[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising

[Fippy]

Yep bait chariot should at least make sure that he will not attack our Choko instead.
So we will have 2 small chances for Tokyo next turn, chariot or silly build.

Overall we lost 1 unit if this attack fails, not too bad.
Turns out we could not have attacked Mumbai anyways.

If he has 2 archers in Tokyo next turn, we should probably get Choko & Sword out with one of our galleys.
Chariot can move away east (forest best for bait), and we hope he stops spamming archers if we move away until cease fire.
Agree that next turn bomber has to leave for Moscow, if we cannot take Tokyo.

 

[Gumbolt]

We need 3rd galley here if we plan to return to Tokyo. Maybe leaving him alive will envourage him to build a wonder. Hmmm. That or spam units to attack us. Let's just hope he can't build infantry any time soon.

Downside is 1-2 turn delays here and there can be difference between gold and silver.

Are we sure we have enough for Moscow? He will have 40% defences too. Can we reduce cultural defences with bombers? We also don't know what defences he may have.

 

[Fippy]

Well we cannot be sure if our 6 units are enuf for Moscow, but playing very cautious rarely helps.
We had some success with other cities, while we could have also thought hmmm DeG can go wrong
Can still abandon an attack on Stalin if we must, without losing units.

Not so sure we need another galley for Tokyo, currently our units are weak but that can ofc change with a general and some new preparation time.
Should be best if we wait how things play out before we whip another galley.
Bomber would be away for some time.

 

[lymond]

I guess we at least have to see what happens next turn. Chariot bait may help. If it looks bad we can retreat units to HK and bring those swords (and GG) over to HK, and hope for ceasefire soon. Then prepare a unit or two for attack after Moscow. I don't see a need for another galley if we keep the stack in HK, as we can ferry over reinforcements.

well, yeah..not until later in the afternoon

 

[Gumbolt]

Are you around later?

 

[Fippy]

Thoughts on Aesth as tech placeholder?
Looks good imo, we want all those wonders for building or failgold?

We could also talk about our overall opinion on AI special units like that sneaky Redcoat.
For Churchy i think that means we cannot attack Mumbai with a reasonable risk vs. reward, not a great city and deity AIs can whip 110h units at pop 4.

Praets are easy for Chokos.
Jans could be annoying, but Ottos are small for now and bomber can cut those down much better than Redcoats.
Musketeers no biggie, Panzers should not appear cos of oil lol.
Marines

When looking back at demographics, should we expect something extreme like Rifling for other AIs?

 

[elitetroops]

A general note: the reason we've seen no barbs is because barb units do not spawn. According to CIV4EraInfos.xml, from Renaissance era on, no barb units spawn. Only barb cities. I would assume this means average era of all civs, or something, and this game is easily at least Renaissance according to that measure.

The Redcoat... According to demographics on T0 Churchill should not have had Rifling. He had, which means he was lacking something else that we assumed he had, like some ancient techs, or defenders.

In a way the Redcoat makes me want to take out Mumbai asap. The fewer of those things we need to fight, the better. If he spreads across India to 3-4 cities with 2 Redcoats each, then we'll be struggling. Or maybe it wouldn't be so bad with Bomber and CR maces?

Another thing, doesn't the AI usually scale city defenses according to era? Early on they want 2 defenders, later on the basic defense is 4-5 defenders/city. Is this based on era, or something else? Is there a risk that Churchill will pump up typical late game amounts of Redcoats as basic defense?

A side effect of him having Rifling is that until Machinery for Xbows, he cannot build any other units than Redcoats. No archers, longbows, axes, swords... This should mean that he expands slowly, takes him a long time to build escorts. And he won't build a giant stack anytime soon.

 

[Fippy]

Ack and i was against a different gift city cos of barbs..
oh well, currently we would be happy if Toku gets a Palace in Pigs and if not it's harmless.

I would expect 2 Redcoats when we attack Mumbai, if he cannot whip other units he can whip those with deity bonuses.
And they are protective, would take real army building up efforts.

Did some tests, it's doable with ~6 mostly good units (like CR3 swords)..
i guess we can look at what we have left after Tokyo.

 

[Gumbolt]

I wondered why we had seen no barbs! I am about.

Wel the bait option seems good for Tokyo. A healed chariot won't do much for us. Albeit make sure it moves to a tile with no road. I would still load the 2xswords this turn.

 

[lymond]

Interesting about barbs. So technically barb cities could spawn, and if so, they would eventually send out units..possibly more advanced units. But, for now, barbs don't appear to be an issue one way or another.

I do kinda agree on Mumbai. I mean we want that city eventually regardless of how it seems. Maces may be a better option..I don't know. Question is would he attack with those Redcoats..we would need all our units.

Anyway, I'm up for trying out Tokyo if folks are willing.

I think the question is..do we want to setup some units from GP and HK now..just in case...or just retreat if it looks bad next turn. Honestly, with the likely new archer next turn there it could go sideways.

oh..and if we do have to retreat..maybe no so urgent on units since Moscow would be focus.

we may not have much left at all after Tokyo

 

[elitetroops]

I'm not sure about barb cities. Barb cities stop spawning in modern era. A couple of AI (Stalin and Rooze) are modern. Is that enough for the game to consider it being modern era? I suppose this could be tested. Not at civ computer now.

 

[Fippy]

Here
Bait chariot east on forest, so we can move it away if not killed?
Loading in GP swords this turn not good, we can let them heal and galley moves close.
They need 1 turn of sea travel anyways, or they would land short.

HK could whip Sword into lighthouse, but not something we have to decide yet..need pop 4 first.

Think we should split up PL workers, even if it delays 1N cottage.
We need marble, one could cottage 1s of being for 1t, then road above cows (for marble connection), then marble.
Yep

Good with Mongol worker chop and whip next turn.
Peking worker not sure, we could chop 2sw of Peking i think that makes more sense than doubling up on hill for 1h.

Good question with Surf worker, moving on other forest not really good imo as one would have to come back for this forest and it's not well placed.
I have no better idea than sacrificing this worker turn, and do 1t workshop or so.
Nopes 1t (why still acceptable imo), we can whip Aqua next turn and chop into it.
I believe there's no way around spending this 1 worker turn, moving on another forest not really helping us.

GG on jungle hill under GP maybe, so he's close as possible?
Galley 2 on fish looks good, other galley i would keep in place (maybe Toku feels danger from it lol..) and we expect it's moving out our units next turn.

(we can decide on GG for swords next turn, depending what happens in Tokyo..Archer could move out of city using road, we use GG on swords and archer moves back in. No hurry yet)

Umm wait, not moved GG yet?
Might have a better idea.

Okay nps, we can still do that next turn..
we totally forgot that we can upgrade our city guard Archer for free as Choko via warlord, and still get CR3 on both swords. They get 7-7-6 xp, and swords only need 6 more.

Hmm this would work well with another galley now (we would want at least 6 units for Mumbai anyways). Then we could transport all our units, and add another Sword from HK.
We have time for setting this up thou imo, cos Moscow first.

Yup let's put 3h into galley, so we can whip it any time we like.

All looks goodie, we could just use a plan for PL
I assume we want Intel Agency here later (2 should do, PL and GP).
Settled Gspy makes it good.

Pyras in Cowa imo.
Nothing wrong with IA in PL start now i think.

Yup green

 

[lymond]

Yeah, the swords are awkward with galley movement and we may need galleys to pick up in retreat.

Just a sec..opening things up here....need to address the other movements and decisions on the map too

bait on forest sounds good.

galley 1 move to clams? can either go for swords next turn or pick up in retreat if needed

Moscow units..another turn of heal..assume we don't attack this turn?

I think we can start sword in HK...it will grow fast to size 4 with clams (GP will not need them)..maybe start Choke in GP?

yeah, the actually came to mind yesterday...so 1t cottage on grass tile >1t road>marble?

the other finishes cottage 1N (yeah, I like splitting them..doubling up this early not really good)

Golden Calf - still Mids or another unit?

sounds good, GG to jungle hill

were you thinking GG the archer > choke?

yep, they do..we'll get another gg anyway at this rate. (i've often done china games where I prebuild cheap archers for upgrade later)

uploaded still question on GC build and possibly new unit started in GP

okie..galley started in GP

ah..makes sense..lots of forests and forge soon

nvm..you answered

PL on Intel

green greeny greensburg

alrighty..i'm going to upload immediately after endturn

 

[Gumbolt]

I think we would of seen barb cities by now. Also maybe they did this to ensure we didn't face a map of redcoats. If English have Redcoats I assume they can still build archers? (Missed that.)

Nope he can't build any archers! Tested!

CR3 swords? 20xp over both? Then they would be fully healed for galley?

Archer upgrades to CKN? That would be nice. Unless we want a medic unit? Thing with CKN is first strike is sweet. Yes CKN upgrade and 2 CR3 swords would be huge.

Redcoats worth 14k each. I doubt English have more than 2-3 of these right now. Top power is 76k. This will include basic techs like BW, TW etc and population. Plus any archers he started with. Churchill is protective. Very annoying.

If we attack mumbai by sea galley is useful.

Goodluck chariot! Bait not taken. Frustrating!

Russians have 2 cities.

 

[lymond]

yep new Japanese archer as expected

no attack..his worker moved back to forest to chop

Spoiler Toku must Die! :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 700 BC to 675 BC:

Turn 87, 700 BC: Cowabunga! has grown to size 4.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Fur valley will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 87, 700 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your population: 42 (36.21%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 37 (32.00%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Bomber has attacked an enemy Longbowman! (-33% Damage)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Bomber has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (5.77)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 72.4%
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) has defeated Tokugawa's Longbowman!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Beijing) has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (5.25)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 76.9%
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 19 (51/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer has defeated SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm)!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 3 (GP farm) has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.24)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 98.0%
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 23 (37/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 23 (14/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Swordsman 1 (Yan'an) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) (4.09) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.82)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 71.5%
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (70/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 17 (34/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (47/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 17 (17/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (24/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) is hit for 23 (1/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 700 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your Chariot 4 (Beijing) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Fur valley will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Tokugawa refuses to talk.
Turn 87, 700 BC: You are the worst enemy of Roosevelt, Tokugawa, Bismarck, Stalin.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Churchill is the worst enemy of De Gaulle.
Turn 87, 700 BC: De Gaulle is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Roosevelt is the worst enemy of Mehmed II.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your population: 42 (36.21%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 37 (32.00%)
Turn 87, 700 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Mongolia.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Phoenix Lair will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Peking Duck will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Fur valley will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 87, 700 BC: Stalin has founded St. Petersburg in a distant land.

Turn 88, 675 BC: Phoenix Lair has grown to size 5.
Turn 88, 675 BC: GP farm will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: GP farm can hurry Galley for 2⇴ with 20ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 28 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Peking Duck has grown to size 8.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Cowabunga! can hurry Forge for 2⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Fur valley has grown to size 4.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Fur valley has become unhappy.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Mongolia can hurry Cho-Ko-Nu for 1⇴ with 10ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Surf N Turf can hurry Aqueduct for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Silky Sushi will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Your population: 45 (37.50%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 38 (32.00%)

crap..i guess I shoulda bombed first and promo'd up so you could see odds

want me to do that and upload again?

 

[Fippy]

Nope no bomb we need to fly Moscow.

No way imo that we should try anything here
Bomber into (new) Bejing, and we can declare on Stalin and advance.

When bomber can return and we have 6 units ready, we can take out Tokyo cos Archers are not that bad with healed up, strong units.

I would load Choko and Sword into galley, and rest in HK (no need for unload) so they are ready later. Chariot can flee 2E, out of range maybe that makes him stop archers until cease fire.

Yup, i think we should move on his cows?

I think we might as well use our GG now yup (agree on choko c1), free choko and 2 CR3 swords we will not do much better here.

Okay on 1s of cows for Stalin.

Other stuff
Cowa should whip forge now, we lose Iron for 2t but chop gets boosted so some food gained.
Surf can whip Aqua yay, and we chop in.
FV settler whip ofc.
Mongolia also whip.

Yup silky worker 1s of city, first chop we can fully complete.

Cowa worker can chop into forge that's nps.
Those big overflow hammers will get 25% from forge already next turn.

Hmm..cows are the best tile for Mongolia imo, but another worker could cover them.
Would we use Peking worker on hill for that when he finished mine?
Chopping Peking worker could then take Ivory when done.

What i dun like about cows for Mongol worker is we are spending 2t on roads with him.

Think i like Mongol worker on Iron, 1t road, and if we finish that road after Iron we have 1t move on deer. With SP i would probably consider Iron more valuable, Deer also on Tundra ugh.

Not really possible with Tao, without open borders we could not get into Pigs gift.

Oki..i think HK should switch back to LH so we not accidently get too many hammers for Sword 2 pop whip.
GP should have time with galley whip and can wait 1t, we will never start that attack without our bomber imo (and HK Sword not ready too by far)
Unless we have better ideas, i expect our CR3 swords + choko join HK whipped sword for 4 units in those 2 galleys.

 

[lymond]

ha..yep..you on it

AIs tend not to focus so much on units if not adjacent to city..threatening

ha...Mehmed sending Islam our way

ok..units clear of Tokyo..and bomber in new Beijing (must think of a name)

blast the war horns on Stalin?

GG on GP archer? xp to those swords too?

Hurt Choke get C1 to heal faster?

well, we can whip FV this turn

gotcha..consider it done

we are at war with Stalin and on the cows (oops)

hmm..we can move CR2 swords into galley or move galley in to pick up choke and a sword (forgot about upgrade nixing movement, i coulda wait on that, but honestly we need heal time anyway)

Surf - whip aqua now and take chop (DONE)

Silky worker to 1S of city(DONE)

Mongo whipped/FV whipped (DONE)

Cowa forge whip (worker chops into forge) (DONE)


(thought - we could get 2t tao mish in Peking and infect Holy Pigs) or wait..is that right if he will actually be in the religion? elite, where are you?

sounds good...iron great tile (DONE)

blah blah..lymond nonsense..ha

You know..we may want to whip that galley now...CR2 sword into galley and Choke into new galley next turn

oh yeah..with SP things are cheaper..HK back to LH (DONE)

hold off on galley whip

Might as well just heal those Swords in place

yep, 3 galleys soon with six units and sneaky chariot E of Tokyo

UPLOADED

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah that attack is dead in water. Why would you even be bombing?
Russians have built a city. Perfect time to attack.
He will just keep building archers here. sosso knew what he was doing here.

On plus side no cultural pressure from pig city.

No point keeping units near his city. Least the LB is dead. Archers vs ckn/swords should be weaker.

Our power score here will fall quite behin HS soon

FV wants to join motherland. That part will be annoying in other cities.

Is C1 better than first strikes? I guess C1 vs archers is better.

He has just whipped a settler. Really doubt in that time he has had any metal to build units. Settler move time 2-3 turns maybe? Likely just archers. he may have military techs but he has no horse yet?

Rome's new city is east of Rome judging by culture.

Any plans for silk to be hooked up now we have calendar?

I thought tao mish was for future GP farm or Org religion production? it's worth 25%.

We could check odds? str 3 archers. They would gain almost 100% with CG

If we plan golden age any time soon we need that marble for MM wonder. Timing crucial. Same for HG wonder and maybe mids too. Ai building mids would not be good here.

Odds may not be terrible without bomber but it will have no other use after Moscow for many turns.

Mumbai - We should look to block this city in. The banana city would stop any unwanted cities due east. Due west is another matter.

On test game with no bomber. CKN won with 33%. 2nd CKN won with higher odds. Swords at CR3 had 96% odds. 3 defenders. So without bomber is possible but is it really worth the risk.

 

[Fippy]

Green
Curious about Moscow.

I guess we move one unit on silk first, for info?
Okay, choko

Ugh this looks like another ugly fight..

 

[lymond]

Well, he did have an Axeman..and a LB/Sword/Archer (4 units)

interestingly we are blocking his worker

(3 archers in tokyo)

Spoiler Robert Loggia :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 675 BC to 650 BC:

Turn 88, 675 BC: Phoenix Lair has grown to size 5.
Turn 88, 675 BC: GP farm will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: GP farm can hurry Galley for 2⇴ with 20ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 28 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Peking Duck has grown to size 8.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Cowabunga! can hurry Forge for 2⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Fur valley has grown to size 4.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Fur valley has become unhappy.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Mongolia can hurry Cho-Ko-Nu for 1⇴ with 10ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Surf N Turf can hurry Aqueduct for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Silky Sushi will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Your population: 45 (37.50%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 38 (32.00%)
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have declared war on Stalin!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Stalin refuses to talk.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Surf N Turf.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cowabunga!.
Turn 88, 675 BC: GP farm will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Hong Kong will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Mongolia will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 89, 650 BC: GP farm has grown to size 6.
Turn 89, 650 BC: GP farm has become unhappy.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Hong Kong has grown to size 3.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Fur valley has become happy.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Silky Sushi has been pacified.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of Mongolia are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Your population: 41 (34.45%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 39 (33.00%)

another choke woulda been good here..hmm..we'll see

i'm on new post next page