[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

If we want to conquer our continent faster, why not use horse archers?

 

[babybluepants]

If we want to conquer our continent faster, why not use horse archers?

Against deity AIs with Feudalism? I don't know, is that feasible?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, if we're going for Domination, maybe we want to gift Roosy cities for building wonders on our landmass.

 

[babybluepants]

Here's my thinking on the domination approach:

If we kill 6 AI (JC, Mehmed, Stalin, DG, Toku, Bismarck), we only need 52% land and 52% pop for 100 military points. That isn't even enough for domination, which is why I was wondering about the potential for an AP win earlier. Or we can just complete domination...

100 military
100 culture (147k in one city + 3k Beijing/Yan'an - GA bomb + 75 successful missions = 147k)
91-95 civil
58 diplo
28 tech
40-44 construction (10-11 wonders)

If we can complete the Medieval tech era, we need 3 less wonders.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Against deity AIs with Feudalism? I don't know, is that feasible?

I don't think they have Feudalism. Why wouldn't they have revolted to Vassalage?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Here's my thinking on the domination approach:

If we kill 6 AI (JC, Mehmed, Stalin, DG, Toku, Bismarck), we only need 52% land and 52% pop for 100 military points. That isn't even enough for domination, which is why I was wondering about the potential for an AP win earlier. Or we can just complete domination...

100 military
100 culture (147k in one city + 3k Beijing/Yan'an - GA bomb + 75 successful missions = 147k)
91-95 civil
58 diplo
28 tech
40-44 construction (10-11 wonders)

If we can complete the Medieval tech era, we need 3 less wonders.

Doesn't 147,000c cost more than 40,000 eps?

 

[WastinTime]

ok, so as long as there isn't an enormous amount of ice in the poles and/or a huge 'new world' -- intentionally preventing domination without Astro, we can dominate in the old world.

bbp, Didn't you say there were an unusually large amt of land tiles? 1670-something? Anyway, we'll know soon enough. before we have to decide to move on Astro.

 

[WastinTime]

Okay, if we're going for Domination, maybe we want to gift Roosy cities for building wonders on our landmass.

clever idea, but he'd probably build in Washington anyway. Probably has stone/marble there and wouldn't near us unless we gifted it to him.
It would also cripple his research rate with that distance.

Doesn't 147,000c cost more than 40,000 eps?

Kaitzilla did some calcs a long time ago, but ~27,000 is stuck in my head.

 

[babybluepants]

bbp, Didn't you say there were an unusually large amt of land tiles? 1670-something? Anyway, we'll know soon enough. before we have to decide to move on Astro.

Dom limit is 1007 tiles. Right now, our continent seems to be about 20 tiles N-S and 40+ E-W. Obviously, the coastline varies, but it seems like there should be 900 tiles on it. That's not including the islands.

There's not much point speculating about it, since our bomber will reveal a lot more in the next 10t, but on the basis of what we see now, it seems feasible.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Do we need to prevent Roosy from building the AP?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Doesn't creating vassals increase the domination limit?

 

[babybluepants]

Not sure. I spun off a colony in a test game, and the dom limit didn't change. Is that what you meant?

If you have vassals, their land area counts at 50% towards your domination.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Not sure. I spun off a colony in a test game, and the dom limit didn't change. Is that what you meant?

If you have vassals, their land area counts at 50% towards your domination.

WT has some trick with vassals to maximize the dom limit for max score games.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Doesn't 147,000c cost more than 40,000 eps?

If it is ideal conditions, the to multiplier is roughly 5.

Spoiler :

Under less ideal conditions where spies aren't waiting for 50% for the initial spreads, the AI has enough economy to spend on slider, there are no Open Border etc., the multiplier is 4.
Best to plan on needing around 37,000



Also, contrary to popular belief, I've found farms, spy specialists, and building multipliers to be stronger than cottages for generating .

If we have plenty of Intelligence Agencies (+8, +50% ), plenty of trade routes, and plenty of island cities, we shouldn't have much trouble getting the needed espionage.
Castles for an extra +25% and +1 trade routes will also be very strong since we have Stone and are a Defensive civ for x3 building speed.

Doesn't creating vassals increase the domination limit?

Only when you push dead civs off the scoreboard.
In this game we'd need like 9 colonies to start increasing the Dom Limit.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Intuitively, I would have thought farm first, then chop. Here's a couple of quick tests:

Worker whip / granary / worker chop / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 15/24f, 19/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, iron mined, 3t into ivory watermill

Worker whip / worker chop / granary / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 15/24f, 10/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, iron mined, ivory watermill

We need to hook up the horse by T14, which is exactly what I was previously calculating for Yan'an (pasture pig - pasture horse). With that first test, we could have a chariot ready to move on T19. Probably T18 with some optimization.

Edit: xpost with WT

Thanks for testing this Bpp.

I think I like the 2nd scenario with Ivory Watermill complete and a 10 chariot.
A size 2 city growing on Ivory Watermill + Wheat is better than Iron Mine + Wheat.
Plus, when Size 3 arrives there will be another Ivory Watermill being worked up.
Being 7 Worker Turns ahead is also like two 30 chops.

I know Worker stealing is a priority, but a civ with a high Unit Bravery roll might just kill our Chariot with their Longbow. (I've been shocked stupid when DeGaulle did something like this to me once)
Maybe if the Worker is in outer ring and Bomber can sever the road behind the Worker?
Worker stealing is much trickier without Aggressive AI to force fast Cease Fires.

I'd want to rob Stalin as he was roading to his city Mongolia north of our capital.
He plays like an espionage focused Toku if I remember right.
Wont trade techs, his only food is cows, not much commerce.
He will stone age himself.
If we don't abuse him too much, he might build a Wonder in his capital for us.

Roosevelt can be robbed right away unless we want him as a trading partner.
Maybe let him keep his Worker, gift him stone, hope he chops Pyramids next to our capital.

 

[LowtherCastle]

bbp, did you update your test save, or is it still the pm one?

 

[babybluepants]

This is the latest. I haven't updated since T0 bomber recon. Unfortunately, this map is too small for London, Washington and the southern islands.

Do you guys think it's worthwhile building a new one with our current map knowledge? It's a bit of an undertaking, but if we're going to run tests, we may as well. I'm actually wondering if it's worth running a longer term test with AI setup simulated, to get a feel for how they expand and tech.

Edit: not sure I have time for all that...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Intuitively, I would have thought farm first, then chop. Here's a couple of quick tests:

Worker whip / granary / worker chop / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 15/24f, 19/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, iron mined, 3t into ivory watermill

Worker whip / worker chop / granary / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 15/24f, 10/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, iron mined, ivory watermill

We need to hook up the horse by T14, which is exactly what I was previously calculating for Yan'an (pasture pig - pasture horse). With that first test, we could have a chariot ready to move on T19. Probably T18 with some optimization.

Edit: xpost with WT

Not sure how you MMed it but I get this:

Worker whip / worker chop / granary / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 17/24f, 14/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, iron mined, ivory watermill
MM: work stone instead of wheat for +1h into the worker as applicable, work stone instead of wheat while building the granary until wheat farmed.

or with watermill before iron mine:

Worker whip / worker chop / granary / start chariot
T17: Size 2, 18/24f, 12/30h chariot, wheat farmed, forest 1NE chopped, ivory watermill, iron mined

Didn't try to improve on granary first.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is the latest. I haven't updated since T0 bomber recon. Unfortunately, this map is too small for London, Washington and the southern islands.

Do you guys think it's worthwhile building a new one with our current map knowledge? It's a bit of an undertaking, but if we're going to run tests, we may as well. I'm actually wondering if it's worth running a longer term test with AI setup simulated, to get a feel for how they expand and tech.

Edit: not sure I have time for all that...

Thnx.

If you make a test save with 84x52, then just make it quick and dirty, don't worry about exact AI placements, just far enough away to screw with their maintenance costs. But frankly, I think we can do without. I'm not planning to do much testing. I was just curious about Kait's plan.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks for testing this Bpp.

I think I like the 2nd scenario with Ivory Watermill complete and a 10 chariot.
A size 2 city growing on Ivory Watermill + Wheat is better than Iron Mine + Wheat.
Plus, when Size 3 arrives there will be another Ivory Watermill being worked up.
Being 7 Worker Turns ahead is also like two 30 chops.

Pop3 arrives on t19, the second mill on t20 because we can't mill river corners (Beijing-1N2W). If we want to slow down chariots, speed up city growth, we could mill the chopped grass and the flood plain first...

I know Worker stealing is a priority, but a civ with a high Unit Bravery roll might just kill our Chariot with their Longbow. (I've been shocked stupid when DeGaulle did something like this to me once)
Maybe if the Worker is in outer ring and Bomber can sever the road behind the Worker?
Worker stealing is much trickier without Aggressive AI to force fast Cease Fires.

I'd want to rob Stalin as he was roading to his city Mongolia north of our capital.
He plays like an espionage focused Toku if I remember right.
Wont trade techs, his only food is cows, not much commerce.
He will stone age himself.
If we don't abuse him too much, he might build a Wonder in his capital for us.

Roosevelt can be robbed right away unless we want him as a trading partner.
Maybe let him keep his Worker, gift him stone, hope he chops Pyramids next to our capital.

I wouldn't be surprised if those lbs are all city garrison or something frozen into the city. Otherwise, we could lure them out with a scout or something and capture the city more easily. So if we lose a chariot+worker, that would be excellent info for capturing other AI cities. We could also go with two chariots. In any case, that cow tile is outer ring, so your bomber plan should work too. Like dG, Stalin is the only one with his religion (Judaism), so he won't be too popular either.

I don't really care that much, but Shanghai is such a good city. Plus, stealing from Stalin starts building roads in the right direction for our future warring.