Sounds good.
[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
LowtherCastle
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Outside-the-Box
Thought 1:
Why bother getting all the Medieval techs? Do we even need Banking, Divine Right, Guilds, Engineering, Feudalism, Paper (for map trades?)? All that for 14 points?!? Even Optics and Compass are useless unless we need Astro, right? For that matter, do we even need to tech any techs at all or can we let AIs tech them all for us? Outside let's say Music for the GA, Construction, and Currency if you're sure it will pay off. All AIs we know will trade techs at Cautious, except Stalin and Toku at Pleased.
What if we just rolled the AIs post haste? Then all we need to do is pump out spies, collect eps, and build wonders. The less we tech, the more we can use the espionage slider.
This also would mean we don't need GPs for teching, just for wonders (prophet), eps, culture bombs, or golden ages.
Thought 2:
We have three industrious AIs + maybe a 4th.* Roosy, Stalin, and Bismarck. We could quickly determine if they have stone and/or marble and watch their cities for wonder builds for Failgold. They could start ToA or Mids any time they want. We could also find out which ones have which strategic resources for quick killing later, in order to decide who to leave alive to build wonders.
* Is the blue culture bbp noticed NE of Gangzhou AI#8? There is no AI of that color. France? Our Prophet can find out on T1.
Thought 3:
Why Currency first? Will AIs already have cash to trade? (Failgold?) Will we want to trade them expensive techs for whatever they have?
Thought 4:
How soon do we build the Kremlin? What other builds do we even need? Workers, granaries, wonders, ???. Reason to omit Taoism for now. Kremlin massively increases our failgold production.
Thought 5:
The more we whip, the better. How do we handle the happiness factor for unlimited whipping? Should we build Globe somewhere? HR? Calendar? Conquer happy resources asap?
To be tested:
1. What do AIs do if we demand city liberation?
2. Culture espionage, as needed.
3. Gifting ivory to Toku to get 4 plusmods?
4. Circumnavigation
Scouting Goals:
1. Maybe open trade network with Toku
2. Strategic resources of AIs.
3. Slave trades.
4. War targets and master conquest plan.
5. Any outstanding AI units (cossacks, etc)
6. AI cities to monitor wonder builds and determine their tech era.
Thought 1:
Why bother getting all the Medieval techs? Do we even need Banking, Divine Right, Guilds, Engineering, Feudalism, Paper (for map trades?)? All that for 14 points?!? Even Optics and Compass are useless unless we need Astro, right? For that matter, do we even need to tech any techs at all or can we let AIs tech them all for us? Outside let's say Music for the GA, Construction, and Currency if you're sure it will pay off. All AIs we know will trade techs at Cautious, except Stalin and Toku at Pleased.
What if we just rolled the AIs post haste? Then all we need to do is pump out spies, collect eps, and build wonders. The less we tech, the more we can use the espionage slider.
This also would mean we don't need GPs for teching, just for wonders (prophet), eps, culture bombs, or golden ages.
Thought 2:
We have three industrious AIs + maybe a 4th.* Roosy, Stalin, and Bismarck. We could quickly determine if they have stone and/or marble and watch their cities for wonder builds for Failgold. They could start ToA or Mids any time they want. We could also find out which ones have which strategic resources for quick killing later, in order to decide who to leave alive to build wonders.
* Is the blue culture bbp noticed NE of Gangzhou AI#8? There is no AI of that color. France? Our Prophet can find out on T1.
Thought 3:
Why Currency first? Will AIs already have cash to trade? (Failgold?) Will we want to trade them expensive techs for whatever they have?
Thought 4:
How soon do we build the Kremlin? What other builds do we even need? Workers, granaries, wonders, ???. Reason to omit Taoism for now. Kremlin massively increases our failgold production.
Thought 5:
The more we whip, the better. How do we handle the happiness factor for unlimited whipping? Should we build Globe somewhere? HR? Calendar? Conquer happy resources asap?
To be tested:
1. What do AIs do if we demand city liberation?
2. Culture espionage, as needed.
3. Gifting ivory to Toku to get 4 plusmods?
4. Circumnavigation
Scouting Goals:
1. Maybe open trade network with Toku
2. Strategic resources of AIs.
3. Slave trades.
4. War targets and master conquest plan.
5. Any outstanding AI units (cossacks, etc)
6. AI cities to monitor wonder builds and determine their tech era.
Does look like France, and De Gaulle would fit historically. It's a bit bizarre that sossos would have held back one AI if we can just meet him on T1.
For the typical economic reasons. We have 3 great cities to start and can expand quickly. I believe AIs are likely to research Alpha and Monarchy, so Currency can also be traded easily.
Tested quickly with Churchill and Roosevelt in the test save, got rejected and -1
LowtherCastle
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We already have plenty of techs we can trade AIs, which brings up a question, do we want to speed up AI teching?
Woot, it started!
Ok, here are the Screenshots from our Start on Turn 0.
It should help with more rapid planning.
Homeland
(Map has 1677 Land Tiles)
Neighbor's Land
Useful Info
Less Useful Info
Ok, here are the Screenshots from our Start on Turn 0.
It should help with more rapid planning.
Homeland
(Map has 1677 Land Tiles)
Spoiler :
Neighbor's Land
Spoiler :
Useful Info
Spoiler :
Less Useful Info
Spoiler :
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Ok, so we have 3 cities, all pop 2. 1 archer in each, GSpy in Yan'an, bomber in Beijing, and GP in Guangzhou. No workers to start.
We can see the following cities: Moscow (NW), Istanbul (W), Hong Kong - English - right next to Guagzhou on an island, Tsingtao - German. The red borders to the NE are Japan. Blue borders to the south American. Visible AI cities have LB+Archer.
All religions have been founded. Christianity is the only one without a holy city. We have Taoism in all 3 cities, and Yan'an is the holy city.
Interesting tidbits:
Stalin has Military Tradition.
Barbs have a population of 8.
Dark blue border visible NE of Guangzhou. I would think it's French, but it might be Roman?
Total land area is = 1677 tiles
The land we see so far appears really squeezed. WT suggested a large continent only reachable with Astro, and there is the existing barb population. Maybe they are the only ones there? We only need Calendar - Compass - Optics before Astro here.
Thanks for the analysis Babybluepants
Stalin has Military Tradition?
How can we tell without Alphabet?
If he does, we need to steal it!
I also agree with your Post 77 to WastinTime's opening moves.
Sounds good.
I don't think Coastal Fishboat 5
or Turn 2 Granary whip is any faster in the long run than Worker first.Hmm, it isn't the rose purple of Rome, so it is probably the unmet AI.
Probably one of the Frances or Sumeria.
I would be surprised but not shocked if it was Rome since I'm a bit colorblind.
How dangerous are Barbs in this game?
Do they spawn on Turn 1 with Classical start?
Would suck to lose the Great Prophet moving it to capital for Shrine or while scouting.
Shrine first would last all game, hmm.
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This is a really good question.
What to do about Alphabet?
Is every AI gonna start teching it on Turn 1 since they likely have Iron Working already?
Or do we need to do it ourselves?
No AI currently has it.
When to Chop Kremlin? (Increases whips from 30
base to 45 base essentially 
)Jeez, with that coastal city Guangzhou, Size 4 with +16
surplus at Size 4, and Globe Theater as soon as we have 6 Pavilions. 
The world's greatest Settler pump!
Actually, Kremlin is a million times superior to Globe Theater.
Ever since WastinTime popularized giving away a city to get get rid of unhappiness (no Barracks or Libraries plz!), then taking it back right away with DoW, Globe Theater has been withering away.
************************
Just looking at what is going on so far, we have 3 super cities
and the AI has bad cities.Mehmed to the west has a particularly awful capital.
Everyone is going to switch to their personal religion on Turn 1, so diplo is going to be a mess.
Our Pavilion is a Theater that gives +25% bonus
in a city like a mini-Cathedral, so dominating our neighbors' cultural borders won't be hard.Stealing techs is tantalizing.
England and Germany presumably have Feudalism unless they got world-builder Longbows.
Mehmed presumably has Gunpowder unless he got a world-builder Janissary.
Someone mentioned Stalin has Military Tradition?
A shame we can only infiltrate 1 civ with Great Spy.
A gift city can still be very attractive with -40% religion bonus and -50% city culture, so building up
with slider a few turns to steal a big tech should still be easily done.I think stealing any techs a civ got through world builder will be a key to winning in this game.
Scouting situation is extremely good.
Bomber can scout Open Border civs, and Great Spy can scout Closed Border civs without ever getting caught.
Barbs are a large question mark, but as long as we stay inside our borders they can't harm us due to Great Wall.
We'll have another Great Spy in 50 turns unless we actively try to get something else.
Our first units can be 2
Chariots once we connect Horse to capital, or Swords and Cho-ku-nus once we have Iron from our 2nd city.Capital and 2nd city are connected by river, but our coastal city is cut off until we build a road to it.
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LowtherCastle
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Okay, who's going to play, Captain?
oops, xpost!
oops, xpost!
In my limited experience testing this, it is among the more common AI tech choices, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that. Might be worth running a few tests on random maps.
I based the MT on the fact that we can sign a defensive pact.
I don't believe that the other AIs have the techs you mentioned, based on the soldiers rating. Worldbuilder units are more likely, but I also haven't fully figured out the soldiers yet.
Oh!
Good catch.
Yes, Stalin is willing to entertain offers for a defensive pact now.
Spoiler :
I tested, and Communism does not open up defensive pacts (just permanent alliance).
So Stalin must have Military Tradition.
Demographics analysis might be useful to estimate if AI have Feudalism or Gunpowder now ya.
The AI range from 40,000 soldiers to 60,000 soldiers.
From your work on Post 49, hmm
I'm shocked Feudalism has no Soldier count associated with it!
But Gunpowder is a whopping 12,000 Soldiers all by itself.
Hard to tell just from the demographic data without the first tier of
data letting us know exactly how many soldiers Ottomans have.It can be calculated using our power ratio calculated with our Soldier count to get their Soldier count.
All will be revealed once we get Alphabet and can see if they can tech something past Feudalism or Gunpowder.
*******
Interesting that so many civs are willing to (Liberate) their cities to us.
That means those cities have no culture and are geographically closer to our capital than to any other capital.
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The mapmaker is trying to smother us with choices.
Here are the 6 World Wonders we can build at the start.
We have both Stone and Marble in our big fat crosses too.
Temple of Artemis, The Kremlin, Chichen Itza, Angkor Wat, Hanging Gardens, and Pyramids.
Kremlin is a terrifying 800, 60% more than even Pyramids.
The wonders can be useful, or could be a great source of fail gold.
The Great Prophet can also instantly bulb Theology, which unlocks Christianity, the AP, and the amazing +50% workers speed Hagia Sophia (550, double speed with marble)
Here are the 6 World Wonders we can build at the start.
We have both Stone and Marble in our big fat crosses too.
Temple of Artemis, The Kremlin, Chichen Itza, Angkor Wat, Hanging Gardens, and Pyramids.
Spoiler :
Kremlin is a terrifying 800
, 60% more than even Pyramids.The wonders can be useful, or could be a great source of fail gold.
The Great Prophet can also instantly bulb Theology, which unlocks Christianity, the AP, and the amazing +50% workers speed Hagia Sophia (550
, double speed with marble)
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I'm pretty sure we need to get CS, Nationalism, and Music before we can even steal MilTrad.
And then, that tech is useless without HBR, and Gunpowder.
How about we play in alphabetical order with Mitchum inserted if/whenever he thinks he has some time?
in that case, bbp, you're up! Then Kait, LC and me.
in that case, bbp, you're up! Then Kait, LC and me.
LowtherCastle
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We may connect Guangzhou to our capital by defogging SW or SE. We can see water tiles in both directions.
Ok, got it.
I would suggest that we just sign OB with all AIs in turn and get the coordinates of their cities. If you guys agree, I can do that today or tomorrow morning.
I would suggest that we just sign OB with all AIs in turn and get the coordinates of their cities. If you guys agree, I can do that today or tomorrow morning.
LowtherCastle
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Yes. Pls do OBs one at a time so you can figure out where that AI's capital (and other city) is.
The most it would cost is 381h (stone + SP), or 341h (with also forge). I don't know if I like the idea of OR early in the game.\Kremlin is a terrifying 800
We would want to build it in Beijing to stack spy points.
This is interesting. What's the best strategy for controlling the AP?
LowtherCastle
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How many GSpies do we want? Putting Kremlin elsewhere with a courthouse, with pacifism, GA and Parthenon might get more GSpies than stacking in one city.
We have a score of 281 from 10 wonder, 6 pop, and 38 tech.
We are getting an extra 126 points for our tech gifts. It's 6pts for every 1 in our tech score, but each tech is increased by era. So Communism is 5, giving +30 to our score. Math would be just 2, giving +12, etc.
For the AIs, normal starting base score (assuming 3 population) on this map is 128 (5 wonder (palace), 3 pop, 17 tech)
Do we know each AI population? (no, but the total is 15)
We can see the amount of tech and if there are many late-era techs below. I'm just guessing 2 classical techs in most cases, but 2 classical = 1 Renaissance tech, among other trade-offs.
Am I explaining this clearly? classical = +12 pts, Medieval = +18pts, Renaissance = +24pts, etc.
1 population is about +4pts
194 English: 3 classical and one Industrial tech?
190 America : -1 pop, 3 classical and one Industrial tech? (navy seal = Industrialism)
184 Russia : -1 pop, 3 classical and MilTrad is +24
184 Germany: -1 pop, 3 classical and... (also has a tech from era #4? or two more techs from Classical?)
172 Japan : -1 pop and 4 classical techs? (i.e. the 3 everyone else got + CS for samurai?)
156 Ottoman: +28 = -2 pop and 3 classical techs or 2 medieval
138 Roman: +10 = -2 pop One Medieval tech
We are getting an extra 126 points for our tech gifts. It's 6pts for every 1 in our tech score, but each tech is increased by era. So Communism is 5, giving +30 to our score. Math would be just 2, giving +12, etc.
For the AIs, normal starting base score (assuming 3 population) on this map is 128 (5 wonder (palace), 3 pop, 17 tech)
Do we know each AI population? (no, but the total is 15)
We can see the amount of tech and if there are many late-era techs below. I'm just guessing 2 classical techs in most cases, but 2 classical = 1 Renaissance tech, among other trade-offs.
Am I explaining this clearly? classical = +12 pts, Medieval = +18pts, Renaissance = +24pts, etc.
1 population is about +4pts
194 English: 3 classical and one Industrial tech?
190 America : -1 pop, 3 classical and one Industrial tech?
(navy seal = Industrialism)184 Russia : -1 pop, 3 classical and MilTrad is +24
184 Germany: -1 pop, 3 classical and... (also has a tech from era #4? or two more techs from Classical?)
172 Japan : -1 pop and 4 classical techs? (i.e. the 3 everyone else got + CS for samurai?)
156 Ottoman: +28 = -2 pop and 3 classical techs or 2 medieval
138 Roman: +10 = -2 pop One Medieval tech
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