SGOTM 21 - Xteam

More testing, of an option that isn't what one would initially think would be strong, yet...

1E of Cow
I tried 1E of Cow. Overall, it turned out differently from what I was expecting.

I did manage to get Alphabet by Turn 60, but that was with a bit of trickery, since it was accomplished without researching Agriculture.

I didn't have to have Agriculture, since the Wheat would come online only later, but it would have been nice to already have that tech.

Only having 2 Granaries and 1 Library (albeit a Library in the 2-Gems City) didn't leave me feeling over enthusiastic, either, and we were pretty vulnerable to Barb Archers.

Overall, I really didn't like how it played out.

The Cities just wouldn't connect to each other via Trade Networks if I settle City 2 by the Wheat + 2 Gems and City 3 at the very south of the peninsula, 1E of the Deer, which is supposedly one of the advantages of settling 1E of the Cow.

Even if I'd managed to get a Trade Network set up by settling City 3, we were just so far behind on production.

So, I'm ready to write off that line.

If someone can post a 2-Gems + Wheat capital start that looks reasonably strong, we could still consider it, but I'm currently leaning toward just being happy with 2E of the Settler's initial location.
 
I'm sorry I have not been contributing. The next two weeks are pretty hectic for me and I will just passively read the thread.

It seems to me that we are in capable hands at the moment.
 
I tried a 2 Gems/Wheat Cap for kicks.... it wasn't great.

Anyway, I prefer the approach of:
- settling 2E of settler
- Agr - Mining - BW - Wheel ..... I could not beat this
- always working the deer, even when uncamped
- finishing the warrior on t18 at same turn as pop 4, it goes and fogbusts for city 2
- starting the settler t18
- settler out on t25

I have tried Dhooms approach (except for the parts I stole) in a few different ways, and I can't find one I like better.
If we do not work the deer always, the WB is slower, meaning the warrior is not finished until the turn before we get to pop 5, but the warrior is useless as it must stay in the cap anyway at pop 5.


So, supporting my testing and my preferred settling:
- we get the second city 2 turns earlier, with a warrior already in place to fogbust/protect

I would put the emphasis on warrior fogbusting/protecting the settler already. The test game is crawling with barbs.
 
First Turnset?
Who is going to take the first turnset? I'm quite burned out from doing all of that testing and I'm afraid that I lack enough sleep to play well in a real game. It sounds like several people are away, as well.
 
Reporting in.

I see there is much to read.

Is the consensus to found the capital 2 east of the Settler's current location?
Or are we still deciding?
:shifty:

2 east is the best option based on the starting techs and food sources.

But before we do that, lets choose a start off player and have the worker check out the South coast to see if there are any seafood there. I doubt it but who knows.

I will try to catch up by tomorrow.
 
OK, I have optimised the micro from my perspective. I attach the spreadsheet, if you don't have Excel there are online versions you can use to open it.

I ended up getting Alpha on t57, with a few beakers to spare. I deliberately did not explore with the scout so as to not unfairly effect the tech rate.

- Agri (t11), Mining (t18), BW (t30), Wheel (t36), Pottery (t41), Writing (t47), Alpha (t57)
- both city 2 & 3 have fogbusting warriors arrive before them
- first Settler is strarted on t18 and out on t25, and the first city is settled t27
- only 2 worker turns wasted in all (one to first farm, one to first chop)
- 3 granaries , 2 libraries (third will finish next turn)
- 3 workers
- 2 exploring WB's, first one on t41
- Academy due on t60


edit: I just realised I got the ability for trade routes with Isabella for about 10 turns, but looking at all the auto saves, we never got an actual trade route with her, so it will not have effected the result
edit2: FYI, some of the columns on the spreadsheet have been squashed, hiding some worker actions.
 
I am happy to play the first turn, whichever way we go :)
 
@neilmeister:
Thanks for all of your testing, your detailed write-up of steps, and your willingness to step up to the plate!

I feel extremely confident with you taking on the first turnset, having looked at your high quality testing results, where you've placed the Scout for spawn-busting, and a bunch of other factors. :goodjob:
 
Graph Gazing
It makes sense that TSR is a bit ahead of most teams in terms of the amount of testing that they have done, as they will have started testing several days before the team threads opened. PD, however, was basically still forming themselves close to the sign-up deadline.

In this case, we can be pretty certain that teams who moved their Settler and researched Agriculture first and have grown to Size 2 quickly will have settled 2E (or possibly NE + E, but if a team went there, then they certainly weren't working the Deer).

PD, PR, and TSR all seem to have opened with Agriculture being learned on Turn 10, so they all must have opened with working the G Riv Wheat instead of the Uncamped Deer, either by not settling with the Deer in their big fat crosses or by choosing to work the G Riv Wheat in place of the Uncamped Deer. TSR is ahead of the others in that TSR has figured out that T14 is the crucial stopping point for that approach, determining whether to build a Warrior by T18 for starting on a Settler at Size 4 or whether to grow to Size 5 on T20 before starting on a Settler for greater total F + H + C by T30, so we can be pretty confident that TSR settled 2E.

PD and PR stopped on Turn 10, after learning Agriculture, likely as they hadn't yet decided which tech to go for next, or at least wanted to run some more tests before confirming their next tech decision.


Roster
As for the roster, when I'm heavily involved in the testing, I'm not sure that I'll have the energy for actually playing a turnset accurately.

If there's someone else who likes to perform micro in the opening turnsets, they might be better suited to playing second, with testing help from the team to figure out the best opening.

I'll do it if no one else volunteers, but I won't be at my peak performance, in terms of my physical and mental energy.
 
Ok I am all caught up. Ran some tests also just to get a feel for the game while settling 2E.

I like the second city a bit early to get the gem mine up sooner. We can have the second city settled on T24 and on T26 the cities will be connected via the capital culture expansion. Tech path was Agri, Mining and BW.

Test details are:
Spoiler :

The idea was to optimize growth and expansion while fining the optimal tech path. First test:

Spoiler :
T0: Move worker SE to hill, Scout 2W and settler 2E.
T2: Settle the Capital. Start Aggriculture. Not going to ignore the strongest tile (wheat) and start wb. Working a grass river tile. Scout is exploring just to see how long it can survive.
T4: Culture expand and start building a camp. Start using the Dear Deer tile.
T7: Camp done. Meet Suri.
T8: Meet Izzy.
T10: Capital size 2. Worker skip turn on Wheat.
T11: We learn Agri and worker start farm. Start studing Mining.
T12: Meet Bill. Recall Scout.
T13: Finish WB and start warrior.
T14: Build clam net.
T15: Capital grow to size 3. Switch build to Settler (8T)using farmed wheat, camp and clam net.
T16: Worker start a farm for city 2 on tile 2N1W of capital.
T18: Mining finish and start BW.
T22: Worker start a Mine.
T23: Settler complete and restart warrior.
T24: Founded second city and the sustainable tech rate drop from 12 at 100% to 9 @70% with 1gpt if the new farm tiles is worked or stay at 12at 80% if the lake tile is used.

Well I feel this should workout best but did not like the loss of science due to the cities not being connected. Next tried the Agriculture and TW tech path starting on T11.
Spoiler :
T11: We learn Agri and worker start farm. Start studing TW.
T13-18: Same
T19: Learned TW and start Mining.
T20: Worker stop the farm and start a road on 1NW of capital.
T23-24: Same and founded second city and the sustainable tech rate drop from 12 at 100% to 12 at 80%. Time to do binary. Worker finish the farm and the new city can use it. Mining is in next turn.

I liked that a bit better.

Next I replayed the set and allow the capital to grow to size 4 before building a settler. First using Agri, Mining combo.

Spoiler :
T0-15: Same and learning mining. Do not switch to settler at size 3.
T18: Capital at size 4 and finish the warrior and start a settler. Finish Mining and start TW. Capital is using the fur as the 4th tile. Settler is 8 turns again.
T20: Second farm done and capital use it. Scout die.
T22: Worker start mine.
T23: Barb warrior show up next to our warrior on hill.
T24: Warrior is killed by the barb.
T25: First mine is done and complete TW. Start BW.
T26: Settler done and start warrior. Worker start roading. Capital culture expand.
T27: Second city founded and culturally connected without roads. Sustainable science is 13-14bpt at 80% depending on the tile used by the city 2.


Hummm, maybe we can skip TW and delay the second city to learn BW for a earlier gem mine.

Spoiler :
T18: Start BW. This time keep both scout and warrior a bit safer. I hope.
T21: Barb archer? For real?
T22: Start a mine.
T26: settler and worker who just finished the mine heads to new city site.
T27: Second city is done and connected via culture and we are 3 turns from BW.

Ok this is not bad but it seem that we will only have 2 turns of no trade if we settle the city on T24 and wait till culture expansion to connect the cities. So I went back to the first test and continued it.
Spoiler :

T24: Settle city 2 and work the farm. Sci to 0%.
T25: Sci to 100%.
T26: Cities are connected via culture and we get 17bpt.
T29: Worker on Gem tile and ready to build a mine next turn when BW is learned.

 

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BTW, it is too early to see if we want Alpha so soon. There is a good chance that AI will have it learned not too long after we learn writing on Immortal level. I prefer heading to Lit over Alpha and Math before Lit.

If there is a need and it is during the weekend, I can jump in after Neilmeister. Just let me know.

Doesn't the fact that we know Bill mean we will know where his capital is located? I would love to see what is known on T0.
 
Dhoom, I am not that prideful, I suppose I just valued the warrior out before the settler, as I had some horrible barb experiences with the test save. I think having the option of the fogbusting warrior out before the settler is more cautious, and this is what sometims has ruined some of my previous SGOTM attempts.... not risking everything!

The extra hammers mean earlier WB, which also seems compelling as it will make up for food & commerce we forego by working the uncamped deer, but the proof is in the testing.

I am happy to go with any option, including settler at pop 3 as Htadus has tested.

Hopefully the real game will give us some clues, but what we definitely know is we want to get to the point where we pop borders.

So, I will now play the first 6 turns, moving the worker to the deer, settler 2E, scout north east. I will stop the turn we pop borders so we can compare our game to the test game to see if our assumptions are correct.
 
t0
Nothing suspicious with anything, no cities settled, no religions, no corps...
move settler 2E
move worker to deer, he sees nothing!
move scout NE

IBT
Amsterdam settled

t1
X-opolis founded
start WB, work river grass
start agriculture

t2-t3
scout exploring, finds Corn

t4
X-opolis borders pop, reveals fish
worker starts deer camp
X-opolis works wheat....
scout NOT moved yet
game paused

Screenshots
Spoiler :

















GLH is looking better and better...

Session log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3840 BC:


Turn 1, 3960 BC: X-opolis has been founded.

Turn 3, 3880 BC: The borders of X-opolis are about to expand.
Turn 3, 3880 BC: The borders of X-opolis have expanded!


BUFFY log:
Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 0/500 (4000 BC) [15-Jan-2015 17:55:21]
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [15-Jan-2015 17:55:25]
Athens founded
X-opolis begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
Research begun: Agriculture (9 Turns)
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [15-Jan-2015 17:56:24]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [15-Jan-2015 17:57:12]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
X-opolis's borders expand


Link to real save
 
The real game makes me thing we definitely want Sailing - Masonry before Alpha. GLH looks absolutely killer, and an offshore city will be the best way to help fund our expansion.

Also, what to do with the scout, we could either go exploring and try to find enough AI to make Alpha worthwhile... or fogbust, or both. I think I would favour fogbusting until either city 2 is settled or a warrior takes over fogbusting.

In order to move forward, I think it comes down to a straight vote between warrior-settler(pop 4) or settler (pop 5) first. (options C & B from Dhooms post above). I feel they are better options than settler at pop 3. We have 4 decent tiles to help settler(s) & workers.

I personally favour a warrior first, as the advantage of settler first is minimal, and therefore not worth the risk IMO.

I think I would also have the scout hang around the 2 gems spot until warrior/settler arrives, then very slowly explore.


PS. I am not done yet.... just reached a fork in the road that needs team consensus
 
City Location
Doesn't the fact that we know Bill mean we will know where his capital is located?
It's easy to have a player and an AI meet without revealing any info... the AI can be given a Lion next to our starting area and then the Lion can be deleted, and we won't see any of that AI's territory. Or, we can have a Lion created near the AI, deleted, and then the revealed squares can be hidden via the World Builder.

We can figure out where our capital is located by going to F1 -> City Info in the drop-down menu at the bottom left, and looking for X and Y, but I don't have any trick for figuring out where the AI's capital is located.


Early Writing
BTW, it is too early to see if we want Alpha so soon.
True. Alpha will be of less use to us if it's only us and Willem within contact of each other. Of course, BtS AIs send out Work Boats early, and we can do so too, thus even if we're the only 2 players on the same continent as each other, we can probably meet other AIs reasonably early on.

We are Creative and Philosophical, so our Civ SCREAMS for us to get Writing reasonably early and working on an early Great Scientist. If it weren't for the Gems being under Forests, I'd go for Writing before Bronze Working, but we need Bronze Working before Writing due to the Gems squares being so strong to work.


Alphabet?
There is a good chance that AI will have it learned not too long after we learn writing on Immortal level.
Perhaps in a typical game, but with the strong Gems Mines and hiring Scientists (because we will not stand a chance of hitting the podium if we don't get at least 1 early Great Scientist, given our Traits), we end up being far ahead of the AIs in the test game in terms of research. Writing is still tradeable when Alphabet comes in on Turn 60 or earlier in the test game.

With Alphabet being only 1 step away from Writing and us being able to delay Animal Husbandry, we can be all-but-guaranteed to get Animal Husbandry in trade... as soon as Willem researches it (which he will PROBABLY do before he even thinks about researching Alphabet), since Animal Husbandry is a non-monopoly tech and you can trade for it when an AI knows know other AIs in the game.

If we can get Animal Husbandry, Sailing, and Masonry in trade, Alphabet will have pretty much paid for itself, except that we'll also have Alphabet in hand, while we wouldn't if we self-teched those techs.

So, if we want The Great Lighthouse, Alphabet is probably a very strong play, assuming that our Work Boats can meet a couple of neighbours.

Given the fact that we'll probably Chop 3 to 5 Forests by learning Math early, I don't see 30 to 50 Hammers from Math making it a better choice than Alphabet, if we are choosing between those 2 techs on the way to Currency. Alphabet lets us build Research, if we choose to go for uber-fast Currency. As much as I like the idea of gifting Workers to Willem and stealing them back, we can probably gift him 1 Worker without warring and can give him some of the smaller Gold gifts without warring, as well.

One thing worth doing, though, is getting a Trade Network connection to Willem... the more turns of trading an AI Resources, the more they seem to offer you in total Gold from their coffers. If gifting him a City gets him to build a Road to us, then we can get such a Trade Network connection... a Trade Network connection could become even more important if he founds a Religion, so that it can auto-spread to us.

At some point, though, we'll want to take Willem's Cities with some Liberating of Cities involved, so that we can take his good Cities and get him up to being Friendly toward us with massive Liberating (probably best accomplished via 2 wars, by getting his capital close to our capital at the end of the first war, to make it easier to Liberate Cities to him--him being Creative helps a lot in terms of being able to get Liberating credit), so even if we go for early Alphabet and follow that up with Currency, doing so doesn't rule out spamming Military Units, gifting some Cities, and capturing + recapturing Cities in an order so as to manipulate where Willem's new capital gets relocated to, and then rinsing and repeating to get him up to Friendly status for better tech trading in the future.


City Settling Order
We can have the second city settled on T24 and on T26 the cities will be connected via the capital culture expansion.
For your info, if we settle City 2 at the location 2N of the G Riv Wheat, we get our first two Cities connected via Trade Routes immediately.

The strength of settling by the Cow for City 2 might be in getting the Crab connected soon, but I see you building Warriors instead of another Work Boat.

If we settle by the Cow for City 3, we should have enough Hammers to get it a Work Boat sooner after the City gets settled than we can get a Work Boat relative to the settling date by settling that location as City 2.

Meanwhile, 2N of the Wheat lets City 2 steal the Wheat when the capital doesn't need it, and allows us to get 2 Gems Mines connected pretty quickly.

I could see City 2 as a Cow City possibly working, but by making it City 3, we won't feel so compelled to share a G Riv Farm with the capital and thus can settle 1E of the Cow, getting what fog-busting makes it look like 2 more GH squares, both for additional production and great visibility of the land to the west (a Hills square within your Cultural Borders will allow you to see 2 squares away from that Hills square).

Anyway, if you want to demonstrate that settling by the Cow beats settling 2N of the Wheat for City #2, I'll be more than happy to see the results!


First Gems Mine
I like the second city a bit early to get the gem mine up sooner.
For getting the first Gems Mine online ASAP, the timing of learning Bronze Working is a more important factor than the timing of settling City 2.

As long as we have settled City 2 such that at least one Gems square will be within our Cultural Borders after we have finished Chopping the Forest, then that's the timing that will matter.

Assuming that we settle adjacent to a Gems Mine, like we can by settling 2N of the Wheat, then we can settle the City as late as T29 + however many Worker turns it takes to Chop the Forest (it depends upon how many Workers we have) and still get the Gems Mine online at the same time as having settled the City earlier.

Actually, I cheated a bit when I did the testing, since I gave ourselves Gold in order to compare the scenarios against one another... in reality, we'll probably get Bronze Working on T30 (needs to be confirmed... it's possible that without using Binary Science, we could still get Bronze Working on T29, which would mean potentially earning +1 turn of working the first Gems Mine, depending upon our Worker turns).

Bronze Working is Flask-dependent, so if we settle City 2 without Trade Routes, and Maintenance costs us 3 Gold per turn, we also have the potential of slowing down when we learn Bronze Working, which would then likely earn us less turns of working the first Gems Mine.


Tested Variants
I suppose I just valued the warrior out before the settler, as I had some horrible barb experiences with the test save.
My point was that we will still have the option to get a Warrior out before the Settler and start the Settler at Size 4 on T18 by working the Unfarmed Corn instead of the Uncamped Deer, and because of the extra F + H + C earned from growing sooner and the extra 3 Food from learning Agriculture 1 turn sooner, we end up surpassing the approach of getting the Work Boat sooner by a net +1 F and +1 C.

In other words, we keep exactly the option that you wanted open, of being able to get that early Warrior out by T18, but we will earn more F + H + C inputs overall.

We won't even have to make that decision until T14.
 
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