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[BTS] SGOTM 24 Dancing Bears

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Quite a pile of units Toku has sitting in Satsuma. :( Most of them are junk, fortunately. But he has enough that it will take time to kill them all, and our units will take damage in the fighting and need time to heal even if we do not lose (m)any. Hopefully we will suicide some of them into our stack on the nice high defense forested hill.

    Good point about deciding which Japanese cities we want to keep. Useful resources we do not already have and Hagia Sophia will help us a lot, otherwise we just need to get as much land as possible. Maybe if some captured cities have useful infra we keep them? Revolt time is a pain, but each city we can keep saves us a settler and transporting it north.
     
  2. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Been looking at current game and making some guesstimates.

    i) We now have 17 workers, with a dozen or so working on FPs (optimistic assumption that we'll get some forest growth and capture HS within 15-20 turns) we should get 50FPs within 30 turns, maybe less.
    ii) we currently have 15 trebs, 17xb, 5 spear/pike, 3 sword, 15 misc. We're building 2 trebs, 3 wellies and a HA(?). We have 9 galleons for transport. We have 7 Japanese and 2-3 indian cities to capture up north and 6 Russian and 2-3 Persian cities down south. Assuming some stack splitting later on, 3-4 turns per city so 35-40 turns.
    iii) We have another 10,000+ beakers of research (gunpowder, chem, lib, biology) making optimistic assumptions we'll get philo in trade and win lib race. We've still got a 12turn GA and capture gold but I'm not sure how many turns research will take. I'm assuming we'll want to keep Russian cities to stop Bismark settling so city maintenance will increase further. If we can average 250bpt we're looking at about 40 turns research. Given our current economy this could be a problem.
     
  3. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    pigswill, I believe the HA in production is intended for the latest GG so we have a high-mobility super medic.

    Interesting thoughts on time required for our big objectives. Research (and thus the economy) looks like it will be the biggest problem, rather than the fighting or the forest preserves. But we do have a bit more time needed than just the fighting to prepare for domination -- we will need to build and send out settlers (and some escort units, since some settlers will need to head for open land where barbs could spawn) for the final land grab. And once we have Medicine we need to get the whole world running environmentalism and start the turn counter.

    I think we are safe on getting Liberalism -- last I checked (I should recheck this!) none of the AIs had Education. So even though Gandhi has Philosophy there is no real chance he will get to Liberalism.

    We may also need to do some fighting in the unknown barb regions, to allow us to claim the land we need. But this can be done quite late, once we have dealt with the AIs other than Asoka and Bismarck. So hopefully our existing military can be redirected to this task. Having enough galleons to move everything where it needs to go is likely to be a problem.

    We will get city capture gold as we continue conquering the AIs we intend to fight. That will help with keeping the economy going. But it is going to be a struggle to generate enough research to finish the techs we need quickly.
     
  4. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    I am more optimistic about research :)
    Golden Age will be huge again, and this time 12 turns.
    Currently we are / were still working on getting units & workers out, but that can hopefully change soon.
    Rep specialists give constant amounts of research, we will have to hire more again once unit needs slow down.

    Agree with you that 2 workers probably for Toku, and chaining 5 back home.
    Also keeping russian cities will be needed yup, cannot lose land to Bis.
    Yep our galleons north will have to spread out again.

    Will start to micro our save a bit soon, let's see where we stand with cities.
     
  5. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    One consideration is that we need to grow cities to run multiple specialists and we can't grow and whip at the same time. I'm wondering how many more units we'll need because ideally we'd reach all our objectives around the same time.
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Uploaded, there's a small issue with our Cat for Moscow stack.
    After doing cities and other stuff i looked there, and it was already out of movement points.
    Not sure what happened there, but i did not click anything hmm.
    I would probably leave 1 bow behind to protect, but wanted to look for opinions first (2 standing there currently).

    City details, i whipped worker in long island.
    Galleon has time until it's needed for our next transport (was thinking HA general, Cowtown Jumbo & Archer on dyeisland), and can deliver him into cowtown next turn.

    Cap using 2 scientists and waiting with Treb whip, no galleon space currently.
    Southsea to use overflow for 1 pop whip worker (still has pop for scientists).
    TH slow building one in 3t, gives us another scientist.
    Stoney using mine for 1t Treb, i think it's important getting those last units from here out quicker cos of the longer way.

    IC 2 merchants.
    Persepolis CH whipped.
    In Tarsus & Susa i was thinking we can get 2 last units for east, forming a 2nd stack with our guys in Rostov (+treb arriving from Ectabana). So Tarsus using overflow for x-bow, and Susa whipped it's Jumbo.

    Currently +437 beakers and gunpowder in 4t, not too bad without golden age.
    ------
    We could promote bow 6 with formation, and protect Cat.
    Or leave it behind, i think it's okay using that promo (Stalin has 1 HA).
    And move other bow to our stack.

    What's with all those questionmarks :b
    From above: In Tarsus & Susa i was thinking we can get 2 last units for east, forming a 2nd stack with our guys in Rostov (+treb arriving from Ectabana). So Tarsus using overflow for x-bow, and Susa whipped it's Jumbo.

    HA would most certainly kill our Cat if we leave it alone.
    Well i am thinking better be safe, it's mostly about keeping our units so we can use our cities for other stuff. That promo is rather unimportant.
    Guess we could plan to bombard Moscow first for one turn, and leave both bows with Cat.
    Giving 2 injured Trebs a healing break too.

    Okay are you playing Gumbo?
    (too complicated with the hill imo, haph)

    LI galleon has time, no units arrive next turn.
    Can ship worker first.

    Happy eating, i can finish this turn ;)

    Why would we pillage soon our horse ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Looks like the catapult has pillaged the road?

    Timed Ivory well. He has HBR now. Could of been an issue.

    12k science needed but 20% discount. Still got a 12 turn golden age to follow too.

    40 turns is max I would say. I think much sooner. As once wars are mostly done we can focus on specialists.

    Would the HA really attack it?? Especially in a mini stack? What is plan for Moscow? Strongest treb here has 60% odds. Albeit we are in no rush here?

    Should we be forming second stack from Rostov?? That could easilt kill off a city?

    Need a further GM somewhere???

    I mean't the xbow protecting the catapult. Certainly would not leave it alone.

    No harm in formation. Trebs will do most of the work here. 10% is just as good? Pends how many HA he starts to whip here? We do have a pike.

    I am eating but I can play? If you want to finish turn I can finish eating.

    Long island galleon needs to move east. 2x xbow stay on pult.

    Heal/bombard works well here.

    Yep don't over complicate a situation if a promo and one more xbow fix it.

    Time to pillage his horse?? Or move 2-3 units on it. Spear and bark??

    Well keep units covering it. Stop him from building HA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  8. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Running more specialists once unit/worker production needs are mostly past will help a lot. :) We will need to start producing settlers for the domination land grab, but there will be a window of time for that so we should be able to keep more specialists to push research.

    Edit 1: Maybe put one of the crossbows on the hill NW of Moscow? Russian HA could go long way around the lake, but could not get back into the city if it did attack and win. One less unit in city, and could be picked off easily if it did survive.

    Edit 2: Unfortunate that Toku is being smart and not sending his units to die. :(

    Stalin's units may be tasked with city defense; his stack of offensive units died earlier?

    Edit 3: Bismarck has 1 gold/turn available. Sell him another resource?

    Edit 4: More scouting of the barb area would be good.

    Toku stack is a problem. :( But Toku reaching protective longbows would be even worse. Could try to bypass Satsuma, lure his stack out, but unless he attacks us on defensive ground odds are not likely to be better.

    Busy afternoon for me, so I will try to check back later. Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Ugh Toku did not attack with anything..
    Neither did Stalin.

    8 units in Moscow, will use the bombard & heal plan.

    Gandhi giving us nothing for peace, but cease fire would be good so Delhi and canal city is safe. Green on that?

    Uploaded, tried doing most stuff.
    Afk 5mins or so :)
    (HA medic hidden under workers)

    Back.
    Hmm, it's not fully bombarded yet.
    + promo should be above 50% for best Treb later, then probably better.
    I think we cannot play many games there and just sacrifice some Trebs, if he gets longbows those archers will be really bad.

    Good eye on the resi haph :)

    My plan for Hyd (former gandhi island city) would be shrinking, and keep using wealth + citizen.
    Saves costs, gets at least a bit science and wealth.

    I think we should load 1 worker into our units galleon, for road below Satsuma.
    Load 3 others into a free one, bringing them home somehow.
    Use 1 galleon to scout barb area?

    Not sure if we should scout south with Cara, or do we trust there's no land.

    I think making sure with Cara is not bad.
    Susa can whip a scouting galleon next turn already, in better position and a bit quicker.
    Can also load in xtian maybe to help? Would be a good use.

    We could go east of Bremen, there's a bit more fog around our long island.

    Getting all of Toku, yep.
    We will prepare another 3 units after next turns transport..Treb whip in Cap, Jumbo from cornx2 and 1 pop whip in cowtown. Keeping chaining 3 units up until we have a better idea.

    Want me to finish this turn as well? Think we have everything.
    Okay, yep 1g.

    Keeping on Asoka for a bit more, we can see his research soon.
    That helps getting some gold maybe, or see if he techs Philo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yeah taking Toku city may be a pain. The 75% bonus is putting him off. We need a lot more units for him. Not suprised about Russians. Didn't exppect them to attack. His stack suicided last turn. 20+ units he has let die here.

    Green on ceasefire.

    What to do with Toku? Best treb is only 23% here. Albeit promo to follow. We can't afford to lose 4-5 trebs here on first city. We could move to hill and tempt him to attack in 1-2 turns??

    Yeah waiting on Toku with feud would be a disaster. We have no Ep to switch toku on civics. Albeit still possible. Guess we just have to take some losses here. We don't have the units to take the city in one turn either. Be at least 1 more turn before those 3 more trebs arrive. 2 before they can attack.

    Odds for xbow at present 9%.

    We have that spare caravel now. Could use galleon too I guess. Workers back to main land seems wise.

    8x50=400 worker turn min. Plus many tunrs moving workers too. Should have 15 workers soon near mainland. So about 30 turns if we had 50 forest all roaded.

    There would not be much land down south if there was, It's mostly ice. Could be a small island? Unlikely? Also if you look at fog there is no commerce around it. In fact you can see ocean on edge of the fog. Do we just explore all areas of map to play safe?

    So right now what is biggest issue for us?? The Toku war?? Preserves? or Tech?
    Russians should be gone in 15 turns or so excluding islands.
    Barb cities will be a pain but none with any real defenses?
    Workers should have ample time and we can whip plenty more.
    Science will be helped by GA. 30 turns seems beatable.

    My biggest worry seems to be Toku.

    You could swing south of German land and kill 2 birds with one stone. Not sure how clever map maker will be about the land here. As the last 1-2% land should not be intended as the tough goal. Toku is intended as the challenge on this map.

    Yep then I can take over. 1g trade? You could do the Moscow attack. Get it out of way next turn.

    EP on Toku?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    lol..Stalin had a Jumbo, and killed our x-bow in Rostov.
    But i will take that news any time for what Toku did..suiciding his whole stack including 1 Archer with no losses for us :)

    Taking my time on moscow, after bombard and our 2 good trebs attacking it's still not only cleanup here.

    Okay done, no losses here.

    Will upload so you guys can look, have not moved or done anything else.
    Uploaded.

    Asoka was on MC 2t, saw that with Espio.
    Maybe a good chance grabbing his 30g for that.

    I like Espio on Asoka for now, told us he techs MC this turn between turns = 30g.
    Not sure what they will do for us with Toku?

    Am thinking about the Satsuma attack.
    Will 4 Trebs + 1 bombard bring him down enuf?

    Keep imo, we can use a base (cease fire after taking).

    Not sure if 1 bombard or attack with all Trebs too.

    Can go wrong, like CR trebs not doing much damage on first attacks.
    I would say we wait, cos we can land 5 more units next turn.
    Then we have no questions if bombard, and have even more Trebs available.

    We are not gaining much by attacking this turn, afterwards we wait for our medic anyways.
    And the road probably too.

    Yep 1 temporal medic is okay.
    You can do some clear moves if you like (i will watch), but otherwise that was enuf for me today already. Busy day.

    Cowtown is doing Ele cos we need 1 pop whip here, not enuf for Treb.
    Agree on Treb in cornx2.

    Okay, early finish :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  12. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Worth waiting for reinforcements for Satsuma. 8 trebs will cause significant collateral, mop up with xbow, rise and repeat. With trebs its better to attack units in cities than lure them into countryside. Same principle with Moscow, albeit slightly easier. If we're going to lose trebs then we need to be building replacement trebs, other units not needed so much coz we won't lose too many.

    Crosspost demon (again).

    edit #1: maybe we won't need to wait for reinforcements after all. Hard to tell without a save ;).

    #2. Lots of promos available for xbs, 1 treb to bombard, 4 to attack. Looks enough. Besides which we need the loot to finish gunpowder. Keep or raze?

    #3. More eles? Trebs!
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Russians won a combat??? How dare they!!! I wonder how many jumbos he actually got out?? He could of traded for ivory?

    Pends what damage his units did to ours. I think we need to attack sooner than later.

    Russian main danger now is from phants and HA. We timed war well to just edge these out.

    Yep looking good here. We can promote the xbows and probably still attack here. Might lose 1-2 trebs but the rest should fall. Waiting a turn risks LB. 8 attackers vs 7 defenders.

    Will healing 1 turn do much here??

    EP Toku?? Or is this too late??

    I think at this point MC for 30 looks very good. Are you still playing?

    Would the weakened units stand a chance? We need that medic like 2 turns ago. The 5 trebs would weaken top 5 defenders heavily. The odds will likely not get much better. Hmmm.

    The downside is maybe that we don't have the units to hold it this turn??

    To se Toku Demo might of been useful. Average Ai power here is 221k or so. With Indians and Persians somewhere around 90-100k each. 386k for Germans. Leaving Japan, India and Russians. I figure Japan power will be 220-300k. He may have plenty of other units here.

    So create a medic xbow for now to help healing? Those 5-6 units can land this turn?

    Ultimately trebs will be key to wiping out Toku. Just need enough stack units to take out the fodder left behind.

    Maybe call it a day if you are tired? No point burning out on civ. I need to get an early night tonight. We have had 3 nights of solid civ now.

    Turns should start to get easier now as we are already in the end game here. deadline here is May 31st. Maybe 1 turn a day at worst.

    Yep early night and sleep. Good set and great results on 2 main combats.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  14. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Yup was nice on the main battles (i think we are lucky Toku attacked).

    Just had a maybe good idea, HA medic cannot land this turn but..
    galleons could bring him to a lake 1 tile away from our wounded bows.
    On land, super medics can heal in a radius of 1 tile around them..would be great if that works from sea too?
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes I think medic say adjacent tiles. So yes should work. Right off to bed. Night all.
     
  16. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    With regard to Russia we don't have to worry about eles . Bismark don't have ivory. Probably combine units from Rostov and Moscow into two equal stacks. We'll need galleons there pretty soon. One could be enough though might involve two trips.

    The economy is still not super impressive. We might be able to sneak another GM out of IC before the end of the game which would help a bit. We've got a few turns for growth assuming we want to leave GA for nearer the end to help with civic swaps.

    I'm guessing we'd vote for Bismark in AP elections for easy diplo, will be needed when we re-declare on Darius

    Have we done the combat v drill promo debate yet? I routinely promote protective archer units on the drill line.(but thats more intuitive than calculated).

    #1 Bismark will be Resident however we vote, no point voting against him or abstaining.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  17. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Good news on Toku throwing his stack at us. :) Stalin building elephants is not so good, but hopefully he can not manage many.

    Diplo boost with Bismarck by voting for him in AP could be useful. What is worst case? He could propose resolutions to stop wars, or to force city to be handed back, which we might have to defy if we could not block the vote. I need to check vote numbers in latest save.
     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Made some pics for our lurkers
    Spoiler :



    Hmm from my experience, Drill is only good once they reach IV.
    Cover against Archers will probably make a lot of sense for Toku x-bows.
    Trebs go first, but if he should get longbows at some point.

    Good question with IC gp, we could add scientists now or plan for 5t Caste during golden age and only merchants. Did not look at timing yet there, but i suspect we could not leave those Caste turns too late. Golden Age timing is overall interesting.

    X-bow in Tarsus can be whipped this turn, and we have a Treb there as well.
    Adding Treb, Jumbo and Spear from Rostov makes a nice mini stack for Yaroslav, but we should probably add a few units from our main stack as well.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  19. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Will work a bit on the obvious & already discussed stuff in our save where i was too tired yesterday, then upload new.

    Wave Gumbo, doing galleon chain currently to get our medic close and stuff like that saves us time later.
    Not sure it works thou..heal timers still look very long with medic close.

    Pic of scouting chariot before i move him into moscow (already attacked this turn, last moscow defender)
    Spoiler :
    Found 2 more workers, but we have no fast unit to capture anyways.

    Killed russian Jumbo with one of our Spears.

    Moved Treb & Archer in Tarsus close, protected by Jumbo against mounted.
    Other Rostov units can join via roads next turn.

    Uploaded.
    Toku, was still 2 bombards to do.
    Did not give promos yet.

    Cat was in bad position to attack, haph :)
    Had only 2 defenders for moscow.

    Oops forgot giving Asoka MC for 30g, ment to do that.

    Will go to next page.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Okay back from work. What are we doing?

    I should be in tonight.

    I'll go prepare food to save time later.

    Units to Toku and maybe no health promo for xbow if we have HA.
    Kill phant.
    Bombard if we can near Toku.
    2-3 defenders in Moscow.

    Tested and it does not work. I think other units would have to be at sea too.

    Yeah no point risking medic.

    Okay looking good so far.....
    So we need MC trade.
    Promo for Toku stack. Medic promo would be useful. xbow 16 looks ideal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017

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