[BTS] SGOTM 24 Pre-game Discussion - Sitting Bull

[ChrisShaffer]

I think building 40 or 50 forest preserves is quite a bit easier than the radiation challenge. That was a monster of micromanagement, this will be hard but not as crazy.

 

[Rusten]

Interest in a particular SG is high at the beginning and then wanes if it drags on. Interest after a SG concludes is high, perhaps because people want to improve their performance, then wanes. Waiting for months for the next one to begin, especially when you're talking about a game that in itself is aging and losing players, is a recipe for failure.

Yup. It's been almost 5 months since the last one ended. I wouldn't blame anyone for losing interest over such a long period. Perhaps even more so if they were clamouring for a new game right away.

Personally I'm still interested and would like to play, but it's not possible for me this time around, unfortunately.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think building 40 or 50 forest preserves is quite a bit easier than the radiation challenge. That was a monster of micromanagement, this will be hard but not as crazy.

40? Hm...I'm still trying to figure that one out...

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I don't think this is pre-game strategizing, since it's just counting what can be seen and discussing rules, so here goes. I see 47 forests in the initial screenshot. Each will save 2 turns, so that's -94 turns. At 5:1 for the remainder, it's 25 more, so I guess the minimum required to get to 1 turn is 72.

So maybe 40-50 was optimistic.

However, as I recall, we had to clear over 100 radiation tiles, maybe closer to 200? It's been a few years.

 

[Zhary]

Interest in a particular SG is high at the beginning and then wanes if it drags on. Interest after a SG concludes is high, perhaps because people want to improve their performance, then wanes. Waiting for months for the next one to begin, especially when you're talking about a game that in itself is aging and losing players, is a recipe for failure.

Yes the game is aging we players that are still here starting to be more like the old guys in the park playing boule we just happy that everybody still shows up. I've considered sending personal invitation to the normal gotm players still there. Telling them that we are happy to have enough players for a game and they don't really need to be to active since most of us doesn't.(I would love to see Jovan in a 1 player team)

One more thing, with all due respect to Zhary. Erkon's radiation game lost a number of players who had no intention of scrubbing 52 gazillion tiles. Remember that a key factor in designing CIV was lowering micromanagement. This one harkens back to that problem... (just sayin')

One of the ideas of the game is actually to reduce workermicro not increase it. The first iteration had a hard limit on VC either don't chop any forest(which was every non resource tile) or force env on everyone. The rules improved part for the problem of controlling no chops and that it was kinda boring to not have any workermicro at all. One more iteration also had forest only and not forest preserves but at the industrial era the workers usually gets unemployed except for railroad so the preservers are added for a more even usage of worker.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One of the ideas of the game is actually to reduce workermicro not increase it. The first iteration had a hard limit on VC either don't chop any forest(which was every non resource tile) or force env on everyone. The rules improved part for the problem of controlling no chops and that it was kinda boring to not have any workermicro at all. One more iteration also had forest only and not forest preserves but at the industrial era the workers usually gets unemployed except for railroad so the preservers are added for a more even usage of worker.

It's a fine line between getting ideas out there and damping enthusiasm. I'm obviously not trying to discourage anyone. The opposite. The preserves are not a factor for me. Just automate the workers. In fact, WT showed us a technique for commanding all the workers to builds railroads (or preserves or anything) with a single command.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

In fact, WT showed us a technique for commanding all the workers to builds railroads (or preserves or anything) with a single command.

Can you share that with us?

 

[WastinTime]

Can you share that with us?

That was the greatest idea I ever had in an SGotM! This technique would allow me to just issue the command, walk away, and come back 30 minutes or an hour later with my head clear and all the (40-ish) workers done. When you're slogging thru those last 10 turns, this is a life-saver. It was fun to look it up and remember the moment I got the idea.

SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants #2409

 

[ChrisShaffer]

ROFL

 

[Pangaea]

Surely that breaks some kind of username etiquette?

 

[LowtherCastle]

That was the greatest idea I ever had in an SGotM! This technique would allow me to just issue the command, walk away, and come back 30 minutes or an hour later with my head clear and all the (40-ish) workers done. When you're slogging thru those last 10 turns, this is a life-saver. It was fun to look it up and remember the moment I got the idea.

SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants #2409

lol

That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about the CIV command you used on the last two turns to tell all the workers to build railroads. What is that command again? I think you select one worker, give the command, then all workers perform the same action, right?

 

[WastinTime]

What is that command again? I think you select one worker, give the command, then all workers perform the same action, right?

Oh, you just hold the 'Alt' key and click on the railroad button (or whatever action). but everyone knows that. It's in the help text when you hover over an action button if you ever forget.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Oh, you just hold the 'Alt' key and click on the railroad button (or whatever action). but everyone knows that. It's in the help text when you hover over an action button if you ever forget.

I don't think I knew that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is the gems tile a plains hill tile?

 

[Zhary]

Is the gems tile a plains hill tile?

Yes the settler stands on a djungle plainhill gems tile.

 

[pigswill]

I'm guessing one of the random factors will be forest spread in starting screensot area, its certainly possible that one or more teams will get 50+ forests if they avoid working non-forest non-resource tiles.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I'm guessing one of the random factors will be forest spread in starting screensot area, its certainly possible that one or more teams will get 50+ forests if they avoid working non-forest non-resource tiles.

That's edging dangerously into strategy talk...

 

[Zhary]

I would rather call it public knowledge so far. I would recommend all teams to look up growth probability unless someone post it here before.
And from the mapmakers point of view I really hope that some teams try the 1 turn challenge and others don't.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Here you go:

jungle has a 16% growth probability...
the chance increase for each of the tiles it borders in north, south, east and west (not northwest, etc)
after this the chance is raised by another 25% of the original chance (and then dropped to half if the tile has a road)
This chance is measured in 1/100 percent..

chance of jungle growing in any turn surrounded by n jungle tiles (n = 0,1,2,3 or 4) and no road or units on tile:

probability = 16 * n *1.25 * 0.01%

so when surrounded by 4 jungle tiles :
16*4 * 1.25 * 0.01% = 0.8% per turn

surrounded by 2 jungle tiles :
16*2 * 1.25 * 0.01% = 0.4% per turn

chance of jungle growing in a tile surrounded by 2 other jungle tiles (assuming no jungle growth in surrounding tiles) over 17 turns:

(1-(1 - 0.004)^17) * 100% = 6.59%


chance of jungle growing in a tile surrounded by 4 other jungle tiles over 20 turns:

(1-(1 - 0.008)^20) * 100% = 14.8% chance (or 1 in 6.7 )

(unless I misread something in the code)

I believe forest is the same, but too bad for you if I'm wrong.

 

[zbgayumn]

So the forests just have to be in the land shown on the opening screenshot to count for the 2-turn deduction, right? They don't have to be the actual forests shown in the screenshot... I'm just evaluating city locations and thinking it would be hard not to settle on a forest tile eventually.