[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising
- Thread starter AlanH
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I'm attaching the save in pause mode for everyone here.
Also, took a shot of the demo screen:
Not sure how to make much sense of that on a classical start, but maybe someone can (hint: elite)
Interestingly, and not sure if anyone noticed, but we actually have 3 cities. At least I did not notice. Lizzy has 3 cities. Most AIs have 2, but Rome and Ottos have 1. Interesting those are the two AIs with units starting next to our E city. That's a Janissary just to the E.
(was that pic in the maintenance thread updated)
All our cities have Tao, and we do have the holy city. Beijing a great place to build Mids/HG...we need workers fast.
There is 1 unmet AI, but pretty sure it is France or Sumeria to the NE of Gangzhou (our coastal city) ...or SE of America.
We do not start with even 1 worker, which I find a little bizarre. Granted this is not a normal start, but classical starts do give the human 1 worker. I think I'd rather have a couple of workers than a bomber.
Interestingly, Yan'an, Beijing and Gangzhou are in relative proximity to real life geography. As is Hong Kong. English city is Hong Kong (makes sense) and Tsingtao is German (Germany occupied it for a while). So may be some theme here. Japan to the east, ofc, though not on an island.
I suspect that is French then to the SE and likely a Vietnamese city or some other Indochine city. Not sure what the American city represents. So the map doesn't appear to approximate real world, but the locations seem meant to simulate it.
(edit: on further thought, Indochine does not fit the location logically, but France did have a bit a colonial presence in China. I think that city might be Shanghai...rest of France might be in a relative Indochine location)
The American city is puzzling thematically as they did not have an imperialistic presence in China, which the location appears to represent. It must be some other connection.
Also, took a shot of the demo screen:
Spoiler :
Not sure how to make much sense of that on a classical start, but maybe someone can (hint: elite)
Interestingly, and not sure if anyone noticed, but we actually have 3 cities. At least I did not notice. Lizzy has 3 cities. Most AIs have 2, but Rome and Ottos have 1. Interesting those are the two AIs with units starting next to our E city. That's a Janissary just to the E.
(was that pic in the maintenance thread updated)
All our cities have Tao, and we do have the holy city. Beijing a great place to build Mids/HG...we need workers fast.
There is 1 unmet AI, but pretty sure it is France or Sumeria to the NE of Gangzhou (our coastal city) ...or SE of America.
We do not start with even 1 worker, which I find a little bizarre. Granted this is not a normal start, but classical starts do give the human 1 worker. I think I'd rather have a couple of workers than a bomber.
Interestingly, Yan'an, Beijing and Gangzhou are in relative proximity to real life geography. As is Hong Kong. English city is Hong Kong (makes sense) and Tsingtao is German (Germany occupied it for a while). So may be some theme here. Japan to the east, ofc, though not on an island.
I suspect that is French then to the SE and likely a Vietnamese city or some other Indochine city. Not sure what the American city represents. So the map doesn't appear to approximate real world, but the locations seem meant to simulate it.
(edit: on further thought, Indochine does not fit the location logically, but France did have a bit a colonial presence in China. I think that city might be Shanghai...rest of France might be in a relative Indochine location)
The American city is puzzling thematically as they did not have an imperialistic presence in China, which the location appears to represent. It must be some other connection.
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Doesn't America control a Chinese production center in Axis & Allies?
sossos' map, maybe it represents a city not under communist Mao control?
elitetroops
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Yay, BUFFY .003 works! 
Quick look before heading out for the weekend:
-No other wonders built than GW.
-All our cities are pop 2, all AI cities in the world are pop 1.
-The unknown AI has 2 pop 1 cities (derived from rival average).
-Religion screen percentages require that there are exactly 29 pop in the world. Our 6 pop and all pop 1 AI cities add up to 21. => There is a total of 8 pop in barb cities in the world (can be larger than pop 1 cities)
-We are clear leader in power. Much thanks to bomber and extra techs.
-Normally on a classical start, on the scoreboard an AI with 1 city would have 126 points, 2 cities 135 and 3 cities 145. These dudes have 138-194 points. They have no extra pop or wonder score (except possible national wonders, but none of those in sight), nobody has any score from land yet => They all start with extra techs as well. However, I can't make the numbers in my scoresheet add up. Will have to investigate this more later.
-Stalin is in the industrial era like us. Probably also has SP. He is competing for Kremlin (or building it for us).
-AI does not all know each other. No extra diplo modifiers between AI who already have contact.
-The Japanese city is Manchou, which would be Manchuria, under Japanese control 1932-1945. We can expect the capital to be on an island to the east.
-The American city is Chongqing. Is his capital on another continent?
-Churchill also controls Mumbai. Interestingly, that one is available for liberation, Hong Kong is not. I don't know if it matters that Hong Kong is on another land mass. I think it shouldn't. Which would mean some other capital is closer to Hong Kong than ours.
-Stalin has a city called Mongolia.
Looks like we are pretty boxed in and have to put our bomber to use sooner rather than later.
Much to think about here..
-Horses, Elephants, Iron, Stone, Marble... They sure wanted to give us all options available.
-SP would immediately save 4gpt. What are our first civic changes and when?
-Open borders with all willing AI asap?
-First builds and tech?
Quick look before heading out for the weekend:
-No other wonders built than GW.
-All our cities are pop 2, all AI cities in the world are pop 1.
-The unknown AI has 2 pop 1 cities (derived from rival average).
-Religion screen percentages require that there are exactly 29 pop in the world. Our 6 pop and all pop 1 AI cities add up to 21. => There is a total of 8 pop in barb cities in the world (can be larger than pop 1 cities)
-We are clear leader in power. Much thanks to bomber and extra techs.
-Normally on a classical start, on the scoreboard an AI with 1 city would have 126 points, 2 cities 135 and 3 cities 145. These dudes have 138-194 points. They have no extra pop or wonder score (except possible national wonders, but none of those in sight), nobody has any score from land yet => They all start with extra techs as well. However, I can't make the numbers in my scoresheet add up. Will have to investigate this more later.
-Stalin is in the industrial era like us. Probably also has SP. He is competing for Kremlin (or building it for us).
-AI does not all know each other. No extra diplo modifiers between AI who already have contact.
-The Japanese city is Manchou, which would be Manchuria, under Japanese control 1932-1945. We can expect the capital to be on an island to the east.
-The American city is Chongqing. Is his capital on another continent?
-Churchill also controls Mumbai. Interestingly, that one is available for liberation, Hong Kong is not. I don't know if it matters that Hong Kong is on another land mass. I think it shouldn't. Which would mean some other capital is closer to Hong Kong than ours.
-Stalin has a city called Mongolia.
Looks like we are pretty boxed in and have to put our bomber to use sooner rather than later.
Much to think about here..
-Horses, Elephants, Iron, Stone, Marble... They sure wanted to give us all options available.
-SP would immediately save 4gpt. What are our first civic changes and when?
-Open borders with all willing AI asap?
-First builds and tech?
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Fippy
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Great posts guys, wow this looks like an interesting game for sure
Most likely first move would be switch into Slavery + SP imo, and whip workers when we can (1 pop worth 37h i think with expansive).
Actually 3 extra hammers / whip with SP too, so we should need just 20h into workers.
Once we connect Bejing Iron, we can build Chokos..pretty deadly with a bomber.
Makes me doubt we will consider Construction + Jumbos, we also lack HBR for that and need no Cats with Chokos.
Cheap granaries are an obvious build after worker, in Guangzhou too..enuf food without workboats.
Most likely first move would be switch into Slavery + SP imo, and whip workers when we can (1 pop worth 37h i think with expansive).
Actually 3 extra hammers / whip with SP too, so we should need just 20h into workers.
Once we connect Bejing Iron, we can build Chokos..pretty deadly with a bomber.
Makes me doubt we will consider Construction + Jumbos, we also lack HBR for that and need no Cats with Chokos.
Cheap granaries are an obvious build after worker, in Guangzhou too..enuf food without workboats.
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Good work people. Let me look at save.
We start with -9 gold a turn. So science will be limited for a bit. Most techs available will be 30+ turns. So maybe build up gold at start?
We have drama but no lit. Pavillions are nice option instead of monuments. Albeit all cities are getting culture on T1. Capital over 100 turns should easily get 1000-2000+ culture.
Looks like each Ai has at least 1 advanced unit. Romans - praet- English - LB. Mehmed - Jannisary. They might also have feudalism or are these LB just gifted?
See if they switch civics on T1? If they switch to HR they have monarchy and maybe Feud.
Yes appears to be a Fremch city below Tsingtao. So expect their 2mp musket.
Map is true to actual world map. So we can expect the Ai in their geographical positions.
Some Ai might start with settlers too? Need to watch this. Guessing they will also have workers at start. Hence why we have 3 cities.
Yanan x85, y43
Guang x89. y34
Beijing x91, y44
This gives us an idea of where on map we are.
No corps found yet.
T1 we have some civic decisions. SP looks very strong. Note we have philosophy already. So we actually have a lot of techs to trade if Ai lack there.
So slavery, SP and likely org religion as this will help with granaries and other builds.
Leave that for that. I am away tonight but back some time tomorrow. Lots to think about.
The early wars will likely show we can take out 1 Ai city but their capitals are quite far away. Not sure how much this will cripple the Ai science. It may be intended.
War wise 2mp units will work faster on a continent. CKN are good but slow. Knights would be quicker? 3 techs from Guilds.
Oh barbs could likely start with axes, spears and other units. Another reason Ai have more units. So need to scout carefully.
We need a test game at some point.
I can't see any unusual buildings in Ottoman or Moscow capital. I wondered if Ottoman had a temple? If the Ai start with free GP they could build a corp on T1 if they have the techs. So wise to check again on T1-T2.
Oh if all the Ai adopt their own religions expect a few wars here. Could be interesting.
We start with -9 gold a turn. So science will be limited for a bit. Most techs available will be 30+ turns. So maybe build up gold at start?
We have drama but no lit. Pavillions are nice option instead of monuments. Albeit all cities are getting culture on T1. Capital over 100 turns should easily get 1000-2000+ culture.
Looks like each Ai has at least 1 advanced unit. Romans - praet- English - LB. Mehmed - Jannisary. They might also have feudalism or are these LB just gifted?
See if they switch civics on T1? If they switch to HR they have monarchy and maybe Feud.
Yes appears to be a Fremch city below Tsingtao. So expect their 2mp musket.
Map is true to actual world map. So we can expect the Ai in their geographical positions.
Some Ai might start with settlers too? Need to watch this. Guessing they will also have workers at start. Hence why we have 3 cities.
Yanan x85, y43
Guang x89. y34
Beijing x91, y44
This gives us an idea of where on map we are.
No corps found yet.
T1 we have some civic decisions. SP looks very strong. Note we have philosophy already. So we actually have a lot of techs to trade if Ai lack there.
So slavery, SP and likely org religion as this will help with granaries and other builds.
Leave that for that. I am away tonight but back some time tomorrow. Lots to think about.
The early wars will likely show we can take out 1 Ai city but their capitals are quite far away. Not sure how much this will cripple the Ai science. It may be intended.
War wise 2mp units will work faster on a continent. CKN are good but slow. Knights would be quicker? 3 techs from Guilds.
Oh barbs could likely start with axes, spears and other units. Another reason Ai have more units. So need to scout carefully.
We need a test game at some point.
I can't see any unusual buildings in Ottoman or Moscow capital. I wondered if Ottoman had a temple? If the Ai start with free GP they could build a corp on T1 if they have the techs. So wise to check again on T1-T2.
Oh if all the Ai adopt their own religions expect a few wars here. Could be interesting.
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Are you sure about that? You don't necessarily have 60%+ land area when winning by conquest so it seems to me like Conquest=70pts + 30*(LandArea%/60%) would be more accurate
elitetroops
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Pop score is not capped. 100% pop is 85 points. We'd easily get more than 30 for pop even with vassals.
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Duh..I could a looked at the diplo screen to figure out the cities, except the French one (which I'm sure is Shanghai). Chungking is interesting. Only ties I can find are a pretty heavy commercial influence (lots of US corporate presence), and an US army/general was based out of there in the Sino-Japanese war. I suspect it is probably the commercial presence. I believe the English, American, German and French caps to be located in relative geographic proximity to real world. And Tokyo or Kyoto is probably on an island to the east.
Yep, Slavery and SP asap seems the way to go. Should boost those worker whips a bit and speed up granary. Not sure how many turns for worker whip since they don't one pop immediately. We can test this. Beijing with one turn and hammer focus (stone) may get to a one pop worker.
Well, -9g now, but question is do we have trade routes. Beijing and Yan will, but I think Gang is cut off right now, but should get a trade route with Hong Kong if we open borders, which may be an interesting decision on who we OB with. Oh, Bomber recon may help with foreign trade routes on rivers by revealing fog, if that is a hindrance.
Chokes will be fun.
Tech choice will be interesting. Alpha will allow for tech gift to Toku, but maybe we just attack him first to remove him from continent. However, I find that an AI or two on late era, will get to Alpha quite quick so we can trade for it. Elies would still be nice support unit, but those techs are kinda a waste otherwise. CS or Music path could be good. Teching will be slow for a while though.
Great Prophet? Do we create our shrine?
Do we actually adopt our religion? I know it will cause diplo problems, but OR would be helpful. And really there are no AIs that are an immediate threat. We could hold off on religion though for a bit to establish OBs and stuff.
Yep, Slavery and SP asap seems the way to go. Should boost those worker whips a bit and speed up granary. Not sure how many turns for worker whip since they don't one pop immediately. We can test this. Beijing with one turn and hammer focus (stone) may get to a one pop worker.
Well, -9g now, but question is do we have trade routes. Beijing and Yan will, but I think Gang is cut off right now, but should get a trade route with Hong Kong if we open borders, which may be an interesting decision on who we OB with. Oh, Bomber recon may help with foreign trade routes on rivers by revealing fog, if that is a hindrance.
Chokes will be fun.
Tech choice will be interesting. Alpha will allow for tech gift to Toku, but maybe we just attack him first to remove him from continent. However, I find that an AI or two on late era, will get to Alpha quite quick so we can trade for it. Elies would still be nice support unit, but those techs are kinda a waste otherwise. CS or Music path could be good. Teching will be slow for a while though.
Great Prophet? Do we create our shrine?
Do we actually adopt our religion? I know it will cause diplo problems, but OR would be helpful. And really there are no AIs that are an immediate threat. We could hold off on religion though for a bit to establish OBs and stuff.
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Oh wow somehow I stopped getting notifications here, didn't realize saves were up and so much stuff was already discussed 
I'll have to catch up -- looks like there is a huge number of different options, not going to be easy to find an efficient path to victory.
I'll have to catch up -- looks like there is a huge number of different options, not going to be easy to find an efficient path to victory.
Fippy
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Elite calculated that SP saves 4gpt, so we will be at -5 only (let's assume we switch into SP + slavery without delay)
Will increase with workers thou cos we have extra units already.
Without having tested, all cities should be able to whip workers after 4 turns (1 pop whip creates 40h here with exp + SP).
I see no real other option for that, even if we could worker steal somewhere we would still need more with so many good tiles and math chops too.
I think currency will be really valuable with 3 cities and many AIs around, we could hope for Alpha trade or tech it first ourselves (speeds up currency a bit).
Imo those 2 are the strongest tech options by far here.
Will increase with workers thou cos we have extra units already.
Without having tested, all cities should be able to whip workers after 4 turns (1 pop whip creates 40h here with exp + SP).
I see no real other option for that, even if we could worker steal somewhere we would still need more with so many good tiles and math chops too.
I think currency will be really valuable with 3 cities and many AIs around, we could hope for Alpha trade or tech it first ourselves (speeds up currency a bit).
Imo those 2 are the strongest tech options by far here.
elitetroops
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I made a rookie mistake yesterday when looking at the scoreboard. Numbers now sorted out.
For scoring purposes, known techs are converted to tech points (the number x in x/334 when you hover over scoreboard). Ancient techs are worth 1 point, classical 2 points, medieval 3 points, renaissance 4 points, industrial 5 points, modern 6 points and future 7 points. A normal classical start would have everyone start with 17 points for 17 ancient techs.
In this game starting techs give the following points:
Roosevelt: 28
Churchill: 28
Stalin: 27
Bismarck: 27
Toku: 25
Mehmed: 23
Julius: 20
We have 38. We have the most techs, but the AI all have a varying degree of extra techs.
Looking closer at the cities, Mehmed and Churchill are in Renaissance era (have at least one Renaissance tech, but nothing more advanced), Bismarck is Industrial like us, Stalin is in Modern era!
My guess is that Julius at 20 points means all ancient techs+Feudalism.
Mehmed being in Renaissance era could mean gunpowder. In addition he would have all ancient techs and one classical tech (=no feudalism).
Churchill's Renaissance tech is a mystery. Nationalism or Education could fit the theme. If Edu, he could be very fast to lib. He probably has all ancient techs, feudalism, and in addition either one renaissance tech and 2 classical techs, or 2 renaissance techs.
Stalin in Modern era... That's a bit alarming. Lots of military techs there, including techs that could allow him to counter our bomber. Also, if he has all ancient techs and one modern tech, then he cannot have feudalism. He'd have to have 2 classical techs or one renaissance tech in addition to those. It is also possible that he is in future era with one future era tech and feudalism. Or the map maker is messing with us and has removed some ancient techs from some AI.
Oh, and the world is huge! 1677 land tiles. That's plenty of room for all of Eurasia and a lot more. It's also toroidal world wrap! SP definitely needed as toroidal greatly increases distance maintenance. Distance maintenance suggests the size of the world is 104*64 tiles, which is the size of a standard terra map. Amount of land is also in the general range of a terra map. It is very possible Roosevelt's capital is in the Americas.
If someone is working on a test game, you need to start with a terra map to get the correct world size. Edit: working on test game myself now. Will upload shortly.
For scoring purposes, known techs are converted to tech points (the number x in x/334 when you hover over scoreboard). Ancient techs are worth 1 point, classical 2 points, medieval 3 points, renaissance 4 points, industrial 5 points, modern 6 points and future 7 points. A normal classical start would have everyone start with 17 points for 17 ancient techs.
In this game starting techs give the following points:
Roosevelt: 28
Churchill: 28
Stalin: 27
Bismarck: 27
Toku: 25
Mehmed: 23
Julius: 20
We have 38. We have the most techs, but the AI all have a varying degree of extra techs.
Looking closer at the cities, Mehmed and Churchill are in Renaissance era (have at least one Renaissance tech, but nothing more advanced), Bismarck is Industrial like us, Stalin is in Modern era!
My guess is that Julius at 20 points means all ancient techs+Feudalism.
Mehmed being in Renaissance era could mean gunpowder. In addition he would have all ancient techs and one classical tech (=no feudalism).
Churchill's Renaissance tech is a mystery. Nationalism or Education could fit the theme. If Edu, he could be very fast to lib. He probably has all ancient techs, feudalism, and in addition either one renaissance tech and 2 classical techs, or 2 renaissance techs.
Stalin in Modern era... That's a bit alarming. Lots of military techs there, including techs that could allow him to counter our bomber. Also, if he has all ancient techs and one modern tech, then he cannot have feudalism. He'd have to have 2 classical techs or one renaissance tech in addition to those. It is also possible that he is in future era with one future era tech and feudalism. Or the map maker is messing with us and has removed some ancient techs from some AI.
Oh, and the world is huge! 1677 land tiles. That's plenty of room for all of Eurasia and a lot more. It's also toroidal world wrap! SP definitely needed as toroidal greatly increases distance maintenance. Distance maintenance suggests the size of the world is 104*64 tiles, which is the size of a standard terra map. Amount of land is also in the general range of a terra map. It is very possible Roosevelt's capital is in the Americas.
If someone is working on a test game, you need to start with a terra map to get the correct world size. Edit: working on test game myself now. Will upload shortly.
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elitetroops
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TEST GAME
I made us yellow to make it easier to differentiate from real game, ONLY TEST IN THE YELLOW GAME!
AI cities we see are in place (except those far away Russian and Ottoman cities). I guessed that all of them will have religion for border pops. AI units not necessarily correct. AI have only all ancient techs. This game is for testing our micro, not to test AI behavior. We can add AI techs as we find out exactly what they've got.
Barbs have all ancient techs.
I used terra maps as base. Put us in correct coordinates. You can look at the map in worldbuilder to get a feel for how large the world is. This map still has a bit less land tiles than the real game.
Options should be same as in real game. Let me know if there are any mistakes!
Btw. What's with those two misplaced ocean tiles in the south??
Edit: In the real game 1-3 AI we know knows Civil Service. I gave it to Roosevelt in test game to get correct research time.
Edit 2: removed floodplain 2N1W of Beijing
I made us yellow to make it easier to differentiate from real game, ONLY TEST IN THE YELLOW GAME!
AI cities we see are in place (except those far away Russian and Ottoman cities). I guessed that all of them will have religion for border pops. AI units not necessarily correct. AI have only all ancient techs. This game is for testing our micro, not to test AI behavior. We can add AI techs as we find out exactly what they've got.
Barbs have all ancient techs.
I used terra maps as base. Put us in correct coordinates. You can look at the map in worldbuilder to get a feel for how large the world is. This map still has a bit less land tiles than the real game.
Options should be same as in real game. Let me know if there are any mistakes!
Btw. What's with those two misplaced ocean tiles in the south??
Edit: In the real game 1-3 AI we know knows Civil Service. I gave it to Roosevelt in test game to get correct research time.
Edit 2: removed floodplain 2N1W of Beijing
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Fippy
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Wow you are working so much on filtering all info out Elite, merci
Also great idea with making us yellow in test.
I think this leaves us not much choice with techs, we really need Alpha for Info?
Ofc deity AIs could reach Alpha before us, hmm..we could gamble on that and tech currency instead (we know nobody has that yet, no gold trades)
Also great idea with making us yellow in test.
I think this leaves us not much choice with techs, we really need Alpha for Info?
Ofc deity AIs could reach Alpha before us, hmm..we could gamble on that and tech currency instead (we know nobody has that yet, no gold trades)
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Wow this bomber will be very over powered. Just tried a recon mission. Revealed a huge swathe of land. Helped us to meet the final AI immediately on test game.
Betting toku has CS and machinery. The danger here for the Ai is that they start building 60-80 hammer units when they actually have very low pop cities. Be interesting to test that in world builder.
AI cities have a LB/archer in their cities. Did you mean to only give them a LB?
Tech wise. All AI on test game lacked IW. On T1 they were all teching IW. So I gave them all IW. Half switched to maths/ half to alphabet. One to HBR.
So teching currency seems sensible. Are we sure they all lack IW? We know Romans likely have IW? Or is the praet a gifted unit for start only?
Betting toku has CS and machinery. The danger here for the Ai is that they start building 60-80 hammer units when they actually have very low pop cities. Be interesting to test that in world builder.
AI cities have a LB/archer in their cities. Did you mean to only give them a LB?
Tech wise. All AI on test game lacked IW. On T1 they were all teching IW. So I gave them all IW. Half switched to maths/ half to alphabet. One to HBR.
So teching currency seems sensible. Are we sure they all lack IW? We know Romans likely have IW? Or is the praet a gifted unit for start only?
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elitetroops
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Toku having CS and Machinery makes sense. If we settle the GSpy, we could have enough EP to steal CS rather quickly. Probably faster than we could tech it.
I think Currency first make sense. Someone will have Alpha soon enough.
What to do with Great Prophet? Shrine should count as wonder and provide some immediate help. Quite significant actually, going from -5gpt to -2gpt. But passive religion spread would be slow, as all cities already seem to have a religion. Even faster boost is settling him, but that's probably too much of a short term solution. Or do we want to save him for a Golden Age?
Stalin in modern era gives him some huge boosts thanks to the iAIPerEraModifier, right? Prtty much 20% extra discount on everything.
I think Currency first make sense. Someone will have Alpha soon enough.
What to do with Great Prophet? Shrine should count as wonder and provide some immediate help. Quite significant actually, going from -5gpt to -2gpt. But passive religion spread would be slow, as all cities already seem to have a religion. Even faster boost is settling him, but that's probably too much of a short term solution. Or do we want to save him for a Golden Age?
Stalin in modern era gives him some huge boosts thanks to the iAIPerEraModifier, right? Prtty much 20% extra discount on everything.
Like I said, AI units not necessarily correct. Didn't check them, no need to worry about them in test game. Only gave them one LB in every city so that they wouldn't be run over by barbs.
Fippy
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It's interesting, while golden age with Prophet at first gets "wow now already?" reactions (from me too), it would speed up our game.
No Anarchy for switch, Bejing can whip worker in 2t and have granary ready on re-growth..other city worker whip after 3t and also granary timed with pigs improved.
By switching into Paci as well for a while, great wall city creates some new Gspy points.
I think it's something we can consider, it's a big loss with not having it available later but also of great help now..hmm.
No Anarchy for switch, Bejing can whip worker in 2t and have granary ready on re-growth..other city worker whip after 3t and also granary timed with pigs improved.
By switching into Paci as well for a while, great wall city creates some new Gspy points.
I think it's something we can consider, it's a big loss with not having it available later but also of great help now..hmm.
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Hmm..it's an interesting idea about the golden age. I do agree that the shrine will pay off very little (although the fact it is a wonder is actually probably pretty important). I'm a bit skeptical of the GA simply as a) otherwise we basically get little empire wide bonus from it b) another GA would take 2 great people. 1t anarchy saving (assuming no OR) is not much - but 2 turns assuming OR/Paci is not bad. We'd have to adopt Tao, which could hurt diplo, although I don't think any of the known AIs are very zealous - can't remember about Mehmed.
The real interesting thing is the faster GSpy points. Granted we don't have alpha, but we might trade for it by the time it arrives, and it makes settling the Gspy we have now more convincing. Or maybe settling both. Nice boost to EP and beakers if we get Mids.
Early tech stealing could be quite a boon here, cause honestly teching is very slow at first on Classical start since you a) have much more expensive techs b) no research modifiers for some time
(Another idea may be to just hold the GP for a golden age after the Mids completes...or wait until a city like Yan'an is at least size 3 again and pump out a fast GS)
I have to admit that while not traditionally viewed as optimal, it would provide "jump start" to the game so to speak
Yeah, the shrine is probably not critical to the victory points.
The real interesting thing is the faster GSpy points. Granted we don't have alpha, but we might trade for it by the time it arrives, and it makes settling the Gspy we have now more convincing. Or maybe settling both. Nice boost to EP and beakers if we get Mids.
Early tech stealing could be quite a boon here, cause honestly teching is very slow at first on Classical start since you a) have much more expensive techs b) no research modifiers for some time
(Another idea may be to just hold the GP for a golden age after the Mids completes...or wait until a city like Yan'an is at least size 3 again and pump out a fast GS)
I have to admit that while not traditionally viewed as optimal, it would provide "jump start" to the game so to speak
Yeah, the shrine is probably not critical to the victory points.
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Fippy
Mycro Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2013
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Yep, basic idea would be saving 3 Anarchy turns if we want Paci or OR (switching into Tao would also create extra Anarchy).
+ 2-3 turns earlier workers and granaries.
We would have to translate that into some advantages later, possible would be earlier Chokus for starting our wars.
And doing something with a faster 2nd Gspy.
Building Tao shrine for 4 wonder points would be a mistake imo, am confident we can get enuf points from wonders without shrines.
I think we did narrow Prophet options down to golden age (at whichever point) or settling in seafood city..2h would not be terrible there, and moving him north first should be the worst option lol (also speaks against shrine, being in the wrong place).
Just not sure we can justify spending him on that.
+ 2-3 turns earlier workers and granaries.
We would have to translate that into some advantages later, possible would be earlier Chokus for starting our wars.
And doing something with a faster 2nd Gspy.
Building Tao shrine for 4 wonder points would be a mistake imo, am confident we can get enuf points from wonders without shrines.
I think we did narrow Prophet options down to golden age (at whichever point) or settling in seafood city..2h would not be terrible there, and moving him north first should be the worst option lol (also speaks against shrine, being in the wrong place).Just not sure we can justify spending him on that.
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Yep the wonder issue for 4 points should not really be considered here. The Ai will likely build many shrines anyway. Albeit they all start with writing here. Be amazed if none got built.
I do like the idea about tech stealing. We have no reason to start teching anything at start as we will be negative gold anyway. On Deity a 4th city would be punishing too early? Sure we could attack the nearby Ai cities but they may have been placed there to give us a chance to tech steal? Seems to me many Ai have been given free techs here. The only risk to this is if we can steal CS early on. We would need a turn of anarchy for this. I also wonder if the Ai with religions also have that starting techs. So does someone have Theo, DR and other techs?
Snowball effect early on. Early workers, earlier improvements quicker Gspy. Instead of 50 turns we could get one in 6gptx8T=48gpt. Plus 13 turns if we adopt religion and run pacifism. 21 turns. Instead of 25? Assuming religion adopted. Also that we don't switch back to OR. OR is useful on granaries/lib? Assuming we don't want an early library here and GS elsewhere. Size 3 city with 2xGS? 2nd Gspy is not bad here.
War wise. Note all these cities nearby are size 1. So we would need to wait for them to reach size 2 to capture. On test game most of these size 1 AI cities are building worker as first builds.So I can see much worker stealing opportunities here. Unless they have sea food resources? Also many cities staying at size 1 for a long while if building workers.
Question of the golden age later on. If we are going conquest here bulbing holds less value. How much deep teching will we do? We already have philosophy. If Ai get LB/Pikemen and mace quickly then CKN won't have a big life. Knights would also be less useful. Albeit Cuirs could be too slow. If we can quickly abuse CKN then these could be very strong with bomber. (Don't forget about that bomber!)
Were talking mids a lot here. How likely would we really build this? Lot of early hammers. Better to capture? Really pends on how quickly we can build a city network and if we have other city spots to settle. That and go war mode. Are there any Ai capitals near us? Or are we sitting among 1 city cities while there capitals are elsewhere.
Lots to consider and think about.
I do like the idea about tech stealing. We have no reason to start teching anything at start as we will be negative gold anyway. On Deity a 4th city would be punishing too early? Sure we could attack the nearby Ai cities but they may have been placed there to give us a chance to tech steal? Seems to me many Ai have been given free techs here. The only risk to this is if we can steal CS early on. We would need a turn of anarchy for this. I also wonder if the Ai with religions also have that starting techs. So does someone have Theo, DR and other techs?
Snowball effect early on. Early workers, earlier improvements quicker Gspy. Instead of 50 turns we could get one in 6gptx8T=48gpt. Plus 13 turns if we adopt religion and run pacifism. 21 turns. Instead of 25? Assuming religion adopted. Also that we don't switch back to OR. OR is useful on granaries/lib? Assuming we don't want an early library here and GS elsewhere. Size 3 city with 2xGS? 2nd Gspy is not bad here.
War wise. Note all these cities nearby are size 1. So we would need to wait for them to reach size 2 to capture. On test game most of these size 1 AI cities are building worker as first builds.So I can see much worker stealing opportunities here. Unless they have sea food resources? Also many cities staying at size 1 for a long while if building workers.
Question of the golden age later on. If we are going conquest here bulbing holds less value. How much deep teching will we do? We already have philosophy. If Ai get LB/Pikemen and mace quickly then CKN won't have a big life. Knights would also be less useful. Albeit Cuirs could be too slow. If we can quickly abuse CKN then these could be very strong with bomber. (Don't forget about that bomber!)
Were talking mids a lot here. How likely would we really build this? Lot of early hammers. Better to capture? Really pends on how quickly we can build a city network and if we have other city spots to settle. That and go war mode. Are there any Ai capitals near us? Or are we sitting among 1 city cities while there capitals are elsewhere.
Lots to consider and think about.
