Riv For, with the thinking that if the Barb Archer comes at us, it will first have to approach from the south and therefore will be adjacent to our Warrior from across of a River.

    Being adjacent to our Warrior would mean that a Barb Archer would roll 2 dice to see if it will attack us, so while it wouldn't guarantee an attack, there would be a very strong chance of an attack.


    The other Warrior goes to the G Riv square that is SW + 3W of the G Corn, to spawn-bust the area across of the water from a safe position. This Warrior would retreat from danger if the Barb Archer came toward the defensive Warrior and can provide backup in case the first Warrior dies.

    What makes our situation tough is when we're 1 against 1... making it 2 against 1 gives us better overall odds, as, if an Archer barely beats us, we can counter-attack or can defend a second time in a row, rather than allowing an Archer to promote AND fully heal before our next unit can engage it.


    Eventually, one of those 2 Warriors is going to need to return to act as a Military Police unit for Gems City (be in Gems City by T63). When it is time for that Warrior to return, we'll just have settled Corn City, at which point Corn City will provide a lot of fog-busting for us and will relieve the spawn-busting burden.


    It's not a date-based event. In reading the link about Barbs that neilmeister provided us, the magic Barb Rushing time is when: NumCities > 3*NumPlayersAlive

    Willem and Elizabeth each have less than 3 Cities. In fact, multiple AIs have large-sized Cities similar to Willem and therefore likely haven't been spending a lot of time spamming early Settlers. It could be a long time before that threshold gets reached.

    Even if it does get reached by the time that Corn City gets founded, we'll have a Warrior heading back and will have population points that can be whipped into Archers, assuming that we should be able to get Archery for Math from at least 2 different AIs.


    That Chop IS required for us to get the Granary built while the City is still at Size 2, at the perfect time, too.

    Further, we're relying on that Gems Mine to get us to Math sooner, which gets us to Alphabet sooner, which earns us extra trading value for techs that AIs may currently be researching.

    The 20 Hammers are enough for the Granary.

    We trade 10 Hammers in exchange for 4 turns of working the Gems Mine for 24 extra Commerce. That extra Commerce also earns us Math in 4 turns... without it, Math would take 5 turns, so it's more of a comparison of 10 Hammers vs ( 5 turns * 6 Commerce ) = 30 Commerce.

    If the Forest weren't covering a square that provides +6 Commerce per turn, sure, we could delay the Chop, but I think that when the numbers are laid out, you would agree that taking the Commerce is the better approach.


    We do already have a partial Road at Corinth-1E that gets completed by a Worker prior to Pasturing the G Cow.

    Any extra Worker turns invested now would have to take away from another action, which could mean:
    1. Delaying the GH Mine for Corinth, which would delay its Granary so that we earn less Food
    OR
    2. Delaying Chops into Corn City's Granary, which would delay its Granary so that we earn less Food
    OR
    3. Delaying the Road to Corn City such that our Settler won't have the immediate option of settling where leif suggested (right now, we've kept things open) and with us not having a movement point left for the Settler to retreat if our Scout dies and a Barb unit is up there at the wrong time

    Basically, we have no free Worker turns for a long time, such that spending them elsewhere would delay SOMETHING... the time of Corn City being settled, the time of completing a Granary which would lose us Food, the completion of The Great Lighthouse, etc.

    With a Road going at Corinth-1E, I'm not sure if we'll ever need a Road at Corinth-1NE, at least not until a point in time when we have too many Worker turns and nothing for them to do.


    Unless we're going to switch to self-teching Animal Husbandry now, we won't have the ability to Pasture the Cow until Turn 56 at the earliest, when Alphabet comes in, and it is Turn 50 right now.

    Trust the micro. As I mentioned earlier, I went with the assumption that if we had a choice between Sailing or Animal Husbandry for Writing, we would take Sailing and then might have to wait 1 turn to get Animal Husbandry for Math. So, Pasturing happens with a Worker starting to do it on T57:
    T57, 1720 BC
    W1: Move 2W to the G Cow and start to Pasture

    Completing the Pasture any earlier would mean less help with Chops going into The Great Lighthouse, and 1 Worker alone can't get all of the mainland Chops done in time without that help.

    At that point in time, we're still at Size 2 anyway and the extra Hammers from the Cow Pasture won't help on the Granary, as the Granary will have been completed by T59, with Animal Husbandry coming in on T56 at the earliest, and it taking 4 turns to complete a Pasture, and us absolutely not having the ability to get 2 Workers there to Pasture it without one of:
    1. Severely delaying the timing of Great Scientist #2 (for our Academy)
    OR
    2. Delaying The Great Lighthouse, as the other 2 of our total of 3 Workers are busy Chopping into The Great Lighthouse at that time

    In fact, Pasturing sooner only manages to allow us to earn 2 Hammers instead of 2 Commerce per turn on any turn sooner than Turn 64, at which point we'll hit Size 3 and can work both the Crab ( 4 F + 2 C ) and the Cow ( 4 F + 2 H ).


    Again, refer to the Barb thread. Given the current City count that we see, we would need there to be:
    i. 4 other AIs with 4 Cities
    AND
    ii. 2 other AIs with 3 Cities
    AND
    iii. There to be sufficient Barbs in the area to satisfy the AREAAI_OFFENSIVE trigger.

    The better spawn-busting that we do, the longer that it would take to meet that OFFENSIVE trigger, and I find it very hard to believe that so many AIs out there have met those numbers of City counts.

    The Barb Archer has shown no indication of participating in a Barb Rush, as the Barb Archer has continued to wander aimlessly from turn-to-turn, as the Turnset Reports have indicated with turn-by-turn screenshots. Please let me know if you have any difficulty in seeing the screenshots, but even if you do, I try to describe most of what's important in the screenshots in the Turnset Reports' texts.


    The point to remember here is that the Barb Archer acts as a spawn-buster, too.

    We're stuck with one Barb Archer, but the goal is to prevent too many others from spawning, so as to delay the time when the AREAAI_OFFENSIVE condition can be triggered.

    So, think not of our Warrior having to be in the perfect spot for spawn-busting, but for the Warrior and the Barb Archer to, combined, have a bigger spawn-busting area.


    Corinth isn't in danger... yet. Once more Barbs appear and more Cities get settled world-wide, it could be in danger. So, one of the goals is to delay the spawning of new Barb units, at least until a time when we can whip defensive Archers of our own (potentially as early as T57).


    What scares me more is that only have 1 unit out of Warrior 2 and the Barb Archer alive leaves more "holes" in the total spawn-busting area (yes, I have been abusing the Barb Archer to help with spawn-busting for many turns now), allowing a second Barb Archer to spawn.

    In other words, I don't want EITHER of Warrior 2 or the Barb Archer to die just yet, at least not given our current positioning of units and current lack of fog-busting help from a yet-to-be-settled Corn City.


    Also, the other scary part is not having a second unit near to Warrior 2, so that an Archer who wins could promote and heal before a second unit of ours could arrive to engage the Barb Archer, making it even more of a pain than it is now.


    So, am I blocked from playing or have I sufficiently answered your concerns to be able to play on? If I can't play now, it could be a couple of days before I'll have a playing window again, and it would be really nice to push on to getting Alphabet.
     
  5. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    "Unless we're going to switch to self-teching Animal Husbandry now" Oops . . . never mind. Sorry to cause you to write a lengthy explanation.

    Green here.
     
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    No worries. I'd rather that we all be on the same page as each other, even if takes me authoring a novel to get us there. ;)


    Turnset Report
    Turn 50, 2000 BC

    Warrior 2: Allow me to head SE so that I will be closer to the safety of our Cultural Borders, but from a location where I can keep an eye on what our Barb Archer friend does next.

    Warriors 1 and 3: Meanwhile, we'll work our way into defensive and spawn-busting positions in the north-west.

    Scout: I'll sit tight for the moment while Willem's Galley spawn-busts the east for me.

    Work Boat Captain: Willem is building a Road on a GH For square. Also, he has 2 Pastures... a Pig Pasture and a Horse Pasture.

    Foreign Advisor: It's weird that he hasn't bragged about Chariots yet, as he knows The Wheel and has a Horse Resource connected.

    X King: What are these Horses of which you speak?

    Foreign Advisor: My spies amongst the enemy say that they are useful animals who can aid with rapid transportation and can even be used for war-like purposes.

    X King: Sounds intriguing. How do I get me some of those?

    Science Advisor: All will become known soon after our precious lab coats develop their greater fellow.

    Domestic Advisor: All looks to be on track in our Cities.

    X King: Green light. Proceed!

    Science Advisor: What's a green light?

    X King: I don't know, it was something that I heard down at the local pub, err, I mean, while in a council session. I think that it had something to do with chopping green trees under the sunlight being more efficient, but the lumberjack, err, I mean the council member wasn't all that lucid at the time...


    Turn 51, 1960 BC

    Foreign Advisor: Our Civ is declared the Wealthiest in the world by none other than Lord McCauley "Culkin" himself! Willem is 5th and Shaka is 8th. Elizabeth didn't even make the list of Top 8.

    Science Advisor: Well, our opponents are not known for their ability to leverage the concept of Binary Science, so it's no wonder that we're on top.

    Financial Advisor: Literally. I'm sitting on the top of the pile of Gold! It is so much fun! But, it does seem like the pile is being chipped away turn by turn.

    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer ran further westward! Meanwhile, thanks to the expansion of Surfin' Turf's (City 3's) Cultural Borders, a second Barb Archer was spotted far to the south.

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 4: I continue to work my way back to the important task of defending X-opolis!

    Warrior 3: Yes, the ladies can't get enough of topless guys who barely wear more than a loincloth.

    Military Advisor: Are you complaining about your standard-issue uniform?

    Warrior 3: On the contrary, I love that the ladies love me. :)

    X King: Maybe Willem isn't the right one to ask for advice, after all...

    Domestic Advisor: X-opolis shall regrow to Size 4 in the span of 1 turn!

    Science Advisor: Meanwhile, my labcoat gang continues the quest to create a greater fellow of theirs!

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka's Scout has reappeared from the north-east! As long as our Borders remain Closed, he may remain in the area to help with spawn-busting.

    Scout: Elizabeth's Work Boat has moved into a useful spawn-busting position this turn, too!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The T51 Espionage report:
    155 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+0] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    196 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    198 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research

    Head of Intelligence: Shaka has stopped spending Espionage Points on us! Could that fact indicate that he has met a new AI?

    Foreign Advisor: Well, Attitudes between the players whom we have met have remained unchanged, so it's certainly a possibility.

    Work Boat Captain: We get a view of Amsterdam!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: Sabotage Production / Support City Revolt * 650 / 6 is the magic formula.

    Science Advisor: Magic for what?

    Head of Intelligence: For divining what Willem may be building. For example, filling in the values of:
    Sabotage Production = 304
    Support City Revolt = 845
    Gives us this formula: 304 / 845 * 650 / 6 = 38.97

    Science Advisor: Meaning, what exactly?

    Head of Intelligence: Meaning that Willem has 39 Hammers invested into a build item.

    Science Advisor: Really? You can tell all of that just from the cost of your Spies?

    Head of Intelligence: Yup. Pretty sweet trick, huh?

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Last turn, one of the top 5 Cities of the world was at Size 5, but it has been replaced by one at Size 6 (or, more likely, has grown to Size 6 itself).

    Minister of Trade: Although we can see Willem's capital, we cannot yet establish a Trade Network with him, as we do not know Sailing and he clearly has yet to map out a path to our Civ, particularly how his Galley appears to be exploring more than beelining a specific target as it might if it were loaded with units.


    Turn 52, 1920 BC

    Scout: And, just like that, everyone disappeared! Literally. Shaka's Scout went back NE, Liz' Work Boat went north, Willem's Galley went north, and the Barb Archer disappeared somewhere to the west.

    Warrior 3: Don't worry, we'll find them soon enough.

    Scout: Sooner than even I thought!

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 4: (Almost out of breath) Finally, I have crossed from one end of our empire to the other, arriving just in time to quell the Unhappinses that was brewing in X-opolis.

    Domestic Advisor: And, not a moment too soon! Now, the miners are content to return to work, knowing that we have the military around to help rescue them in the event of mine cave-ins.

    Domestic Advisor: With proper co-ordinate amongst our Workers, Surfin' Turf will be able to work our 3rd Gems Mine.

    Workers: We did it!

    X King: Excellent news!

    Work Boat Captain: Amsterdam is a prize of a City, with 4 Food Resources, a Horse, and 4 GH squares!

    Spoiler :


    X King: Once we know his secrets, is there anything preventing us from eliminating him?

    Foreign Advisor: Well, he might make for a good AI to keep alive so as to win by a EP-based Cultural Victory. His Creative Trait would help to build some of the seed Culture needed in each of the 3 Legendary-to-be Cities.

    X King: Okay, so we can gift him a City and then take his capital once we know his secrets, right?

    Military Advisor: I see nothing preventing us from doing exactly that!

    Foreign Advisor: Now would be a good time to Open Borders with our neighbours. Does anyone object?

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Well, do we want Shaka's Scout to stay in the north-east or not?

    Work Boat Captain: Do we want Elizabeth's Work Boat to stay in the north-east, spawn-busting, or not?

    Foreign Advisor: Hmmm, very valid points.

    X King: Let's hold off on the Open Borders until we see an immediate benefit (post-Sailing, perhaps, for Foreign Trade Routes) or until we've settled Corn City and therefore have less use for AI spawn-busting in the north-east.

    Head of Intelligence: The T52 Espionage report:
    159 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+0] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    200 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    201 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research
    Willem just completed a build item! I see a Barracks there, which is likely the build item that was just completed.

    Spoiler :



    Turn 53, 1880 BC

    Head of Intelligence: The T53 Espionage report:
    163 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+0] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    204 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    204 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research
    Willem has 13 Hammers into a build item.
    Willem is 7 turns away from learning Writing.

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has founded his 4th City!

    Warrior 3: The Barb Archer moved south, rather than toward our Cultural Borders or Willem's, so the addition of 1 City hasn't triggered a Barb Rush.

    Spoiler :


    Domestic Advisor: To the Mines, ye crab-lovers of Surfin' Turf!

    Work Boat Captain: Elizabeth appears to be in Willem's backyard! I recommend that we Open Borders with Elizabeth next turn, so that I may continue to explore her area. If that's not a Coastal City, we'll want a path mapped to one of her Coastal Cities by the time that we learn Sailing.

    Spoiler :



    Turn 54, 1840 BC

    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer is no longer visible and is hiding somewhere in the fog.

    Spoiler :


    Religious Leader: Judaism has been founded!

    Domestic Advisor: All is quiet while we are building Settler 4.

    Science Advisor: Our Research on Math and our labcoat members' creation of a greater personage are both on track for 2 turns from now!

    Head of Intelligence: The T54 Espionage report:
    167 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+0] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    208 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    208 [+4] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research
    Willem has 24 [+11] Hammers into a build item.
    Willem is 5 [-2] turns away from learning Writing.

    Foreign Advisor: So, shall we Open Borders with Elizabeth?

    X King: Make it so!

    Ambassador Milquetoast: It is worth noting that Shaka is still +2 Annoyed toward Elizabeth, but someone else is his Worst Enemy. So, Shaka has indeed met another AI!

    Foreign Advisor: Shall we also gift a Gems Resource to Elizabeth?

    X King: That idea sounds good to me. She has nothing that we can receive in trade and the sooner that we get started on our gift, the sooner that we can cancel it in the future to renegotiate for a better deal.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Oddly, Elizabeth gains +6 Commerce from Opening Borders with her, even though she only has 2 Cities. What's also interesting is that no other Foreign Trade Routes exist in the world.


    Turn 55, 1800 BC

    Foreign Advisor: The Great Wall has been built by an unknown Civlization. By building that Wonder, that City has climbed to the third ranking on the TOP 5 CITIES page, as London was at third place last turn.

    Spoiler :


    Warrior 2: The Barb Archer has showed up again.

    Warrior 1: Perhaps he'll make his way toward me, where I've built myself a spectacular hilltop, forest-surrounded, river-moated fort!

    Spoiler :


    Work Boat Captain: We have made contact with the citizens from York!

    Spoiler :


    Head of Intelligence: The T55 Espionage report:
    171 [+4] spent by Willem against us
    17 [+0] spent by Shaka against us
    0 [+0] spent by Elizabeth against us
    212 [+4] spent by us against Willem
    211 [+3] currently required to see Willem's Research
    100 [+0] currently required to see Shaka's Research
    84 [+0] currently required to see Elizabeth's Research
    Amsterdam (Willem) has 35 [+11] Hammers in a build item.
    York (Elizabeth) just completed a build item (likely, a Work Boat).
    Willem is 5 [-0] turns away from learning Writing.

    Foreign Advisor: The Rival Best for Soldiers climbed from 76 000 to 82 000, while the Rival Best for Population went down from 259 000 to 254 000.


    Turn 56, 1760 BC

    Science Advisor: We have learned how to more accurately Chop down the Forests!

    Warrior 1: And, we can now build proper Forts! ;)

    Science Advisor: Our toiling in the labs has paid off! We can now share technological secrets with other nations!

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka likes Elizabeth a bit better, being +2 Cautious instead of +2 Annoyed.

    Foreign Advisor: The same can be said of Willem, with him going from +5 Cautious to +5 Pleased toward Elizabeth and him going form +3 Pleased to +3 Cautious toward us.

    Science Advisor: And now, the moment of truth; let us see what other nations have learned.

    Spoiler :


    Foreign Advisor: Masonry is NOT available in trade, but each of Sailing, Animal Husbandry, Mysticism (20% boost on learning Masonry), and Archery are all up for trade.

    Financial Advisor: We could save up Gold for 2 turns and then push the button on Masonry research if it is still not available for trade.

    Science Advisor: We should test if Masonry will still be 2 turns without the overflow Flasks from this turn.

    Financial Advisor: Feel free to do so, but don't forget to account for the possibility of getting Mysticism to boost research on Masonry.

    Foreign Advisor: Wow. Over the course of 1 turn, the Rival Best for Population jumped from 254 000 to 344 000!

    Science Advisor: Here is some info on the options available to us.

    Possible Trades:
    Sailing + Mysticism from Willem <-> Bronze Working + Writing
    Sailing from Willem <-> Bronze Working
    Sailing + Archery from Elizabeth <-> Bronze Working + Writing
    Sailing from Elizabeth <-> Writing
    Gift Writing to Shaka, although Elizabeth might not be too happy, since Shaka is still her Worst Enemy

    Impossible Trades:
    Sailing + Animal Husbandry from Willem <-> Bronze Working + Writing
    Sailing + Archery from Willem <-> Bronze Working + Writing
    Sailing from Elizabeth <-> Bronze Working

    X King: Before we sign off, let's take a quick overview snapshot.

    Spoiler :



    Here is your Session Turn Log from 2000 BC to 1760 BC:
    Spoiler :
    Turn 50, 2000 BC: The borders of Surfin' Turf have expanded!

    Turn 53, 1880 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

    Turn 54, 1840 BC: Surfin' Turf can hurry Granary for 1&#8692; with 11&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
    Turn 54, 1840 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

    Turn 55, 1800 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
    Turn 55, 1800 BC: You have trained a Settler in X-opolis. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
    Turn 55, 1800 BC: Euclid (Great Scientist) has been born in Gems (Pericles)!

    Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!



    The test game is not accurate in terrain that is a bit further away from our empire. It is also most certainly not accurate in terms of techs, as getting the techs right is nearly impossible, especially how, when removing a tech in the World Builder, only 1 Flask is removed from the tech for said AI.

    The test game IS accurate in terms of Food, Hammers, Flasks, and Gold, though, in terms of unit placements (except for the Work Boat), and in terms of Worker placements and Worker actions already performed.


    Masonry would barely take 3 turns instead of 2 turns without the overflow Flasks from T56 and without Mysticism. But, with Mysticism, Masonry is back to being a 2-turn tech, even without the overflow Flasks, which gives us the ability to go for a 0% Science Rate for 2 turns on Currency, then a 100% Science Rate for 2 turns on Masonry.
     

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  7. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Spoiler :
     
  8. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I have been having trouble plowing through all the PPP posts because I'm not keeping up well enough to really add much value to that discussion.

    However, I read Dhoom's turnset reports to the letter! It's like reading a novel. Well done! :goodjob:

    I'm thinking AH + Myst from Willem. Then Sailing and Archery from Liz. I suppose we could skip Archery if the AH trades shows us horses.
     
  9. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Like it. Well done, Dhoom.

    What about waiting a turn and gifting Shaka Myst rather than Writing?

    Concur with Hawk: prefer getting AH from Willem, rather than Sailing.

    Anyone have a feel for the likelihood of Masonry becoming available for trade anytime soon?
     
  10. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Nice work Dhoom. :goodjob:

    Hate to tell you guys this, but Willem is three turns from Writing. To get Animal Husbandry will require that we give him both Writing and Bronze Working. :eek:

    And Lizzie requires both BW and Writing for Sailing and Archery. :eek:

    May as well throw in Writing to Shaka and see if he will be a bit more neighborly? :hmm:
     
  11. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Now I'm available. Shall I take over from Dhoomstriker?
     
  12. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Yes, please do.

    Roster:
    Folket - UP
    Cactus Pete - On Deck
    The-Hawk
    leif
    neilmeister
    Dhoomstriker


    Htadus - RL causes a sabbatical, please come back soon. :)

    @Hawk and CP - You guys know your schedules, id this needs to be adjusted, please let me know. Thanks.
     
  13. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Tuckasegee, NC
    After Thursday, I have no major RL obligations for almost a month, so I can certainly go after Folket. I've done no testing, though, and won't be able to for several days, so it might be better to have Hawk go before me if that works for him.
     
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
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    13,408
    We're still at the stage where the micro is super tight, due to some of the decisions that we've made, so testing is going to be required for playing any turnset for the next little while.


    A few important points in regards to techs:
    - We want to wait until Turn 60 to hope that +1 of universal Peace will be sufficient for Elizabeth to stop hating Shaka. Until that time, Shaka shouldn't get any gifts/trades. It would take 1 turn for a Worst Enemy status to go away, so Turn 61 gifting/trading is likely the earliest. That said, whoever Shaka seems to have met may be someone who Elizabeth meets and Elizabeth also hates, so we do need to keep an eye on the F4 -> RELATIONS screen to see when Shaka is no longer Elizabeth's Worst Enemy
    - We want to avoid the AIs receiving techs that lead to Feudalism, whether in trade from us or in trade from other AIs. We do not give Alphabet to any AI, which prevents them from trading Religious techs with each other. Similarly, we do not give any of Mysticism, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Monotheism, or Monarchy to the AIs.
    - I think that we're fine with selling/gifting Masonry to Shaka at a point when Elizabeth stops treating him as her Worst Enemy (otherwise not gifting/selling Shaka anything), even if it helps to lead to Monotheism, as an AI would still need both Mysticism and Hinduism to learn Monotheism (which leads to Monarchy), and we'd like a nearby AI to have a chance to build The Pyramids for us... unless Shaka's Scout wasn't placed in the same area of the map as his capital, we know that Shaka is on the same continent as us.
    - Willem having gone after Writing is a bit annoying, as it means that if we want his researching Currency/Construction/Calendar next, we would need to:
    1. Trade with Elizabeth, probably for Sailing + Archery <-> Bronze Working + Writing
    2. Sell Bronze Working to Willem for Mysticism
    3. Wait for Willem to self-tech Writing
    4. Get Animal Husbandry + possibly other techs such as Meditation or Polytheism from Willem <-> Math as soon as he finishes self-teching Writing


    EDIT: So, if Willem does have Meditation or Polytheism available for trade, we can divert the Worker who was going to build a Cow Pasture to go directly to Chopping at City 4.
     
  15. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    And please let us not forget this:
    T60 is upcoming.
     
  16. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Joined:
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    proto-PPP
    trades
    Trade writing, bronze working to Elizabeth for sailing and archery. or only writing for archery?
    trade bronze working and writing to William for animal husbandry?

    Research
    Research masonary at 100%.

    I need to do more research on the micro. Might want top do some code reading to find out if begging mystisism is safe and what is needed for masonry to be traded.
     
  17. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Looking at the code it seems like the monopoly value for masonry is 300.

    As far as I can tell William has met a fourth AI who does not know masonry.
     
  18. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    As for begging it seems like we should have 212 in value to ask from William. Our army is bigger which allows us to ask for a little more and value of mysticism should be less then 160. Perhaps 130-150. Depending on whether the last AI has it or not.

    We might choose to wait with masonry for 5 turns so we do not need to demand mysticism from William.
     
  19. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Location:
    Germany
    If you beg from William you'll get yourself dqed
     
  20. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Let us skip that part then.
     

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