1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[BTS] SGOTM 25 Pre-Game Discussion and Announcement

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by Deckhand, Dec 18, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,491
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Note, some items are still in development and everything below is subject to change.
    Let's use this thread to discuss the scenario and rules.

    SGOTM 25 Announcement - Mao, Leader of the Ancient Empire


    China probably has the longest continuous written history (3,500 years) of any country in the world. Now it’s your turn to be the leader of China at one of its most dangerous perishing moments.

    “Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.”--------Confucius
    “Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."---------Mao Zedong

    The game will start from Classic age. And each team selects their level to play.
    1. If you choose emperor level, you’ll get the Great Wall.
    2. If you choose immortal level, you’ll get more techs on top of the Great Wall, including Mathematics, Code of Laws, Drama, Metal Casting, Machinery, Iron Working, Philosophy and Communism.
    3. If you choose deity level, you’ll get more units on top of the techs and the Great Wall, including a bomber, a great spy and a great prophet.
    Mao, the Chinese leader, will be rated by 7 ministry members in the Political Bureau when the victory comes. The maximum points which can be scored by each member is 100 points.
    The faster team winning the game with 420 points will be awarded the laurel. If two team wins at the same turn, the team with higher points wins.
    • Culture Ministry: 100 points * the total culture of the top 3 cities/150,000
    • Diplomatic Ministry: 25 points for being AP leader, 25 points for being UN leader, 50 points for diplomatic victory votes: 25 points * AP victory votes % / 75%+ 25 points* UN victory votes % / 67%
    • Civil Ministry: 100 points* (81-the sum of 9 ranks) /72
    • Military Ministry: 30 points * population% / 35% + 30 points * Land area % / 60% + 40 points * (destroyed civilization + vassal civilization )/ 8
    • Science Ministry: 100 points * eras of all techs learned / 7
    • Economy Ministry: 100 points * cities with corporation / total cities (except barbarians)
    • Construction Ministry: 100 points * wonders owned/25. (All wonders(world+national) count.)
    (points will be rounded down for each member before being summed up)

    Your starting area
    Click for a full size image [subject to change]


    Game Options
    Rivals: 8 AIs
    Difficulty: Emperor, Immortal, or Deity
    Starting Era: Classical
    Speed: Normal
    Options: No Events, No Goody Huts
    Victory Conditions: All enabled

    Map settings
    Map: Custom
    Mapsize: Standard

    Mao is Expansive and Protective
    You start with all Ancient Techs and More for Immortal/Deity starts.

    Unique Unit: Cho-Ku-Nu
    Unique Building: Pavilion

    =================================

    Notes
    • Versions
      This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the to be released BUFFY-3.19.005 HoF mod.
      If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in BtS version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or you should create and update a separate copy. See also the note about Steam updates below.

      Macintosh players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows software on their system.
    • Steam
      If you play BtS using Steam, then your BtS will auto-update to a new version which is incompatible with those playing the DVD version. You will therefore need to install the Steam "beta" version to play this game. You can check whether your copy of BtS is compatible by downloading the to be provided save. If it loads OK in your copy of BtS, then you are ready to play.
    • Rules and Procedures
      Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

      Note, the usual GOTM restrictions apply: no replaying, no liberating cities to a civ you are at war with (except in peace deal), no subsidizing resource trades with AI, no goto mapping or flying camera, only 1 tech from Oracle/Liberalism.

      All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  2. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,491
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Some topics we can discuss in this thread:
    1. Goody Huts
    2. Events
    3. Religions
    4. Immortal and Deity bonuses
    5. Scoring
    6. Other questions about scenario
    7. Starting screenshot
    8. BUFFY version.
    9. Anything else

    1,2,3 - Huts and Events are fun. sossos likes variety, randomness, and uncertainty; while I agree generally, I think it should be minimized for the competition. So, my inclination is to pre-assign Holy Cities and some religions to cities and to disable huts/events - but I'd be happy to change my mind in response to community.

    4. The bonuses for higher level saves are quite strong. They are intended to enable lower level players to play at the higher level. We may adjust these in response to our playtesting and your feedback.

    5. Is scoring clear? I'm sure someone will ask something.

    6, 9. We are also open to other questions

    7. Do you want the starting screenshot recaptured from BUFFY version and if/when religions have been assigned? That would show the city count and religion distribution. I'm inclined to keep that a surprise. (It's not like you have any settling choices to discuss).

    8. BUFFY version 5 is scheduled for release in early January. After your teams have been formed, but before you are given your saves. We would like to transition BOTM and SGOTM to BUFFY 5.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/help-test-buffy-005-beta-gauntlet.625310.

    Lots to talk about
    :wavey:
     
  3. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,110
    Gender:
    Female
    You will have to change that, nobody will pick Emperor against such a huge amount of techs ;)
    Not a huge jump from Emp to Imm anyways, and especially Communism is super strong.

    Goody Huts have no place in sgotm imo.

    Another thingie to consider about difficulty levels, deity i.e. is so hard cos of AIs extra starting units (especially 2 settlers). Would they get extra units?

    One word about the AP, imo we must be careful when setting up games that it's not the easiest and fastest win option too often.
    It's in general considered broken, i did not look over the point system calculations yet, but would certainly be disappointed if AP turns out best (again).
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,501
    Military Ministry: 30 points * population% / 35% - Is it somewhere silently implied that Pop score is capped at 30? (With a no vassals conquest victory the team would have 100% population, or 30 points * 100% / 35% = 85 points.)
     
  5. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    22,400
    Interesting challenge.

    Picture link is wrong.

    1. What is meant by "vassal civilization"? Destroyed vassal or vassalized vassal?
    2. Mass Media obsoletes AP, right? How to get more than 50 diplo points?
    3. Civil: What???
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  6. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,957
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    I think the top players tend to underestimate the jump from Emperor to Immortal but yes with that amount of techs I'll be astonished if anyone picks Emperor.
     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    21,358
    Mass Media obsoletes AP for the civs that have teched it, so essentially to make it a non-factor, give all civs MM. (ofc, that makes UN a very early factor in the game which is probably not a good thing)

    Another interesting option might be to add a barb AI civ on a secret island somewhere only reachable by Astronomy, and require some good exploration. Give the city AP and Islam, and the barb civ DR.

    Maybe, but those who've played/won all difficulties are a pretty good judge of the discrepancies between levels, and it really is not much between EMP/IMM. I'd put it about on par with the Noble/Prince jump. The main diff just being the faster AI tech speed, but pretty much everything else is on par. The jump from IMM to Deity is astronomical compared to any other levels. The only other notable jump, relatively speaking, is probably Prince -> Monarch, but that is still not much and really only for newer players moving up and dealing with the bonus units and stuff. (Don't get me wrong though, IMM is indeed harder, but I think the pain of it is felt more at first simply as you are dealing with higher difficulty in general)

    Seems to me with a Classical start that Religion needs to be addressed here as well, unless the mapmaker already assigned the religions. The unpredictability of the initial allotment of the early religions can make a notable difference in each team's game. You know, like ..say..having teams start on different difficulty levels :confused:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,873
    Location:
    UK
    Yes diisable huts and events. Free techs and events such as golden ages could be game changers.

    4. Pends if the Ai are starting with more units/techs on higher levels. Even so this would only speed up the games.

    Civil Ministry: 100 points* (81-the sum of 9 ranks) /72 - What is the sum of 9 ranks?
    Economy Ministry: 100 points * cities with corporation / total cities (except barbarians) - Total cities on map? Or just your own?
    Techs. I assume by eras you mean ancient, classical etc. Not all of the techs researched.

    Can I assume BODMAS? (Brackets open divide multiply add subtract.) Or do you intend the calculations to be done in order of listing? Places where divide happens first this can impact it.

    Diplomatic Ministry:
    25 points for being AP leader,
    25 points for being UN leader,
    50 points for diplomatic victory votes:
    Ap victory points - 25 points * AP victory votes % / 75%
    and or for un victory points - 25 points* UN victory votes % / 67%
    I assume the 4th and 5th option here on diplomatic is for teams that choose an option such as conquest/culture or domination. Albeit you would have 100% of AP vote for any conquest. So for conquest 25+25 (assuming Ap is built)+% of UN votes assuming the UN is built.

    Military Ministry: 30 points * population% / 35% + 30 points * Land area % / 60% + 40% * (destroyed civilization + vassal civilization )/ 8
    Can we just say divide by 35 instead of 35%? Same for 60%.

    Agree with LTC please explain - (destroyed civilization + vassal civilization )/8 Do you mean number of civs destroyed+vassels. So this would always add up to 8? Unless you can create colonies. Then it is a case of how many colonies a player could create. BODMAS really causes big questions on the military ministry.

    Some number examples here would be good for the longer equations. So all teams understand. Were not all maths people.
     
  9. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,957
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    I agree needs clarified - not sure why you would divide by a percentage but if it's really what is meant it's quite different than diving by an Integer.
     
  10. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,957
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    That's fine in general but not in a SGOTM, as has been said free Techs or a an extra Golden Age make comparing games totally impossible and I'm not convinced that should be part of a competitive tournament.
     
  11. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,957
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    Interesting - I've won games on all levels but would totally disagree with this. I think there's hardly any difference from Noble -> Prince but Emp -> IMM is huge (and then there's a great chasm to Deity!).

    Anyone the main point from this discussion is regardless of how big you think the jump is then 8 techs, many of them very strong, easily bridges it. Heck even getting Communism on t50 might be enough!!
     
  12. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,239
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
  13. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    22,400
    In addition to my above questions, my comments on the scenario are this.

    1. I'm against huts and events.
    2. Try to make the early religion thing fair to all teams.
    3. Deity bonuses as described are so turbo-charged that winning this SG on the two lower levels is probably impossible. Explaining further why I see it that way would be spoilerish, but I can see why sossos thought everyone could win this at deity.
    4. I like the points challenge to this scenario.
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,665
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Wow, I just read half of the intro and it sounds great! I can't imagine anyone will play option 1. Give up all that tech for dropping from IMM to EMP? no way.
    Need to process more.
     
  15. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    Sounds fun. How do you sign up for this?
     
  16. jatamixx

    jatamixx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Would it be derailing too much asking Sossos, where the Mao quote is taken from ? :)

    Will there be plenty of :beer: in QingDao ? :hide:
     
  17. jatamixx

    jatamixx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    On emperor, there is surely a penalty on:science: and :hammers: produced by the AI, relatively to its immortal counterpart.
    Over the course of the game, how much would that amount to ? Something comparable with ~10k:science: in technologies? (communism, etc...)

    Hence Sossos gives a penalty to the team playing against a handicapped AI. Things are balanced out :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    22,400
    Easy. Just go to the sign-up thread.
     
    Pedro78 likes this.
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    22,400
    Many differences.
    Just some of them:
    Code:
                       Emperor  Immortal  Deity
                       -------  --------  -----
    Our tech rate      *120%     *125%    *130%
    AI city units         2         3        4  (at start of game)
    AI city pop growth  *90%      *85%     *80% (food)
    AI unit/build rate  *85%      *80%     *60% (wonders = *100%)
    AI start workers      0         1        1  (or is deity 2?)
    AI worker rate       50%       75%     100% faster, iiuc
    Barb city  defenders  3         4        4
    AI settlers           1         1        2
    
    
    and there are per era bonuses that will come into play.
     
  20. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,110
    Gender:
    Female
    I think it's mainly about the great snowball effect that having all those techs earlier would give.
    I find it very difficult turning that effect into numbers :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page