SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

12A. I'd bring the spies back home. Steal Paper+PP from Hanni cheap. RepParts+Rifling from Brennus cheap (stationary in HC). Frankly, building a couple extra spies is probably worth it, especially if we go to Slavery. We could have Rifling in ~8t and Cavalry and drafted rifles would crush everything in sight.

12B. Steal Optics+Astro asap and upgrade a few galleons for quicker end-game access to remote cities, like Ergili Ecbatana.

12C. Steal nothing, a la ZPV. Just crank out units.
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HC has no Hindu and we can't easily build a missionary without a monastery. Stealing RP and Rifling without the religion mod doesn't seem worth it to me, unless we pop a GSpy.

I'm leaning towards 12C + steal Optics next turn + Vassalage, but I could go either way really.
 
PPP t209-?

Civics:
- adopt Slavery and Vassalage (Nationhood?)

Tech & Espionage:
- slider as needed to finish Steel in 1t, set some more cities to build units again
- ~30% EP slider on Hannibal for city visibility
- make sure we have enough gold for cannon upgrades in Nibru (400g)
- steal Optics next turn (30%)?
- move spies towards HaGift and DaGift this turn, keep scouting enemy territory if we don't pop a GSpy.

Brennus War:
- move injured units into our culture to heal
- t210: attack and raze Durnovaria
- see if Brennus will give us a city for DoP while we threaten one of his cities (Tolosa)
- if he will: move 22 defenders into Rome, give HC to Hannibal, DoP for city
- else: DoP for 400+ gold or CF? (What's our price for DoP?)
- injured units east of Bibracte heal, healthy units pillage. Promote 1 cuir with Medic I? Leave units there until we DoW Brennus again?

Hanni War:
- galleys hide in Nibru t209
- upgrade 5 trebs to cannons for 400g
- whip caravel, reaches galley stack on t213
- attach Rome GG to 13 XP cuir and xp bomb 3-4 other units? (Or upgrade chariot?)
- DoW t213?: land near Carthage with 5 cannons, 7 grenadiers, 4 or 6 cuirs
- capture Carthage, stack sails back towards Brennusland
- Healed units near Rome/Bovino: Focus on Sardis (DoW+0) (+maybe Sicca) - Kerkouane (DoW+1) - Hadr - Utica. (Mostly) ignore western cities that won't give much capture gold anyway.

Cities:
Rome: builds 2-3 cannons, then cuirs
Bovino: cannons
FC: cannon, cuirs
Nibru: max culture, rax, whip caravel, units
Damascus: gets military academy, builds units (4 cannons total in Arabian and Ethiopian cities, then cuirs for Darius, Sal, Zara)
Mecca: spy (to look for Sal's stack), then units
Other: build research as needed this turn, then units

(build more spies if we pop a GSpy?)
 
Pollina said:
HC has no Hindu and we can't easily build a missionary without a monastery. Stealing RP and Rifling without the religion mod doesn't seem worth it to me, unless we pop a GSpy.

I'm leaning towards 12C + steal Optics next turn + Vassalage, but I could go either way really.
Click to expand...

We could just gift Bovino w/3 spies in it, steal RepParts, Rifling recapture same turn. If we've slowly starved the city, then it's no big deal that we get an empty food bin on recapture. Maybe a building loss? I can't recall.

Unless we get some huge $$ advantage for vassalage, I don't want to do it just for 2xp. That doesn't sound like the 'fast' way to finish. It just means 1 more unit out of 50 will survive/win its battle. Zzzz.

We should be planning to whip/starve/draft every city and turn them into as many units as possible. I think we will regret it if we don't have slavery/nationhood. This is our last chance to switch to slavery (unless we think 1t anarchy it worth it.)

Warning: without slavery and/or drafting, we have no way to get emergency units.

Example in final 10 turns of the game:
A city that produces 1 unit every other turn. (5 units in 10 turns)
That same city should be able to get ~10 units in 10 turns. 2-3 drafts, 2-3 whips.

I would think at least 40 extra units that we could never make in the last 10 turns.
 
Pollina said:

- ~30% EP slider on Hannibal for city visibility
Click to expand...


Is that enough EPs for Optics? and then what about flipping him out of caste?
Seems like no-slavery for Hanni is going to be the faster way to rip thru him. Caste just means we will lose the culture discount in case we want to steal Paper, PP. But couldn't we just steal those from Brennus--super cheap? if we steal them at all.
 
WastinTime said:
We could just gift Bovino w/3 spies in it, steal RepParts, Rifling recapture same turn. If we've slowly starved the city, then it's no big deal that we get an empty food bin on recapture. Maybe a building loss? I can't recall.

Unless we get some huge $$ advantage for vassalage, I don't want to do it just for 2xp. That doesn't sound like the 'fast' way to finish. It just means 1 more unit out of 50 will survive/win its battle. Zzzz.

We should be planning to whip/starve/draft every city and turn them into as many units as possible. I think we will regret it if we don't have slavery/nationhood. This is our last chance to switch to slavery (unless we think 1t anarchy it worth it.)

Warning: without slavery and/or drafting, we have no way to get emergency units.

Example in final 10 turns of the game:
A city that produces 1 unit every other turn. (5 units in 10 turns)
That same city should be able to get ~10 units in 10 turns. 2-3 drafts, 2-3 whips.

I would think at least 40 extra units that we could never make in the last 10 turns.
Click to expand...

WastinTime said:
Is that enough EPs for Optics? and then what about flipping him out of caste?
Seems like no-slavery for Hanni is going to be the faster way to rip thru him. Caste just means we will lose the culture discount in case we want to steal Paper, PP. But couldn't we just steal those from Brennus--super cheap? if we steal them at all.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking along the same lines. How can we wrap this up asap? What is asap? 20t? Forget more techs, focus on TotalWar. Our biggest enemy might be WW. Nationhood will help. We'll want to wipe out Gil in 2 turns cuz of WW. Probably sooner than later, because he's teching Emancipation. Maybe put eps on Gil for that reason and send a spy to Eridu (or whatever it is).

We might not even have time to DoP Brennus, because wiping him out will requires some movement turns.
 
WastinTime said:
We could just gift Bovino w/3 spies in it, steal RepParts, Rifling recapture same turn. If we've slowly starved the city, then it's no big deal that we get an empty food bin on recapture. Maybe a building loss? I can't recall.
Click to expand...
How many turns would rifling save us? How much would our victory date be delayed by having to move 22 units into Rome again, when they could be doing something useful elsewhere?

I don't see us use a lot of 1-movers against Hanni and the AIs in our west. Rifles could have some use against Brennus/Gilga, but would they even reach the front in time to make a difference?

Unless we get some huge $$ advantage for vassalage, I don't want to do it just for 2xp. That doesn't sound like the 'fast' way to finish. It just means 1 more unit out of 50 will survive/win its battle. Zzzz.

We should be planning to whip/starve/draft every city and turn them into as many units as possible. I think we will regret it if we don't have slavery/nationhood. This is our last chance to switch to slavery (unless we think 1t anarchy it worth it.)

Warning: without slavery and/or drafting, we have no way to get emergency units.
Click to expand...
Vassalage is maybe 7 gpt cheaper than Nationhood. Not a huge difference. Extra happiness pre-drafting would probably make up for it.

I don't have a strong opinion on Vassalage vs. Nationhood. Being able to draft is nice for sure. Muskets are just so underwhelming. Would they make a difference?
 
WastinTime said:
Is that enough EPs for Optics? and then what about flipping him out of caste?
Seems like no-slavery for Hanni is going to be the faster way to rip thru him. Caste just means we will lose the culture discount in case we want to steal Paper, PP.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with switching Hanni to Caste if we are done teching. That means no Optics/caravels. Big loss?
 
War analysis

After removing Hannibal's best cities, we'll have several fronts we need to fight simultaneously.
Brennus + Gil (mainland)
This is the hardest fight. We probably need 8-10 Cannons + 20 kill units for the initial battle. Then we can split stacks - Grens can lead the cannonless half of the stack through Verlamion and Tolosa, while the Cannons hit Vienne and then Bibracte. Our galleys can then transport some of the slow-movers around to Eridu to catch the Cuirs.

If we don't get a city from Brennus, I don't think we can afford to DoP - just CF.

Nibru is the easiest of our cities to raze of we need to.

Gil islands
We need maybe 6 units per island to be safe. We can build these at the very end of the game - we just need to keep some galleys alive.

Hannibal's iceballs
One Cuir mini-stack is enough for these.

Northern Darius
Southern Darius + Sal
These two areas are an interesting challenge. The slow movers in Lali could be useful for the very northern reaches, if we add a cannon or two and/or upgrade a couple praets. Then our Cuirs can sweep south from Addis and west from Hannibal.
I'm not sure what needs to start from Mecca/Damascus. Mecca would probably build its own mini-stack for Sal's capital.
 
Info -- Hanni City Visibility

Our T199 1390AD save looks inside Hanni's cities.
T204 1440AD save still shows city visibility for Carthage and most other cities. First turn after he upgraded his muskets mace/sword/pikes to grens.

I doubt we're going to see more than 4-5 defenders in Carthage on the turn we land because he's sending his units to fight Darius. Note also that Hanni hasn't been building caravels in great numbers. Don't see any around Carthage back then.

Edit: This is why I have been thinking eps on Hanni is unnecessary.

.
 
Pollina said:
I'm fine with switching Hanni to Caste if we are done teching. That means no Optics/caravels. Big loss?
Click to expand...

Ugh, I didn't realize we had to give up Optics. Bummer, we didn't plan that too well. I could go either way. I suppose if I had to decide what the fastest finish option is, I would have to pick Caste/no Optics. It means:
1) Hanni can't whip grenadiers, etc.
2) we don't have to waste hammers on caravels.
3) we don't have to put EPs on Hanni right now.

We're going to hit Hanni so fast he'd only be able to whip 0-1 units per city, but still that sounds like the slower option.

We can get caravels eventually, but just not in time for the Hanni attack. Sounds like we are not going to DoW 210, 211, or even 212, so if we're waiting there is little danger to our galleys. We can afford to lose a couple empty ones. I love that the empty ones defend first.
 
Brennus/Gil will almost surely get DefPact, yes? So couldn't we DoP Brennus for cash, then DoW Gil when we want to break the deal? And if they don't get the Pact, we can hit Gil first and Brennus can surely wait until T220 DoW without delaying our final win date.
 
We have to decide where we want to attack Brennus from. The 7 Cuirs on the BrEast can all teleport nextt turn over to Nibru. The grens can't make it.
 
WastinTime said:
Brennus/Gil will almost surely get DefPact, yes? So couldn't we DoP Brennus for cash, then DoW Gil when we want to break the deal? And if they don't get the Pact, we can hit Gil first and Brennus can surely wait until T220 DoW without delaying our final win date.
Click to expand...
When was the last time you, personally, fought rifles on a hill? :) I wouldn't underestimate Brennus and his hill rifles. Any battles with cannons need to start sooner than later. That's Camulo, Bibrachte, and Tolosa, all on hills. Plus, Brennus will just build and upgrade more rifles, the more time we give him. He's the sole unit spammer in this scenario.

ZPV said:
> We probably haven't done enough damage to Brennus that he'll give us a city for peace, but it doesn't hurt to pull our wounded units back to Rome to heal there and ask him (not saying yes until giving HC away).
Click to expand...
As far as I know, it doesn't work this way. We can't know his answer without committing ourselves to "Would you accept this deal?" So we would have to fill Rome with units, gift away HC, then possibly find out the answer is "Drop dead, bugger."


.
 
You can ask "what would you give for peace" and he will offer a city if we have enough success. No need to commit.
You could ask now if you want to see what he says and then carefully say 'nevermind'.
But I think the chance is 0.00000001%, so don't waste any time/effort on this idea.
 
ZPV, my calculator with us threatening a Brennus city and having captured Durno with 2 losses shows:

we pay 280
Brennus pays 5790

Is that enough for Tolosa?

That's based on these unofficial stats:
OurWarSuccess: 437
HisWarSuccess: 99
Our Cities: 11
His Cities: 5
Our Pop: 135
His Pop: 80
OurPower: 1526 (T209 stats)
HisPower: 876 (T209 stats and assuming he's still the top AI, which might be wrong)
OurLand: 210 (T209 stats)
HisLand: 118 (T209 stats)
 
WastinTime said:
You can ask "what would you give for peace" and he will offer a city if we have enough success. No need to commit.
You could ask now if you want to see what he says and then carefully say 'nevermind'.
But I think the chance is 0.00000001%, so don't waste any time/effort on this idea.
Click to expand...
Okay, I did that, except I prefer to Clear Table first. :D

He doesn't offer a city yet. Just some gold, maps, gpt, and 3 virgins. That leaves Mitchum out of the mix.
 
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