[BTS] SGOTM 24 Turbo Ants

[LowtherCastle]

Speaking of pacifism, I believe klarius discovered an idiosyncrasy of Pacifism and small empires that forces them commit war. I wonder if we could use that with Gandhi. If he DOWed Toku, we'd get OBs with TOku. G would have nothing to gain against Aoska and Bis but doesn't like us enough for TOku. DOesn't that indicate the G's power versus Toku is high enough to declare (but not high enough against the toher two)?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Found it.

A little bit digging in the SDK:

How come that peace loving Gandhi is ready to go to war so fast?
And also rather peaceful Churchill, who seems to prepare against de Gaulle.

The culprit is pacifism in very small empires and by that a "feature" of the renaissance start.

BtS introduces an increase in war probability for unit spending percent.
And the percentage is relative to total spendings.
Emperor AI with 2 cities in pacifism will probably have 0-2g cost from maintainance and civics, while unit cost in pacifism can pretty easily reach 1-3g even with AI bonus.
50% unit spending with aggressive AI will make them ~170 times more likely to declare war than non aggresive with 0% unit cost.

4 city France (not building military early) may not have any unit cost, so the under normal conditions most war loving de Gaulle might be the most peaceful now (still 2% per turn). If he had ~50% unit spending, his war probability would go to 100%.

So the question is, is this only with Renaissance starts or also when a Civ enters the renaissance era? Did Gandhi have many units in Delhi to maintain his HeredRule p14 happiness? What about his other cities? Gandhi's spiritual so he might go straight into pacifism if we gift him Philo. Then he might go WHEOOHRN and DOW Toku. That would be a bonus. He'd also spam GPs like they're going out of style. Delhi would be a settled GP smorgasbord.

Any takers?

 

[WastinTime]

Rather than worker next in TAT (which is great idea since it's not growing anyway ) how about spies? What I'm looking for is a way for TAT to produce things we need and still grow to pop11 by t150. We're going to need spies and Confu eventually.

Yea, we woulda had that worker during the GA already, but I chose to build MoM.
I was surprised it could work 5 sci and still get a worker in 5t.

I'll look and see if we can get size 11 and still get that worker. It should come out very fast once we're done with sci.

On the topic of turning TAT up to 11 (cus it's louder than 10):
I hope nothing funny happens with HG. Here's a 'bug' I found just a few months ago:
HG Population lost
Imagine a city like Barbsdyes, working a merchant, stagnant.
It is given +1pop by HG, then instantly starves cus there's no 2 food tile. Learned that the hard way.
So, on T140, Barbsdyes needs to work a water tile.

My question is: Does this bug go deeper? What happens if a city is not stagnant, but starving? Like TAT will be.
Is there a chance that the city will starve 1, then get +1 HG pop and starve again? on the same turn?
I'd guess no, this won't happen, but might be nice to know.

 

[WastinTime]

gift him Feudalism also and flip Vassalage.

You're probably joking, but we can't do that anyway for 2 reasons:
a) we gift monarchy this turn, can't gift feudal
b) we need to be in vassalage, which we also can't do til next turn.
---------------------------------------
I doubt we'd get anything out of the Gandhi Pacifism thing. It is very ironic that it's the Pacifism civic that causes it. I don't know that it hurts us to give it tho.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Interesting question on that HG bug. First we get the extra GPs from the citizen who really ought to be dead. Then he dies. But when do we complete the HG in that sequence? Obviously before the city counts the food tiles for starvation. My guess is that, yes, we'd lose two poppers.

No, I wasn't interested in giving Bis Feudalism. If we really needed the 2t it would have to be Theo, but we're not in Theo. Anyway that works best with Roosevelt.

 

[WastinTime]

My guess is that, yes, we'd lose two poppers

It seems odd that the 'starvation check' would be done twice. I'm betting hoping it's only 1 pop loss.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Safeguarding Environmentalism: Preventing AIs from revolting just before we bribe them

Turns until AI considers another civic switch:

Civics:
SPI: 10t
non-SPI: 25t
after bribe via diplo: 10t
after espionage mission: 5t

Unsafe:
Gandhi and Asoka are spiritual.
(Gandhi t124 Castes)

Safe:
Toku safe until t159 (t134 Free Religion)
Darius safe until t157 (t132 OR+Vass)
(Darius t106 HR) supports Pollina's research

Soon we'll work out our approximate finish date, but it's probably ~t158-160, so bribing all AIs except Toku to some civic on about t151 would safeguard us. Toku is risky if we don't run the Env spy mission before t160 because we can't bribe him. So we must Medicine by t159. Period. We have to gift all AIs up to Medicine by t158.

Key On-or-Before Dates:
1. t151 bribe all non-Toku AIs to adopt any civic
2. t158 all AIs have Medicine prereqs
3. t159 gift all AIs Medicine
4. t159 all AIs revolt to Env (...Liberalism path for bribe, spy for Toku/(Stalin))

 

[LowtherCastle]

It seems odd that the 'starvation check' would be done twice. I'm betting hoping it's only 1 pop loss.

Bet? Bet.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What is our current SciMeth date? Time to jazz up Preservation Hall.

And what turn is the revolt to Slavery?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Tundra forests
Hagia    W/serfdom      Ratio Total w-t
7t left  5t              0:0    5=0+5
6t       5t (waste 1t)   1:0    6=1+5
5t       4t (not good)   2:1    6=2+4   
4t       3t (better)     3:2    6=3+3
3t       2t (best)       4:3    6=4+2
2t       2t (waste 1t)   5:3    7=5+2
1t       1t (bad)        6:4    7=6+1
0t       0t (not as bad) 7:5    7=7+0

 

[WastinTime]

2. t158 all AIs have Medicine prereqs

157 all AIs have Med prereqs-prereqs
156. and so on.
155. ...

gotta start this chain early with AI's like Stalin and Toku.

I know you know that. Just saying, we want to remind ourselves long before T158.

--------
Sci Meth is bulbed 148, but (unless we get enough population) finished 149. HG, plus the 3 new cities would put us close, but then we have the starving.
We take slavery T149
Could take Serfdom T154

 

[WastinTime]

Bet? Bet.

You wanna bet cus you tested it? We should test cus one option is to starve Moscow to 4 and it's supposed to bounce back to 5 with HG. I'd hate to end at size 4 when it could have been size 6.

 

[WastinTime]

There's no way around TAT starving on T140. It's the only city that starves that turn (and on T139)
If it were 139 HG, I think I could actually fix TAT to starve 138 and not starve 139, but now we're gonna find out what happens with HG+starving one way or another.

 

[WastinTime]

Sci Meth is bulbed 148, but (unless we get enough population) finished 149. HG, plus the 3 new cities would put us close, but then we have the starving.

we're closer than I thought. We might make it. I think I said pop 124.
We might need to focus on grow-timing.

Examples: Gaul could get 2corn's corn soon (when it starves), TAT regrow--might have to NOT work the 1f-furs...checking, no won't help, but TAT does grow back +1.
Stone, grow after this next worker.

Yes, I think we can say SciMeth T148! Because of HG.
Slavery is still T149

 

[LowtherCastle]

You wanna bet cus you tested it? We should test cus one option is to starve Moscow to 4 and it's supposed to bounce back to 5 with HG. I'd hate to end at size 4 when it could have been size 6.

No, just playing. DIdn't test it. I'm looking at the worker plan. You wanna test that?

 

[LowtherCastle]

My very preliminary calcs show us needing 3 turns of Serfdom (T0+T1+T2). So that would be T156. If so, we need Medicine T156 (including a turn of anarchy), right? That would be the theoretical best finish, I think. That's assuming we have roughly:
10 wkrs and 30 roaded forests on t148
+10 wkrs t150
+10 t152
+10 t154
Slavery t149
Serfdom t154

Is Medicine the long pole after all?

 

[LowtherCastle]

That also could mean we need AP sooner than we thought. We'll need to maximize our hammer production in Moscow, whatever that entails.

 

[WastinTime]

Tested. TAT will not double starve.

Here's what happens. and it makes sense
Cities before Moscow are processed as is, then get +1 pop for next turn.
Cities after Moscow are at the mercy of the city governor.
None of our GP farms are after Moscow.

So, what does that mean for Moscow itself? It would starve if we rush HG that way. And get +1 back.
Unfortunately, the starvation check is before the HG completion adds 1.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Good.

If Medicine's the hang-up, we may have to focus on maximizing our Rep beakers all the way to the end of the GA. Is that already part of your calcs? Absolutely minimize builds, squeeze as many beakers as we can out of the GA.

 

[WastinTime]

Is Medicine the long pole after all?

Bio + liberalism: T156
Our research is crippled after Caste.

or can we?....

We can run ~130 scientists in our empire on T148 into Biology. (starve 20 after the final SciMeth bulb). That should be a good 1400b
Also, I mentioned earlier that we might have to scratch and claw our way to SciMeth.
That's not true any more, quite a bit of failgold has been rolling in, surprise conquest gold, tech trade, etc. so what I can try to plan is a 800 OF from PPress.

So we could have 2500 into Biology by the time we exit the GAge.
I'll have to do some planning to get more than 800 OF.
We can't get OF from Paper and Edu cus after those we have to do partial Liberalism, erasing any OF stacking.
The only other tech is Chem. So maybe (I need to look closer) we don't put enough into Chem to bulb it T141. We purposely come up short.
This will delay Chem for several turns (workshops don't get the +1).

We could have over 3000b in Biology on T150
But 2500 to go.
If we can do 500bpt for 5 turns.
We'd get Medicine T156.
It could happen.