[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising

New city contributions (work in progress), starting with HK
Spoiler :

T1 Spy
T2 Pavillon
T3 Pav whip
T4 100 failgold (Mauso)
T5 Spy whip
T6 Spy cold
T7 Spy of
T8 Spy
T9 Spy whip
T10 Spy cold (gems)
T11 84 failgold (Parth)
T12-16
T17 HA cold
Silky
Spoiler :

T1 Library whip
T2 79 failgold (Mauso)
T3 Spy
T4 whip Spy
T5 Glib
T6 Spy
T7 whip Spy
T8 Glib
T9 whip Glib
T10 Spy cold
T11 Spy cold
T12 Spy cold
T13 2 scientists, CH
T14 HA
T15 Ch whip
T16 Pav
T17 wealth
T18 Pav whip
T19 HA whip
CH, Pavillon, HA

Surf
Spoiler :

T1 HG
T2 LH whip
T3 132 ToA failgold
T4 Spy
T5 whip Spy
T6 75 failgold (parth)
T7 Spy
T8 whip Spy
T9 Mona cold
T10 missio
T11 Spy
T12 Spy
T13 Spy cold
T14 Spy
T15-17 CH
T18 coast, HA
T19 whip HA

Holy Farm
Spoiler :

T1 Spy
T2 IA whip
T3 75 failgold (Glib) (Spy)
T4 Spy whip (drop Rice)
T5 Spy (Rice)
T6 Spy whip
T7 65 failgold (NE) (Spy)
T8 Spy cold
T9 65 failgold (Shweg)
T10 Spy cold
T11 65 failgold (Hagia)
T12
T13 wealth, specialists until gifted
cannot work on CH anymore

FV
Spoiler :

1 Mauso
2 Spy
3 whip Spy
4 Pav cold
5 Mauso finishes
6 Lib
7 Lib
8 whip Lib (drop Iron)
9 NE (Iron for wheat)
10 whip NE (drop Iron)
11 Spy
12 whip Spy (drop wheat)
13 CH chops
14 whip CH, Iron for Corn
15 add 1 Spy specialist, Spy (backup) chop
16 ?
17 Artist finishes
Pavillon and CH #2, Great Artist (T17)

Mongolia
Spoiler :

T1 spy
T2 whip spy
T3 96 Failgold (Mauso)
T4 ToA (chop)
T5 cold whip spy
T6 ToA finishes
T7 Spy
T8 Spy done
T9 Spy (chop)
T10 Spy citizen
T11 Spy cold
T12 Spy Iron for sheep (60h)
T13 Spy
T14+ chariots
GC
Spoiler :

T1 Spy
T2 Spy
T3 Spy
T4 Spy
T5 Spy whip
T6 gets desert gold improved from worker inside city, starts working now. Spy with of.
T7 Spy
T8 Spy
T9 Spy done
T10 Spy (cottage for cows)
T11 Spy whip, delay chop
T12 Spy chop
T13 Spy
T14 wealth

Tokyo
Spoiler :

T1 Worker
T2 Spy
T3 Spy
T4 whip Spy (mine)
T5 CI + chop 142h
T6 Spy (mine)
T7 Spy (plains cottage)
T8 whip Spy
T9 CI (chop) 251h
T10 minor gold build
T11 same (green cott)
T12 same
T13 CI + chop + mine 328h
T14-16 CI (cottages)
T17 Pav 2h
T18 decide if needed
CI

Dye-La
Spoiler :

T1 Spy
T2 Spy (work cow + empty Rice)
T3 same
T4 Spy, work improved dye
T5 add Rice again
T6 whip Spy
T7 Spy of
T8 Spy
T9 Spy whip
T10 Spy chop
T11 Spy
T12 Spy whip
T13 88g Shweg

Dancing :banana:
Spoiler :

T1 granary
T2 gran finishes (silver)
T3 HA
T4 whip HA
T5 HA (2f forest)
T6 whip HA
T7 Spy
T8 Spy (copper)
T9 whip Spy
T10 Spy of
T11 Spy copper
T12 whip Spy
T13 wealth
T14 65 Shweg gold
2 HAs, 3 Spies (48), 65 Shweg gold

Orient
Spoiler :

T1 Choko
T2 whip Choko
T3 Shweg
T4 Pavillon (gets gold)
T5 Pavillon whip
T6 Shweg
T7 Spy
T8 Shweg + chop
T9 Spy
T10 Spy
T11 whip Spy
T12 Shweg + chop
T13 ?
T14 ?
T15 Shweg + chop
T16 Shweg 407h needed
T17 Shweg whip
Shweg T18

Cowabunga
needs mine built for AW
Spoiler :

T1 Pyras (chop & mine with workers sw)
T2 Parth
T3 Settler + chop
T4 Settler whip
T5 AW + chop (forest)
T6 Spy
T7 Parth + chop (forest)
T8 Spy (mine)
T9 parth + chop
T10 Whip Parth
T11 Spy (delay chop, forest)
T12 Spy (Iron, chop)
T13 Spy
T14 Spy
T15 AW
T16 AW
T17 AW
T18 AW mine for cows
T19 AW
T20 whip AW
Angkor Wat

PL (not fully decided yet on GP risk)
Spoiler :

1 CH
2 forge whip (work 5 floodplains)
3 IA
4 chop completes IA
5 CH whip + chop (1 cottage)
6 wealth (3 spies, marble + horse + 3fp)
7 AP 68h
8 Spy
9 whip Spy (drop marble)
10 AP (marble for fp)
11 Spy
12 whip Spy (drop marble)
13 AP + chop (3h hill, 2h, no pigs)
14 Spy, cottage + pigs
15 whip Spy, 1 scientist (14, 215h)
16 AP + chop, Gspy out, 1 Spy, pigs, 3h, Engi
17 Pavillon cold, 3h Engi
18 Engi, cottage
19 whip AP
Gspy (T16), AP T20, CH #3

Peking
Spoiler :

1 Tao
2 IA
3 IA
4 IA
5 IA + chop
6 Tao + 4 Spy specialists
7 Tao
8 Tao
9 Spy
10 Spy cold + Gspy #1
11 Sistine
12 Sistine
13 Sistine, drop 1 Spy take Ivory
14 same
15 Tao, 4th Spy drop Ivory
16 whip Tao, 3 Spies
17 Sistine, drop all food, 4 Spies
18 food, Iron, 4 Spies
19 whip Sistine, 4 Spies
20 Gspy #2
Sistine, Gspy T20

Legendary Gift

1 Spy (58), ?

Moscow
Spoiler :

3 HA #1
4 HA #2 cold (Iron + coast)
5 HA #3 (chop)
6 HA
7 HA #4 (chop, use forest)
8 HA (coast)
9 HA #5 whip (chop)
10 failgold (HS)

Mumbai
Spoiler :

6 HA
7 Hagia + chop
8 HA whip (forest, worker pre-chop mill)
9 Hagia, workers pre-chop
10 Spy lake
11 whip Spy
12 triple chop Hagia, complete
T13 CH
T14 CH
T15 whip CH, rice, chop
T16 barracks, lake
T17 whip barracks
T18 HE + chop
T19 whip HE
CH, HE

St. Pete
Spoiler :
Worker under Berlin needed
13 chop Pav
14 chop chariot (moscow)
15 whip chariot (hamburg)
16 culture
17 wealth (citizen)
18 wealth
19 Globe
20 whip globe
Pavillons T18 needed

Berlin worker west of Istanbul needed
Spoiler :

T15 culture, chop out of border
T16 CH (farm, cottages, citizen)
T17 whip CH, delay 1 chop, citizens
T18 Spy + cottage
T19 FP 169h
T20 whip FP
 
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Not really much help on this as you are way ahead in terms of city micro.
 
Hi!

Back at civ again (life is full of surprises lol)
Didn't yet have the time to read through the whole entire thread, but the level of thinking I've seen here is truly mind-blowing.

I most likely won't be able to contribute much at this point, but I'm genuinely amazed by the work you guys have done here.

:)
 
Any help on the end game would be most welcome
 
Of course! I'm struggling with Buffy right now, but I'll definitely open the save as soon as I can. Simply not sure I'll tell you anything you don't know already.
 
Hiya Pedro ;)

Just got done with Mongolia and adjusted some stuff, with breaks ofc..
this takes quiet some time, but we have to get full city plans now it's not possible with this amount of stuff we need otherwise.
 
Up to 32 spies. Micro queen!
 
34 ;)
Ah well, 7 cities today..same tomorrow, and we can be almost ready.

Looks not bad, 21 more Spies needed but we have around the amount of failgold we need already.
55 Spies = confirmed if we can get 23 wonders?
 
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I think so. Each 4k culture reduces number of spies by about 14 or so. As at 4k culture you start by gaining 200. If our Toku spy lives we will have 2 more.

So we need to think what units we might need too. Also how we plan to finish all these wonders so quickly. Forest chops for end wonders and whip units at front lines? Captured cities won't be too useful now as they will all be in revolt for 3-7 turns.
 
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St. Peters from Stalin will be very valuable actually, at least 1 big wonder (like Globe, 300h with no bonuses near the end) should be planned here.
10 forests that we probably could not chop quickly enuf into units.

Cowabunga will also have to work hard on wonders, still 5 forests + forge after Pyras.
Mumbai will have 6.
I hope we have enuf workers, Hagia Sophia should be of huge priority once we have Theo.

Tokyo should be good for 1 smaller wonder, with 3 forests + 2 out of culture.
Good that we whipped a worker here i think.

PL & Peking i consider doing last, they can fill out all kinds of roles but we will want to know first what we miss.
 
hey hey...sorry, been busy last coupla days. Just wanted to pop in and give a special shout out to My for her effort in this planning. ;) ...my head is spinning.

Not much to add myself at this point. The main planning is really a one man...erm...woman...job....other than checks and balances
 
Merci Lymo ;)

I could certainly use help with AP stuff, what do we need?
Missios, gift settlers, maybe something else?
I can fill them into city micro, but unclear on exact numbers for those 58 AP points.
 
We will need a tao mish for americans. Them and English will need our religion. They won't accept a gift city if we completely wipe them off our continent and they have above 4 cities. Americans could do this.

For Ap vote we need Americans and English to vote for us. Should do as vassels.

We need to ensure we start with less than 75% of the Tao vote. So we may need to whip heavily.

Assuming 100% vote for us we will get 58 points.

We may also want to do a trial run with spies on a set up to match this game. We can't afford to have too few spies.
 
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: Fantastic planning! :hatsoff:

Involved in a festival here, very busy until sunday.

Missionaries we need at least AP religion to our vassals and our state religion to gift EP city.

Assuming everything else goes according to plan, then with 23 wonders we are safe at 421 points with a total of 69k culture. EP city has 8k base culture, every successful spy mission multiplies this by 1.05. With 44 successful missions it should reach 8000*1.05^44 = 68 457:culture: (minus a few for rounding, I guess). This should easily be enough.

We can use binomial probability formula to calculate our chances. Assuming the probability for each spy is 85%, then with 55 spies we have 88% chance of succeeding at least 44 times. With 56 spies this becomes 93%, add a 57th spy and now we are at 96%.
 
We should capture some workers. We have 2 Toku worker to catch. I wonder if gifting city to Toku will prove a mistake here. Have to wait and see I guess. Be 3 turns before spies reach 50% here. If they get caught we will need a rethink here. 480 EP on Toku. Could need 528 or so?
 
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Not sure how gifting Toku Holy Pigs was a mistake....we'll get CS from him and kill him
(in short term, if producing spies we may want to station 2 or 3 near Holy Pigs, for now, just in case the first two fail)

I'm not totally sure on exactly what we need for AP. I assume now that Tao will be the AP religion.

The knowns:

1) Theo teched > Build AP
2) To enable vote, every living civ needs at least 1 city with the AP religion
3) Full members (running AP religion) get double votes based on population in cities with AP religion / Voting member (not in AP religion) get normal votes based on pop in cities with AP
4) AP owner (assuming us) is always one of the two candidates for both Resident voting and DV voting
(this may be important as you don't have to be in AP religion to win DV if you own the Palace)
5) no civ can have more the 75% of all DV votes
6) Vassals must vote for master. However, a vassal can be a DV candidate if a Full member (we don't want a vassal in Tao - probably unlikely anyway)


As mentioned, the assumption is Stalin and Toke will be dead. That leaves 6 other civs. Americans are assumed to be vassal and we can gift him more cities with Tao. In fact, we probably should gift the remaining cities with Tao to increase his Tao pop. Ottos I think we might just kill. Not sure on the remaining 4.

Assuming Russia, Japan, Ottos dead and Americans are vassal, we would need to gift 4 living civs with a Tao city (assuming they will have 3 or less cities). We can place these anywhere near us for fast settle/spread. So:

4 settlers/4 mishes for French/English/Romans/Germans

Not totally sure on our plan for Americans, but seem to recall wanting 4 gift cities to attack to make him a vassal. That would be 3 more settlers and I think we should Tao up each one.

Above changes based on killing more of the civs (Germans?)..or maybe we just cap everyone else except maybe Ottos.

Regardless, that is a good bit of stuff to produce.

As for how to deal with the vote %, I can't really fathom that at the moment. We can do calcs on religion/pop as we move forward. Once AP is built we can see it too. But right now, that number would fluctuate quite a lot due to frequent pop changes. As noted above, we could change out of Tao out the end if our Tao pop is just too much and still qualify for DV.

We could probably do a hypothetical calc on Tao % based on the above assumptions, but I'm not sure how accurate I am on those assumption. Probably assume for now that each Tao city outside our own will be only 1 pop.

Hmm..right now we have 23 Tao pop. So 46 as a full member. Also, I think we plan to spread Tao to one or two more of our cities for Paci. But going by what we have now, and assuming at least 8 more 1pop Tao cities, that leaves us a 85% of the vote. If we are not in Tao, that would put us at 74%.

They way I look at it now is that we can enable the vote, but unless we significantly reduce our own Tao pop, we will have problems with the 75% threshold, unless we switch out of Tao.

I guess we could also gift one of the larger Tao cities near the end like Holy Farm, but that also may have an impact on the civil ministry numbers.
===========

Yep, the more we kill the less we need. I thought we might kill Germans. However, we should keep in mind that this means less Tao cities outside our own, so we will need to figure out the math on that as we go.

hey hey ;)

let's not forget that Jan and Praet that are both perpetually patrolling (or just trolling) our empire

Yep, less Tao pop will be necessary one way or another (or switching out of Tao). Some cities might grow fast though, but we could avoid growth if necessary (something to think about near the end).

We also should keep tabs on Roos after we vassal him. We could gift him a larger Tao city near the end to reduce our votes and increase his. However, we don't want him switching to Tao either. Not sure what his demos are at the moment. (that is, ofc, if we can still gift him stuff ..elite can answer whether their is a limit on another continent)

(and yeah..can't gift cities with wonders, ofc)

I assumed he was referring to civil ministry
 
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Erm we need to Kill French German Ottoman and Romans otherwise we need more culture score.No point keeping more Ai alive here.

Only keeping English alive due to Redcoats. Also the low power of these Ai would make capping them harder. If we gift cities they can't have wonders. We would need to make a demand before end to ensure no Ai adopts the religion.

20 turns of warfare can easily take down 3-4+ Ai here. Especially with HA. I doubt the other AI will spam as much as Russia did unit wise.

My thoughts on Toku was teching vs slider at 100%. Maybe it wasn't a bad call.

Can we have a list of wonders and where we intend to build each? Might help give a better picture here.

If we plan on Deg living we need to adjust the ministry score. Loses 2 points? 95.83. I don't think we can include percentages?
 
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Okay new post
/wave Lymo

Biz must be dead for sure too, he's close enuf.
(Stalin army goes there after St. Pete, hopefully well reinforced)

I also hope on JC dead, where our Mumbai remains + new stuff like some HAs move now.
I think we should plan on DeG, Roosy & Church left.

I think one important tool we could have near the end will be whipping / starving most of our Tao cities down heavily, less Tao pop should solve that problem?
One reason why i keep Peking & PL as last for city micro, and FV (Tao for Great Artist Paci) has no plans beyond T13 yet.

Which ministry, Gumbo..they are all called ministry?

Hmm in which way does it affect us, export / imports thingy?
True, but they will probably have settled 1+ more until we get there.
 
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Civil Ministry: 100 points* (81-the sum of 9 ranks) /72
With Deg alive it drops us 2 points.

I am asking DH if were allowed to include decimals but I suspect each number will always be rounded down.

(points will be rounded down for each member before being summed up)

8 cities in 20 turns is not impossible. We'll be whipping HA too.

We will always be last in exports. 1 point on export/imports knocks us down 1.4 points. So down 2 points. We lose about 1.4 points for each additional vassal. In which case it might be better to take 4 vassals and aim for a further tech for 4 wonder points?

If we plan to do gift 4 city trick on each Ai that requires even more work and settlers.

Maybe they will have more cities. We should have more units. Plus we'll have a bomber. I think the Ai is packed tightly on this map.

Overall for each Ai we vassal we need a plan for more points.
 
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