SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    I just did my test and documented what I did. Here it is.

    Spoiler :

    T0: Move worker SE to hill, Scout 2W and settler 2E.
    T2: Settle the Capital. Start Aggriculture. Start wb. Working a grass river tile. Scout is exploring just to see how long it can survive.
    T4: Culture expand and start building a camp. Start using the wheat tile.
    T7: Camp done and start using it. Agri due in 4 turns instead of 3. Not a problem since city will grow 1 turn sooner.
    T9: Capital size 2. Agri due next turn and Worker on Wheat. Working camp and Wheat.
    T10: We learn Agri and worker start farm. Start studing Mining. Working camp and Wheat.
    T14: Capital grow to size 3. Working Camp, Wheat and Fur.
    T15: WB complete and head to crab. Start a Settler (9T) working Camp, Wheat and Fur. Worker start a farm for City 2 on tile 2N1W of capital.
    T16: Build clam net. Settler in 7 turns working Working the Camp, Wheat and Crab net. Worker move to hill N of Cpital to start a mine
    T17: Mining finish and start BW. Worker start a mine.
    Working the Camp, Wheat and Crab net.

    T20: Worker finish the mine.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat and Crab net.
    T21: Worker restart the farm.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat and Crab net.

    T23: Settler complete and start warrior.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat and Crab net.
    T24: Founded second city (maint=-1.44gpt) and the sustainable tech rate maintained at 12bpt at 80% slider while working the lake tile. Start warrior.
    T25: Capital grow to size 4.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat, mine and Crab net. 2ndCity: Working lake. Worker to N of city 2.
    T26: Cities are connected by culture. Warrior MP is complete and start a WB. Worker start a farm for 2ndCity.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat, mine and Crab net. 2ndCity: Working farm.
    T28: Capital size 5.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat, mine, forest hill and Crab net. 2ndCity: Working farm. Stop worker building the farm.
    T29: BW in next turn so move worker to gem tile. 2ndCity culture expanded.
    Cap: Working the Camp, Wheat, mine, forest hill and Crab net. 2ndCity: Working farm.

    T30: BW complete and start AH.


    Here is the AutoLog text.
    Spoiler :
    Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
    ------------------------------------------------
    Turn 0/500 (4000 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:33:55]
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:34:01]
    Athens founded
    Athens begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
    Research begun: Agriculture (9 Turns)
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
    Work river grass tile.

    Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:35:07]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
    Work river grass tile.

    Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:37:02]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
    Work rive grass tile.
    After End Turn:
    Athens's borders expand


    Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:37:28]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:41:37]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 6/500 (3760 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:41:52]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:42:17]
    A Camp was built near Athens
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:

    Other Player Actions:
    Christianity founded in a distant land

    Turn 8/500 (3680 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:44:05]
    Player contact made: Suryavarman II of Khmer
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens grows to size 2

    Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:44:35]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Tech research finished: Agriculture

    Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:46:39]
    Research begun: Mining (8 Turns)
    Player contact made: Willem van Oranje of Netherlands
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:

    Other Player Actions:
    Confucianism founded in a distant land

    Turn 11/500 (3560 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:47:34]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:47:57]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:48:10]
    100% Research: 10 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens grows to size 3

    Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:48:41]
    A Farm was built near Athens
    100% Research: 11 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens finishes: Work Boat

    Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:52:11]
    Athens begins: Settler (9 turns)
    100% Research: 11 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:

    Other Player Actions:
    Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Willem van Oranje (Netherlands), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

    Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:54:48]
    A Fishing Boats was built near Athens
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Tech research finished: Mining

    Other Player Actions:
    Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Willem van Oranje (Netherlands), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

    Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [17-Jan-2015 12:58:46]
    Research begun: Bronze Working (14 Turns)
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:00:07]
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:00:20]
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:00:45]
    A Mine was built near Athens
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:00:56]
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:02:13]
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens finishes: Settler

    Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:02:20]
    Athens begins: Warrior (5 turns)
    100% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:02:35]
    Sparta founded
    Sparta begins: Warrior (15 turns)
    A Farm was built near Athens
    80% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens grows to size 4

    Other Player Actions:
    While defending in the wild near Amsterdam, Scout (0.43/1) defeats Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 63.8%)

    Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:03:34]
    80% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens's borders expand
    Athens finishes: Warrior

    Turn 26/500 (2960 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:11:44]
    Athens begins: Work Boat (5 turns)
    80% Research: 13 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 27/500 (2920 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:15:29]
    80% Research: 13 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Athens grows to size 5

    Other Player Actions:
    Player contact made: Isabella of Spain

    Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:15:53]
    80% Research: 12 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Sparta's borders expand

    Other Player Actions:
    Civics Change: Willem van Oranje(Netherlands) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

    Turn 29/500 (2840 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:19:09]
    80% Research: 13 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Sparta's borders expand

    Other Player Actions:
    Civics Change: Willem van Oranje(Netherlands) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

    Turn 29/500 (2840 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:20:25]
    80% Research: 13 per turn
    0% Espionage: 4 per turn
    20% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Tech research finished: Bronze Working

    Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) [17-Jan-2015 13:23:20]
    Research begun: Animal Husbandry (8 Turns)


    Here is a screen shot.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    EDIT: The latest test saved game sounds like it should represent the situation of the real game, minus any updates to geography, so you won't have to repeat those steps.

    Anyway, FYI the steps that got us to that point are:
    T4 Work the Wheat at Size 1
    T7 Work the Camped Deer at Size 1
    After growing to Size 2, work Deer + Wheat from then on until T14 (we grow to Size 3 on T14); No Fur before that time, but Fur can be our 3rd square to work on T14 except if we want to get a fast Warrior, in which case we'd work the GH For on that turn
     
  3. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Finally, I can log in. wifi at legoland malaysia suuuuucks!

    I will play out until pop 3 in about 3-4 hours working the unfarmed wheat, unless there are last minute objections
     
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    @Htadus: Was that test run which you documented the matching steps for the T30 saved game that you already provided?
     
  5. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    :goodjob:
    I'm impressed neil! :eek: Australian Lego conventions are one thing, then following up with visiting Legoland Malaysia.
     
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Here's a test game from T14, that, assuming that all goes according to plan, can be used for further testing.

    To make it easier to perform the next set of testing, signs inside of the game indicate the initial micro steps for each of the 3 main paths available to us.

    I suggest that we play test runs up until T30, for comparison's sake. Try to keep (or also upload) a saved game that comes before that point, say, T20, so that we can try other alternatives or can tweak the chosen path, say, with a different Science Rate on different turns.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    That file and the most recent test are not the same Dhoom, I am not at my computer to upload the save.
     
  8. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Turn report 4-14

    Nothing much happened, if our scout did not defeat a wolf on t13 then I could have confidently said nothing happened at all, except Buddhism was founded, but not by Willem, so that isn't really news.

    Especially as we haven't met anyone else yet, so no help fogbusting, I support growing to pop 4 at least (I prefer just 4 though), with a fogbusting warrior before the settler, so I will do some testing of this tonight to try and justify it :).


    Link to save


    Upload log.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 7, 3720 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

    Turn 9, 3640 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

    Turn 13, 3480 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Pericles's Scout (2.30)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: (Animal Combat: +5%)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: Pericles's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!
    Turn 13, 3480 BC: While defending, your Scout has killed a Barbarian Wolf!

    Turn 14, 3440 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 3.
     
  9. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Great! That means 2 separate sets of results to compare, when I can fit in some time. Thanks for clarifying!


    Great work! :cool: That's what we wanted to hear from this turnset (although meeting some AIs would have been a nice bonus).


    Did you happen to spot the direction from which it came at us? Assuming that our Scout is on one of the Gems squares, we may or may not want to risk moving 1N again if the Wolf came from the north, to better spawn-bust the area that it vacated, if it was to the north of our Scout.

    We should try to figure out if Barb Animals can spawn anymore. If they cannot, and if we're lucky that no more two-movement point Barbs exist in the area, moving 1N can be seen as a perfectly save move (since we can retreat back 1S if a 1-movement-point Barb Unit is spotted, otherwise we can stay in place at 1N).

    2-Strength Panthers come from Jungles, if I recall correctly, which we haven't spotted yet (except for possibly being revealed on the T4 Scout move, that I haven't seen yet, as I haven't looked at the latest real saved game yet), so 1-Strength Wolves are probably the scariest 2-movement-point Barbs that we can face in that area.


    As long as you have the time an inclination, I suggest that you remain the active player. These turns may seem boring to some people, as we're essentially following a pre-planned script, but they are crucial turns for getting our empire set up with a strong opening.

    For now, it's back to the testing board.
     
  10. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    The wolf was from the north, and our scout is standing on the northernmost gems, I don't think we really want to move him just yet.

    There is no jungle to be seen anywhere, and you are correct that panthers only spawn on jungle.

    I am happy to remain the active player, it has been a short set so far, and I am used to starting off the SG's, I have done it 5 or 6 times.
     
  11. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Tested settler on pop 5. I tested two variants. They are the same through turn 20, here is the turn 20 save:

    View attachment hawk 5 pop settler - turn 20.CivBeyondSwordSave

    Warrior stays in capital as MP the whole time. Warrior 2 goes to city 2 after it is settled.

    At turn 30, I am 2 turns from worker 2 being done and 7 turns from AH. 42 hammers into worker, 18 beakers into AH, 12 food stored in capital.


    Turn 30 save: View attachment hawk 5 pop settler - MP stays in cap - turn 30.CivBeyondSwordSave
    Turnset plan: View attachment hawk - 5 pop settler - leave MP in cap.zip

    Warrior leaves capital to get to city 2 site the same turn as the settler.

    At turn 30, I am 2 turns from worker 2 being done and 7 turns from AH. 42 hammers into worker, 8 beakers into AH, 3 food stored in capital.

    Turn 30 save: View attachment hawk 5 pop settler - MP leaves cap - turn 30.CivBeyondSwordSave
    Turnset plan: View attachment hawk - 5 pop settler - MP leave early.zip

    My conclusion:

    I think we can fog bust sufficiently to risk the settler going up without a warrior. To me, seems the penalty of 10 beakers and 9 food is too steep.
     
  12. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    I am good with you playing a longer set, with or without the qualification statement. :)

    @Dhoomstriker. what raw data do you need to do the comparison? I can provide that.

    Testing is such a objective thing and what make civ4 such a great game is that there are many ways to get to similar objective. Because we are settling in different locations there is no way to really compare if starting a settler at size3, 4 or 5 is better.

    I have no doubt that cow site is much better as the second city site because of its food abundance without hijacking the most powerful tile under the capital BFC. That site also harmonize with the AH tech route. Yes the 4N site will be able to work 2 gem sites but its growth will be sloooow. Or the production, with or without the whip, of the capital will be weak. (BTW we have not even discussed when we want to switch to slavery.) Both the current capital and the cow site is going to be a monster...very fast....much faster if the capital's food is not borrowed too early in the game.

    Anyways, similarly, early second city will also become stronger as long as science is not behind the worker action needs. As I said the 4 extra turns of the gem mine will take care of any deficiency we may note at turn 30.

    Having said that I will not have more time to get involved during the week, so make good decisions.

    I agree with Hawk about using the first warrior as an MP.
     
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Okay, there are several big-picture items to resolve. I'll do my best to list some of them out, but this list may end up not being exhaustive, so if you have open items that you'd like to discuss/calculate/resolve, please mention them, as well.

    A] Where do we settle City 2?
    I think that we need games to play out reasonably far... I was targeting Alphabet in our earlier comparisons. We may or may not end up teching Alphabet, but what ended up happening is that this goal let us play out a bit after having 3 Cities up, while having to balance a mix of the economy (in order to get Alphabet), production (in order to get enough Workers to Chop and Mine the Gems and Chop Buildings efficiently), and growth (in order to earn more Hammers and Commerce.

    So, if we really want to figure out where to settle City 2, we have to play out far enough to have 3 Cities somewhat set up, and then compare the results.

    The strongest results so far came from settling 2E of the Deer for City 1, settling 2N of the Wheat for City 2, then settling either 1E or 2E of the Cow for City 3 (we didn't play out far enough to see the difference between 1E and 2E of the Cow).

    So, if someone feels that settling City 2 by the Cow can compete, try to play the game out far enough to learn Alphabet. That's a somewhat hand-wavey goal, but it's as good of a goal to pick as any.

    What I did find with an approach of going Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Alphabet is that I could get Libraries in every City. BUT, if I went The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet, I could get Granaries AND Libraries in every City within the same timeframe.

    As I said earlier, certain techs are non-monopoly techs, so they will be traded by an AI even if you and the AI are isolated. Some of those techs are:
    Fishing (we start with it, though)
    Mining (we NEED to self-tech this one early in order to unlock Bronze Working for the Gems)
    Animal Husbandry
    Monarchy

    So, even if it's just Willem and us, as soon as Willem learns Animal Husbandry and we learn Alphabet, Animal Husbandry is instantly ours. The same can't be said of The Wheel and Pottery. Plus, missing out on Granaries for so long is going to be quite painful.

    With Alphabet coming reasonably quickly after Writing, it seems painful to go for Animal Husbandry after Writing. And, with our Creative Trait, I believe that it will be a mistake to research both Pottery and Animal Husbandry prior to learning Writing (you're free to dispute my claim with a test, but I doubt that you'll succeed) since our Libraries are so cheap that we can get them everywhere and they immediately help in each City with a Palace or one or two Gems Mines (which just happens to be each of our first three Cities!). The 20% bonus to research by knowing both techs before learning Writing will not make up for the missing Flasks from delaying Writing, from what I tried with very early testing.

    If we get to a point where we're convinced that going for The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing trumps Animal Husbandry -> Writing, then I think that we can agree that the Cow Resource won't play a significant factor for City 2.

    So, then we will need to decide if getting to work the Crab earlier is worth settling by the Cow for City 2.

    We also have to consider what we might give up... by sharing the Wheat for 4 turns, we can get City 2 to Size 2 pretty quickly, which leads to working a second square for a few turns, then being able to 1-pop-whip a Worker that has 30 Hammers in it (say, 20 from a Chop and 10 from Food + Hammers). That earlier Worker can mean getting a second Gems Mine set up even faster.


    B] Which techs to go for?
    I'm pretty convinced from testing that our ideal path is:
    Mining -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

    Again, playing out a game until the time that we learn Alphabet is required to see just how much more we can get done by getting the early Granaries and then regrowing by using them much earlier on. But, feel free to do more testing to convince yourselves.

    The Wheel also gives us +1 Happiness with ONE Road (we don't need a whole ton of Roads early on), which can help for the capital and for any City that we grow and need to finesse not having a Military Police unit in the City, such as when sending a Warrior to guard a Gems Mine from an incoming Barb Human unit.


    C] Where do we settle City 3?
    This point is only really a corollary to point B] in that we only have 1 spot to settle by the Wheat + 2 Gems, but Cow City could be 1E or 2E of the Cow. 2E of the Cow will make a slightly better City 2 in the short term, as we can steal the capital's G Riv Farm and the City can be settled 1 turn faster.

    However, assuming that fog-gazing is correct, 1E of the Cow could make for a decent Heroic Epic City.

    Settling at 1E as City 3 is less painful than City 2, as the loss of 1 turn means less for City 3, since City 2 is the City that you want to use to get +2 free Commerce from getting City 1's and City 2's first Trade Routes up.

    Basically, being able to settle at Cow 1E is one of the strengths of delaying when we settle Cow City until City 3, but if we can somehow show that settling City 2 as Cow City is super strong, then we'll do so.


    D] When to start building a Settler?
    I think that we can figure this info out with comparisons at about T30 or perhaps T35. Basically, we have a few costs vs rewards to factor in, and hopefully, the best answer will become apparent around the same time.

    Of course, if we are settling in different locations or are researching different tech paths (at least for the case of tech paths where the differences will actually be used by that time--I don't think that going for partial Animal Husbandry really matters, other than making it harder to compare raw Flasks collected, since The Wheel gets no bonuses while Animal Husbandry gets 1 free Flask for every 5 Flasks that we earn), the comparison becomes a bit harder, but also, it's worth noting that the comparison will still probably work anyway, as we won't have really needed to have used Animal Husbandry or Pottery by the time that the comparison can be made.

    So, I think that for this question, we're free to settle at any location for City 2, but my gut feeling is that settling near the Wheat for City 2 will be the stronger play, from the limited testing that I have done.

    For this question, we'll have various factors at play:
    i. Starting on a Settler sooner gets City 2 sooner
    ii. Starting on a Settler later loses us time in starting on the Settler, but can gain some of that time back by producing more total F + H per turn going into a Settler
    iii. Growing first gives us more Commerce
    iv. Settling sooner gives us more F + H in the second City
    v. Settling sooner can possibly give us less or more Commerce
    vi. Growing the capital before going, say, Settler -> Worker, might allow us to catch up even further for the timing of when that Worker gets produced relative to the turns spent growing
    vii. By being at Size 5 with the capital, we can earn a free Flask when researching Bronze Working; but, getting a City 2 up sooner might earn us a similar bonus Flask if we earn enough total Commerce from the Trade Routes and square worked in City 2
    viii. A fast City 2 seems like it would be the strongest if the capital can afford to miss out on its Wheat for 3 to 4 turns, assuming that we don't incur an additional Gold in Maintenance by growing City 2 to Size 2, but even if we do incur that cost, the ability to whip City 2 earlier could still be beneficial (essentially, free Happiness to use, and a lower amount of total Food spent to grow +1 City Size than growing the capital)
    ix. Possibly other factors, such as Cultural Borders expanding sooner or later

    Since Bronze Working doesn't seem to come in before City 2 gets settled in any of the scenarios (assuming settling at 2N of the Wheat), we don't have to worry about the timing of Bronze Working as a direct factor on being able to settle City 2 earlier.

    HOWEVER, an important factor will be:
    x. Does any gain or loss in Commerce speed up or delay when we learn Bronze Working? This date may or may not affect whether we can get one of our Gems Mines worked a turn earlier, which, for a square that is 2 F + 1 H + 6 C, can already make us a big savings just by being able to work it one turn sooner


    E] Spawn-busting
    EDIT: It seems that neilmesiter is already one step ahead of us and he already has our Scout on the G Riv square that is 1N of the northernmost Gems (the G Riv For Gems). So, yes, sure, he can keep skipping his turn there until a Barb Unit comes adjacent to us, at which point we'll probably retreat 1S to the G Riv For Gems if the Barb unit comes from the north or 1E to the P Riv square (1NE of the G Riv For Gems square) if the Barb unit comes from the south-west. So, despite what I wrote below, sure, we might as well maintain our Fortification bonus for as long as we can. Nice work! :)

    A Scout being Fortified against Human Barbs is not using his strengths effectively.

    His best strength is being able to move 1 square per turn while never being at risk from 1-movement-point Barb Units.

    A Scout should not be engaging in combat with Barb Humans.

    Unlike a Warrior of ours, a Scout can only gain bonsuses for terrain and Fortification off of its base Strength of 1. Even against Barb Animals, the same is true; a Scout gets an additional bonus against Barb Animals, but not a multiplicative bonus.

    To illustrate, our Warrior being fully Fortified in a Forest will earn an extra:
    2 * 0.75 = 1.5 Strength

    But, our Scout will only earn an extra:
    1 * 0.75 = 0.75 Strength, putting him at 1.75

    On Immortal, we get no bonuses against Human Barbs (only a tiny 5% against Animal Barbs), so our Scout should never be engaging in combat against Barb Humans.

    That fact means that our Scout is best used to move 1 square, stay there if it's the best spot for him to be, or retreat back to where he was if he'd end up fighting by moving. We should not be having him move 2 squares. His strength is his power to retreat and stay alive.

    When it comes down to it, we want to be able to settle City 2 without a Barb Human unit adjacent to our City. Testing shows that a Barb Human unit, which isn't yet allowed to enter our Cultural Borders, will have no trouble with razing our adjacent City if it is already within our Cultural Borders when we settle our City (i.e. if we settle right next to a Barb Human unit). So, if a Barb Human unit is close to where we want to settle, we may end up trying to lure said Barb Human unit by moving our Scout to a Hills square, which a Barb unit can see from 2 squares away.

    Meanwhile, if we can prevent dangerous Barb units from spawning, our Scout will be doing us a great service, in exchange for the potential chance to meet an AI early that we already gave up on.


    F] Science micro
    Once we have figured out where to settle and when to build our Settler, we can determine if we are able to save a turn on researching Bronze Working by running either Binary Science at unexpected times (say, if we only need a small amount of Gold, running a 0% Science slider when we are earning less total Commerce and later staying at a 100% Science slider when we are able to earn a bonus Flask if we are at 100% but not at 90% or lower).

    We may just end up earning a couple of extra Flasks for our post-Bronze-Working tech, which will have less impact, but could still some impact if doing so means learning Writing 1 turn sooner or the tech after Writing 1 turn sooner.



    The more info, the better.

    For example, total Food, Hammer, Flask, and Gold values as of T30 is a good start.

    Info on exactly when we settle City 2 and providing info on exactly what we did in terms of our Commerce sliders and whether there was any fractional loss (or missing out on bonus Flasks) as a result of that timing... knowing that info can let us know whether we will have the chance of squeezing out a few more Flasks or not by changing when we have various slider positions.

    Also, knowing which turns when you've figured out where a non-100% Science Slider won't hurt us can help; for example, if we're researching a tech like Bronze Working that gets a 20% bonus to Flasks and we make 4 Flasks, 9 Flasks, or 14 Flasks, we'll get a bonus Flask due to getting 1 free Flask added to that amount and then that total amount being 5, 10, or 15, which will just barely earn a 20% bonus Flask... the same can be somewhat said of making 5, 10, or 15 or making 6, 11, or 16. Making 3, 8, 13, or 18 is about as bad as we can do, and making 2, 7, 12, or 17 is nearly as bad, as it means just barely missing out on a bonus Flask once our free Flask for the turn is added on. In addition to that factor, there is the factor of whether, say, running at 50% or 80% might give us non-fractional values for our total Flasks and Gold earned; a fractional value can mean a loss of 1 Flask or Gold per turn, in addition to any potential lost bonus Flasks from meeting a breakpoint of another 5 total Flasks (counting the free Flask per turn), meaning that we could potentially be losing as many as 2 Flasks (or 1 Flask and 1 Gold) per turn, depending upon our Science slider's position on various turns.

    Any other little details that may matter can also be relevant and worth reporting, such as the turn when we think that we can get each of our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Gems Mines online (which requires only loosely playing the game out by focusing only on Worker actions and on Cities that will produce additional Workers).


    Whichever path we end up choosing will pretty much dictate when Slavery gets used, but I don't see us being able to do a typical "build a Settler then revolt while the Settler is moving" tactic, due to the timing of when we get our Settler relative to learning Bronze Working for any of the variants.
     
  14. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Agree with most of this but testing cannot be accurately done without knowing what is west of that cow. For all we know, there might be a resource in the fog that would make 1 east of the cow a necessity?

    Can we divert the Scout, or a Warrior, that way to see what shows?
     
  15. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    The decision to settle that City as City 3 could be as simple as the above: we won't easily know for sure where to settle that City as City 2, so we can effectively delay the decision by settling that location as City 3.

    It's not the cleanest of answers, but sometimes you only know what you know and you have to go with the flow. :lol:


    I've updated the test game ever so slightly such that we haven't met our neighbours yet.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Here are the stats from the saved game that I believe matches up Htadus' run from Message #95 with the saved game from Message #115
    This saved game may not be good as his next attempt, since I believe that we worked the Uncamped Deer and thus got Agriculture 1 turn late, but it's the only saved game that I have to work with right now (I don't see a saved game for the Message 121 test run)
    Settler Size 3 (I think), City 2 at Cow-2E

    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 5, 10 / 30 F
    20 H in a Worker, don't yet have Worker 2, have Warrior 2

    City 2
    Size 1, 18 / 22 F
    6 H in a Work Boat

    5 overflow Flasks
    0 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 5 + 1 = 6
    Food = 10 + 18 = 28 F
    Hammers = 20 + 6 + 15 + 15 = 56 H
    Flasks + Gold = 5 + 0 = 5

    Notes
    T30, 2800 BC Bronze Working learned
    Assuming that we switch to Slavery right away and 2-pop-whip the capital's Worker:
    1st Gems Mine online on T35, 2600 BC, but we don't have any other Gems Resources within our Cultural Borders
    Or, if we slow-build the Worker, we'll only get Worker 1 doing the Mining, meaning:
    1st Gems Mine online on T36, 2560 BC


    Size 5 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach (the one with the Warrior Military Police unit) from The-Hawk

    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 5, 12 / 30 F
    42 H in a Worker, don't yet have Worker 2, have Warrior 2

    City 2
    Size 1, 3 / 22 F
    1 H in a Warrior

    18 Flasks in Animal Husbandry
    15 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 5 + 1 = 6
    Food = 12 + 3 = 15 F
    Hammers = 42 + 1 + 15 + 15 = 73 H
    Flasks + Gold = 18 + 15 = 33

    Notes
    T29, 2840 BC Bronze Working learned
    If I plan to Chop the southernmost Gems before Worker 2 arrives there, slow-build Worker 2 in the capital (it is 2 turns from being done in the T30 saved game) by pretending that the capital had not used the Wheat last turn and that City 2 had used the Wheat on T29 and then City 2 keeps using the Wheat until it hits Size 2, and Chop Worker 3 in City 2:
    T32, 2720 BC Worker 2 completed in capital
    T33, 2680 BC City 2 Size 2, starts on Worker 3
    T34, 2640 BC 1st Gems (the Non-riverside one) Mined and worked (at the cost of not getting out Worker 3 earlier and losing 1 Worker turn sending 2 Workers to the Riverside Gems square when a Forest is still on it)
    T38, 2480 BC Worker 3 completed (too late to help with the first 2 Gems Mines)
    T39, 2440 BC 2nd Gems Mined and worked, with 2 Workers still able to perform their actions this turn


    Size 3 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach that I just tried

    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 4, 1 / 28 F
    9 H in a Warrior, already have Worker 2, don't have Warrior 2

    City 2
    Size 2, 2 / 24 F
    5 H in a Worker, 4 H in a Warrior

    6 overflow Flasks, Bronze Working just learned
    1 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 4 + 2 = 6
    Food = 1 + 2 = 3 F
    Hammers = 60 + 9 + 5 + 4 = 78 H
    Flasks + Gold = 6 + 1 = 7

    Notes
    T25, 3000 BC City 2 gets founded and STEALS THE WHEAT while City 1 is busy building a Worker (no delay in completing the Worker)
    T25, 3000 BC 0% Science on the turn that City 2 gets founded
    T26, 2960 BC 100% Science on the following turn
    T27, 2920 BC Worker 1 moves toward the northernmost Gems (G Riv For Gems)... a micro tip from neilmeister that I think makes a lot of sense... Chop both Gems Forests simultaneously using 2 different Workers, then have both Workers improve the Riverside one as the next step, and get help from Chopped-out Worker 3 on the 2nd Gems Mine
    T30, 2800 BC Bronze Working learned

    Just played onward to see when the 2 Gems Mines would get worked by City 2 (assuming no Barbs mess with us)...
    T34, 2680 BC Worker 3 comes out of Size 2 City 2 with the help of 2 Chops (unless we need a Chop for a Warrior before then)
    T35, 2600 BC Riverside Gems Mined and worked
    T36, 2560 BC 2nd Gems Mined and worked, 2 Worker actions still available for the turn


    I've also included the T23 saved game when Settler 2 gets built, to make it easier for someone to use this Size 3 Settler opening in other ways, such as settling City 2 by the Cow or not growing City 2 ASAP like I tried.


    Size 4 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach that I also just tried

    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 4, 9 / 28 F
    8 overflow H, already have Worker 2, already have Warrior 1

    City 2
    Size 2, 18 / 22 F
    3 H in a Warrior

    9 overflow Flasks, Bronze Working just learned
    4 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 4 + 1 = 5
    Food = 9 + 18 = 27 F
    Hammers = 60 + 8 + 3 + 15 = 86 H
    Flasks + Gold = 9 + 4 = 13

    Notes
    T25, 3000 BC 0% Science on an arbitrary turn before City 2 gets founded
    T26, 2960 BC 100% Science on the following turn
    T27, 2920 BC City 2 gets founded and STEALS THE WHEAT while City 1 is busy building a Worker (delays the completion of the Worker by 1 turn)

    T28, 2880 BC Worker 1 moves toward the Non-riverside Gems
    T30, 2800 BC Bronze Working learned

    Just played onward to see when the 2 Gems Mines would get worked by City 2 (assuming no Barbs mess with us)...
    T34, 2640 BC 1st Gems (the Non-riverside one) Mined and worked (at the cost of not getting out Worker 3 earlier and losing 1 Worker turn sending 2 Workers to the Riverside Gems square when a Forest is still on it)
    T37, 2520 BC Worker 3 completed (too late to help with the first two Gems Mines)
    T38, 2480 BC 2nd Gems Mined and worked, with 1 Worker still able to perform its action this turn


    Size 5 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N, early Warrior 2 approach from Neilmeister Message #143
    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 5, 10 / 30 F
    44 H in Worker 2, don't have Worker 2, already have Warrior 2

    City 2
    Size 1, 2 / 22 F
    2 H in a Warrior

    11 Flasks in The Wheel
    15 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 5 + 1 = 6
    Food = 10 + 2 = 12 F
    Hammers = 44 + 2 + 15 + 15 = 76 H
    Flasks + Gold = 11 + 15 = 26

    Notes
    T29, 2840 BC Bronze Working learned
    If I plan to Chop the southernmost Gems before Worker 2 arrives there, slow-build Worker 2 in the capital (it is 1 turn from being done in the T30 saved game IF we do not grow City 2, but should probably be 2 turns from done if we grow City 2 more effectively by stealing the Wheat when the capital is building Workers/Settlers) by pretending that the capital had not used the Wheat last turn and that City 2 had used the Wheat on T29 and then City 2 keeps using the Wheat until it hits Size 2, and Chop Worker 3 in City 2:

    Scenario A] Do not steal the Wheat until after Worker 2 has been completed
    T31, 2880 BC Worker 2 completed in capital
    T34, 2640 BC 1st Gems (the Non-riverside one) Mined and worked
    T38, 2480 BC 2nd Gems Mined and worked, with no Workers still able to perform their actions this turn and no clue as to when Worker 3 will be built

    Scenario B] The same as The-Hawk's run
    T32, 2720 BC Worker 2 completed in capital
    T33, 2680 BC City 2 Size 2, starts on Worker 3
    T34, 2640 BC 1st Gems (the Non-riverside one) Mined and worked (at the cost of not getting out Worker 3 earlier and losing 1 Worker turn sending 2 Workers to the Riverside Gems square when a Forest is still on it)
    T38, 2480 BC Worker 3 completed (too late to help with the first 2 Gems Mines)
    T39, 2440 BC 2nd Gems Mined and worked, with 2 Workers still able to perform their actions this turn




    It's going to be hard to totally judge how the Gems Mines will factor into things, which may mean that once we've optimized our T30 runs, we may have to play them out a bit further (in a relatively consistent way, such as slow-building Settler 3 after building X number of Warriors or something) just to get an impact of what working the Gems Mines at different times can do for us.

    The short answer is that:
    G Riv Farm -> G Gems Mine = -1 F +1 H + 5 C per turn
    G Riv Farm -> G Riv Gems Mine = -1 F +1 H + 6 C per turn

    With Food and Hammers being roughly equivalent pre-Granary (not totally true, but good enough for comparison's sake), we can say that we can make back 5 to 6 Commerce per turn for every extra turn of working a Gems Mine.


    We might also decide to put a Chop or two from City 2's Gems' Forests into a Granary instead of Worker 3. Comparisons start to get harder the more variants that we have available to us, but in a given run, one variant may be better than another variant. Getting that 3rd Worker does seem like a strong play, though, as City 2 can do without a Granary for quite some time and the more Worker actions that we have means getting Granaries where they are more important (in the capital and the Cow City) faster via Chopping.


    EDIT: I suppose that it's possible that we might even later want to settle City 3 to grab the Corn + western Gems (sharing the Riverside Gems so that our Wheat + 2 Gems City can grow faster while only working 1 Gems square later), then settle the Cow City 1S of the Cow, to still make use of the Cow + Crab but also to make use of the 2nd Corn found to the west of the Cow in the test saved game... the odds of that happening in the real game are slim, but it's certainly a possibility... or, we may prefer to turn that Corn into a City on the Coast, to allow it to leverage The Great Lighthouse and so that we can build an exploring Work Boat from another area.


    EDIT 2: I have added results and saved games for a Size 4 Settler run.
     
  17. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Comparisons
    I'd still like to see Htadus' saved game from his Message #121 test run.

    So, just to make the runs in the message above a bit more comparable to each other, let's say that the saved game which is 1 total population point behind should subtract 22 Food (as the City would grow in 1 turn for a cost of 22 Food). Let's also naively say that Food = Hammers and that Flasks = Gold, just to get some easily-comparable totals.

    In reality, Food matters when you're growing and if it's going to be a long time before you will grow to the next City Size, then it doesn't matter as much.

    Likewise, Hammers matter when you have something useful to build; pre-Pottery and pre-Writing, while we can still build Warriors and Work Boats, we can't build the build items that will give us an immediate return on our investment (although Work Boats can give us a payout in the medium term with the potential to unlock Foreign Trade Routes, while Warriors can potentially save us future Hammers in not needing to fend off Barb Archers).

    Similarly, Flasks matter more when they can get you sooner to an important tech.

    Gold, at this early stage, is just an enabler to help us to more efficiently get more Flasks from our Commerce.

    Using a simplified way of comparing runs can hopefully help us to pick an approach and move forward.

    I'm going to also factor in differences in Commerce for extra or less turns working the relevant Gems Mines, say, until Turn 40. It's not a perfect comparison, but assuming that we'll otherwise be working relatively weaker squares that are somewhat equivalent to each other (a G Riv Farm, an Unmined Gems square, an Unnetted Crab square, etc), the comparison should do well enough.


    Settler Size 3 (I think), City 2 at Cow-2E
    28 + 56 = 84 F + H
    Gems: T36 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine: 4 * 6 = 24
    5 + 24 = 29 Flasks + Gold

    Size 5 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach
    15 + 73 = 88 F + H
    Gems: T34 to T40 = 1 Non-riverside Gems Mine; T39 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine: 6 * 5 + 1 * 6 = 30 + 6 = 36
    33 + 36 = 69 Flasks + Gold

    Size 3 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach
    3 + 78 = 81 F + H
    Gems: T35 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine; T36 to T40 = 1 Non-riverside Gems Mine: 5 * 6 + 4 * 5 = 30 + 20 = 50
    7 + 50 = 57 Flasks + Gold

    Size 4 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N approach
    27 - 22 + 86 = 91 F + H
    Gems: T34 to T40 = 1 Non-riverside Gems Mine; T38 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine: 6 * 5 + 2 * 6 = 30 + 12 = 42
    13 + 42 = 55 Flasks + Gold

    Size 5 Settler, City 2 at Wheat-2N, early Warrior 2 approach from Neilmeister Message #143
    12 + 76 = 88 F + H
    Gems: T34 to T40 = 1 Non-riverside Gems Mine; T38 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine: 6 * 5 + 2 * 6 = 30 + 12 = 42
    26 + 42 = 68 Flasks + Gold

    I will be happy to add additional results to the comparisons if people can provide me with their Turn 30 saved games.
     
  18. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Dhoom, thanks for framing all these decisions. I think it is critical to our getting aligned.

    RE: City 2 site.

    I think we need to step back from the micro view and decide on our immediate goal.
    • If our goal is to REX, then the cows site is much better for the reasons Htadus mentioned. Settling cows allows us to work 5 food tiles at the same time. Settling 2N of wheat only allows us to work 3 food tiles. Working 5 food tiles vs. 3 has to allow for more settlers and workers in the short term. We won't see it in our 30-40 turn testing, but I believe we'd see it in timing and tile improvement of cities 4 and 5.
    • If our goal is quick research, for example, to open up a wonder first, then 2N of wheat is better. It allows us to work 2 gems tiles vs. 1 if we settle cows.
    So, the question is, are we more focused on REX or a quick research jump? My answer is... it depends. If we are at risk of being boxed, then REX is better. If we have tons of room, then a research head start could be the right play. In my games... my default is to REX. Reason being, if you later discover you are boxed or can't reach a strategic resource, you can't come back and REX later. So, I'd lean towards cow site for #2, unless I was pretty confident I had space. The good news is... there probably won't be much delay between the two cities... so this is not a make or break decision.

    Being called to dinner... I'll keep working down the list this evening.
     
  19. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Continuing:

    RE: Tech Path

    I think your tech path sounds right, even if we settle the cow site as city 2. However, if we have no copper after we research BW, we may need to go AH next to find horses to help handle barbs.

    RE: Site for cow city

    I would opt for 1E of the cows. Even if 2E has some short term benefits, I would not want to nerf the city in the long run. The only way I'd settle 2E is if we discover there is coast to the W and we want to leave room for a city further west.

    I'm assuming that if we settle cows first, we would move our scout over to uncover the FOW and then fog bust. This will show us if 1E would block another tempting city site.

    RE: Timing of settler

    I think we need to just look at the tests and see which seems best. I would like to get cities 2 and 3 up quickly, my gut says getting all three gems online is a powerful play. So I would tend to try to maximize food output.

    RE: Fog Bust.

    I agree... I don't think our scout should be scouting until we've got a few warriors out to fog bust. If we can settle city 2 without having to complete a second warrior to fog bust, that is goodness. Scout should hang at the site we will settle first.

    RE: Science Micro

    I have to say, this is not something I do, not sure I can help. I always run binary science, but have never tried to micro manage other than flipping to 0% when I can't run at 100%.

    RE: Slavery

    I usually revolt as soon as I learn BW. My logic is I'd rather take the lost turn when I have less cities and citizens. I.e. lower total impact. Exception is if I'm in a race for Oracle and don't think I need to whip any time soon.
     
  20. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Longer Term Goals and Research
    My personal take on the longer-term goals is that I have no clue what the longer-term goals are. :p Essentially, our tasks from Willem are going to dictate what we need to plan for, and until we learn that info, it's going to be quite hard to plan out many of our medium-term to long-term goals.

    For example, how far do we tech? Do we need to beeline techs that we might not normally do so, such as Calendar or Engineering to ensure that we build the correct Wonder, or Guilds so that we can build an army of Knights to gift to an AI?

    We can essentially tech up to Writing, spam Workers, then gift them to Willem. Or, we can tech up to Currency and start gifting him Gold.

    The potential downsides with gifting Workers are that they will take time to get from our empire to his capital (so, no immediate feedback on what our tasks will be) and the Workers might die to Barbs.

    The main potential downside with gifting Gold is that we might accidentally obsolete a task if said task asks us to complete it before unlocking the secret of Currency... fortunately, we're likely to only miss out on one task by learning Currency in the worst case.

    Workers or Gold can also come from a neighbour (assuming that we have one other than Willem), with Workers only practically coming from our continent mates (if we have any) and Gold possibly coming from any AI that we meet (if we get Work Boats out and aren't on a continent that requires Caravels for us to meet anyone besides Willem).

    The trouble that I have with focusing less on research is that we have a lot of short-term research goals:
    Pottery for Granaries
    Writing for Libraries and Open Borders
    Animal Husbandry for the Cow and revealing Horses
    Sailing for Lighthouses, Foreign Trade Routes, and The Great Lighthouse
    Masonry for The Great Lighthouse

    Already having to self-tech both Agriculture and Mining puts us behind relative to a lot of other Leaders' starts in a typical game, so having to research all of those other techs early on puts a big burden on us research-wise.


    REXing
    The difficulty that I have is that we want both Pottery and Animal Husbandry for effective REXing if we settle City 2 by the Cow, and we also need the Hammers for a Work Boat.

    Yet, also important, is to get Writing quickly so that we can get at least 1 fast Great Scientist as well as Libraries to further boost our research.

    If we had Animal Husbandry already, I'd be a lot more in favour of settling by the Cow. But, getting that tech competes heavily with:
    i. +1 Happiness from the Gems via The Wheel
    ii. Early Granaries, which are strong, via Pottery
    iii. Getting to Writing for cheap Libraries

    Without the Cow being Pastured and without the production power to make an early Work Boat quickly leaves Cow City as not really having Food Resources early on.

    We could whip a Work Boat after growing on the G Riv Farm for 8 turns, getting the Crab netted after 10 turns, but then we'd be at Size 1 and not working our GH Riv Gems Mine (or else not working the netted Crab).

    We could Chop and slow-build a Work Boat, but even with 4 Food from the Clam, we're back down to a +3 Food surplus when also working the GH Riv Gems Mine, which is no different than working a G Riv Farm in terms of Food surplus.

    Let's be honest... neither location is actually going to be great for REXing in the short term.

    The G Corn looks like a slightly better spot for REXing, since we already have Agriculture, but settling up there means no early Trade Routes, increased Maintenance, more area to defend, more Worker turns that need to be invested... it's not a great option, either.

    So, we turn back to our capital... with a Granary built there and some extra Happiness, it can 3-pop-whip Settlers, although we'll probably want to generate our Great Scientist for an Academy there at some point, too. In fact, when we're generating our first Great Scientist, I'm sure that we'll be happy that another City can steal one of the capital's 3 Food Resources.

    Thus, it feels like we don't really have a great spot for early REXing and thus I'm okay with not trying to force us into REXing mode when we don't have a good site to REX from early on (besides our capital initially), given our setup.


    Wheat + 2 Gems City
    We pretty much need a City to work the easternmost Gems square and I don't see a way to partner up that Gems Resource with a Food Resource without using the Wheat. It's better to sometimes "have to" (or "get to") share the Wheat than settle in a way not to be able to use it.

    In fact, we probably want to fit in enough turns of working the Wheat to be able to grow that City to Size 3 relatively early. Doing so when building a Worker or a Settler in our capital just means 3 less HAMMERS going into said Worker or Settler, so it's the right time to use the Wheat.

    I say Size 3 so that we can 1-Chop and 1-pop-whip a Library while still being able to work 2 Gems squares, then slow-build a Granary. Yes, that City won't help much with REXing. But, it will help us to quickly unlock many of our teching goals so that we can get Animal Husbandry and the techs for The Great Lighthouse while also having our Granaries and Libraries.

    Settling this City later means less opportunities to borrow the Wheat when the capital is otherwise busy using that Food as Hammers in a poor 1:1 conversion ratio (compared to whipping with Granary usage, that's quite a poor conversion rate).


    Cow City
    We're not sure if Cow-2E or Cow-1E is better (since we can't see part of the map yet), and yet settling at Cow-1E does give us a bit of a slower start in the sense that we settle 1 turn slower and thus get our first Trade Routes a bit slower, and can't start working a 2-Hammer square right away for a faster Work Boat with the help of 10 raw Hammers and a Forest Chop.

    That said, Bronze Working isn't ready right away anyway, so we're forced to wait for Bronze Working to come in before we can get to work on finishing off that first Work Boat, which is a factor that definitely slows that City down. Settling this City a bit later when we've already learned Bronze Working means that the Work Boat can come out sooner after the City's founding date.

    Focusing on research first does mean unlocking more of the techs that we want (including Animal Husbandry) that much sooner, meaning that the Cow location can also get better that much sooner after being settled, too.

    Basically, we lack the techs to make Cow City awesome by settling it as City 2, and we also want to get a lot of techs, so I don't really see it as a bad thing to focus on research first and then make Cow City take off quickly after the date of founding it.

    I also think that I prefer Cow-1E to Cow-2E for the perceived extra GH squares and thus a good future Heroic Epic location, but we may end up even settling at Cow-1S and settling a City with G Corn + the third Gems square.


    Slavery
    Chances are that we're going to need Slavery early, so when we revolt might not matter, but sometimes, there are slightly better times to revolt than right away.

    For example, if a Worker will be completed in 4 turns' time and we don't need to whip for 5 turns, we can first complete the Worker, then revolt, and earn a free Worker action out of the Worker. The same could be said of a Settler being built in 4 turns' time... it can move for one extra turn if we revolt after it gets completed.

    But, if you need to whip before that time, you just take the hit and go into Slavery when needed.


    City 3
    A nice thing about growing our capital to Size 5 quickly is that it's not too far off from 3-pop-whipping Settler 3. Overflow Hammers can optionally go into whatever we need (a Warrior, a Work Boat, maybe a Granary if the timing is right), or we can just whip the Settler as soon as possible to get that third City up sooner.

    Alternatively, we can 2-pop-whip Worker 2, overflow into Settler 3, then 2-pop-whip Settler 2 as soon as we reach Unhappiness at Size 5.

    Then it comes down to both City 2 and City 3 coming out quickly (although we may need to prepare for Barbs coming at us quickly if we do so, since Barbs "charge" into Civilizations' borders once a certain number of players' Cities exist on the map... 2 * number of players + 1, I think), meaning that the settling order should depend more upon which squares can be worked in the short term, and with only Agriculture, Mining, and Bronze Working being available in the short term, I'd opt for the 2-Gems site first.


    Build Order
    The sooner that we can decide upon a path, the more that we can focus on picking a good build order. It will be nice to whip our first item from our capital soon, so as to start working off the Unhappiness from whipping, especially since in the early game, a Whip provides 30 H to a Chop's 20 H.

    But, determining when to whip, when to slow-build, and in what order may take some effort.

    I'm pretty happy with neilmeister's approach of getting a Worker after Settler 2. But, do we whip that Worker? Which build items come next? Various options exist, so it would be nice to have the team focused on a given path so that we can optimize the build order and whipping timings.
     

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