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[BTS] SGOTM 24 Dancing Bears

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Okay ending turn now. See what happens with GP.

    We got a great priest.

    Do we mind running engineer in TF?? For now I removed it. Need to decide science rate this turn for currency.

    Uploading.

    So when to whip settler? 25OF this turn. Maybe 35 next.
    Workers road pigs.
    Settler to hill. Warrior to hill first.
    Add back engineer to TF? With coastal tile it grows 1 turn faster.
    All coastal tiles near cow are fogbust without warrior?
    Land Warrior in east on grassland hill next turn.

    Science 80% this turn?

    Well TF takes 13 turns with no engineer. Otherwise mix of GM GS and GE. Hmmm.

    Yep micro on capital.

    Can't run science at 90% as we lose 4 gold. 70% and we don't get 1 turn. Hmmm

    1 turn with science at 80% and no science builds?
    So capital barracks and Tundra lib?
    Good idea for prophet and war 5.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  2. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Whamo 1S Warrior4 NW Warrior5>Doublecorn.

    Good luck :thumbsup:
     
  3. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Oh well, we tried with Cap gp ;)
    Can be golden age person.

    We will have to think about some things before playing on now imo, like gp plan in fishx3.
    Also we now know no x-bows soon with machinery bulb.

    micro
    Spoiler :
    Did not check science, we need some micro first.
    southsea library whip, Cap taking tundra furs for Engi.
    Clam island settler.

    Yep on pigs road.
    War 5 can move towards fishx3, can be our unit we load on the galley when it's coming back.

    Prophet can move towards Sir Barks, replacing him as fogbust unit and dog can be city guard somewhere.

    80% will work fine yup, just need to know if we still need science builds in Cap and TH.

    I guess it's fine with Engi used in fishx3, since we got none now we would still be fine with a small chance.

    Okay sure, science builds only if needed.

    Good point that cornx2 still has time for 2 pop whip next turn, so let's not whip this turn.
    Did you whip ss lib?

    Yup can upload before ending turn if you want.
    ss whip is very much needed, we can start using scientists next turn.

    Yep for TH library, and settling on hill.
    WB does not matter this turn i think.

    Sounds like green ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    No not done whip yet. So that would effect science. I can play on the above moves and report back before ending turn?

    Okay let me play out above moves and whips. Back in a few mins once done.

    Yes we needed science from capital. 1 science in it at 80%.

    With engineer in TF we definately need it.

    TH library??

    Engineer in TF slows down growth.

    Switched clams to settler too. Still 1 turn currency.

    WB could head 1 south and back north again. I assume settler will settle on the hill.

    Green to end turn? I can't think of anything major here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Okay uploading in 1 min.

    I will need to get ready in a bit.

    Growth vs scientists in Capital and Southsea. I think I prefer growth. We could also swap over fur and deer to speed up capital growth.

    Yep 50 gold overall. Plus 1 gold for trade from Stalin. 20 and 30g is not much gold really. How he still lacks farming is a joke.

    Okay pause for now. I put COL as place holder tech. Unclear when we would actually use caste. Hardly ready for a golden age.

    Maths and HG is interesting. Fail gold plus an extra pop in 9-10 cities? Of course we might be able to trade for it at some point?

    Novograd building a wonder?? 1244 for sabotage?

    Have a good night. Won't be back till very late.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Yup we have to stop now anyways, new tech and so.
    Nice gold we can get from Stalin and Bis for those cheap techs.

    Bye for now, well played :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  7. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Shame about Prophet but not really a surprise. We've been lucky with Wonders so shouldn't complain too much. Maybe one of our neighbours will found a religion for us.

    Overall not in bad shape despite that. Bits of micro for fiddling but nothing major at the moment.

    Looks like we've run out of multi resource sites available peacefully.

    We need to decide on exact location of Cow Corner. PH is probably best because of the bonus hammer and we still want more forests.

    Big decision has to be research path. For military HbR or maths>construction. I'm guessing this has priority over optics. I'd be thinking cats. Also need to consider unit types to go with cats, we'll need iron back regardless but we're probably not yet ready for a build up so finish off infra and mp warriors first, we can also build wealth of course.
     
  8. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Hmmm, prophet. Well, we might have gotten lucky with the engineer, was worth trying. We will find a use for him, golden age or shrine or something.

    Will look at the save and comment more later.
     
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Yep not easy on military, depends how fast we want this land
    Spoiler :
    Will not be easy deciding what we tech, CoL could give us an earlier Reli that spreads more than with waiting for Tao.
    Then there's machinery still also, for x-bows and towards Astro.

    I think worrying about Stalin is not needed, there's much we can do still with diplo (he should be pleased soon, if not a tech gift would surely do so).
    Also his ways are long. It's much better building defense only when no other options are left, or we did something we not wanted to do with our cities out of panic :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  10. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    With Stalin in war mode, I think we need to be worried about keeping the land we already have, rather than conquering AI lands. We are by far the weakest in power of Stalin's possible targets, so we are very likely to be his planned victim. Bismarck is not reachable by land so is much less likely to be a war target, and Stalin's relations with Darius are approximately the same as with us. I think we should expect to see a Russian attack fairly soon.

    Stoney is sitting empty, with no garrison unit at all. :( Stalin has horses, so a chariot can roll out of the darkness and take the city with ease. :( We need some units there, as it is the choke point to control/prevent access to the rest of our lands.

    Machinery is an option -- protective crossbows would provide defense Stalin should have little chance of breaking. Walls in Stoney might also be worth thinking about -- very very cheap with protective + stone. Of course, we would need a unit there for walls to do any good.

    For cows city, I like the plains hill. Do hills affect the chance of forest spread? Would we want to mine the hills available for the cow site? With a plains hill center, three hills to mine, and plains cows it would have quite decent hammer potential
     
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If we were that worried about Stalin we could simply bribe him to stop trading with Persians. A bad idea really. Yep in these games Ai going war mode means very little. It will take him an age to build up any real stack. Even then it will move at speed of slowest unit. Is losing Stone city really a big disaster? In grand scheme of things no. We should play our own game here.

    Speed of war and effectiveness of war is key here. 2mp galley won't move quick enough. 4-5MP galleons have a big impact. What unit would take down the AI the quickest? What techs would we be willing to tech to reach that unit that could conquer map? I still think astronomy is key here. Seen it on so many previous SGOTM games. I have seen games where they played Sb just for TP and archers. The XB is not amazing even with 4-5xp+. Maybe with a mix of phants, xbow, axe, trebs and swords. Top teams normally try to grab trebs asap?

    Main downside to machinery is if we get another GE. I doubt we could wait 10 turns here. Maybe xbow, phants, swords and trebs would work well? We would also need construction for this?

    COL / Philosophy - Remember we can't tech techs that lead to paper. So has to be philosophy or COl for conf. We are quite late for COL. Religion will help with GPPts. Albeit with our traits that is less so important to get final 100% bonus. This won't help conquer the map but it does speed up GP production.

    Maths -With HG wonder will be difficult to max fail gold as we are unlikely to build many aqueducts. We are quite late to maths and would need to whip an aqueduct somewhere? Maths does help with construction. 10 free pop is useful. Maths also leads to calendar/construction. Albeit we could trade for these?Calendar is very useful for the corn island with 4 dye. Of course if we want engineering then delaying maths makes no sense. Gives time for GE chance in TF? Unlikely?

    Aesthetics route here has less value. We already have a GP for golden age. Aesth/lit could be a distraction from bulbing strategies??

    Anyway lots of idle thoughts.
     
  12. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    We are discussing conquering the world, but we have no army. We have, what? One dog soldier and a few garrison warriors? It would not take much of a stack to cause a lot of trouble right now, since even a warrior can walk into an empty city. Stalin does have a scout moving around our territory, so he knows how weakly defended our cities are.

    Agree that Hanging Gardens are not a good option for fail gold, due to aquaduct prereq. Math has been known to at least one AI for some time, so if we want it we probably need to start working on the aquaduct somewhere now. Not sure if it is worth it. Growing pop is one thing we do pretty well already, given our food; more than we have happiness for already, in places.

    Math opens several useful techs, with Calendar (dyes city) or Construction (cats, maybe elephants although we would need HBR too). Code of Laws might give us a religion, and would allow courthouses to reduce costs and add another specialist slot, plus more EP. Machinery for crossbows, if we want them.
     
  13. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    There's an interesting tech way i did not think about yet, but hmm it's not so bad..
    Guilds is not cheap in any way, and Feuda also rather annoying.

    But after that things would get interesting.
    Scime, PP, Edu would all be blocked if no paper techable.
    Engineering & Gunpowder & Chemistry (besides Astro) would become bulbable, all techs we need for Biology.

    So if we could create enuf great scientists, maybe that's making up for teching Guilds?
    Main reason would ofc be Knights, the better HAs.

    Could probably also add not self teching maths & HBR as discount towards guilds & Feuda, should all become tradeable while teching other ways.
    Ofc we would also hope that we get Monarchy from trade while on Machinery.

    Also very interesting, if we get Engis instead of Scientists they can bulb Engineering or..Feuda.
    Spoiler :

    Machinery
    Assembly Line
    Industrialism
    Combustion
    Metal Casting
    Mining
    Iron Working
    Engineering
    Replaceable Parts
    Steam Power
    Steel
    Robotics
    Railroad
    Feudalism

     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  14. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Lots to consider at this point and a lot of unknowns as well. One of the big unknowns comes from having mixed GP pools, Doublecorn gets next GP, roughly 50% GE/GS. GE would be a straightforwards machinery bulb I assume (though could rush Colossus), GS would depend on our next tech choice: maths if we don't get it first of course, maybe philo w CoL, maybe compass(unlikely), maybe save for optix if we go for compass/machinery ourselves. After that Triplefish gets next GP, mix of GM/GS with a dash of GE points. GM TM for 100% research. Gs for? GE for?

    If we want cheesy failgold exploit stuff we have option of Moia in coastal cities. We'd have to complete it ourselves at some point to get the loot but at least we'd get to choose when we do so.

    If Stalin and Darius have a little war that's likely to mess up their research which isn't bad in itself but might leave Bismark as our only trade partner and its obviously harder to trade for monopoly techs.

    One area we do have more control over is whether we delay war until astro+guilds/eng or go for earlier limited war v Darius and Stalin with cat+wotever. This is the decision that will determine our immediate tech choices.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  15. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    I am looking more at Engineering or Feuda (for Knights) bulbs if we get an Engi, Machinery would be something we can tech until we know cos we already have nice research power.

    x-bows, few Pikes against mounted + Trebs should be untouchable for those AIs.
    Knights would be fast. I think that's why using whips for Jumbocats does not look super attractive currently, when we add long ways and not very impressive land (any great city besides Persepolis? Cannot find something).

    Morning haph :)
    We might get some trade possibilities, i also like machinery for that (+ we could start building some x-bows if we use Trebs instead of Knights). It's a tech we know there will be no trade for, while 1 AI already has maths and 1 hbr so we might get lucky with one of those.

    Trebs or Knights are armies we can probably use for all AIs.
    Whip anger should be the limiting factor, while hammer cost does not matter so much with high food cities so 80-90h cost (less for our forge cities) would be okay.

    If AIs would be closer with tempting cities, Elecats would probably be best.
    But it's not really so here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  16. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Morning, Mylene. (Well, it is morning where I am, anyway. :lol:)

    We would have to trade for horses, which would mean having our supply cut off when we declared war. Hopefully we would be able to conquer a source fairly quickly, but established culture could make it tough to gain control of the needed tiles unless we manage to crush both Darius and Stalin in the first wave. If we are planning to have cats (or better trebs), then having a few elephants in our forces for anti-mounted purposes could be useful. They make matchups harder for the enemy, which is always useful. Some pikes and crossbows in the unit mix would also help for flexibility and matchups. Maybe we build a bit of everything?

    If we want to plan for knights later, we will want HBR anyway. And elephants will upgrade to cuirassiers later, which can be useful for any veteran units we develop.

    Anyway, some military of some kind seems to be in the not-to--distant future, once we have settled all our good sites and developed our cities a bit more. I hope Stalin does not force our time table to get rushed by emergency.

    Edit 1: Machinery does look good here. I do not know how likely it is that we will see an AI willing to trade Math or HBR, but it is possible. Stalin being so backward hurts here, as it reduces the percentage known for Darius and Bismarck. :( And Bismarck we do not know if he has contact with anyone else, although since he still has no religion it seems unlikely.

    Edit 2: Faster naval movement would be helpful. We do not know if circunav can be done with just galleys. Optics and caravels may be needed to complete circumnav, and maybe to find the remaining AIs as well. Tech path to get there is not otherwise very useful in the short term, though. :(

    Things to do this afternoon, so I will not be able to check the thread again until late.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  17. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Unlike last sgotm most of the troop movement/invasion/reinforcement is going to be by sea so extra move for mounted is less important. We need engineering for chemistry line, we don't need guilds as we can get gunpowder through education. Cuirassiers seems like a huge tech detour. Circumnav will be helpful.
     
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Machinery now makes a lot of sense if we think the other techs would soon be tradeable? Do you need HBR for Guilds??

    Fact is 1mp units will be weak here. With strong bulbs we could easily push deeper into the tech tree.

    Really not worried about Persians controlling the horse. We would have a big enough stack by time we declare anyway. We may not have any units yet but with 10-11+ cities you soon whip 10-20 units. Having galleons at the ready will speed up our army movements across sea. Engineering too by roads.
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Maybe if we agree on Machinery, we should plan our next turns and delay the unit decision for some time?

    Only HAs or Maths - Construction would be a different path for earlier units, but i have troubles seeing this being good here.

    Look in one of my earlier posts please, Pigswill.
    Engis can also bulb Engineering or Feuda, so we should not look at bulbing Machinery cos we also can use something to tech now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  20. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Don't need HbR for Guilds (though you do need horses, iron, Guilds and HbR for Knights). Guilds needs feudalism (monarchy) and machinery.

    If we're not looking at cat wars and we are looking more towards astronomy +eng or guilds I might suggest compass next ( :confused: ). Our next GP will be either GE or GS. If its a GE we bulb machinery and research optix, if a GS we research machinery and bulb optix. Maybe northern AIs will be better tech trade partners. (we still needs maths before optix bulb but it could/should be available by then).
     

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