SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Longer Term Goals and Research:
    Think we need to stay balanced as best as we can. Would like to fill any unsettled space fairly quickly but do not wish to compromise research. Have a sneaky feeling there is a reason why we have three gems tiles available to us. :shifty:

    Also think we should start to think in terms of city specialization as we consider sites. Think we're going to need a strong production city for units. :hammer:
    And several strong commerce cities. Capital has potential... :)
     
  2. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Sorry to have been out of the action.... wife was saying I cant 'play that game' on the last day of a family holiday.... but I am home now!

    There is a lot of detail and good discussions above.

    Where to settle
    I nearly always favor quick commerce over quick rexing, especially as the 'slow' research route also requires another tech to be learned (AH). So I definitely want city 2 to be the wheat/gems site, it would also look to be less exposed. After meeting nobody, I don't think we are going to be boxed in.

    At what pop to build the settler
    The above testing looks pretty solid, and I can agree with the assumptions, so this is highly dependent on our 'where to settler' question. I can agree to build the settler at pop 5.

    Build order after
    My testing pretty much had settler-worker-settler (sometimes whipped, sometimes not).
    I will play some attempts out now
     
  3. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I tried a size 5 settler, warrior 2, worker 2 approach, with the worker out on t31.

    The hammers were perfect for both warrior & worker, I did this by working the GHF instead of the furs for t14, 15 & t18, t19.
    So, we lose some beakers & some food, and the original worker has to build farm for 2 turns and not 3, but both the warrior 2 and the worker 2 get out a turn earlier.
     
  4. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Okay, so I did the comparisons. If we go with what you suggested, we're just 1 Flask short of The-Hawk's run, due to getting 1 more turn of working a Gems Mine.

    However, we could equally do the same thing in The-Hawk's run, so we're actually 7 Flasks behind, with the total Food and Hammers being equal to each other.

    The other factor is what we're going to build in City 2.

    If we grow City 2 and delay Worker 2, City 2 will start earning us whatever its second citizen works that much sooner, for the cost of 1 less turn of working the G Riv Gems Mine. At +2 inputs per turn (assumes working a G Riv Farm or an Unmined Gems square), we make back that amount after 3 turns.

    Plus, the sooner that we can grow City 2 to Size 3, the sooner that we'll earn yet another +2 inputs per turn.

    Still, it can be argued that we do something like:
    T29 G Riv Farm
    T30 G Riv Farm
    T31 Steal the Wheat for 8 turns while the capital slow-builds a Settler

    Somewhere in there, we'd have a few turns of stagnation if we were to build Worker 3 from City 2 mostly from Chops. Alternatively, we could aim to get +2 Warriors or an exploring Work Boat from City 2, without delaying growth, but also by not having that 3rd Worker out early.

    That way, we'd grow almost as fast and could earn that +6 Commerce from the earlier Gems Mine.

    Yet, we could do something similar with The-Hawk's run while earning 7 extra Commerce at the cost of not getting Warrior 2 out early.


    Then, there's also the consideration that we probably don't want to fully stagnate the capital while building Settler 3 and will probably prefer to whip and regrow, meaning that City 2 can't steal the Wheat as much during that time and that it really should consider stealing the Wheat while the capital is building Worker 2, even if that means delaying getting the second Gems Mine hooked up by 1 turn.


    Or, perhaps there's an alternative option, where we still aim to get 2 Chops into Worker 3 soon enough for Worker 3 to help out with the Mining operations, delaying when we get the first Gems Mine up but possibly speeding up the time of getting both Gems Mines up.


    Then, there's another line of thought, where we 2-pop-whip Worker 2, overflow into Settler 3, and steal the Wheat in City 2 during that time. Then, the capital grows quickly by taking the Wheat back.


    Basically, that's an expensive Warrior 2 (a cost of 7 Flasks). It may be better to whip Worker 2 and Chop out a Warrior in City 2.


    There are still a lot of variants left to try and we should try to play out the games that do Size 5 Settler and City 2 at Wheat-2N until Turn 40, so that the comparisons can be more complete, rather than looking only at some of the factors at once.
     
  5. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Numbering Units
    In the test game, I numbered our Worker using Ctrl + 1. Then, pressing 1 will select the Worker, so that one can press "1" and then "Backspace <--" in order to quickly cancel a Worker's action, such as an action to build a Farm. We may want to consider doing the same thing in the real game.

    It's up to you to whatever you're comfortable with, of course.
     
  6. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Another Test Run (playing out what I discussed in Message 145)
    Okay, it is harder than I thought to play a game out to T40, as we start to encounter a lot of decisions that will need to be made. A more reasonable date might have been T35, but even that's tough, as there are a lot of decisions to get through. Anyway, maybe we don't really need to do post-T30-testing right away, as I think that this saved game looks pretty strong... thanks to neilmeister for the inspiration that we don't HAVE to work the Fur while building the Settler and can switch to a different square... I had my blinders on to the fact that the needed 2 Commerce were available from the Coast, right there in front of my eyes.

    I think that an alternative approach is going to be hard to compete with a game that gets Bronze Working on T28, which gives us options, such as Chopping out a Warrior in City 2 which will appear at the end of T30, for example. I was trying to build Worker 3, but I think that Warrior 2 and then an exploring Work Boat will be a good use of our Gems' Forest Chops.


    Notes
    T20, 3200 BC (or some time later while building the Settler, if we forget to do so right away) spend 2 turns working a Coast instead of the Fur... but, make sure to manually unselect the Fur, as the game will switch the GH Riv Mine to a Coast if you just click on the Coast square
    T22, 3120 BC (or later if we started to work the Coast later) switch back to working the Fur
    T26, 2960 BC Bronze Working in 2 turns, so our Worker heads toward the Non-riverside G For Gems square
    T26, 2960 BC Ensure that we see the Warrior still in the build queue appearing after the Settler
    T27, 2920 BC Settler 2 -> Worker 2
    T28, 2880 BC REVOLT TO SLAVERY WHILE THE SETTLER IS MOVING, YAY!
    T28, 2880 BC Worker 1 partially Chops the Non-riverside G For Gems (assuming that our Scout has survived and there are no Barb units nearby)
    T29, 2840 BC City 2 gets settled and steals the Wheat while building a Warrior
    T29, 2840 BC Science Rate 0%
    T29, 2840 BC City 1 Whips Worker 2 and works Deer, Crab, and GH Riv Mine
    T29, 2840 BC Worker 1 partially Chops the Non-riverside G For Gems
    T29, 2840 BC Ensure that we see the Warrior still in the build queue appearing after the Worker
    T30, 2800 BC Worker 1 partially Mines the Non-riverside G For Gems

    From here, I'm not sure if it's best to:
    i. finish off the G For Gems's Forest and then move on to Chopping the G Riv For Gem's Forest
    OR
    ii. put a turn into the Mine so as to grow while working the Wheat

    We also need to decide... City 2's Chops into Worker 3 or into something else, like a Warrior or a Work Boat... if not into a Worker, we can Chop on T30 for certain; if into a Worker, then maybe still Chop then, stagnating growth but putting the Wheat's Hammers into the Worker.

    Also, from here, the capital could build an Exploring Work Boat instead of putting all of those overflow Hammers into a Settler. We don't want to finish off the Warrior, as we would have 5 / 15 + 35 overflow Hammers + at least 3 earned Hammers going into the Warrior, but any Hammers in excess of 30 total Hammers will get converted into Gold... which is not a good conversion of our Hammers this early in the game.


    Anyway, playing on with an approach of:
    T30, 2800 BC Chop into a Worker while City 2 works the Wheat (such a travesty, I know, but doing so can mean less total turns building the Worker if we can complete it early enough)
    T30, 2800 BC Worker 2 comes out of the capital and moves toward the Non-river G Gems square (no longer a Forest)
    T30, 2800 BC 50% Science for a turn (since we won't lose any fractional Flasks due to each City producing .5 Flasks and .5 Gold)
    T31, 2760 BC 100% Science
    T31, 2760 BC City 1: Build Warrior, Work Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm
    T31, 2760 BC City 2: Build Warrior, Work Wheat
    T31, 2760 BC Worker 1 moves to the G Riv For Gems
    T32, 2720 BC Worker 1 starts Chopping the G Riv For Gems
    T32, 2720 BC Worker 2 starts to Mine the G Gems 1N of City 2
    T33, 2680 BC Here, I want both Cities to grow in 1 turn using the Wheat, but the Forest won't get Chopped until next turn (and it won't help to send both Workers to Chop it this turn, as that Forest won't come under our Cultural influence until next turn), so...
    T33, 2680 BC City 1: Go back to building Settler 3, Work Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine
    T33, 2680 BC City 2: Continue building the Warrior, Continue working the Wheat to grow in 1 turn
    T34, 2640 BC I am finding out that I don't really like this approach... Worker 3 is still 4 turns from being completed with the second Chop going into it, but we can't yet finish our first Gems Mine, either...

    I think that we'll be better off having both Workers 1 and 2 finishing off the first Gems Mine ASAP and only then having them both move to the G Riv For Gems square, but I have run out of time to go back and run through that approach, so I'll leave you with the T34 saved game in case you want to take a look.

    I'll need to do the T30 numbers quickly before going to sleep...
    T30, 2800 BC
    City 1
    Size 3, 4 / 26 F
    35 overflow H, 5 H in a Warrior, have Worker 2, already have Warrior 1

    City 2
    Size 1, 6 / 22 F
    1 H in a Warrior

    2 Flasks in The Wheel
    13 Gold

    ALREADY IN SLAVERY!

    Totals
    Population = 3 + 1 = 4
    Food = 4 + 6 = 10 F
    Hammers = 35 + 5 + 1 + 60 + 15 (+ a possible 20 this turn from a Chop) = 116 H (+ 20)
    Flasks + Gold = 2 + 13 = 15

    Now, it only seems fair to use the T31 numbers, since we're already in Slavery, so I'll give both:
    T31, 2760 BC
    City 1
    Size 3, 4 / 26 F
    46 H in a Settler, 5 H in a Warrior, have Worker 2, already have Warrior 1

    City 2
    Size 1, 6 / 22 F
    1 H in a Warrior, 27 H in a Worker

    11 Flasks in The Wheel
    18 Gold

    Totals
    Population = 3 + 1 = 4
    Food = 4 + 6 = 10 F
    Hammers = 46 + 5 + 1 + 27* + 60 + 15 = 154 H - 20 H if we don't count the Chop = 134 H
    * 20 of those Hammers came from a Chop... do we count them due to having gotten Bronze Working earlier?
    Flasks + Gold = 11 + 18 = 29

    So, going with the T31 values, but without the Forest Chop:
    10 - 28 - 26 + 134 = 90 H
    Gems: T33 to T40 = 1 Non-riverside Gems Mine; T38 to T40 = 1 Riverside Gems Mine: 7 * 5 + 2 * 6 = 35 + 12 = 47
    29 + 47 = 76 Flasks + Gold

    That's our strongest run yet, purely by the numbers. The only real downside is that the capital isn't producing Warrior 2 anytime soon, BUT, we will have the option to Chop a Warrior in City 2, if we choose, or whip one there, too, if needed, reasonably early on. We might just be best off having City 2 produce a Warrior and then an exploring Work Boat instead of Worker 3, to strike a bit of a balance in our empire's production.

    It's nice to also get our Whipping Unhappiness counter started early, so that it will wear off sooner, too.

    As I said, I'll attach the T34 saved game from the approach that I feel should be abandoned in favour of having both Workers improve the Non-riverside G For Gems square first.
     
  7. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Excellent testing :goodjob:. Looks like we are getting to a very strong place.



    Without testing, I would have to agree. I think getting the gems up sooner is worth more. Those hammers from the second chop will still be there in a few turns, you are just delaying their use. But commerce lost from delaying the mine will be hard to recover even if a 3rd worker comes out earlier from the chop. Seems like it saves worker turns as well (less moving back and forth).
     
  8. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Thought you people were going to do some testing while I was away. What a bunch of slackers I'm playing with! (And the nerve of neil's wife.)

    Read/scanned the thread -- like where we've gone and where and how we're planning to go from here. Have some RL to catch up on but will soon be able to participate in the discussions going forward.
     
  9. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I agree both workers should be mining the first gems asap, its what I always did in my runs.

    Also agree that having BW finished on t28 is killer, just for all the efficiencies it brings: revolt during settler movement, earlier gems, earlier workers 2 & 3.


    This is my latest attempt, leveraging off Dhooms.
    The primary goal was to get all Gems online and being worked asap, (city 2 grows to pop 2 the same turn we finish the first mine on T33, and grows to pop 3 and works both G mines on T37)

    I also tried building worker 3 immediately after worker 2 in the Cap, mainly with the overflow from whipping worker 2. I liked this a lot. We get the warrior in Gems on T31, worker 3 from the cap on T33, and the extra warrior from the cap on T34.
    Another goal was to have city 3 settled at the same time as a WB arrived and when workers are available.

    Dhooms T20-T29 micro
    Spoiler :
    T20, 3200 BC (or some time later while building the Settler, if we forget to do so right away) spend 2 turns working a Coast instead of the Fur... but, make sure to manually unselect the Fur, as the game will switch the GH Riv Mine to a Coast if you just click on the Coast square
    T22, 3120 BC (or later if we started to work the Coast later) switch back to working the Fur
    T26, 2960 BC Bronze Working in 2 turns, so our Worker heads toward the Non-riverside G For Gems square
    T26, 2960 BC Ensure that we see the Warrior still in the build queue appearing after the Settler
    T27, 2920 BC Settler 2 -> Worker 2
    T28, 2880 BC REVOLT TO SLAVERY WHILE THE SETTLER IS MOVING, YAY!
    T28, 2880 BC Worker 1 partially Chops the Non-riverside G For Gems (assuming that our Scout has survived and there are no Barb units nearby)
    T29, 2840 BC City 2 gets settled and steals the Wheat while building a Warrior
    T29, 2840 BC Science Rate 0%
    T29, 2840 BC City 1 Whips Worker 2 and works Deer, Crab, and GH Riv Mine
    T29, 2840 BC Ensure that we see the Warrior still in the build queue appearing after the Worker


    T30,
    2800 BC Worker 1 finishes chop of the Non-riverside G For Gems, hammers into warrior
    worker from capital moves to Non-riverside G, cap starts worker 3
    Science Rate 100%

    T31,
    warrior in Gems finished (moves to fogbust NW), starts WB
    worker 2 mines G

    T33,
    Gems pop 2, G mine finished, worker 2 to riverside G
    worker 3 out & moves to GHF 2S of cap. Cap resumes warrior

    T34,
    research to 80% (just enough gold left to finish Wheel)
    worker 1 move to riverside G, worker 2 mine riverside G, worker 3 mines GHF
    warrior from cap out & moves to city 3 spot, cap starts WB

    T35,
    Wheel finished, start Pottery, research to 0%
    worker 1 mine riverside G

    T36
    research to 100%

    T37
    riverside G mine finished, Gems pop 3, Gems works both G mines and river farm
    cap pop 4, works Mine, Wheat, Crabs & Deer

    T38 - t50:
    Both Cap & Gems city finish both Granary & Lib early enough that they have run out of things to build.
    This micro isn't super tight, just wanted to play it out a few turns to see how it went. I still prefer Sailing after Writing to get started on lighthouses.

    Spoiler :

    T38,
    cap works Furs, Wheat, Crabs & Deer
    exploring WB out from Gems, Gems starts warrior ????
    workers 1 & 2 road non riverside G

    T39
    worker 1 roads riverside G
    worker 2 moves to GHF SW of Gems city

    T40
    Pottery finished, start Writing
    research to 0%
    WB finished in cap (goes to western crabs), cap start settler
    MP warrior finished in Gems city, start Granary
    worker 2 roads GHF SW of Gems city
    worker 3 finished mine (hammers into settler)
    Cap pop 5, works 2*Mines, Wheat, Crabs & Deer

    T41
    research to 100%
    worker 3 to forest 2W of cap
    worker 1 moves to GHF SW of Gems city (after worker 2 finishes road), chop

    T42
    whip settler in cap, work Deer, Wheat & Crabs
    workers 1&2 finish chop into Gems city granary
    worker 3 start chop 2W of cap

    T43
    settler out of cap, start granary (work deer, wheat & crabs, governor wants to change this!)
    workers 1&2 mine GH

    T44
    worker 3 finishes chop into caps granary
    western crabs netted
    city 3 settled, works netted crabs

    T45
    workers 1&2 road SE of city 3
    Gems city pop 4, works 2*G, Wheat & GH mine
    worker 3 roads NW of cap
    cap works Crabs, Deer, & Mine

    T46
    Writing finished, start Alpha? Sailing?
    research to 0%
    cap pop 4, granary finished, start Library
    workers 1&2 farm 1N of city 3

    T47
    worker 3 resume farm NW of cap
    cap whips Lib, works Deer & crabs

    T48
    Cap's Lib finished, start WB
    worker 1 move 1N to G

    T49
    research to 100%
    worker 2 move 1N to G
    worker 1 mine G
    Gems city finish granary, start Lib

    T50
    whip Lib in Gems city, work 2*G
    Cap pop 4, works deer, crabs, wheat & mine
    Cap WB finished (explorer 2), start WB??
     
  10. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    How far do you plan to play for the first set, assuming that there are no reasons to stop play? Barbs are most likely to be the biggest reason that I can think of to stop play.

    I still don't feel that I have time to commit to a turnset anytime soon and with Htadus not being available until weekends, that leaves you able to split up the turns over multiple turnsets, as necessary.
     
  11. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Think neil's next objective should be a stop at Bronze Working. There we can see if any adjustments are necessary should Copper show up somewhere nearby.
     
  12. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I will put together a PPP now, with the target being BW.

    As for barbs, here is the link to best thread you will ever find.

    The important part fir us though is:
    So, we should start to see non-animals at t19 - t20. In the test game most civs have or are 1t off building their second cities at that time.
     
  13. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    PPP for turns 14-28
    () = date finished

    Research order
    Mining(t17), BW(t28)

    City Builds
    X-opolis: WB(t15), warrior(t19), warrior(partial, switch to settler on t20), settler(27), worker(start...)

    Other
    EP's on Willem, rank 1

    Stop Conditions
    Human barbs showing up
    BW
    Anything else requiring team input (popping gems/gold for example)

    Micro
    Spoiler :

    T14
    Cap works: deer, wheat, fur

    T15
    worker farms 1W or wheat, cancels
    WB out, moves to crabs, Cap starts warrior

    T16
    worker moves to GH
    crabs netted
    Cap works: deer, wheat, crabs

    T17
    Cap pop 4, works: deer, wheat, crabs, fur (watch this, as governor will try to change it)
    Mining researched, start BW
    worker starts mine

    T19
    warrior finished (stays in X-opolis), start warrior

    T20
    Cap pop 5, work deer, wheat, crabs, mine, coast
    Switch production to settler

    T21
    worker resumes farm 1W of wheat

    T22
    Cap pop 5, work deer, wheat, crabs, mine, fur

    T25
    worker moves 1S, farms & cancels

    T26
    worker moves to southern gems

    T27
    settler out (moves to hill 2N or wheat), start worker
    Cap work deer, wheat, crabs, mine, fur

    T28
    BW researched, start Wheel
    REVOLT
    start chopping southern gems

     
  14. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Legoland was for the kids (honest!!).:mischief:

    I know, I was very unimpressed..... "it's not called 'that game' my dear, it is Civ4, the best game ever made... and don't talk to me about Civ5"
     
  15. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    PPP
    I played through the PPP in the test game.


    Not to mess with your micro, but I might even suggest that we work the Coast instead of the Fur on THIS turn (T20), while you're already looking at the City screen, then switch the Coast to the Fur on T22. Then, you might also want to put your nice bolding on the Fur for T22, so that it's easier to remember to switch back to working the Fur.

    Quick testing shows that if we accidentally work a Coast instead of the Fur for 3 turns (instead of the planned 2 turns), we'll still get our Settler on time (although later build items might be adversely affected by that loss of 1 Hammer). But, if we wait until T25 to switch to the Coast and forget until T27, then there's no good way of making up that missing Flask.


    I might suggest that if for some reason, the micro doesn't go according to plan, simply stop play. It's tempting to try and recover while in the heat of the moment, but since the micro is so tight, it'll probably be better to stop and do some testing on how to proceed, if we deviate from the planned path.


    Other than those minor points, things look great!


    Do us proud, but if you make a mistake, don't be hard on yourself, as this turnset actually has a lot of subtle micro to it that will not be trivial to implement! Good luck! :cool:
     
  16. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Indeed, the warrior is the MP for X-opolis.

    Either way for the micro, its the same result, but I will change it for you ;)

    ... and I never try to recover my mistakes...as the best way to recover is to stop and retest :)
     
  17. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Team Policy Questions
    The PPP looks good to me! What's the process for this team? Do we usually wait for one of:
    i. majority approval
    OR
    ii. when lacking that, minority approval with no outstanding items and 24+ hours having passed from the date of posting the PPP

    Do people in this team comment regularly enough to expect majority approval?


    Test Saved Game values
    The real game has 1133 squares of land, while our test game has a lot more with 1412 squares of land.

    So, there are 333 279 less squares of land in the real game, but the average quality of the land should be better in the real game.
    (EDIT: wow, bad math on my part, but it's still a big difference)
     
  18. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Normally we go for 24 hours since plan posting (at least, this is what the Suspects did).

    333 less squares in the real game, that sounds like a lot of ocean, which sounds like the ladies are isolated. Astro, here we come!
    One AI in the real game had 2 land tiles at the start, and 4 (iirc) after borders expanded. Maybe one of the ladies is on a tiny island in the middle of the ocean.
     
  19. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    PPP is up for 24 hours for comments, then we play. In this case, the micro is so well tested and rehearsed that I couldn't see anything else but to say go!

    Good Luck. :thumbsup:
     
  20. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I'm good too :goodjob:
     

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