SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Jag fick reda på att jag kommer vara ute hos kund idag till på onsdag. Jag kan spela under natten men jag kommer vara trött och det är nog värken bra för jobbet eller spelet. Kanske dhoomstriker kan spela fram till runda 65?
     
  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    As far as you want up to T69, really, but I assumed that you'd need to stop play prior to that time, such as a tech trade becoming available (say, if Willem goes Priesthood -> Iron Working), a Barb Archer showing up in an inconvenient location, meeting the AI on the other side of Shaka, etc.


    The micro looks identical.


    We certainly could build something else.

    Here's the thinking: we're soon going to need 4 Work Boats for the two eastern islands. It's far better to build a Work Boat out of an already-established City than to have a newly-built City build a Work Boat when a newly-built City should instead be focusing on a Granary and a Lighthouse. Gems City doesn't have the production power to build 4 Work Boats, and Surfin' Turf (Cow City) is far away from where the seafood exists.

    After we 3-pop-whip the Settler, we end up with a ton of Hammers (I gave ourselves Bureaucracy in the World Builder on T70, since The Temple of Artemis can't give us a free tech... it's interesting that there are only 2 Religions remaining to choose from in the test game)...
    T70 Give yourself Bureaucracy, then revolt Civics
    T71 Switch to building the Settler and 3-pop-whip it, then switch the G Riv Farm -> GH Riv Mine
    T72 Get enough Hammers to build a Worker in the span of 1 turn, get enough Hammers to build a complete Archer but then lose a ton of those Hammers into a Gold -> Hammer conversion so we wouldn't build an Archer immediately, get enough Hammers to finish off the Barracks, get enough Hammers to build a Galley, get enough Hammers to build a Spy, etc

    But, we could, as an example, build Spy -> Archer in two successive turns, or Spy -> finish off the Work Boat if we'd been building a Work Boat in the turns prior.

    Spy -> finish off the Work Boat would be my choice, which is why it would be good to start on a Work Boat, but we can certainly build something else instead. We don't want to start on a Spy because we might lose Hammers -> Gold if we've already put some Hammers into the Spy ahead of time (the Bureaucracy bonus reduces the amount of Hammers that can carry forward from one build item to the next).

    A Spy could be really useful... send it out explore and spawn-bust in the west and as long as it remains in neutral territory, it is invincible. If we can keep our Spy out of any AI's territory, then there will be no way for it to be caught, and no way for it to die.

    If we can find Shaka's empire, then we can position the Spy between his empire and ours and spot his stack well in advance of its coming, so that we can know when to switch into Military-Unit-production mode.

    I don't really like the idea of spamming a ton of Archers too soon, as each unit costs +1 Gold per turn, which would delay when we can get to Currency + Construction + Metal Casting + Machinery (assuming that we want to go for our Galley-based army of Cats and Maces, but also assuming that we want to start building an army of Catapults much sooner than we could unlock Maces).


    Absolutely! You most certainly have the power to optimize the Science Rates. You said that you weren't sure how to do it, so I gave you some examples at what I believed was a good time to pick different rates. I'd rather that you have the knowledge how to figure it out than feel like you have to ask someone else to figure it out for you. I'm happy to put in the time to help optimize Science Rates, but if you feel that you know what you are doing and want to do it yourself, then please go ahead and figure out better numbers yourself.

    Besides, as soon as an AI founds another City in the real game, the numbers won't match up with what's in the test game.

    The reason why I chose those two turns was because by hiring 1 Scientist, we lose 0.75 Flasks AND we make a total of 3 Flasks (3.75 truncates to 3), and since we earn +1 Flask per turn that does not show up on the F2 screen, it is ideal to make an amount of Flasks on the F2 screen (the number to the right of "Research (percentage %)" where the total number on the F2 screen is "{a multiple of 5} plus 4" (such as 4, 9, 14), and it is pretty good to make "{a multiple of 5}" (such as 5, 10, 15), whereas it is terrible to make "{a multiple of 5} plus 3" (such as 3, 8, 13) when researching a tech that provides a 20% bonus (which is almost all techs).

    That's because "{a multiple of 5} plus 4" will have +1 added to it, so 4 + 1 = 5, and 5 * 1.2 (a 20% bonus) = 6.0, and 6.0 floors to 6. So, 5 Flasks turned into 6 Flasks, giving us a free Flask.

    Meanwhile, "{a multiple of 5} plus 3" will have +1 added to it, so 3 + 1 = 4, and 4 * 1.2 (a 20% bonus) = 4.8, and 4.8 floors to 4. So, 4 Flasks remains as 4 Flasks, just barely not giving us a free Flask.

    So, those turns were turns where it was pretty easy to find a better Science Rate than 0% which would give us a better result, since the 0% scenario was a pretty bad one.

    10% or 40% might no longer give a good result on those turns if +1 AI City gets founded by Willem or Elizabeth, for example.

    Or, if we gift Masonry + Writing + Math to Shaka once Elizabeth doesn't treat him as her Worst Enemy, and then find Shaka's Cultural Borders, we can Open Borders with Shaka and hopefully get a ton of Trade Routes. We might not even find Shaka... we still don't know if he has more than a Scout on our landmass, unless someone has a way of proving where to find an AI.

    Anyway, the point is that you can probably stick to Binary Research (0% or 100%) on most turns, but for those two turns, 0% was not a good choice and we didn't have enough Gold saved up to go 100%, so those 2 turns might be a good time for you to play around with Science Rates. If you don't want to play around in the real game, stop play, and we can update the test game and figure out the ideal numbers.

    It's your turnset... play it as quickly or as slowly as you want.

    If you want to stop for any reason, even if it is not time to make a big decision, then you are allowed to stop early, then plan to play again after getting some feedback or plan to play again the next time that you have some free time available.

    I think that the team wants you to stop, though, if something happens that requires input from the team.

    Also, if you feel that the micro is no longer working out as per the plan, stop play and we can figure out new micro that matches what happened in the real game.



    I fully believe that you have the most difficult turnset of the game. It is hard to focus on good micro for two World Wonders that we are likely competing with multiple AIs to build, all the while having the empire change (new Foreign Trade Routes appearing at any time), having just enough Worker actions to get everything done, intensive micromanagement in each of our Cities, and only having Warriors to counter the Barbs... it is a very, very challenging turnset. That is why we want to prepare you as best as we can for this turnset with micro pre-planned, in the hopes that doing so makes it easier for you to tackle this great challenge. I am confident in your skills and abilities and I am very happy that you are the one to play out this turnset. Good luck! :goodjob:
     
  3. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Spoiler :
    I found out that I'll be busy with a customer from today until Wednesday. I can play during the night, but I will be tired. Perhaps, Dhoom, you can play up until T65?


    I am happy to wait until you have time and you are ready to play. The earliest that I would have time to play would be 36 hours from the timestamp of this message, but I still would prefer that you play your own turnset.

    You can always play the game a little bit at a time, say, 2 turns at a time, or even 1 turn at a time. Phoenix Rising plays this way. That way, if anything goes wrong, we'll have even more time to deal with whatever troubles arise in the real game.
     
  4. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Green here to 65, and hope you'll play on after that.

    Your understanding of the micro far exceeds mine. When something comes up that causes a real change in plans would be when it would make sense to turn it over.
     
  5. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    ok then, I will play 3 turns a night to not get to tired.
     
  6. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    turn 58
    nothing to report.

    turn 59
    gifted priesthood to William who started monarchy.

    turn 60
    I have found Shakas land out in the fog. He is on the same continent.

    Spoiler :
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 5.
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: Elizabeth is the worst enemy of Shaka.
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: Elizabeth is the worst enemy of Shaka.
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: City 4 has been founded.
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
    Turn 58, 1680 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Gems. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

    Turn 59, 1640 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 59, 1640 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 6 on the next turn.

    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Gems can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 17 turns.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for City 4.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for X-opolis.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Gems will grow to size 3 on the next turn.


    http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1600_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
     

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  7. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    It seems like Elizabeth still hates Shaka.
     
  8. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Nice work!

    Okay, it's good to know that Shaka is near. Well, it's bad that he's near (since his hands are full), but good to know about him being near. ;)

    3 turns at a time seems like a good pace... doing so gives the rest of the team enough of a chance to look over the game to see if anything odd pops out on the Espionage screen, on the F4 TECHS screen, or anywhere else, while you go to sleep.


    Hmmm, have the AIs given each other +1 for 60 turns of Shared Peace or will that happen next turn? (I can check later if you've already closed the game.)

    Anyway, we'll just have to keep an eye out to see if there will be a tech-gifting opportunity when one of those AIs is not the other's Worst Enemy. The more neighbours who know our non-Religious and non-Alphabet techs, the better chance we'll get of earning free techs relative to SGOTM teams who are tight-fisted with their techs.


    With Shaka's City being where it is, I suppose that it's possible that he shares Cultural Borders with Willem, making Willem more of a likely war target than us.

    A Spy being built after Settler 5 makes even more sense to me, with Shaka being that close.


    Willem researching Monarchy is not really ideal... but, I suppose that it's better that an AI who only has 1 City will be the AI to be only 1 tech away from Feudalism.

    This fact does mean that going to war with Willem to take his capital (and leave him with a junky City in our area that we gift to him before the war... such as a non-Coastal City that uses several Riverside squares but has no Resources that we wouldn't really want to keep until much later in the game) a good approach, even if we don't set that situation up until after well after having gifted him Gold/Workers.

    Along with that timing, we gift him some of our Cities that we've whipped to the bone and then recapture said Cities, leaving only 1 gifted City in his hands to become his new capital and the other gifts just being used to reset whipping Unhappiness (with the cost of having to start with empty Granaries in exchange for massive whip abuse).


    On the plus side, it means us being able to spam Warriors once Willem trades us Monarchy, at least for our capital... if +1 Warrior allows us to work +1 G Riv Cottage in our capital (due to giving us +1 Happiness), then building said Warriors will be a solid approach, as the Cottage will immediately more than pay for the extra unit cost (3 Gold per turn for every 4 Warriors), and then said Cottage will get multiplied by Bureaucracy and then further multiplied by our +75% Science multiplier (from a Library and an Academy).

    Getting the G Riv Cottages set up is going to be the tough part... Worker 5 after Settler 5 is an option, but I still think that we need a Spy, so we'll have to think about getting a Worker or two back to the capital sometime after T69 to start laying down Cottages.

    We also need to think about getting a Worker to Triple Fish island, so that we can have at least one PH Mine pre-improved when we settle there.


    Feel free to invent your own creative name for "City 4." You can open up the City screen and click on the City's Name to change its Name.


    Thinking about the Religion issue further, it would suck if we got Hinduism auto-spreading to us and Willem asked us to convert... we would have to refuse him, so as not to delay The Oracle.

    With Willem going for Monarchy, which is a non-monopoly tech, we don't really need to get him up to Friendly status, though, so refusing him isn't the end of the world.

    It WOULD be really nice to get one or both of Shaka and Elizabeth up to Friendly status, so that we can have one or two good trading partners in the medium term.
     
  9. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Real Game Comments
    The real game's micro looks the same as the test game's micro... therefore, the T60 test game in message #375 is essentially already up-to-date, in terms of the micro. :cool:


    Hmmm, even after +1 Years of Peace, as you said, Elizabeth still hates Shaka.

    Unfortunately, in our test game, Sury has already known each of Mysticism, Writing, and Masonry, so giving him those techs isn't a useful test for Worst Enemy hatred testing.

    I loaded the test game from T59 and made Isabella hate Sury, then advanced the game to T60 and gave Sury Mysticism, Masonry, and Writing via the World Builder. I also gave Meditation to Willem and to ourselves (Isabella already has it), as well as Priesthood to Willem (Isabella also already has it), as the total value of { Polytheism + Meditation + Priesthood } exceeds the value of { Writing + Masonry. } So, in terms of gifting to Sury (who represents Shaka):
    Gifting him Polytheism (more value than Masonry, less value than Writing) does not give Isabella -1
    Gifting him Math does not give Isabella -1
    Gifting him Polytheism, Meditation, and Math gives Isabella -1
    Gifting him Polytheism, Meditation, and Math, then Priesthood on the following turn, gives Isabella -2
    One turn later, on Turn 62, that -2 has worn off and is down to -1 again

    The cost of those 4 techs represents more than the total cost of Masonry + Writing + Math.


    Thus, as long as Elizabeth continues to hate Shaka, our choice comes between:
    1. Gift only Masonry to Shaka, which shouldn't be enough tech value for Elizabeth to hate us by -1. Shaka might try to build The Pyramids, but he has a smaller chance of doing so while at war
    OR
    2. Gift Masonry + Writing to Shaka this turn, then Math to Shaka next turn. We're expecting to see a total of -1 to -2 from Elizabeth, with a -2 value quickly wearing off to -1. Over time, that -1 will wear off, too
    OR
    3. Wait until Shaka Demands a tech from us, in order to earn us +1 Diplo with Shaka and to earn us 10 turns of guaranteed Peace with Shaka. After we give him whatever tech he asks for, we then gift him Masonry + Writing + Math
    OR
    4. Don't gift anything at all to Shaka and keep him backward


    Interesting Facts
    Elizabeth learned Priesthood on either T59 or T60.

    Willem has just completed a build item in Amsterdam.

    Elizabeth has 4 Hammers into a build item in York.

    Elizabeth's Work Boat has revealed X-opolis.

    Amsterdam is the top City in the world.

    Shaka has roughly 10% of the World's Population (that number gets rounded or truncated for AIs), while we have 7.84% with City Sizes 3, 2, 2, and 1.

    For comparison, two turn ago on T58, Shaka had roughly 11% of the World's Population, while we had 8.91% of it with City Sizes 5, 2, and 2. Since these numbers are percentages, they are hard to compare across turns, as one AI growing its Cities elsewhere in the world can alter the percentage values, so we don't know if Shaka actually whipped any population points or if some other AIs are simply growing their Cities. What you can compare is the numbers on the same turn to get an idea of how large Shaka's Cities are relative to our Cities.

    Our GNP is the largest at 49, but one AI out there has a GNP of 48, whereas the worst AI has a GNP of 29. Of course, Culture gets counted in this number, so founding a Religion can boost up an AI player.

    We have a little bit more than half of the Military might of the strongest AI, and just a little bit more Military might than the weakest AI.
     
  10. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Medium-Term Strategy
    I've been doing some more thinking about what we're going to do with Shaka, in conjunction with our medium-term teching path. In particular, his "hands full" status has some people on the team concerned.

    I think that we can all say that after our current tech of Code of Laws, we're going to want to research Currency. The only way that we might not do so is if Willem researches Currency as his next tech, and by then, we'll probably have dumped at least some Flasks into Currency.

    After that, I'm thinking that we'll go for Construction ourselves.

    So, maybe it is TOO LATE to gift techs to Shaka and we're better off keeping him backward technologically, as the most likely tech that he could help us out on (Construction), is a tech that we're going to tech soon ourselves.

    If he researches Construction when we're about 2 turns away from learning the tech, then his research efforts won't really have helped us (and we'll even lose 1 Flask on the last turn of researching Construction due to him knowing it :p).


    On the other hand, if he doesn't learn Mysticism, Writing, or Masonry for a long time, his Cities will be a joke defensively, since Mysticism or Writing leads to 20% or 40% Cultural Defences and Masonry leads to 50% City Defences (via Walls).

    Maybe the best thing is for us to push to Code of Laws -> Currency -> Construction for our Catapults, build up an army, then prepare to fight against a technologically backward Shaka by not trading any techs to Shaka.


    Him being in "hands full" mode greatly reduces the chance that he's going to build a Wonder for us, and he already has a low chance to build Wonders (having a 2/10 rating in the "Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)" thread).


    The two main points of enabling our neighbours was for them to build Wonders for us and to research useful techs for us, but if Shaka can do neither of those things, then we shouldn't gift techs to him.


    So, maybe the best play is to keep Shaka backward and when he declares war on us, we can fend off his attack and eventually counter-attack at his very weak Cities.


    If we're agreed on our tech path up to Construction, then it's too late to gift techs to Shaka in hopes that he'll learn Construction for us, so we might as well keep him backward and give him no techs EXCEPT for any tech that he Demands, which we should give to him, as doing so buys us a minimum of 10 turns of Peace and probably longer due to his stack of doom no longer being able to target our empire.


    EDIT: Basically, if you agree that we'll go for Code of Laws -> Currency -> Construction, then let's keep Shaka backward.
     
  11. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Blev inget igår då jag var så trött. Men borde kunna spela ikväll.
     
  12. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    RE: Techs to Shaka, I agree. Maybe I'm just overreacting to Shaka being in the game, but even if he is not preparing to attack now, it seems likely to me we will war with him at some point in the not too distant future. He builds so many units I think keeping him backwards on techs is prudent.
     
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Spoiler :
    I did not play yesterday since I was so tired. But, I should be able to play tonight.


    Do not worry. I believe that we have a lot of patient people on this team. At least, I, personally, want you to feel that you are in a mood to enjoy your playing time. If you are too tired to play, then wait for another day when you will have the energy to be excited about the game.

    If a player approaches the game with sufficient energy to portray true excitement and a positive attitude, then I believe that the turnset will be a success no matter what the outcome. :cool:


    Indeed, whether Shaka goes to war against us (in which case we will have to fight him) or whether he goes to war against Elizabeth, Willem, or the AI that we'll presumably find to the west of Shaka (trapped behind his Cultural Borders), it could be a good time for us to get involved in that war... perhaps stealing Cities from Shaka when his non-capital Cities still have 0% Defensive bonuses.

    Enough Catapults + anything can capture a City, if that's what we need to do in order to secure Copper or Iron, and then we can unleash the Phalanx and later the Beserkers (I'm envisioning enough warring to promote our Military Units to start with a couple of Promotions like the Vikings do... and, after getting 2 settled Great Generals, we can launch Viking-like 3-movement-point Galleys).
     
  14. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Well, 13 hours today so I'm exhausted now. But at least it is done. I will play some tomorrow morning after I have had some sleep.
     
  15. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Get your sleep. The idea is to enjoy this.
     
  16. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Hope you get a nice, peaceful :sleep:

    Best of luck in the morning.

    Would just like to concur with Hawk's concern about giving Shaka too many techs.
     
  17. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    turn 61
    Elizabeth has stoped hating Shaka. BBut it seems like we are no longer interested in giving him techs.
    Gave AH to Elizabeth. This made her dislike Shaka again. To bad, we will loose out on trade route commerce.
    Two barbs going towards warrior 2. Moved warrior 2 to where they do not see him.

    turn 62
    Met Isabella. She has founded the Buddhist religion. Has meditation and Monotheism. She came with a worb boat from the south. We do not have trade routes to her but if we open our border she is likly to find a route to us.

    Save the game so we can discuss Isabella.

    http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1520_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

    Spoiler :
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Gems can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 17 turns.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for City 4.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for X-opolis.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Gems will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
    Turn 60, 1600 BC: Gems will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

    Turn 61, 1560 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 4.
    Turn 61, 1560 BC: Gems has grown to size 3.
    Turn 61, 1560 BC: Surfin' Turf can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
    Turn 61, 1560 BC: Elizabeth has no worst enemy.
    Turn 61, 1560 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for City 4.

    Turn 62, 1520 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
    Turn 62, 1520 BC: The borders of Gems are about to expand.
    Turn 62, 1520 BC: The borders of City 4 are about to expand.
    Turn 62, 1520 BC: Isabella will trade Monotheism
    Turn 62, 1520 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Isabella

    Barbs went away.
     
  18. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Looking good! :thumbsup:

    On Izzi, she will take Writing and Mining for Monotheism. The question is whether she needs Sailing to establish trade routes with us? If she needs Sailing, perhaps we should make the trade for Writing and Mining and then gift Sailing?

    Is it safe enough to send Warrior2 SW to recon the Horse site?
     
  19. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Why wait with giving her sailing? I think we should just give her all three techs for monotheism. A good thing with giving Isabella our techs would be that it gives Elizabeth a chance to loose rank and start liking Shaka again. Getting more foreign trade routes is always nice.

    It is not safe to move SW. We have not seen the archer there for a while now but we did see one ten turns ago. But if not safe is safe enough I do not know.
     
  20. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Does a gift give more diplo points than just trading it? That is the only reason I suggested gifting Sailing. :)

    Not sure how long it will be before we are ready to send a settle down there, but would be nice to know what is there. But not at the cost of a Warrior at this time.
     

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