[BTS] SGOTM 24 nostalgia

[AlanH]

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Good luck with the game, and - Enjoy!

Moderator Action: As requested, I have changed your team name to 'nostalgia' - AlanH

 

[sossos]

Reserve for general rules

Welcome to SGOTM 24

Because of language problems, we may need to use a lot of bilingual, and use automatic translation to facilitate non-native English speaking teammates. See how powerful artificial intelligence now.

Three rules
1, do not reload saved games
2, do not view other teams' posts
3, not yet thought of

Spoiler spoiler for Chinese readers :

因为语言关系，我们可能需要大量使用双语，并使用自动翻译，以方便并非以英语为母语的队友。看看现在人工智能有多强大吧。

约法三章
1、不往回读档
2、不看其他队伍的帖子
3、暂时还没想到

 

[sossos]

Reserve for team consensus

Here I don't mean to set rules as it's a game and the main purpose is to have fun. Let's take it as proposals and every team members can revise as needed.

1. You are the King when it's your turn to play. You can play based on your own judgments or you can collect inputs from other teammates before moving forward

Spoiler For Chinese Readers :

这里我不是要设置规则，因为它是一个游戏，主要目的是有乐趣。 让我们把它作为提案，每个团队成员可以根据需要进行修改。

你是国王，当你轮到你玩。 你可以根据自己的判断来玩，或者你可以在向前移动之前收集其他队友的提议。

 

[sossos]

Reserve for play schedule

As the game needs to be completed in 4 months and we may be able to complete the game in 200 turns, I simply schedule as below. It's just a plan and definitely will be adjusted.

till Feb 4: Warm-up
till Feb 11: T0~T15 Nano
till Feb 18: T16~T30 sos
till Feb 25: T31~T45 flag
till Mar 4: T46~T60 ob
till Mar 11: T61~T75 Nano
till Mar 18: T76~T90 sos
till Mar 25: T91~T105 flag
till Apr 1: T106~T120 ob
till Apr 8: T121~T130 Nano
till Apr 15: T131~T140 sos
till Apr 22: T141~T150 flag
till Apr 29 : T151~T160 ob
till May 6: T161~T170 Nano
till May 13: T171~T180 sos
till May 20: T181~T190 flag
till May 27: T191~T200 ob

 

[sossos]

Reserve for summary

 

[sossos]

Reserve for reference materials

Install BUFFY mod

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php

Great People Tech Prefences

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/great-people-tech-prefences.140952/

Forest growth mechanics

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/forest-growth-and-the-roads.295749/

The mechanics of the Apostolic Palace (AP)

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Apostolic_Palace_(Civ4)

 

[sossos]

Reserve for contents not determined

 

[sossos]

Reserve for contents not determined

 

[sossos]

This is the test file, but plz note that it's immortal, not emperor.
Change to Emperor test save now. Thanks, Flager

 

[sossos]

I still have some concerns about moving two steps to found the corn city: (autotranslation seems not so good, but anyway it can save time)
1, pay attention to the official file that two deer is 3 grain 1 hammer, after the development of 5 grain 1 hammer, not much worse than the corn
2, the capital directly to sit gem capital culture can take four resources, if it is behind the city to at least a square obelisk, the cost
3, cut a tree may not be equivalent to two rounds, but four rounds, because AI cut to the environment will cut system, so the tree is really careful to cut down the tree, usually only 2 rounds of trees to accelerate migration
4, if the capital to sit gems, one point to take double corn, followed by the city to kill all, two separate in the cattle there, do the fishing boat with the mine, then fishing vessels do not have to cut the tree, you can rely on dichotomy + kill population.
5, This map does not cut the tree, then grab the river meaning is not big. Of course, a river village is able to accelerate four rounds?

Spoiler For Chinese Readers :

我对移两步开玉米城还是有点疑问：
1、注意正式档那两头鹿是3粮1锤，开发后是5粮1锤，不比玉米差多少
2、直接坐宝石首都可以靠首都文化拿4个资源，如果是后面的城就至少要来个方尖塔了，成本升高
3、砍一棵树可能并非等价于两回合，而是四回合，因为AI切到环保后会切制度，所以砍树实在需慎重，通常砍树加速移民才2回合而已
4、如果首都坐宝石，一分拿双玉米，后面城全靠杀，二分开在牛那里，用矿做渔船，那么渔船就不用砍树了，可以靠二分造+杀人口。
5、这图不砍树的话，抢河意义就不大了。当然，一个河流村是否能加速4回合？

 

[nanoprince]

OK，here we list all the key points, as more as possible before we start.
And let's make sure each of them settled properly or in several feasible plans.

I'd like to list some points on fast winning.

1) About WINNING TYPE
The fastest winning type should be Domination.
Also the non-vassal setting makes domination a little bit tough, we may still make it at 220th turn or earlier.
That means we may stop the tech-tree just at medicine.
All the environmental-policy of the AI could easily influenced by spy, and medicine-tech could just be a nice present to AI.
If we have enough trees preservation for environmental-policy duration reduction, the game could be settled just at the domination-point.
220th turn may be possible

2) About forest preserves
target
a. at winning-turn： 45 forest preserves at home （-90 turns）
b. at winning-turn： 45 forest preserves overseas （-9 turns）
so that we can reach the min environmental-policy duration

In estimation，about 10 trees can grow 50 turns after Scientific Method.
In that case, we should control the cut-down number below 10 tree.

3) About some key tech and wonder
key wonders
a. the Pyramid —— for high-efficiency of SE economic
b. Global Sailing —— for high-efficiency of amphibious war
c. Kremlin （if we are lucky enough to have a Pyramid-Great Engeneer）
—— for high-efficiency of later-age slavery
d. Great Theater —— for every-turn draft of the most food-rich city

key techs
a. bronze & pottery —— for fast slavery with granary （40th turn？）
b. masonry —— for the Pyramid （50th turn？）
c. code of law & philosophy—— for a possible religion & better SE （100th turn？）
d. optics & astronomy —— for fast overseas expansion （135th turn？）
e. Scientific Method —— for forest preserves （170th turn？）
f. medicine —— for environmental-policy （220th turn？）
g. those military-techs —— depend on strategic resources and enemy information （start the war at 150turn and end at 220turn）

 

[nanoprince]

A good opening might be 7 cities with Pyramid to make an astronomy tech-rushing.

OK，here we list all the key points, as more as possible before we start.
And let's make sure each of them settled properly or in several feasible plans.

I'd like to list some points on fast winning.

1) About WINNING TYPE
The fastest winning type should be Domination.
Also the non-vassal setting makes domination a little bit tough, we may still make it at 220th turn or earlier.
That means we may stop the tech-tree just at medicine.
All the environmental-policy of the AI could easily influenced by spy, and medicine-tech could just be a nice present to AI.
If we have enough trees preservation for environmental-policy duration reduction, the game could be settled just at the domination-point.
220th turn may be possible

2) About forest preserves
target
a. at winning-turn： 45 forest preserves at home （-90 turns）
b. at winning-turn： 45 forest preserves overseas （-9 turns）
so that we can reach the min environmental-policy duration

In estimation，about 10 trees can grow 50 turns after Scientific Method.
In that case, we should control the cut-down number below 10 tree.

3) About some key tech and wonder
key wonders
a. the Pyramid —— for high-efficiency of SE economic
b. Global Sailing —— for high-efficiency of amphibious war
c. Kremlin （if we are lucky enough to have a Pyramid-Great Engeneer）
—— for high-efficiency of later-age slavery
d. Great Theater —— for every-turn draft of the most food-rich city

key techs
a. bronze & pottery —— for fast slavery with granary （40th turn？）
b. masonry —— for the Pyramid （50th turn？）
c. code of law & philosophy—— for a possible religion & better SE （100th turn？）
d. optics & astronomy —— for fast overseas expansion （135th turn？）
e. Scientific Method —— for forest preserves （170th turn？）
f. medicine —— for environmental-policy （220th turn？）
g. those military-techs —— depend on strategic resources and enemy information （start the war at 150turn and end at 220turn）

 

[sossos]

+1 again for the general strategy.

Here's Nano's plan of the first 40 turns.

5 grain 1 hammer itself is still a lot worse than the 6 grain; more importantly, 2 deer than the river 2 corn 2 gold, and the need to advance the development of hunting technology. More than 2 points will make the pottery will be slow about 10 rounds, the capital of granary slow 10 rounds of losses almost 60 hammer, almost a net less a worker. I have written in front of a circle should be north of the fish. Granary capital and granary 1 minute to form the initial dual-core engine. So the gem is 2 points, and not the empire of the engine, the development and not too fast, 2 points is responsible for upgrading the dual-core engine can be happy. Pottery technology should be followed by mystery, then fill a 30 hammer totem is not expensive.

For the spots of capitol and the 2nd city, I think I'm OK with Nano's plan. Let's name it plan A. I agree with every Pros of this plan listed by Nano and I have no concern if we start with this plan.

The points below is just for brainstorming. If we have enough time, we may play the test file and check the difference of plan A(start from corn site) and plan B(SIP)

1. About hunting tech. Can the commerce from 2 furs be beneficial to the bronze & pottery acquirement if the first settler is not whipped? Can it compensate for the hunting tech?
2. About the comparison of the city of 2 deer and 3 fishes. The city with 3 fishes needs a huge investment(90 hammers) to be a good engine(11 food surplus). Is it not better than the city of 2 deer(8 food surplus)? 90 hammers and 1 more pop(=30hammer) for 3 more food surplus seems not so profitable, and 2 of the 3 fishes are in the ocean. This is another comparison between 4 c and 2h, the capitol spot is better.
3. Anyway SIP is faster by 2 turns at the very beginning.

 

[sossos]

My one cent: after masonry, maybe we can oracle CoL for 1 more happiness. Even if it fails, we can still benefit from the fail gold.
We have too many food and libraries can only turn 2 citizens to specialists. The other way to turn food into commerce is overflow to wonders and we definitely need those commerce for those techs which cannot be bulbed.

 

[nanoprince]

OK， maybe SIP also works well.
Maybe a tests on a demo map will help us deal with accurate calculation.

Let’s try several plans and choose the best，and then optimize it further.

How about this suggestion?

+1 again for the general strategy.

Here's Nano's plan of the first 40 turns.


For the spots of capitol and the 2nd city, I think I'm OK with Nano's plan. Let's name it plan A. I agree with every Pros of this plan listed by Nano and I have no concern if we start with this plan.

The points below is just for brainstorming. If we have enough time, we may play the test file and check the difference of plan A(start from corn site) and plan B(SIP)

1. About hunting tech. Can the commerce from 2 furs be beneficial to the bronze & pottery acquirement if the first settler is not whipped? Can it compensate for the hunting tech?
2. About the comparison of the city of 2 deer and 3 fishes. The city with 3 fishes needs a huge investment(90 hammers) to be a good engine(11 food surplus). Is it not better than the city of 2 deer(8 food surplus)? 90 hammers and 1 more pop(=30hammer) for 3 more food surplus seems not so profitable, and 2 of the 3 fishes are in the ocean. This is another comparison between 4 c and 2h, the capitol spot is better.
3. Anyway SIP is faster by 2 turns at the very beginning.

 

[sossos]

(auto translation to save time)

surrounded by 4 trees + no way + preserve area of the tree probability is 3.2%, if calculated by 50 rounds, so how much can grow out of the grid cut, so cut the tree will cut into the kind of chess on the best. This cut trees to see the upper limit to accurately calculate the next.
Take the initial map to see if the nature reserve built, the initial tree growth rate per round probability is 29.6%, if several trees are chopped, the initial probability of growth is increasing instead of decrease, to 40% to 50%, of course, The probability will drop after the tree grows, the average may be 20% to 30%, 50 rounds should be able to grow 10 to 15 trees
Count before the round of 170 (odds divided by 8) there are 4 to 6 trees can grow, so I think the first 50 rounds cut 15 trees is no problem.

Spoiler For Chinese Readers :

周围4棵树+无路+保护区的生树几率是3.2%，如果按50回合计算，这样的格子砍多少都能长出来，所以砍树就要砍成国际象棋那种样子就最好。这样看砍树上限要精确计算下.
拿我们这个初始图看，如果自然保护区建好，每回合初始长树几率是29.6%，如果当中挖几个空出来，初始几率其实不降反升，可以到40%~50%，当然长树后几率会下降，平均可能在20%~30%，50回合应该可以长10~15棵
算上170回合前（几率除以8）也有4~6棵树会长，这样我觉得前50回合砍15棵是没问题的。

 

[sossos]

Red box is meaningless to grow forest, but to enhance the odds if they are chopped, can be preferentially cut off. Excluding the two city spots, a total of 11,
Yellow box can only offer an insignificant increase of 0.8% probability of growth, if we keep the 2 at the north, then just a total of 15 red and yellow, if greedy, then 17 trees

 

[nanoprince]

Let's discuss another big chance —— culture rate and theater.
The home continent has excessive food and health，overwhelming to happiness even though we have Pyramid representation and a religion （about 10 in the largest cities）.
For a 7-city opening on this map, most of the cities will have 2 food resources or more，so ideal cities pop target should 8-11 pops with 4-7 specialists and 2-3 slavery unhappiness in city.

That would require 12-14 happiness total for the 5 largest cities. So 20% culture rate with theater may be a promising option.

Of course, it depends on some accurate calculate result, considering the bottles and hammers invest of the upper tech-tree line.

 

[nanoprince]

Actually, the chance of theater-culture rate is born together with the Pyramid-representation. The 6 bottles-specialists will make the every-turn invests in culture rate amazingly profitable！

Let's discuss another big chance —— culture rate and theater.
The home continent has excessive food and health，overwhelming to happiness even though we have Pyramid representation and a religion （about 10 in the largest cities）.
For a 7-city opening on this map, most of the cities will have 2 food resources or more，so ideal cities pop target should 8-11 pops with 4-7 specialists and 2-3 slavery unhappiness in city.

That would require 12-14 happiness total for the 5 largest cities. So 20% culture rate with theater may be a promising option.

Of course, it depends on some accurate calculate result, considering the bottles and hammers invest of the upper tech-tree line.

Let's discuss another big chance —— culture rate and theater.
The home continent has excessive food and health，overwhelming to happiness even though we have Pyramid representation and a religion （about 10 in the largest cities）.
For a 7-city opening on this map, most of the cities will have 2 food resources or more，so ideal cities pop target should 8-11 pops with 4-7 specialists and 2-3 slavery unhappiness in city.

That would require 12-14 happiness total for the 5 largest cities. So 20% culture rate with theater may be a promising option.

Of course, it depends on some accurate calculate result, considering the bottles and hammers invest of the upper tech-tree line.

 

[sossos]

About the theater
Pyramids can support the population to 9 to 10(with religion). I think it is enough, taking 3-fish city as example, 3 fish +7 specialist =10 population. Theater is an investment of average 100 c 50 h for 2c/pop (with 20 food for each pop) , not so good. Of course, after we finish astronomy, we can consider it. Maybe it can be traded. The importance of Astronomy is because of trade routes and war. We should have consensus about the ROI of war already

I may still keep a door open for diplomatic victory. Physics/Electricity can be bulbed with a gain of great scientist. Radio can be obtained from liberalism. Mass media can be bulbed by great merchant and the united nation can be built with great engineer. In my opinion it may be faster than domination victory.