SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Jan 7, 2010
    Katarina #1 är bara smärta, låt oss göra Katarina #2.
  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    The beginnings of a PPP
    Technically, we could play from a plan like this, but it's probably going to be good to parse the info here, as well as the suggestions already made (selling Meditation to Louis for his World Map) into more of a turn-by-turn-reminder type of PPP, at least for the bigger-picture items.

    The Worker actions and City builds don't really need to be spelled-out on a turn-by-turn basis, so we could even keep most of the info as written, but it might be good to simplify some of it, with the explanations and reasoning taken out to make it easier to play from.

    Western Theatre
    Warrior 3 is fully-fortified on a GH For square, so we might as well leverage that fact and keep him there.

    What we can do is move our Archer + Catapult 1W.

    That way, if Willem's Chariot attacks any of our units next turn, either his Chariot will die or our units can gang up on him.

    Assuming that 2 of our units survive, one should go on the GH For and the other unit should go 1N of there.

    Or, if Willem runs away, our Archer should join our Warrior on the GH For and our Catapult should go 1N of there, to form a blockade.

    Willem's units would then have to funnel their way past Hippos through Forested land, taking away his Chariots' ability to move quickly across terrain and giving us plenty of time to deal with incursions.

    Warrior 2 can make his way through Shaka's territory toward Hippos, probably eventually ending up on the TH For that is 1NW of our G Riv Horse, to "plug that hole" between the Peaks.

    City 4 Theatre
    Warrior 6 should garrison City 4, but Willem's Scout is in the way, so wait 1 turn and let Willem's Scout who is 1N of Warrior 6 move away, then Warrior 6 can head toward garrisoning City 4.

    Meanwhile, our Chariot 1 can head westward to join our western blockade.

    We can send our Warrior 5 to garrison one of our 2 Great-Person-generation Cities, probably Surfin' Turf (the other City being X-opolis).

    Catapults 5 and 6 can make their way to the GH Riv Mine that is 2S of City 4 where the other Catapults are located.

    Each turn, ensure that each Catapult on that square with movement points available attacks a Scout to the NE of there.

    Whipping vs Specialists
    Realistically, we'll generate 3 Great People from X-opolis and Surfin' Turf, while the other Cities will be free to whip and won't be hiring Specialists.

    A possible exception could be Piscatorium, but we're thinking of keeping open the option of generating a Great Prophet there at 100% odds.

    So, what we could do is have Athens (Fur City) grow to Size 4, 2-pop-whip the Worker, overflow into a Confucian Missionary, whip the Confucian Missionary, then spread Confucianism to Piscatorium.

    Piscatorium can whip a Temple and thus will be able to hire a Priest Specialist during the Golden Age.

    Meanwhile, we could have Gems City whip now at the ideal time, whipping the Barracks that Cactus Pete worked so hard in which to preserve its Hammers. Then, we can overflow into building a Chariot from there.

    Hippos could also slow-build Chariots, as well as Chop into Military Units (perhaps we'll have Iron by the time that our first Chop is done and we can build a Spearman).

    As for City 4 it gets stronger the larger it grows, but we also need more Catapults. So, we should probably plan to 2-pop-whip a couple of Catapults out of there each time that it reaches Size 4. We have a large amount of Whipping Unhappiness room available to us in City 4.

    Hereditary Rule
    Let's plan to switch into it next turn, on T100.

    I suppose that we might as well tech Calendar next, if for no other reason than to sell/give it to Elizabeth so that she can trade us a Spice Resource soon and so that she can potentially build MoM for us.

    X-opolis: Grow as quickly as possible while building Warriors to act as its own Military Police units. Work 2-Food squares instead of Mines except in a case where we need to work a Mine in order to finish off a Warrior in order to avoid growing into Unhapppiness.

    Gems: 2-pop-whip the Barracks -> Chariot -> Odeon. Besides the 2 Gems Mines, focus on working the G Riv Cottage, then growth by working G Farms, but if Surfin' Turf needs to steal a G Farm, let Surfin' Turf steal that Farm and work the GH Mine instead

    Surfin' Turf: Focus on growth, so switch the GH Mine -> G Riv Farm, then work Farms as a priority, followed by Coast squares, and only work a Mine if we need the Hammers to finish off a Warrior for Happiness. Build Odeon -> Warriors

    City 4: Switch to building a Catapult and focus on growth... we could even click on the Emphasize Food button here, 2-pop-whipping Cats as soon as we reach Size 4

    Athens: Grow to Size 4, 2-pop-whip the Worker, build a Confucian Missionary, 1-pop-whip it, build a Warrior, then build the Odeon. We can probably delay completing the Worker so as to accumulate a bit more overflow Hammers, since the City is low on Unhappiness and our Galley 1 is probably going to be busy sending a 2nd Worker toward the Iron Resource

    Piscatorium: We can 1-pop-whip a Work Boat after putting 1 turn of Hammers into it, then can plan to whip the Lighthouse, then build a Warrior, then dump Hammers somewhere, say, into a Forge, until Confucianism gets spread in the City, then choose between Confucian Temple or Forge -> Confician Temple, depending upon how large the City has grown and when it is looking like we'll have X-opolis and Surfin' Turf large enough to launch our Golden Age

    Hippos: Start slow-building Chariots. Once we reach Size 3, if we don't have the G Riv square Farmed yet, we can 1-pop-whip whatever Military Unit we are currently building, then keep building more Chariots, or Spearmen once we have hooked up our Iron

    Sleepy Sheep: Build Granary -> Archer -> Lighthouse. With the City located where it is, it's probably worth spending a few extra Hammers in an Archer rather than building a Warrior

    W1: Pasture the Sheep -> Road the Sheep -> Mine the Iron -> Road the Iron
    W2: Road the GH that is NW + W of City 4, then road the GH Riv For that is SW of there (3W of City 4) -> Road the G Riv that is SW of there (2N of the Lake) -> Road SW of there on the Grassland that has the "FORT?" sign on it (1NW of the Lake)
    W3: Move to the GH Riv (NW + W of the G Cow) and Road it -> Move 1NW of there to the GH For (where Warrior 3 is currently located) and Road there -> Farm the G Riv that is 1NW of the G Cow unless Willem is causing trouble in the area
    W4: Road the TH Deer For -> Move 1S TH For (1S of the TH Deer For) and Chop -> Move 1E T For (1S of the TH Deer For) and Chop
    W5: Move to the GH Road that is 1SW of Gems City (1NW of the Wheat) and partial Mine for a turn -> Board Galley 1 when Galley 1 is located NE + NE of Gems City -> Unload on the Iron
    W6: Move 1N G Cot (2W of X-ops) and partial Road -> Move to the G Road that is 2N of there (NW + NW of X-ops) and Farm -> Move to the G that is 1S of Surfin' Turf and Farm
    W7: Once it gets whipped out of Athens (either when it's about to become a 1-pop-whipping action or when Galley 1 is available to pick it up) can load into Galley 1 and then unload in X-ops -> Mine the GH Road that is 1SW of Gems City

    Diplo Policies
    I'd say that they can stay the same, except that if someone Demands/Requests our World Map, we give it to that AI, and then on that turn, plan to sell our World Map to everyone except for Willem (since we won't want to make Peace with Willem :p)

    Techs and Tech Rate
    Probably 0% for a turn, then switch to Calendar and go 100% to learn Calendar, then we can switch our Espionage Weights to 1 on Willem and 0 on everyone else, then probably put 2 turns at 100% Espionage into Willem, while also going 100% Gold when needed. We can dump our overflow Flasks into Compass.

    The hope is that we'll be able to steal Machinery from Willem, but stealing a tech wastes all Flasks that you invest into that tech, so we don't want to put any Flasks into Machinery ourselves.

    Then, we can work on self-teching Compass with Binary Science and hope that our Spies are ready to steal Machinery. If we need somewhere to dump Flasks after learning Compass, those Flasks can go into Printing Press.

    When Mansa is 1 turn away from learning Philosophy, we can probably sell him Literature and then on the following turn, trade him Music + Metal Casting for Philosophy.

    We don't want to delay the Philosophy trade for fear of Mansa starting to build Angkor Wat, which would prevent us from from getting Philosophy in trade from Mansa.

    Once we have Lightbulbed Education, we'll need to finish Research on Optics (requires Machinery + Compass) and Liberalism, in order to Liberalise Astronomy.

    On T100, when they can move, send them to New Amsterdam, in hopes of being able to steal Machinery. We won't get nearly as good of a discount as we did on Metal Casting, but it will still be cheaper to spend Commerce on EPs than to spend the Commerce on Flasks.

    Of course, our Spies may get caught and die or else might fail in their Steal Tech Misison, in which case we can hope that Mansa went for Machinery after we sold him Metal Casting for Philosophy and then get Machinery in trade, probably for Calendar + Compass.

    Who has time to play a turnset?
    So, who is up next? The-Hawk still seems to be busy (or at least hasn't landed in the thread yet) and Htadus doesn't seem to be on our roster anymore, so we're probably looking for a volunteer at this point.
  3. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Well, we still need to be able to push the game forward. I'll continue as the Active Player until someone steps up. I can play some more turns in roughly 9 hours from the timestamp of this message.
    EDIT: I've had a slight delay due to real life but will be playing a few hours after the planned time.

    The big tasks for this next turnset are:
    - Grow X-ops and Surfin' Turf as large as possible, in preparation for the Golden Age
    - Do our best to get Philosophy in trade from Mansa, to make the Golden Age GPP-generation effort even more efficient
    - Get Confucianism to Piscatorium so that we can build a Temple there, in preparation for the Golden Age, so that we can hire a Priest there during the Golden Age
    - Do our best to get a semblance of an army from our other Cities
    - See if we can steal Machinery from Willem once he learns it
    - Create all of the Warriors that we think that we'll need for the next little while before the Iron gets connected... it won't be long before we have our Iron connected, so there's a short amount of time to get additional Warriors built. For example, Piscatorium and Athens might build a couple of Warriors each, to better benefit from Hereditary Rule, as those Cities have been or will be whipping a lot and will be low on Happiness

    I'm thinking that once we get a Mace, it can join with our first Great General and can share the XP with a Galley (the Galley should get 10 XP per Great General, allowing 3 other units to join with our first three Great Generals, saving the 4th Great General to actually join with the Galley for the last 20 XP). The Mace would then become Woodsman III and could effectively destroy Chariots and Catapults in the Forests and then retreat, gaining the bonus to attacking in Forests but not having to worry about defensive bonuses that Forests usually provide to defending units, since Chariots and Catapults don't get defensive bonuses.

    The Woodsman III Mace could also totally troll Willem by running around in his Forests, being nearly invincible on defence, and stealing Willem's Workers.
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006

    T99, 400 BC Continued
    Foreign Advisor: Louis brags about his Chariots

    We sell:
    World Map from Louis <-> Meditation

    Work Boat Captain: Exploration just got a whole lot easier! We have already even spotted the Cultural Borders belonging to another AI.

    Science Advisor: Could it be Catherine?

    Work Boat Captain: No, by "hovering" our sights over those lands, we can see that it is Chinese culture.
    Spoiler :

    Foreign Advisor: The Great Wall had been built in Paris, while The Temple of Artemis had been build in Lyons.

    Domestic Advisor: Surfin' Turf focuses on growth

    Science Advisor: We have set our research to Calendar

    Military Commander: Our Catapult and our Archer are moving west to support our Warrior 3

    T100, 375 BC
    Foreign Advisor: We are now Willem's Worst Enemy. Let us hope that Mansa continues to treat Willem as his Worst Enemy, to continue to block trading between the two of them

    Historian: A Great Spy was born in the French City of Paris

    Work Boat Captain: That's odd. I can move 3 squares now. Hmmm, it seems that we have achieved Circumnavigation

    Domestic Advisor: Folket, may you be able to successfully navigate through your challenging times

    Military Commander: Indeed, we should be prepared to leverage our Great Generals soon after they are born

    X King: Willem, your forces are in disarray! If this contest were a game of Checkers, I would say "King me!" Instead, I shall just proclaim myself a King and have our people adopt Hereditary Rule for the good of our nation

    Domestic Advisor: We micro some build items to be at the top of build queues to avoid Hammer decay

    Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

    These Cities have 50 Hammers or more in build items:
    York (Elizabeth): 65 H (was 50 H)
    Madrid (Isabella): 90 H (was 72 H)
    Nobamba (Shaka): 66 H (was 57 H)
    Bulwayo (Shaka): 93 H (was 80 H)
    Timbuktu (Mansa): 265 H (was 213 H)

    Military Commander: More XP! More target practice! Lots of fun in the fields!

    Head of Intelligence: Our Spies begin making their way toward New Amsterdam

    Ambassador Milquetoast: It seems that the AIs are not hard-wired to maintain Open Borders like they are with the human player and thus Shaka and Isabella have Closed Borders with each other

    Ambassador Milquetoast: We have also noticed that at some point, Shaka had caught Willem's Spy causing trouble. That's one less Spy of Willem's for our forces to have to deal with

    Foreign Advisor: A few Diplo relations have changed
    Louis went from +5 Pleased to +4 Cautious toward us
    Shaka went from +2 Cautious to +2 Annoyed toward Elizabeth
    Isabella went from -3 Annoyed to -3 Cautious toward Shaka
    Shaka went from -5 Annoyed to -6 Annoyed toward Willem

    Here are the relative Scoreboard rankings, which can likely be attributed to changes in Attitude levels without changes in the values:

    T101, 350 BC
    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth has completed The Great Library

    Science Advisor: Unfortunately, that fact means that she could potentially trade Literature to Willem at any time

    Work Boat Captain: We get a glimpse of a Swordsman in Louis' capital of Paris. Also, note that Louis settled a City on China's landmass, which is the landmass to the start of his starting landmass
    Spoiler :

    Military Commander: Louis also seems to have an abundance of Strategic Resources, including Copper, Iron, Horses, Marble, and Stone, but only 1 copy each of Marble and Stone, thus we won't get those Resources in trade from him

    Foreign Advisor: Isabella has put a Horse Resource and 1 GPT on the trading table, while Mansa has put a Copper on the trading table. For now, Mansa still treats Willem as his Worst Enemy

    Science Advisor: It appears that Elizabeth has teched Horseback Riding

    Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

    These Cities have 50 Hammers or more in build items:
    York (Elizabeth): 80 H (was 65 H)
    Nobamba (Shaka): 105 H (was 66 H)
    Bulwayo (Shaka): 106 H (was 93 H)
    Timbuktu (Mansa): 317 H (was 265 H)

    T102, 325 BC
    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth founded her 5th City, Canterbury

    Meanwhile, Mansa founded his 8th City, Tadmekka

    Ambassador Milquetoast: It appears that Isabella and Shaka have renewed their Open Borders agreement :crazyeye:

    Foreign Advisor: Mansa has put his Pig back on the table

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Meanwhile, Shaka will trade us his Sheep, due to Willem becoming Shaka's Worst Enemy, by the looks of it due to -3 for Close Borders taking Shaka down from -6 Annoyed to -7 Annoyed toward Willem

    Foreign Advisor: Other Diplo relationship changes are
    Louis going for +4 Cautious to +3 Cautious toward us
    Elizabeth going from 0 Pleased to +1 Pleased toward Mansa
    Mansa going from -2 Cautious to -1 Pleased toward Elizabeth

    Science Advisor: Louis has learned Alphabet, but no other AI (whom we have met) gained a tech

    Work Boat Captain: Napoleon has at least 2 Galleys, 1 in Paris and one sailing around

    Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

    These Cities have 50 Hammers or more in build items:
    York (Elizabeth): 95 H (was 80 H)
    Nobamba (Shaka): 114 H (was 105 H)
    Bulwayo (Shaka): 119 H (was 106 H)
    Timbuktu (Mansa): 369 H (was 317 H)
    Kumbi Saleh (Mansa): 58 H

    T103, 300 BC
    Science Advisor: Willem traded Construction to Elizabeth for Horseback Riding, while Shaka learned Meditation

    Military Commander: Let us not forget that Horse Archers are a strong counter to Catapults... may the Spearmen and Macemen come quickly! Meanwhile, our forces have fought bravely in the fields, killing one of Willem's Chariots and thereby earning our first Great General

    Foreign Advisor: Mansa has gone from -2 Annoyed to -2 Cautious toward Willem due passing us in Score. Their Worst Enemy status will be called off! Technically, we could bribe Mansa with Metal Casting to declare war on Willem, but we need Willem to be +1 toward us when we gift our Workers to Willem and it may not be a wise idea to have Mansa spamming Military Units. Plus, we want to use Metal Casting to help us to get Philosophy from Mansa, so we'll just have to hope that they don't trade very much with each other

    Also, now that we've connected our Deer, either Louis or Isabella will take it from us, but neither of them has a Resource to trade to us

    T104, 275 BC
    Foreign Advisor: Mansa comes asking to trade World Maps, but does not beg us for them, so we politely decline. Meanwhile, Isabella comes to us with an offer of a small amount of Gold for Construction. She won't offer more than the amount that she proposed, so we take it. Everyone else who knows Math already knows Construction, anyway

    Science Advisor: We have learned how to count the dates (Calendar)

    Military Commander: I lost count of how many dates that I had as a teenager

    Science Advisor: Maybe that's why you're still single?

    Military Commander: Shut up!

    Foreign Advisor: Guys, back to business, please. Mansa no longer treats Willem as his Worst Enemy and for now, Mansa has no Worst Enemy

    Science Advisor: We should sell Literature to Mansa, even though he will only offer us his updated World Map

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka will not be happy for trading with his Worst Enemy and we might become his Worst Enemy once again

    Science Advisor: Well, Shaka doesn't have any Resources that we care about, and he won't really do much trading with Mansa anyway, so I suggest that we still make the trade. Getting a greater chance at Philosophy (using Music) next turn is too great of a prize to risk missing out on

    X King: Agreed. Sell Mansa Literature for his World Map

    Ambassador Milquetoast: But, but... oh, wait. Shaka hates Willem these days anyway. Proceed! :)

    Foreign Advisor: Mansa has given us +2 for Sharing our Technological Discoveries with him

    Ambassador Milquetoast: That fact aught to warrant some kind of an Award...

    Foreign Advisor: Well, Mansa went from 0 Cautious to +1 Cautious toward us, if that counts

    Ambassador Milquetoast: I'll take it! We're #1! :trophy:

    Foreign Advisor: (Whipsering to himself) That's not quite what I meant (it was supposed to be +1 instead of #1), but, we'll let him have it

    Military Commander: Let us send our Great General, a Warrior, and a Galley out to sea. Who will come back, no one knows...

    X King: Great idea! The Warrior can upgrade to Maceman for free later but can already start marching toward the front lines

    Military Commander: Well, it will take a couple of turns, as the units lost their movement points in boarding the Galley, but that's the idea, yes

    Foreign Advisor: Oh, and Mansa completed Chichen Itza in his capital of Timbuktu

    T105, 250 BC
    Science Advisor: Before we forget, we make the important trade:
    Philosophy from Mansa <-> Music + Metal Casting

    Historian: Great work! We just saved ourselves from using a Great Person on Philosophy

    X King: Would Mansa go to war for us?

    Science Advisor: If we were to add Calendar + 10 Gold

    X King: Hmmm, let's not

    Military Commander: Let us hope that we will not come to regret this decision

    Religious Leader: Judaism has spread to Sleepy Sheep! Meanwhile, Taoism has spread in Awdaghost and Shaka has converted to Hinduism

    Military Commander: A Hindu Apostolic Palace might not be exactly what we want to see in the future... or, it might, if we can ever stop building Warriors and growing and can muster up enough of an army to capture the nearby AIs' Cities within a reasonable time fram

    X King: Patience, my good friend. All in good time. We cannot lose track of our greater goal of Lightbulbing Education and going onward to Liberalising Astronomy

    Military Commander: In other news, Subutai, the Woodsman III Warrior with 13 XP advanced toward the front lines. Once Iron gets connected, he can become a Phalanx, then later, a Maceman. Meanwhile, the ship Queen Elizabeth now has 5 movement points, allowing it to quickly unload a Confucian Missionary inside of Piscatorium

    Spoiler :

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Along with Shaka's conversion to Hinduism come improved AI-AI relationships

    Shaka went from -2 Annoyed to -3 Annoyed toward us for trading with Mansa
    Shaka went from +2 Annoyed to +4 Cautious toward Elizabeth
    Shaka went from -5 Annoyed to -7 Annoyed toward Willem
    Shaka's new Worst Enemy is Mansa, at 0 Annoyed

    Willem went from -1 Annoyed to +3 Pleased toward Shaka
    Willem went from -1 Annoyed to -5 Annoyed toward Mansa for trading with us, Willem's Worst Enemy

    Elizabeth went from -1 Annoyed to +1 Cautious toward Shaka
    Elizabeth no longer has a Worst Enemy

    Foreign Advisor: Still, Louis has yet to meet more of our neighbours

    Spoiler :

    T106, 225 BC
    Foreign Advisor: Our opponents are expanding like mad!
    Mansa founds his 9th City, Tekedda
    Isabella founds her 7th City, Salamanca
    Louis founds his 6th City, Marseilles

    Work Boat Captain: At least Louis' City was founded in a convenient location for me
    Spoiler :

    Military Commander: We take out Willem's 3rd Chariot, but now he has a Horse Archer escorting his Settler toward Willem's targeted settling location

    Religious Leader: Ahhh, it figures. Just as we are about to spread Confucianism in Piscatorium, it spreads itself! We, we can redirect the Missionary to Sleepy Sheep, which has Judaism and thus won't have Confucianism auto-spreading there

    Ambassador Milquetoast: In an odd shift of events, we have become Shaka's Worst Enemy, while Mansa has become Willem's Worst Enemy. At least that fact prevents Willem and Mansa from trading with each other temporarily

    Foreign Advisor: The only AI who would take our Sheep is Elizabeth. Everyone else seems to have their own source or is getting a source in trade

    Science Advisor: Louis has learned how to count (Math). Also, we remembered to sell Calendar to Elizabeth (we'd held onto it in case we'd needed to sell it as a monopoly tech to Mansa for Philosophy, say, had Mansa Demanded/Requested Metal Casting or Music from us)

    T107, 200 BC
    Science Advisor: We experience the weirdest of situations. Mansa approaches us with this trade:
    70 Gold from Mansa <-> Calendar

    So, we ask if he'd care to negotiate, then ask what he wants, and he says:
    70 Gold from Mansa <-> Calendar + World Map

    We try with this trade:
    70 Gold from Mansa <-> Calendar

    and he refuses

    So, we try asking:
    What do you want to give us <-> Calendar

    And, Mansa offers:
    70 Gold + World Map from Mansa <-> Calendar

    Huh? Since he had 30 Gold last turn and he's now 1 turn from learning Calendar, we accept that last trade before he changes his mind again :crazyeye:

    Foreign Advisor: At least Willem didn't give us any negative Diplo for trading with his current Worst Enemy

    Head of Intelligence: Thanks to saving up some EPs to steal Machinery, we get visibilty of Willem's Cities.

    In particular:
    In the north, Amsterdam has 2 Archers, 1 Horse Archer, and 1 Chariot; this City also just finished completing The Colossus, so it could probably start spitting out 1 unit per turn
    In the west, The Hague has 2 Archers and 1 Christian Missionary
    In the east, Utrecht has 2 Archers, 1 Chariot, and 1 Galley
    Further to the east, Willem's Settler once again abandoned his unit (this time, his Horse Archer) to retreat, leaving the Horse Archer "locked in shock" for a turn
    Spoiler :

    Foreign Advisor: We meet Mao Zedung and he offers us a copy of his "little red book, from which we might learn something." Maybe we don't need Willem after all? ;)

    X King: Let's Open Borders with him... unless there's a Worst Enemy relationship for us to worry about?

    Foreign Advisor: There is no such Worst Enemy relationship
    Mao is +2 Pleased toward Louis
    Louis is +2 Pleased toward Mao
    Mao hasn't met anyone else (whom we have met)

    Also, he knows Polytheism and Priesthood, but not Meditation or Monarchy, so it is safe to sell him Meditation, as he already has the tech (Priesthood) which comes after that tech which can lead to Monarchy

    So, we promptly open trade negotiations with him, including:
    Open Borders
    Sugar from Mao <-> Crab
    10 Gold + World Map from Mao <-> Meditation

    Spoiler :

    And, we obtain yet another map to the next AI: Japan

    Spoiler :

    Military Commander: There are too many juicy targets! How are we ever going to take them all on?

    X King: Why bother? Forget about Domination and just focus on learning and completing our tasks for the ladies. We're well on our way to completing one task for one lady already

    Religious Leader: Fortuitous luck! Confucianism has spread via our Missionary in Sleepy Sheep!

    Foreign Advisor: Here's an update on Diplo relations. In particular, note that Mansa has become Friendly toward Isabella, although that fact doesn't really matter much in terms of tech trading; it is when Isabella becomes Friendly toward Mansa that we could see her actually trading away any tech that she learns which Mansa does not know
    Spoiler :

    Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

    These Cities have 50 Hammers or more in build items:
    York (Elizabeth): 173 H
    Ulundi (Shaka): 62 H
    uMgungundlovu (Shaka): 74 H
    Nobamba (Shaka): 180 H
    Beijing (Mao): 89 H (this City has an Aqueduct, but the other 4 do not)

    Foreign Advisor: Only Louis wants our remaining Crab and he offers Clam. He does have 3 Wheat, but one is being traded to Mao and the other surplus one is being traded to Shaka. So, we might as well take his Clam, as there don't appear to be other Resources where he would hook up an extra Resource for quite some time

    Science Advisor: Unfortunately, Elizabeth being Friendly toward Willem is really shutting us out of the tech-brokering game... it looks like they just traded:
    Civil Service + Currency + Metal Casting from Willem <-> Literature + Calendar from Elizabeth

    Although it's possible that Elizabeth simply self-teched one of those techs at the same time.

    Mao also picked up Monarchy

    T109, 150 BC
    Domestic Advisor: We're almost ready for our Golden Age... we whip a Temple in Piscatorium and both X-ops and Surfin' Turf will grow next turn

    Foreign Advisor: Elizabeth switches into Bureaucracy

    Military Commander: Warrior 2 keeps dodging NE TH For (2N of the G Riv Horse) and then SW TH For (1NW of the G Riv Horse) as Willem has a Catapult that keeps mirroring these moves

    Foreign Advisor: Mao comes offering Rice, but we don't have anything to give to him... but, Louis and Mao just stopped trading, as Louis is no longer giving away his Wheat to Mao... meanwhile, we hover over top of all 3 of Louis' Wheats and none of them have been Pillaged by Barbs.

    So, we do the following:
    Rice from Mao <-> Wheat

    Wheat from Louis <-> Deer

    Military Commander: Willem has chosen Engineering as his next tech and he has 9 turns to go on it. It seems like a good time to start advancing our four 10-XP Catapults toward the front lines (one is unpromoted but should probably take City Raider III just before attacking a City). A new Catapult will soon be built out of City 4 to take their place

    Science Advisor: Meanwhile, Mansa is 1 turn away from Horseback Riding, although we don't have anything left to trade to him (and we don't want to give him Machinery after attempting to steal it next turn)

    Domestic Advisor: We Chop out a Jewish Missionary at Sleepy Sheep in hopes of spreading Judaism to Piscatorium for a second Priest being able to be hired there after whipping a second Temple. Of course, if Judaism doesn't spread, we'll have to try to build another Missionary

    Foreign Advisor: Mao is Protective, so he has strong Archery-based units and will later have strong Gunpowder-based units

    Domestic Advisor: We will also have a little bit of extra Happiness in both X-ops and Surfin' Turf. That situation is set up on purpose, so that when we start accumulating War Weariness from fighting Willem, we won't immediately see Specialists get turned into Unhappy citizens

    Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka finally learned Alphabet, presumably through self-teching it

    Foreign Advisor: Mansa and Willem have Closed Borders with each other

    Mansa treats Willem has his Worst Enemy
    Willem treats us as his Worst Enemy

    T110, 125 BC
    Foreign Advisor: This turn was a turn for Wonders

    England built The Status of Zeus
    Some unknown AI built The Hanging Gardens

    Mansa will trade us Ivory

    Work Boat Captain: We have Met Tokugawa of Japan

    Foreign Advisor: He likes everyone who he has met (of the AIs that we have met) and all of those AIs like him, all with Pleased status... Toku has met Louis, Mao, and Shaka
    Spoiler :

    Science Advisor: Toku does not yet know Monarchy, but does know Meditation and Polytheism. He does know Aesthetics, so out of the tech choices available, selling him Literature seems to be the best option, to avoid him brokering whatever we sell to him to the other AIs whom he knows

    Foreign Advisor: After selling Literature to Toku for a small amount of Gold, we are able to get Open Borders with Toku. Remember: don't beg from an AI that we have recently met, as they're not going to give us very much, and never, ever beg from Willem

    Here's a view of the F4 TECHS screen after selling Literature to Toku:
    Spoiler :

    Head of Intelligence: It is time to try our luck with stealing Machinery. We've got a 40% discount from having a stationary Spy, which should be good enough of a discount to make it worthwhile
    Spoiler :

    Miliary Commander: We currently see these units of Willem's:
    western City of The Hague: 2 Guerilla I Archers, Christian Missionary
    eastern City of Utrecht: 2 City Defence I Archers, Galley
    northern City of Amsterdam: 1 Guerilla I Archer, 1 City Defence I Archer, 1 Combat I Horse Archer, 1 Umpromoted Horse Archer (likely just built), Barrage I Catapult, Combat I Chariot, Galley
    northern Fish City of New Amsterdam: 1 Unpromoted Archer... DO NOT capture this City
    10 Scouts to the SE of City 4... we'll need to send all of our Unpromoted Cats toward that stack... note that we won't be able to build any more Scouts once we research Compass, which we are about to learn, but that fact is probably okay
    1 Barrage I Catapult that is moving SW then NE repeatedly, following Warrior 2 as he moves SW then NE repeatedly... once we get a Horse Archer, we can take out that Catapult, but we'll have to wait for another AI (Shaka?) to learn Horseback Riding before Elizabeth will trade that tech to us, so we can just keep the Catapult "busy" for now
    1 Combat I Horse Archer that is guarding Willem's planned City location, where we have a "FORT?" sign... we should use our Spearman to kill the Horse Archer, and have a Chariot nearby to finish off the Horse Archer in case we lose

    We just upgraded Subutai into a Woodsman III Maceman for free (upgrading Great Generals is free)... and, you even get to keep your accumulated XP above 10 when you upgrade a Great General unit... he's probably best being reserved as our stack defender rather than attacking anything with him, except when we're ready to capture a City after having Bombarded it and attacked the City with our Cats, at which point Subutai can attack... later, once we have more units, we can use him more aggressively, but for now, he's going to be our primary stack defender

    Foreign Advisor: We get Ivory in trade from Mansa for a good deal
    Spoiler :

    Military Advisor: Interesting. Elizabeth seems to already want to sell Horseback Riding to us. What do we want to sell to her? Not Monarchy. The other 3 options are Music, Philosophy, and Paper.

    Science Advisor: Perhaps we should sell her Paper, to encourage her to build The University of Sankore for us.

    X King: Anyway, let's leave that point as a discussion point for the next turnset

    Domestic Advisor: I believe that we should launch our Golden Age now, after which we would slip into Caste System and Pacifism. So, before then, we'd want to do any whipping (City 4 and Gems City come to mind) before revolting

    Obviously, we would NOT want to whip in X-opolis or Surfin' Turf, as we just spent a long time growing those Cities by intentionally not whipping in them

    It's probably not whipping away the Horse in Hippos or the Iron in Sleepy Sheep, so we'd probably only whip in Gems City and City 4 before switching Civics

    Religious Leader: Worker 1 is on our Queen Elizabeth Galley and should probably be dropped off 1W on the P Riv For that is NE + E of City 4... New Amsterdam is going to be busy building a Work Boat, so we can Chop that Forest into another Catapult. After that, we can optionally pick up Worker 5, since we'll probably eventually want P Farms on the peninsula, rather than useless Cottages. For sure, though, we'll want to pick up Jewish Missionary 1 from Sleepy Sheep, so that we can unload him directly inside of Piscatorium next turn... although, it'll be too late to whip a Temple there, as we really don't want to delay our Golden Age any further (as delaying it now only delays our Oxford University date)

    Domestic Advisor: If someone wants to do some awesome whip overflow calculations and tell us how many Hammers to put into which buildings for cascading overflow Hammers into Oxford University, doing so could help us out with planning how many Hammers to put into each build item in X-opolis

    Military Commander: Most of the units have not moved this turn, although Subutai has moved and upgraded himself

    We'll want the Spearman and a Chariot or two to take on the Horse Archer

    The Catapults plus Subutai and some helper units like Archer 3, Warrior 3, and whatever Chariots are around can plan to march together toward Utrecht, hopefully attacking before Willem can get Engineering for Castles

    The new Catapult (Catapult 7 from Hippos) and new Catapults that we whip out of Gems City and City 4 can head toward the stack of Scouts to attack the Scouts. Preferably, the Cat from Gems City will not attack from across of the River but will first move to the GH Riv Mine square that is 2S of City 4 and then attack from there, as it'll only be 1 XP per attack no matter from where we attack, so no point in giving the Scouts slightly better odds of killing our Cats

    When moving our Cats, try to guard them with Subutai so that the Horse Archer doesn't take advantage of a stack of undefended Cats, which would kill 1 Cat and then wound the remaining Cats, as Horse Archers do extra damage (Flanking Damage) to Catapults that are in a stack which is not inside of a City and when the Horse Archer survives the combat, either by the Horse Archer winning the combat or the Horse Archer successfully retreating from the combat

    Flanking Damage is similar to collateral damage except that it seems to be even more powerful and can all kill Catapults, so keep that fact in mind

    Subutai is a Woodsman III unit, so he can act like a mini healer until we can get a Chariot up to 7 XP who has Combat I + Medic I, at which point that Chariot could join with a Great General on the same square as the Queen Elizabeth boat, with the Great General attaching to the Chariot in order to give the Chariot 17 XP... Combat I at 2 XP, Medic I at 5 XP, Medic II at 10 XP, Medic III at 17 XP as long as a Great General is attached to that Chariot. The other 10 XP would go to the Galley, as long as there are no other units on the same square when joining the Great General, besides the Chariot with 7 XP and the Galley.

    We aren't likely to get a Chariot with 7 XP for a while, so we can probably plan to join another Galley along with the Queen Elizabeth Galley, in order to get two 5-movement-point Galleys.

    At some point, we'll want a City to the north-west of Surfin' Turf, to allow for Galleys and a Trireme to sail through there and to be able to quickly send troops toward Willem's Cities and Elizabeth's Cities. Capturing such a City from Willem, while possible, isn't likely to work well, as his Settler keeps running away, and we'd also have to wait for him to grow the City to Size 2, which would probably take 8 or 9 turns for an AI to do, before we could capture said City.

    But, for now, we should push our army across of the ground.

    Worker 6 is in position to Road the GH For where our advance portion of our stack is standing

    Of the 3 Workers that are 1NW of Surfin' Turf, we could potentially send one or two to Chop, say, the GH Riv For that is 3N of Surfin' Turf or some of the Forests near Hippos, or to Camp the Fur by Hippos, which would give us +1 Happiness now that we've traded away our Fur for Ivory

    We could build War Elephants with Forest Chops while we're busy running Caste System

    Hire 100% Great Scientists and only switch to Great Merchants if our first Great Person out of X-opolis is a Great Scientist... ideally, we'll get 2 Great Scientists and 1 Great Merchant.

    After the Golden Age is when we can massively whip X-ops and Surfin' Turf, so it may make sense to start putting in at least 1 turn worth of Hammers into multiple build items, be they Buildings, a Settler, a Maceman, etc, so that many build items can be whipped, one-per-turn, after the Golden Age is over.

    Since it's a complicated turn, whoever plays next could just plan to play this turn, then leave at least 1 unit unmoved or unfortified, then upload for verification/suggestions. That said, I think that it's not that complicated... whip in Gems City and City 4 before revolting, hire a ton of Scientists in X-ops and Surfin' Turf, and you should be good to go, without necessarily even needing a review of this turn, but with a lot of moving pieces... trading something (Paper?) to Elizabeth for Horseback Riding (so that we can actually unlock War Elephants and the odd Horse Archer to kill off enemy Catapults effectively)... launching the Golden Age and timing the Civic switches... figuring out where to move our Military Units so that the Horse Archer doesn't get tempted to attack our Cats/Workers that we leave undefended, etc... it would be your choice as to whether to upload again for feedback, after which the Golden Age would mostly be straightforward to play out, probably only needing to fire a Scientist or two when X-opolis or Surfin' Turf get close to running out of Food in their Food boxes.

    Once our Queen Elizabeth Galley is done dropping off Workers and our Jewish Missionary, it should make its way toward Willem's area... probably moving via the north since we have so many movement points and no clear plan for when we'll get our City built for our canal (that City will probably get built with a Settler that gets whipped after our Golden Age is over, which will be a number of turns from now). It would be nice to be able to drop off a couple of troops (say, a War Elephant and a Maceman, or something like that) on top of Willem's Horse Resource, so that we can Pillage it

    Anyway, someone else really has to take the game from here. I'm available to answer questions, but someone else has to be the one to play.

    Link to the REAL saved game
  5. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Jan 7, 2010
    Har haft ett par kaotiska veckor då min arbetsgivare gick i konkurs. Jag gillar idén med woodsman tre på en morgonstjärnaman. Jag hoppas på att komma loss snart så jag kan bidra igen.
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    We didn't move our 3rd Spy into New Amsterdam yet in case we want to run an Espionage Mission this turn or next turn with the Spy that is already in New Amsterdam, as your odds of getting caught when performing a mission will increase if 2 or more Spies are on the same square as each other. So, let's say that we want to perform an Espionage Mission next turn, when the Spy in New Amsterdam has the full 50% stationary bonus. Only after performing that Espionage Mission should our nearby Spy move in to the City, to begin accumulating its stationary bonus.

    Earlier, we had been using multiple Spies, since the missions were quite important (steal Metal Casting and steal Machinery), but whatever Espionage Mission we run next probably won't be a very high priority one and it is okay if it fails... we might even just run the Counter-espionage Mission, to prevent Willem from causing mischief, such as Sabotaging a key Resource of ours at an inconvenient time (i.e. when not enough of our Workers are in the area at the time). It's a nice Espionage Mission to run as there's a 100% chance of success and we'll just be barely at +1 in terms of Diplo Attitude with Willem after the war, so we really don't want to take further Diplo Attitude reductions with Willem.

    The Spy that got returned to X-opolis might as well return to the G Riv Cottage next to New Amsterdam, to await his turn to move into New Amsterdam, which would be right after the next Spy performs an Espionage Mission or right after that next Spy gets automatically caught and instantly dies.

    Even if all we end up running are Counter-espionage Missions, those Missions are quite effective. Meanwhile, we then have a Spy in place in case a different Espionage Mission becomes needed... it's easy to collect the EPs by using the Commerce slider; the tough part is the advance planning of getting a Spy there in the first place. By planning ahead and putting a Spy in place, you're ready if an opportunity presents itself... in this case, it might be for stealing Engineering from Willem, which would give our units a nice speed boost via Roads.

    World Map
    Earlier, I suggested that if an AI Demands/Requests our World Map, we give it to that AI and then sell our World Map to all of the other AIs.

    Now I'm thinking that yes, we should give in to the Demand/Request, but we shouldn't sell our World Map to others... with so much of the map revealed, we could open up Foreign Trade Routes between the AIs that we might not want opened, and we would give them info about where to find their peers, while its better to have less AIs meet each other, to keep tech-trading down to a minimum.

    Even if we give our World Map to one AI, there's no guarantee that said AI will sell it. For example, some AIs won't have Paper, while others will only sell their World Map to AIs toward whom they have a certain Attitude threshold, and then an AI would have to randomly choose to trade their World Map with another AI. So, it's probably best to just keep our World Map to ourselves as much as possible, only giving it out when Requested/Demanded.
  7. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2001
    Tuckasegee, NC
    Just got back in town and have read thread quickly but not yet looked at save. Great progress!

    From reading, have two quick questions:

    Dhoom states that we must make sure that E does not have a luxury resource so we can gift it to her, but clue states that we can ignore any luxury resources that E already had. Please clarify.

    Several turns back Dhoom's plan mentions partially building a scout and warrior to eventually whip. I thought that if you whipped anything costing less than 30 hammers that you could not get any more than the cost of the whipped entity in overflow -- that is, we could get no more than 15 hammers in overflow. Please clear up my confusion here too.
  8. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    You are right. I misread the clue. If Elizabeth has a Resource, such as Clam, we don't need to gift it to her.

    So, it sounds like Elizabeth #3 is about ensuring that Elizabeth has access to all of those Resources either from her owning them or from us gifting those Resources to her.

    But, a subtle yet tricky point exists. If, say, Mao is trading his Wine to Elizabeth, we can't trade a Wine to Elizabeth, so we would then either have to capture a City with access to Wine and gift that City to Elizabeth or we would have to disrupt that trade.

    We're already close to getting our 2nd Great General, so I think that sticking with Elizabeth #1 will be the easiest approach to follow.

    We might never want to capture Mao's Cities, as juicy as they look, if we can win the tech race (to unlock the techs that one of Catherine's tasks require) sooner without said conquest.

    If we were to say, create the Queen Elizabeth boat, use it ourselves, conquer Elizabeth down to 1 City, get a Cease Fire with Elizabeth, get Open Borders with her, gift her the Galley (not upgraded to a Galleon), then have 2 nearby Triremes, we could gift her the Galley, then immediately declare war on her and capture her last City... actually, we wouldn't even need the Triremes if we didn't worry about what her Galley did for 1 turn while we unloaded our troops adjacent to her City, and possibly for 1 more turn while we Bombarded.

    If, on the other hand, we went with Elizabeth #3, there would definitely be the need to take on Mao or another distant AI who has Wine, in order to secure some of the Resources, in addition to probably conquering most of Elizabeth's Cities so that she won't have enough Resources to trade away in order to get those AIs' Resources in return.

    If our Queen Elizabeth Galley dies, we might have no choice, but otherwise, it seems like it could be quicker to just go with Elizabeth #1.

    Spoiler long answer :
    At least in BtS with BUFFY, any Hammers that would not overflow get converted into Gold.

    If you put 1 Hammer into a Warrior, 1-pop-whip that Warrior, and you don't have any Hammer-multipliers in your City (no Forge, no Police State, etc), then you will have 1 + 30 = 31 Hammers in the Warrior. At the end of the turn, 15 Hammers will be used to complete the Warrior, while a maximum of 15 Hammers will overflow. The remaining Hammers will get converted into Gold.

    So, in this case, we'd get:
    - A Warrior
    - 15 overflow Hammers
    - 1 Gold

    Here's an example from the Event Log, as parsed by the saved game submission page:
    Turn 91, 600 BC: X-opolis can hurry Confucian Monastery for 2&#8692; (population points) with 34&#8484; (Hammers) overflow, 4&#8500; (Gold) added to the treasury, and +1&#8676; (Unhappiness) for 23 turns.

    Toss in a Forge and the numbers get hard to calculate, but I did some testing and the game seems to be "fair" about it. Specifically:
    Put 1 Hammer into a Warrior in a City with a Forge
    1-pop-whip the Warrior
    I'm assuming that you'll see 1 + 37 final Hammers
    But, how many Hammers will overflow, since only base Hammers overflow?
    Well, a Warrior costs 15 and the Forge has a 1.25 multiplier, so the answer is likely 15 / 1.25 = 12 overflow Hammers

    On the following turn, 12 base Hammers get multiplied by the Forge's bonus. Assuming that you make 1 Hammer from the City Centre, that will give you (1 + 12) * 1.25 = 16 final Hammers, aka, giving you a full Warrior on the following turn

    As for how much Gold you'd earn, probably something like:
    15 - 1 = 14 Hammers needed to complete the Warrior
    14 / 1.25 = 11.2, so we'd round up to 12, meaning that you'd "lose" a base Hammer here
    We also saw that 12 base Hammers would overflow

    We have 1 + 30 base Hammers

    ( 1 + 30 ) - 1 - 12 - 12 = 31 - 25 = 6 base Hammers that will get converted into Gold

    I said that the game is "fair" because it gives you the Forge bonus on those Hammers, which is the same thing that building Wealth does.

    So, you would earn 6 * 1.25 = 7.5 Gold, rounded down to 7 Gold

    The "unfairness" comes from the fact that we only got 7 Gold instead of 7.5 Gold, and the fact that we had to "use up" 12 base Hammers to finish off the Warrior, even though we only needed 14 final Hammers, due to 1 Hammer already existing in the Warrior, but in order to earn those 14 final Hammers, it still costs more than 11 base Hammers, so the game must use a whole number, aka 12 Hammers.

    Thus, we technically lost 0.8 Hammers and 0.5 Gold, but otherwise, we got our Warrior, 7 Gold, and 12 base overflow Hammers that will work out to 15 final Hammers going into the next build item (which could very well be another Warrior or a Scout).

    Since we have been growing 2 of our Cities, we haven't been aggressively whipping Cats, which means that we currently have too many Scouts... we should have as many as 10 Cats "training" at a time... we can remedy this situation after the Golden Age with some massive whipping.

    That said, ideally, we'll plan out several Buildings and Units in X-opolis which will give us maximum overflow when whipped, so that we can chain-overflow Oxford University's completion to within the span of a couple of turns.

    Any test game where we have Bureaucracy and a Forge and similar levels of techs could be used here, as well as a Great Person to launch a Golden Age, to ensure that we have the correct numbers. Playing with an older version of our test game would make it easier to figure out which squares to work in order to earn the correct amount of Hammers.

    But, going from paper-based math, one example might be:
    Confucian Temple = 80 Hammers
    80 / 1.75 = 45, which is more than 30 H (the base Hammers earned from 1-pop-whipping) but less than 60 H (the base Hammers earned from 2-pop-whipping), so it would be a 2-pop-whippable item

    1-pop-whipping would earn us
    30 * 1.75 = 52.5 Hammers

    So, we'd want to make sure that there are at least 53 H (54 H to be safe, unless we test it) final Hammers required to complete the Temple, so that 1-pop-whipping BARELY won't give us enough Hammers to complete the Temple, meaning that the game will force us to 2-pop-whip, but will give us a lot of overflow Hammers for doing so.

    80 - 54 = 26 final Hammers needed

    Let's say that we made, I don't know, City Centre = 2 H, Deer = 3 H, Fur = 2 H (don't forget that there are extra Hammers in the Golden Age), plus an optional 4 H from a GH Riv Mine (although that citizen really should be a Specialist, so let's ignore the Mine).
    2 + 3 + 2 = 7 base Hammers
    7 * 1.75 = 12.25, floored to 12 final Hammers

    We wanted roughly 26 or less Hammers
    2 * 12 = 24, which is close to 26 but still less than 26

    So, we could put 2 turns into building the Confucian Temple during the Golden Age, with the assumption that we'd be completing our Forge before the Golden Age, which is actually an incorrect assumption.

    So, now we need to do some of the math again, since we will only be getting:
    7 * 1.5 = 10.5, floored to 10 final Hammers per turn during the Golden Age

    Or, if we switched the Fur to a Specialist, we'd only earn the base Hammers from the City Centre square + the Deer, giving us 2 + 3 = 5 base Hammers
    5 * 1.5 = 7.5, floored to 7 final Hammers per turn during the Golden Age

    So, if my conservative math was wrong above and we can actually put 27 final Hammers into the Temple while keeping it 2-pop-whippable after we whip the Forge, then we could work:
    Deer + Fur for 2 turns for 2 * 10 H
    Deer without Fur for 1 turn for 1 * 7 H
    Giving us 10 + 10 + 7 = 27 final Hammers, which could potentially be the ideal number of Hammers for maximizing whipping overflow from the Temple

    But, this type of math is ridiculous to do on paper, especially since it's not clear where the flooring of numbers happens, so we'd use a test game to try it out.

    The key point to keep in mind is that we'd earn final Hammers in build items before building the Forge, but the Forge would be the first build item that we would whip and complete after the Golden Age is over, so we'd earn the Forge's bonus when whipping all other build items.

    Another subtle, but not as important detail, is that the Forge itself steals some of your overflow Hammers, so a Forge is generally not the best build item in which to carry-forward overflow Hammers.

    Since we have Bureaucracy, this effect is somewhat reduced in the capital, so we could still overflow from the Forge; we just will get what you might not expect in terms of benefit from our overflow Hammers.

    Consider our example with the Warriors...
    No Forge = 15 Hammers overflow
    With Forge = 15 / 1.25 = 12 Hammers overflow

    What's different with the Forge is that the bonus Hammers earned when you whip do not get the Forge's bonus, but when the game divides the final Hammers by the base Hammers, it uses a bigger divisor (due to the Forge now existing) and when you divide a number by a bigger divisor, the answer is a smaller number.

    No Bureaucracy
    We've put 50 base Hammers into a Forge
    120 - 50 = 70 Hammers are needed to complete the Forge
    2-pop-whipping: 2 * 30 = 60 Hammers
    3-pop-whipping: 3 * 30 = 90 Hammers
    60 < 70 < 90
    So, we need to use 3 population points for whipping
    We go ahead and whip
    In this example, to keep the effects of earned Hammers somewhat separate from the discussion, we'll say that we're only earning 1 Hammer this turn, from the City Centre (then, say, we're working Wheat + Cottages)
    So, we have 50 (already existing) + 1 (City Centre) + 90 (3 * 30) whipped Hammers going into the Forge
    50 + 1 + 90 = 141 final Hammers
    Now, if we'd whipped a different 120-Hammer build item instead of a Forge, we'd need 70 / 1 = 70 final Hammers to complete the build item
    1 + 90 - 70 = 91 - 70 = 21 final Hammers would not be needed
    21 / 1 = 21, so 21 Hammers would overflow

    But, when you've created a Forge, you divide by 1.25 instead of by 1.

    I'm guessing here, but the math probably works something like:
    We'd still need 70 / 1 = 70 final Hammers to complete the Forge
    1 + 90 - 70 = 91 - 70 = 21 final Hammers would not be needed
    Yet, here's the tricky part, since we'd now have a Forge when overflowing Hammers, so we'd divide by 1.25 instead of by 1 when calculating base overflow Hammers
    21 / 1.25 = 16.8, which floors to 16 base overflow Hammers

    It's not a hugely significant amount, losing 21 - 16 = 5 base Hammers, but that's still roughly 5 / 21 = 23.8% of our Hammers lost.

    Thus, if we were to chain-overflow Hammers from several build items with the Forge being the last build item, we'd be losing roughly 24% of ALL of our overflow Hammers, which would be far more than 5 base Hammers. So, we would want to build the Forge earlier in the process, to minimize this negative effect, and it wouldn't even be a totally bad thing to get little to no overflow after whipping the Forge, except for the fact that we're time-bound in terms of how many items that we can whip and we're limited by the number of population points that we can whip, so we'd still probably try to maximize overflow Hammers from the Forge, but if we didn't do it perfectly, we wouldn't worry about it too much, as we would have lost about 24% of those overflow Hammers anyway.

    Clear as mud? Great. We should use a test game to do the math for us. :p

    Short answer: We earn Gold from excess overflow Hammers. Also, we should use a test game to figure out the exact build order for X-opolis during the Golden Age, including on which turns to work the Fur, as doing so could have a significant factor on our Oxford University completion date (a likely difference of several turns).

    Our Oxford University date could play a significant factor on our finishing date for the SGOTM.
  9. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2001
    Tuckasegee, NC
    Thanks, Dhoom. Don't think there is overflow gold in Vanilla, and generally would rather have hammers than gold.

    "have to capture a City with access to Wine and gift that City to Elizabeth" Question whether this would satisfy the condition and also wonder if Wine would be a resource we could ignore. Would like clarification from the map makers.
  10. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Well, you can rest assured that we were trying to maximize Hammers, but at least I felt good that the excess overflow Hammers weren't thrown away. There were some cases where we earned, say, 4 Gold or so, but earned far more Hammers than we would have without whipping, so overall it was a net Hammer gain.

    Unless the City was settled on top of the Resource in question, say, Wine, then the answer would be "no." We'd have to let Elizabeth's Cultural Borders expand, no nearby Cities from the original AI would be allowed to have Cultural overlap of the square (otherwise Elizabeth wouldn't own that square), and the square itself would need its improvement on it... and, good luck getting Elizabeth to rebuild the improvement if the original AI Pillages (while at War with Elizabeth) or Sabotages with a Spy (while either at Peace or at War with Elizabeth) that improvement.

    If we really wanted to go this route, we'd raze some good Cities, bring along some Settlers, then settle a City for Elizabeth on top of the Resource and then gift said City to her. Or, we'd settle a junky City ourselves on top of the Resource and later gift that Resource to Elizabeth.

    If we were to gift her Cities, then she'd already have to be down to 1 City to begin with, as, once she has 4 or more Cities, she won't accept Cities that are more than 9.5 squares away from any of her existing Cities, where diagonals count as 1.5, while horizontals and verticals count as 1.

    Plus, Elizabeth would have to be out of financial trouble, which would be hard if she had been gifted Cities in many areas of the globe.

    It's not a trivial task to set up, especially if we're simultaneously trying to tech our way to completing one of Catherine's tasks.

    Getting back to the actual meaning of your question, I think that the answer is already there:
    To me that says that "at the time of gifting her Resources, if she already has some of the Resources, which could have been obtained by any means, then we aren't on the hook for gifting her those Resources."

    A strict interpretation of that clue would allow for another AI to sell that Resource to Elizabeth, since by the definition of the F4 RESOURCES screen, Elizabeth will refuse to accept a Resource in trade from us that she is already receiving in trade and therefore she already "has" that Resource.

    So, if we could get Mao to sell Wine to Elizabeth, Elizabeth would "have" Wine, and we'd just have to make sure that Elizabeth then "has" all of the other Resources while that Wine trade is still in effect.

    I'm not sure that I understand this point. Can you clarify?

    Wine is on the list, so Elizabeth needs to "have" Wine by some means, be it her owning it via her Cultural Borders and having an improved Wine, her owning it via her Cultural Borders and having a Fort on the Wine, her being settled on top of the Wine, or her receiving that Resource in trade from any player, be it the human player or an AI.

    Thus, she can either own the Resource or receive it in trade from an AI, as both definitions satisfy the "has" the Resource criterion, leaving us to gift only the ones that she does not "have," which could be gifting her 0 Resources if we have set up trades and City gifts to her that she already "has" all of the Resources.

    It could be neat to gift our World Map to Elizabeth, let her go out and meet Mao, then set things up so that no one but Elizabeth would have a spare Resource to trade Mao for his Wine Resource... but, we'd still be at the mercy of random numbers in terms of getting Elizabeth and Mao to trade Resources with each other.

    While it would be a creative way to solve the puzzle, it would also be an unreliable method of solving the puzzle.
  11. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2001
    Tuckasegee, NC
    "I'm not sure that I understand this point. Can you clarify?" I should have premised this with: "What would be the case if E was already getting Wine from Mao.?"(You answered, despite my vagueness.) Concur that we should not rely on this happening, but could be the case that it does happen, so we might want to be in a position to take advantage of it.
  12. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

    Nov 13, 2005
    West Chester, PA
    Gents, I think you need to count me out. RL has me crushed, I simply can't keep up with the thread.

    I think I should formally withdraw from the team, seems silly to call myself a team member when I never played a turn :sad:.
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Well, reading the turnset reports is probably enough to keep you appraised of the situation when you aren't the Active Player. The discussions in between, though, are important for the Active Player to participate in.

    So, you can always pick up a turnset later on in the game when you have time again.

    I would discourage you from withdrawing.

    We've got some medium term plans for getting a Cottaged, Oxford-powered capital and solving Elizabeth #1.

    But, we're going to need people to play later turnsets when it comes time to satisfying the Isabella and Catherine conditions, as well as achieving a Religious Victory or other Victory.

    Once we've got Oxford wired, our tech pace will take off and there will be less trading opportunities, so the turnsets will mostly focus on warring while keeping our tech pace high, as well as spreading Missionaries.

    We will likely spread Confucianism to every AI capital, getting the world into a happy state (less or no Worst Enemies, less or no AI-AI warring, therefore easier Diplo).

    Then, we can spread the AP Religion (yet to be determined, but it will not be Confucianism) to isolated AI Cities, preferably to Cities that get settled on islands.

    That'll take care of a Catherine task (later-game teching) and our Victory Condition, leaving us just needing to satisfy an Isabella task along the way.

    I guarantee you that if you will have time later, there will be turnsets that you'll be able to play that won't require as much detailed micro, but will require time spent on warring while performing small side tasks (such as by spreading Religions Missionaries around the map, and doing whatever we end up needing to do to satisfy Isabella).

    Assuming an army of well-promoted Catapults, War Elephants, and Macemen being shuttled around by Galleons, the warring will be more of a "it takes time to accomplish" type of a task, rather than one which requires immense planning, and thus we'll need people who have time to pump out turnsets when the rest of us are burned out or are on vacation.
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Going by what Folket has suggested, that the first task is rather difficult to accomplish, and that it not really going to fit with our chosen Victory Condition, let's assume for now that we'll be going after the second task. We can always discuss the third task later, once it becomes known.

    For the second task, we could:

    A] set up a Galleon chain between our core Cities and Catherine's core Cities.

    B] Or, we could plan to relocate Catherine's capital to our mainland. If we relocated her capital, we'd have to declare war on her, capture all but 1 of her Cities, Cease Fire, gift her a City on our landmass, declare war on her again, capture her remaining original City, wait for her to be able to talk with us, Cease Fire again, and somehow manage to get Open Borders with Catherine after having declared war on her twice.

    That "somehow" might involve using Folket's tactic of capturing Cities from an AI and then Liberating those Cities to the AI, to amend our relationship with said AI.

    i. Capture (not raze) all but one of Catherine's Cities
    ii. Cease Fire with Catherine
    iii. Gift Catherine a City, which has our State Religion in it, as well as the AP Religion in it, and which is located on our landmass (where we'd have several core Cities that can pump out Military Units, including our Heroic Epic City and several large-sized Cities)
    iv. Optionally, wait for Catherine's Cities to come out of revolt and whip the Cities to the ground (she cares if we raze her Cities, but she doesn't care if we enslave her people :crazyeye:)
    v. Liberate all of Catherine's originally-owned Cities to her
    vi. Declare war on Catherine again
    vii. Capture (not raze) all of Catherine's originally-owned Cities
    viii. Cease Fire with Catherine
    ix. Optionally, Liberate all of Catherine's originally-owned Cities to her, particularly if several of them have our State Religion in them, so that we can get her to be our voting buddy in the Apostolic Palace Victory election (we only technically need one AI to be our voting buddy, so she could be the one)
    x. Obtain Open Borders with Catherine
    xi. Send our Military Units to her new capital. Her new capital, being located close to our empire, can receive our Military Units quickly, which would allow us to complete her task very quickly after learning the required techs

    Depending upon how easy it will be to capture her empire prior to us finishing off the last of our techs, we will be able to decide which of options A] or B] will be best for us to accomplish at a later date.
  15. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2003
    Plymouth, MA
    I know how you feel Hawk. Have been trying all week to get free to play some turns and things just keep happening. :cry:
  16. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Sep 22, 2008
    @Dhoomstriker, Re: post 750 your assumptions are correct.

    This one is really straightforward IMO. She needs to have all these resources. However she gets them. If she already has trades set up with others, then you don't need to (since you can't) give her a particular resource. You can give gift her resources as they are available or all at once; but everything from you needs to be a gift to win her heart.

    btw, when this contest started, I stated I wasn't going to be able to keep up with all the threads. I haven't been able to keep up with any of the threads. I am very grateful that BSPollux has been on top of all of them and has been supplying the answers to the questions. Plus the way he does it on page 1 was very clever and makes it best to let him reply. Every time I have checked in response to a PM, he has already answered the question.
  17. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    Subutai gets excellent odds in attacking an enemy Horse Archer, Catapult, or Chariot when that unit is on a Forest square and there isn't an Archer on the same square; Subutai can also heal quickly and gets double movement in Forests, so it can be worth it to pick off enemy units that are on Forest squares that come close to our Cultural Borders, although I wouldn't suggest sending him too far into enemy territory alone, as he could easily get overwhelmed by multiple units attacking him
  18. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Jan 7, 2010
    I did nbot read the details of the PP but I agree with the general plan. Catapults, macemans and a spearman is all we will need. Our woodsman maceman should never leave the forests.

    Our plan at the moment is a nice boat (50xp), three great people (great prophet being the problem) and industrial era units. I think this is a good plan for now. All we need at the moment is war to get xp, research and prepare for getting a great prophet. All reasonable stuff.

    I trust your PPP is in line with our overall path.
  19. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Jan 7, 2010
    I should be able to take a look at the game during the Easter break.

    As far as I can tell my time should return to normal at the 24th. That is if you consider running your own company the same as being an employee.
  20. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Aug 12, 2006
    One thing that the plan should probably do differently is delay the Golden Age by a turn, so that we can whip War Elephants out of Gems City and City 4 next turn, instead of whipping Catapults this turn.

    We might even want to whip a War Elephant out of Piscatorium, since we have a speedy Galley that can transport the War Elephant to the front lines reasonably quickly.

    That way, we can push our units forward sooner.

    It's actually faster to get XP by using the Cats on the Scouts, but we're still at the stage of the game where more City captures will earn us a faster Research pace, so I believe that focusing on capturing Cities as a priority is the better play.

    I also missed hiring a Priest in Piscatorium.

    Further, I calculated the numbers for being able to quickly whip overflow Hammers into Oxford University, but we probably want to set something similar up for The Heroic Epic in Surfin' Turf and Moai Statues in Piscatorium.

    So, the PPP needs to be re-worked somewhat, but most of the basic ideas are there and we just need to detail things a bit better.

    EDIT: See the next page of this thread.

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