SGOTM 21 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Post-gifting, beginning of T83 save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC0800_02.CivBeyondSwordSave

Pre-gifting screen shot:

Post-gifting screen shot:

Sending PM's requesting I#1, then waiting for discussion.

 

[BSPollux]

Done.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Done.

Yes, and this one I like. Need for GPs suggests Fish City might be better as a GP farm than building Statues there, although Statues does help towards a GPriest. Ankor Wat (which allows us to run 3 priests and is unlocked by Phil and possibility of Pacifism) might be an alternative. Also suggests that we should get C#1 sooner than later to facilitate planning.

Propose a barracks next in Surf & Turf. Otherwise, not many immediate decisions pending except gifting for C#1.

Planning to wait on Construction before max espionage on Mansa, but note that we may not get Construction in three turns unless we run scientist.

Waiting on feedback.

 

[neilmeister]

Isabella ("Isabella is all into romantic gestures. My first suggestion to win her heart would be...")
a) Have the most brilliant minds of your time explain to her that your love is pure, true and eternal (bring one artist, scientist and prophet to her capital and gift them to her)

Ouch.... its easy but expensive.

I agree with CP, we are philosophic & NE suddenly becomes more attractive.
3 Fish island would seem the best place for NE, but obviously we would not want Maoi there as well.

What this does say to me is that we need to get the rest of the clues quickly so we can actually plan everything. I would rather not pay cash for the next clues as this will slow down getting the units we need. Therefore, Iron city needs to be built & connected and we need Cats & Axes/X-bows asap.

 

[Cactus Pete]

By far the quickest way to get C#1 is to buy it. Propose we do that, then, if C#1 seems reasonably obtainable, wait to buy more.

 

[leif erikson]

What this does say to me is that we need to get the rest of the clues quickly so we can actually plan everything. I would rather not pay cash for the next clues as this will slow down getting the units we need. Therefore, Iron city needs to be built & connected and we need Cats & Axes/X-bows asap.

Can we still gift a Worker for a clue?

 

[neilmeister]

OK, I agree we need to find out if the other options require less teching to achieve than C#2.

Do we need to do it now, not sure. First priorities are probably expansion & to focus on getting Cats & Axes/X-bows so we are in a position to defend against Shaka and conquer our island. Our economy is on fire and can support a pile of new cities.....

edit: we are at the last opportunity to gift 2 workers, after next clue the price goes up to 3

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It certainly makes life easy,

Well, then I can continue with helping to write the plans for now. You have a turnset where we have to be pretty tight in our build items in order to make the launching of the war happen soon and smoothly.

I did make an update before you last played, but you might not have seen it, as I suggested a Research build to earn us a bonus Flask.

Any turn at 100% Science when we are not going to complete a tech on a turn, we have an opportunity to "top up" our Flasks to earn a good multiple of Flasks. Doing so on the last turn of learning a tech is pointless, as we end up with a different amount of bonus Flasks on the last turn of learning a tech due to the way that the Flask overflow calculation only uses up "just enough" Flasks to complete research on the tech, then performs some fancy math to mess up calculations, and then the overflow gets added in for the following turn, so we can just perform the calculation on the following turn.

But, doing so on any turn where we aren't about to complete research on a tech can be a good way to earn more free Flasks over time. I.e. It's worth doing on T83, but it's pointless to do on T84, as we'll be completing researach on Construction on T84.

Right now, it's tough to say what to suggest for Turn 83's Research build or possible hiring of a Scientist, since we haven't settled the Triple Fish Island City yet.

If we're going to buy another clue this turn, it would be nice if you could settle that City before buying the clue, so that we can make sure that the test game's Foreign Trade Routes match up with what we see in the real game.

but can certainly post a plan

Actually, it's good to discuss things at a higher level than what we're putting in the turn-by-turn PPP, so that we can all have understanding and buy-in with where we're going, and can adjust our plans as new ideas arise.

Would like to explore W's territory to see if he has iron, perhaps to spot Shaka's units coming through, and for intel for future war. So, would plan to send the future spy from capital there.

The war with Willem is going to happen before we'd get a chance to send our Spy to Willem.

From an overall perspective, the idea is to send the capital's Spy to City 4, and to whip a Spy out of City 4. That way, we'll have 2 Spies sitting inside of City 4 when we gift City 4 to Willem, giving us 2 chances to steal Theology.

If we perform the stealing successfully with at least 1 Spy surviving, that Spy could then head toward Willem, but that will be many turns from now, perhaps after you've handed off the saved game to the next player. We'd also then need to decide if it's better to just keep that Spy in the neutral territory between us an Willem, where our Spy cannot die (it can only die in an AI's territory), giving us advance warning of Chariots coming our way from Willem's core Cities.

For now, we could certainly send our Archer 1 west through the Peaks and then north-west toward Willem's western side of his empire, to see if we can locate his 3rd City.

Have you worked out on which turn to switch back to wkbt?

It's not yet, but quite soon. I still have yet to work out the exact turn.

The other factor is that we may want to work the GH Riv Mine in X-opolis for a bit, to finish off both the Work Boat and the Spy. The sooner that we complete our Spy, the longer it will have to sit in City 4 and the cheaper that it will be to steal Theology.

Do I give Mansa (or anyone else) Alpha if requested/demanded?

I used to think "yes," but given Folket's awesome idea of capturing and Liberating Cities to a distant AI to secure an AP win, I now believe that it's better to refuse such a Request/Demand.

Of course, if we find out that an AI from whom we want to get other techs, such as Mansa, is self-teching Alphabet, we'll almost certainly decide to give Alphabet to Mansa.

Could bring wkbt2 back to help with Fish City, but thinking exploration more important.

Keep exploring eastward, please. At the start of the game, we wanted to explore eastward, but couldn't find a path that way. Now that we have a path, we want to head as far east as we can. That way, when we unlock Caravels, Circumnavigation can come in a shorter period of time.

Regarding settling an Iron City: the plan to settle south and utilize Fish City mines presumes Moai Statues being successfully built there, but that would presumably be after both granary and lighthouse get built -- Is that timing a good bet?

Here's what I'm thinking:
National Epic + hopefully Chopped Great Library in Amsterdam
Moai Statues on Triple Fish Island

I'm still waiting to understand what neilmeister meant by having more options by settling 1N of the P Sheep.

The only things that I can think of is that settling 1N of the P Sheep gives us more Coast squares to work over time and maybe better fog-busts to prevent Barb Galleys from appearing in the area. Those reasons could be sufficient to settle 1N of the P Sheep if we want to.

thinking a barracks [in City 4] after warrior.

Hmmmm. City 4 should be doing something like:
Completing the Warrior
3-pop-whipping the northern Fish City Settler
Building a Scout with overflow Hammers
Whipping a Spy, to give it time to accumulate 5 turns of stationary bonus
Building a Scout with overflow Hammers
Whipping Cats/Scouts until we're down to Size 1

I don't think that there's time for a Barracks.

Propose a barracks next in Surf & Turf.

Do we want Horse City? Do we want Catapults?
There isn't really time to build Barracks before we're ready to declare war. This City will eventually get a Barracks, but we have limited population points to whip and every Cat built now brings us closer to earning our Great Generals.
Surfin' Turf is probably going to do something like:
Archer -> capture overflow Hammers in the Settler
Probably build a Cat for a turn to grow the City a bit before whipping the Settler
3-pop-whip the Settler
Build a Scout with overflow
Regrow to Size 5 while slow-building a Scout
Whip the Catapult sometime at Size 5, either when we just grow there or preferably when we're about to grow to Size 6 but don't quite hit Size 6

Ankor Wat (which allows us to run 3 priests and is unlocked by Phil and possibility of Pacifism) might be an alternative.

Angkor Wat costs 500 Hammers

Hinduism + Confucianism + some City getting a Buddhism auto-spread (it's happened several times in the test game) = 3 * 40 H for Missionaries and 3 * 80 H for Temples.
That's 120 + 240 = 360 Hammers, but the 120 Hammers come from other Cities and whipped Temples won't receive a whipping penalty like whipped Wonders will, so it's actually going to be quicker to get the Priest Specialists hired this way.

I'm not saying that we can't build the Angkor Wat, but there's a cheaper way of doing the same thing, while still being able to capture the Wonder from an AI to get the bonus Hammers for Priest Specialists.

Angkor War would provide +2 base GPP, though, and with a Forge and Organized Religion, the raw Hammer cost comes down to 500 / 1.5 = 333 H... although add some Hammers because we don't always get an even number of Hammers and thus we won't get the 50% bonus Hammers on the 7th, 9th, 11th, etc Hammer, so about 350 Hammers.

Assuming working 3 PH Mines for 12 H, City Centre for 2 H, and another, say, 6 water squares, that's 12 + 2 + 6 = 20 Hammers per turn, or about 18 turns to set up, assuming that we've started with a large-sized Triple Fish Island City that already has Moai Statues, a Forge, and Confucianism in it. Whipping Temples just requires the Missionaries to be whipped from other Cities then population points to almost immediately whip the Temples.

It might end up being preferable to build Temples and hire one or two Priests over time than to wait that long.

There's also the chance that we could spawn a Great Prophet from City 4 later.

but note that we may not get Construction in three turns unless we run scientist.

Settling Triple Fish City will give us enough Flasks, but as I said, it would help to see a real saved game with that City settled, so that we can maximize our Flask gain this turn with a relevant Research build (or hired Scientist).

I would rather not pay cash for the next clues as this will slow down getting the units we need.

Whatever do you mean? We need less than 80 Gold to finish off Construction. I'm not sure of the exact amount because we haven't settled Triple Fish City yet.

After Construction, we have enough techs to build our army.

Therefore, Iron city needs to be built & connected and we need Cats & Axes/X-bows asap.

Cats ASAP, yes, but Axes/Swords aren't an immediate priority, as we first want Drill III Cats and City Raider III Cats and only then will need to start paying Unit Costs for an army of metal units.

Crossbows won't be happening as our tech path is going to be:
Construction -> Aesthetics -> Literature -> Music -> Paper -> double-Lightbulb Education -> Lightbulb Philosophy if we haven't obtained it from an AI -> try to get Metal Casting and maybe Machinery in trade from Mansa otherwise self-tech them -> try to get Compass from some AI, otherwise self-tech it -> Optics -> Liberalism for Astronomy

Literature = Heroic Epic, National Epic, Great Library
Music = Great Artist to launch a Golden Age to get our Great Scientists for Lightbulbing Education
Education = cheap Universities + early Oxford to make technological research occur insanely fast


Clues
What is it with our terrible luck? That's 3 out of 3 non-obsoleting tasks.

We rolled the dice on the Isabella quest and sure enough, we lost the dice roll and got a non-obsoleting task.

I want to see an easier, but obsoletable task already.

Can we please buy Elizabeth #2 now?


Suggested Next PPP
Settle Triple Fish Island -> doing so can help with figuring out the bonus Flasks in the test game
Call the City whatever you want
Work the PH Mine in City 6
Build a Granary in City 6
Perform the 133-Gold gift procedure for Willem

Which clue to ask for?
Cactus Pete = Catherine #1, to plan our end game
Dhoom = Elizabeth #2, to get possibly the earliest-to-obsolete task; our end-game probably has to wait until after Astronomy and we'll need Oxford to pump our way through Astronomy, so I feel that Catherine #1 can wait until we're gifting Workers to Willem, which we have a plan to do where we'll get our Workers back immediately

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Can we still gift a Worker for a clue?

After 11 turns our Worker could arrive in Willem's capital. By that time, an obsoletable task may have already obsoleted.

We have to consider that BSPollux planned for an "average pace teching" team to be able to beeline Currency and have time to buy some clues before the tasks will obsolete.

Even though we have a fast research pace, we delayed Currency and BSPollux made it clear that it is important to learn the obsoleteable tasks early but that there would also be tradeoffs for going for Currency right away.

Well, we tried to get the best of both worlds, by delaying Currency and scoring Civil Service at Immortal! But, now is the era to purchase obsoletable tasks before they obsolete and then our payments really would disappear in a puff of smoke.

If Elizabeth #2 doesn't obsolete until, say, Guilds (build her 20 Chariots), then we can safely ignore purchasing further tasks for a while.

But, if Elizabeth #2 obsoletes, say, at Math (build and gift her The Hanging Gardens), then it may even be wise for us to spend 166 Gold to learn Isabella #2 in the short term.

edit: we are at the last opportunity to gift 2 workers, after next clue the price goes up to 3

I believe that you may have misinterpreted the payment plan.

Buying the 50-Gold clue does not prevent us from buying the 1-Worker clue.

We have 20 payment options available, not 10 options where we have to make a choice.

The current plan is to go to war with Willem so that we can relocate his capital to the northern Fish City location, then gift him these gifts:
1 Worker
2 Workers
2 Workers
2 Workers

The key to remember is that Gold doesn't have to be gifted in any "location," while Workers must be gifted in Willem's capital, wherever it is located at the time of the gift.

Doing so gets us 4 more clues, and we can recapture our Workers immediately for only a few lost Worker turns for each Worker.

Let's say that in the worst case, Elizabeth #2 and Isabella #2 will obsolete prior to us being able to pull off that stunt.

In that case, we would buy Elizabeth #2, but it would already be obsolete, so we would buy Elizabeth #3. We would also buy Isabella #2, but it would already be obsolete, so we would buy Isabella #3. We'd still not know anything about Catherine's other 2 tasks.

On the other hand, let's say that we buy Elizabeth #2 now and it's to build The Hanging Gardens. We race to make that happen and then we will never need to buy Elizabeth #3. We would then either buy Isabella #2 in the short term, since Elizabeth #2 obsoleted so quickly, or we'd just wait and take a risk that Isabella #2 wouldn't obsolete by that time.

We could then spend our 4 Worker clues on Isabella #2, Isabella #3, Catherine #1, and Catherine #3.

Or, if we'd also bought Isabella #2 with Gold in the short term, we could have 2 less Workers losing Worker turns or we could buy the "Where are Isabella and Catherine located?" clue with our 4th Worker clue.

 

[neilmeister]

I'm still waiting to understand what neilmeister meant by having more options by settling 1N of the P Sheep

The main option I thought was because it does allow a city in the middle of the 4, as you mentioned. This gives us options: do we gift it away for espionage abuse....

Whatever do you mean? We need less than 80 Gold to finish off Construction.

I suppose I wanted more than Axes... X-Bows or Maces and Trebs are not far away, and fit in with a strategy of MC for Colossus on the way to Optics.
It all depends if we need to tech deeply, 2 of the tasks do not require it.

I had missed in all the pages the desired teching plan.

You are correct I misinterpreted the payment plan, this makes me even more keen on not spending any more cash and just using workers. I doubt we will need more than 4 more clues.


edit: I am thinking Artist from Music could be best used on Isabella#1...the more I think about it the more I think this is a really easy & fast task.

 

[BSPollux]

edit: we are at the last opportunity to gift 2 workers, after next clue the price goes up to 3

This means I noted your payment wrong. Ooops! How did you pay for your clues? Remind me, please.

Edit:

I believe that you may have misinterpreted the payment plan.

Buying the 50-Gold clue does not prevent us from buying the 1-Worker clue.

Oh, or maybe not?

 

[neilmeister]

This means I noted your payment wrong. Ooops! How did you pay for your clues? Remind me, please.

My mistake.... I thought there were 10 payment options, not 20.

I thought you could either pay 1 worker or 50g, but the next payment would be 2 workers or 75g.....

 

[BSPollux]

OK, nice.

Yep, its really cheap

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The main option I thought was because it does allow a city in the middle of the 4, as you mentioned. This gives us options: do we gift it away for espionage abuse....

Good point. I must be getting senile that I forgot my own reasoning.

Sure, we can plan to settle 1N of the P Sheep for this reason. Due to being Creative, we don't have to worry about settling adjacent to the Iron.

The nice thing about a City settled later at that extra spot (3W of the Iron, NE + 2N of Gems City, and SE + 2E of City 4) is that with 100 Culture in that City, both City 4 and Gems City could become "active" for Spread Culture Missions 1 turn after gifting City 4 and Gems City. With Confucianism in Gems City and The Oracle in City 4, each of those 2 Cities will passively generate a lot of Culture for us over time, making them good candidates for an EP Culture Victory.

I suppose I wanted more than Axes...

We have more than Axes... we have Phalanx to replace our Axes.

Swords can also be good as long as Willem doesn't connect a metal Resource.

Seriously, though, we don't need expensive units when we have a stack of powerful Catapults, allowing us to better focus our research on unlocking cheap Universities and Oxford University.

X-Bows or Maces and Trebs are not far away,

They are far away since no AI has learned Metal Casting and they aren't really on our tech path.

When an Archer is down to 1.5 Health, a Mace isn't really any better than a Phalanx, and costs more Hammers, meaning that we'd have less units that can kill AI defenders (Cat's can't kill).

and fit in with a strategy of MC for Colossus on the way to Optics.

Unless you have a super awesome plan for how to capture Shaka's capital (which is settled on top of Copper--talk about mean!), this Wonder won't be cheap for us to build. It's not like we're working a whole lot of Coast squares... X-opolis will focus on Cottages then Mines, Gems City is not likely to build a Lighthouse until later in the game, Surfin' Turf will have Farms and Mines to work, Corn City has no Coast squares...

Yes, Athens (Fur Island) and Triple Fish Island City will work some Coast/Ocean squares and we're working 1 Crab in X-opolis, 1 Crab + 1 Lake in Surfin' Turf, but that's not a lot of Coast/Ocean squares.

Forges are nice, but we're not Industrious and we have Organized Religion to already make Colosseums come at an insanely cheap price ( 80 / 2.25 = 36 Hammers for 2 Happiness, 3 Culture, and the ability to hire Artist Specialists). +1 Happiness from a Forge + a Gems Resource is nice but not really needed with Odeons and Hereditary Rule.

We've already chosen to forego an Optics Lightbulb by grabbing Civil Service.

A Machinery Lightbulb may be possible after learning Paper + Education, but Optics won't be Lightbulbable until after learning Printing Press.

So, we've already passed on the "early Optics" approach by going for the "early Bureaucracy + Academy + early Oxford" approach instead.

It all depends if we need to tech deeply, 2 of the tasks do not require it.

Well, we will almost certainly want Astronomy, whether it's to reach all of the AIs or whether it's to enable effective later-game Conquesting to properly set up Folket's idea of capturing and Liberating a bunch of Cities from an AI or two to vote us to an AP Victory.

We've already chosen the Liberalise Astronomy path, which is actually potentially much stronger than Lightbulbing Astronomy in a game with a Philosophical Leader, as it means properly leveraging cheap Universities. Given that we ALSO have cheap Libraries, to make it easy to spam cheap Universities, it's an even stronger play than for most other Philosophical Leaders.

BSPollux already has stated multiple times that it will be a deep-teching game. The only way that's possible if all 3 of Catherine's tasks require late-game techs to complete.

But, even if we can somehow shut off research at Astronomy, our medium term tech path is pretty set in terms of how we go about getting there.

Once we get eyes on Mansa's research, we'll ideally be able to direct him toward learning something useful for us (Metal Casting or Compass).

edit: I am thinking Artist from Music could be best used on Isabella#1...the more I think about it the more I think this is a really easy & fast task.

Sorry, that Great Artist is spoken for... it will launch our first Golden Age, to help us be able to Lightbulb Education and possibly Philosophy or Machinery... or, we might get a Great Merchant and use him to fund research for a while.

But, with Odeons opening up 2 Artist slots and costing roughly 36 Hammers, as well as Theatres opening up another 2 Artist slots and costing 50 / 2.25 = 23 Hammers, it's insanely easy to get a City with 4 Artist Specialists.

Getting a Great Artist won't be hard to do at all.

You are correct I misinterpreted the payment plan, this makes me even more keen on not spending any more cash and just using workers. I doubt we will need more than 4 more clues.

Well, we know for sure that BSPollux has warned us that some tasks will obsolete and therefore it's important to learn those tasks early.

Forget how much Gold we've already spent, because it's bought us zero tasks that will obsolete so far.

What we know is that there are 6 other tasks remaining, some or all of which will obsolete.

Given that we have revealed 100% non-obsoleting tasks, our odds have gone up dramatically of finally purchasing a task that will obsolete.

Knowing such a task sooner rather than later is worth an investment in Gold.

So, what we need to look at is whether knowing that information is worth 133 Gold.

The other factor to keep in mind is that if we wait for the roughly 30 turns from now when Willem's relocated capital can have Workers gifted to it, some tasks are likely to have become obsolete, so we'll end up buying "dud" tasks.

As I said, if we buy Elizabeth #2 and it's something that can happen later in the game, then we should be able to safely assume that Isabella #2 will happen as late or later than that time.

 

[Folket]

If we hope to generate a great prophet gifting city 4 does not seem optimal to me. I think we can do fine just gifting the northern fish. Perhaps someone can look at how long it would take to get a great prophet from triple fish.

At the moment I'm not certain we need to tech that much. Once we have a great prophet Isabella is done. But we need to get the great prophet soon, as it gets harder to generate for each GP we get. Artists and scientists are really easy to starve out.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well, then I can continue with helping to write the plans for now. You have a turnset where we have to be pretty tight in our build items in order to make the launching of the war happen soon and smoothly.

I did make an update before you last played, but you might not have seen it, as I suggested a Research build to earn us a bonus Flask. Sorry, it didn't occur to me to look.

Any turn at 100% Science when we are not going to complete a tech on a turn, we have an opportunity to "top up" our Flasks to earn a good multiple of Flasks. It's worth doing on T83, but it's pointless to do on T84, as we'll be completing researach on Construction on T84.

Right now, it's tough to say what to suggest for Turn 83's Research build or possible hiring of a Scientist, since we haven't settled the Triple Fish Island City yet.

If we're going to buy another clue this turn, it would be nice if you could settle that City before buying the clue, so that we can make sure that the test game's Foreign Trade Routes match up with what we see in the real game. So, I'll play T83 but not press Enter, allowing you to calculate flask maximization and more discussion on whether/what clue to buy.

The war with Willem is going to happen before we'd get a chance to send our Spy to Willem. That's news to me. Can you give an approximate turn # for declaring war?

From an overall perspective, the idea is to send the capital's Spy to City 4, and to whip a Spy out of City 4. That way, we'll have 2 Spies sitting inside of City 4 when we gift City 4 to Willem, giving us 2 chances to steal Theology.

If we perform the stealing successfully with at least 1 Spy surviving, that Spy could then head toward Willem, but that will be many turns from now, perhaps after you've handed off the saved game to the next player. No doubt, as I'm going out of town and completely out of contact on the 22nd through the 29th. (Heads up to The-Hawk.)

For now, we could certainly send our Archer 1 west through the Peaks and then north-west toward Willem's western side of his empire, to see if we can locate his 3rd City. I would do that, but wouldn't it allow a barb axe to show up and cause problems? Not sure the rest of team is willing to risk that.

It's not yet, but quite soon. I still have yet to work out the exact turn.
Thought not. Will continue building spy.

The other factor is that we may want to work the GH Riv Mine in X-opolis for a bit, to finish off both the Work Boat and the Spy. The sooner that we complete our Spy, the longer it will have to sit in City 4 and the cheaper that it will be to steal Theology. Follow that.

I used to think "yes," but given Folket's awesome idea of capturing and Liberating Cities to a distant AI to secure an AP win, I now believe that it's better to refuse such a Request/Demand. Okay, unless I hear otherwise, I will refuse all requests for Alpha, but not other techs.

Keep exploring eastward, please. At the start of the game, we wanted to explore eastward, but couldn't find a path that way. Now that we have a path, we want to head as far east as we can. That way, when we unlock Caravels, Circumnavigation can come in a shorter period of time. Good with that.

Here's what I'm thinking:
National Epic + hopefully Chopped Great Library in Amsterdam
Moai Statues on Triple Fish Island

I'm still waiting to understand what neilmeister meant by having more options by settling 1N of the P Sheep.

The only things that I can think of is that settling 1N of the P Sheep gives us more Coast squares to work over time and maybe better fog-busts to prevent Barb Galleys from appearing in the area. Those reasons could be sufficient to settle 1N of the P Sheep if we want to. There would be an extra in-culture and another out-of-culture forest to chop, allowing faster granary and lths (but it would mean a slower bringing iron on line).



Hmmmm. City 4 should be doing something like:
Completing the Warrior
3-pop-whipping the northern Fish City Settler That's a poor city. Refresh my memory as to its purpose. A city 1SE of horses looks significantly better, not to mention an Iron City.
Building a Scout with overflow Hammers
Whipping a Spy, to give it time to accumulate 5 turns of stationary bonus
Building a Scout with overflow Hammers
Whipping Cats/Scouts until we're down to Size 1

I don't think that there's time for a Barracks. But you're sure our former scouts are going to stick around to be repeatedly pummeled by our cats?

Do we want Horse City? That a remarkably good question. Can we defend it?

Surfin' Turf is probably going to do something like:
Archer -> capture overflow Hammers in the Settler
Probably build a Cat for a turn to grow the City a bit before whipping the Settler
3-pop-whip the Settler
Build a Scout with overflow
Regrow to Size 5 while slow-building a Scout
Whip the Catapult sometime at Size 5, either when we just grow there or preferably when we're about to grow to Size 6 but don't quite hit Size 6



Angkor Wat costs 500 Hammers
It might end up being preferable to build Temples and hire one or two Priests over time than to wait that long. To be revisited.

There's also the chance that we could spawn a Great Prophet from City 4 later. Good point.

Cats ASAP, yes, but Axes/Swords aren't an immediate priority, as we first want Drill III Cats and City Raider III Cats and only then will need to start paying Unit Costs for an army of metal units. Can you give an approximate turn # for when Shaka's army will show?

Crossbows won't be happening as our tech path is going to be:
Construction -> Aesthetics -> Literature -> Music -> Paper -> double-Lightbulb Education -> Lightbulb Philosophy if we haven't obtained it from an AI -> try to get Metal Casting and maybe Machinery in trade from Mansa otherwise self-tech them -> try to get Compass from some AI, otherwise self-tech it -> Optics -> Liberalism for Astronomy

Literature = Heroic Epic, National Epic, Great Library
Music = Great Artist to launch a Golden Age to get our Great Scientists for Lightbulbing Education
Education = cheap Universities + early Oxford to make technological research occur insanely fast


Clues
What is it with our terrible luck? That's 3 out of 3 non-obsoleting tasks.

We rolled the dice on the Isabella quest and sure enough, we lost the dice roll and got a non-obsoleting task. Appears a good roll to me. It's doable fairly soon and probably before one of the other tasks we'll have to manage.

I want to see an easier, but obsoletable task already. Wouldn't think there would be an easier one for Isa.

Can we please buy Elizabeth #2 now? E#2 is not likely to be that early, so question the immediate need. Aren't you just speculating that an obsolete task is going to be an early task? I'm still for C#1.
Suggested Next PPP
Settle Triple Fish Island -> doing so can help with figuring out the bonus Flasks in the test game
Call the City whatever you want
Work the PH Mine in City 6
Build a Granary in City 6
Perform the 133-Gold gift procedure for Willem

Which clue to ask for?
Cactus Pete = Catherine #1, to plan our end game
Dhoom = Elizabeth #2, to get possibly the earliest-to-obsolete task; our end-game probably has to wait until after Astronomy and we'll need Oxford to pump our way through Astronomy, so I feel that Catherine #1 can wait until we're gifting Workers to Willem, which we have a plan to do where we'll get our Workers back immediately

See in green above.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we hope to generate a great prophet gifting city 4 does not seem optimal to me.

It's true that we'll be giving up about 60 GPP, but we'll be getting Theology in exchange, so that we can gift it to Elizabeth and she can focus on building The AP for us while we decimate Willem.

The question is... are 60 Great People Points + 280 Espionage Points worth it to secure Theology for The Apostolic Palace?

That's 812 Flasks, plus a 20% bonus to research on Paper (let's say that it's about a 17% bonus to Paper in practice), meaning another 975 * 0.17 = 165 Flasks, for a total of 812 + 165 = 977 Flasks.

Our end-game not only requires satisfying the tasks but also winning the game, and securing Theology early on is probably our best shot of victory, with an EP Cultural Victory as our backup plan in case things go sour.


If we don't whip City 4 to the ground, we aren't going to be getting enough Scouts to enact our Catapult plan. Suddenly, the whole plan falls apart, or we delay the war another 10 turns to slow-build the units that we want. Starting the war significantly later delays our end game.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played T83 but did not hit Enter, and did not road mine or move archer or make gift, pending discussion.

Advocate against spending turns roading Piscatorium's (Fish City's) mined hills, as there are forests to chop and hills to mine on the mainland and will soon be new cities' tiles to improve and roads towards them to build.

Would like to explore with archer, but seeking agreement on that.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC0800_03.CivBeyondSwordSave

Getting late. Will be back in about 8 hours.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, I'll play T83 but not press Enter, allowing you to calculate flask maximization and more discussion on whether/what clue to buy.

Sounds good.

Maybe, though, we should be sending Worker 4 1W to partial Farm the Grassland square that is 1E of Surfin' Turf. I seem to have forgotten to send a Worker toward Horse City and this Worker is probably the best one to use.

If you haven't played yet, I can make that update.
EDIT: Oops, too late. Well, we can skip Worker 4's current action when you resume the turn and then start sending Worker 4 westward starting next turn.

That's news to me. Can you give an approximate turn # for declaring war?

Roughly 10 to 12 turns from now.

We'll want:
i. 2 Spies in City 4, preferably with them having stood in place for several turns
ii. About 10 Scouts adjacent to City 4
iii. At least 2 Cats that are 2 squares away from City 4 but adjacent to the Scouts; more Cats can be added over time after the war is under way
iv. One Archer or Warrior 2 squares away from City 4

Willem will have learned Theology by then, so that requirement falls off of the list. We'll also have gifted him northern Fish City by that time, so that requirement also falls off of the list.

I would do that, but wouldn't it allow a barb axe to show up and cause problems? Not sure the rest of team is willing to risk that.

Currently, Warriors 2 and 3 are spawn-busting the area close to our Culture.

We could certainly keep Archer 1 on the TH Deer For for now, if you'd like, to spawn-bust the area to the south of Horse City, so that Horse City can be settled safely.

It's not really important for us to see Willem's empire.

Okay, unless I hear otherwise, I will refuse all requests for Alpha, but not other techs.

Please refuse Requests/Demands for both Alphabet and Monarchy.

That's a poor city. Refresh my memory as to its purpose. A city 1SE of horses looks significantly better, not to mention an Iron City.

Northern Fish City is Willem's future capital. We can only gift him Workers that we place inside of his capital. Recapturing the Workers from there is significantly easier than recapturing the Workers from Amsterdam.

But you're sure our former scouts are going to stick around to be repeatedly pummeled by our cats?

Positive.

That a remarkably good question. Can we defend it?

I suppose that that's what Archer 1 is going to do... first, he can stay on the TH Deer For to spawn-bust and then after settling the City we can send him to Horse City while Warrior 2 adjusts his spawn-busting position given our fog-busting from having settled Horse City.

Can you give an approximate turn # for when Shaka's army will show?

In the test game, with Impis and Chariots being gifted to Sury early on, he showed up at T98, but he didn't declare and just danced his army back and forth, even though he was in "hands full" mode toward us from me having made him Furious toward us and Friendly toward Willem and Isabella. That was in an alternative version of the current test game. That's about as good of info as I have to offer.

E#2 is not likely to be that early, so question the immediate need. Aren't you just speculating that an obsolete task is going to be an early task?

No, BSPollux said that some tasks would obsolete, so it is important to learn them early.

Given that Elizabeth #1 and Isabella #1 do not obsolete, it stands to reason that Elizabeth #2 is one such task which will obsolete sooner than later.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Advocate against spending turns roading Piscatorium's (Fish City's) mined hills, as there are forests to chop and hills to mine on the mainland and will soon be new cities' tiles to improve and roads towards them to build.

Fair enough. We might as well Move 1NE next, then, so that we'll be on the west side of the island when finishing our 3rd Mine and thus needing to be picked up by our Galley.

Would like to explore with archer, but seeking agreement on that.

I think that you made a good case for leaving him on the Deer to help with spawn-busting until Horse City gets settled.