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[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Wondering if the map doesn't suggest that we are likely to need Astro for Dom'n.

    No one has commented on implications of America being able to research Semiconductors. I can't figure out what might be going on there, but I fear an evil mapmaker at work. Is it possible that DOWing on America could lead to nuclear war?
     
  2. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    I have prepared a plan for 4-5 turns. Can play Thursday.

    Technologies

    Keep researching Aesthetics. We probably want to gift or trade it to get the AI busy building wonders and giving us great fail gold options.

    Dealing with AIs
    Keep an eye out for Monarchy trade without giving up MC. Stay on good terms with Bismarck, Roosevelt and Caesar.

    City placement and builds
    Settle city "blue" in India (See map below). Direct settler near Moscow to food rich northern city spot. Direct Manchou settler to silver city. A missionary must be built to accompany the settler going for silver.
    Southern settler plus additional settler built in Guangzhou will go for the orange and pink city. We probably also want a settler for the copper city on the southern island, 1N of copper. Move galley to Nanjing preparing for this. Copper opens up fail gold opportunities with Colossus.

    Blue city
    Northern cities


    Guangzhou: Globe - settler - Tao missionary (silver) - settler - Globe
    Yan'an: Security Agency 3-pop - Mids -
    Beijing: Spy - Tao missionary (for Tsingtao) - science
    Shanghai: Mids - galley (for a few turns) 1-pop - Mids
    Manchou: Settler 2-pop - spy - barracks
    Mongolia: Forge - barracks 1-pop - Mids - HA
    Xian: Granary - archer
    Mumbai: HA 1-pop - Globe - HA
    Hong Kong: WB
    Nanjing: Lighthouse 2-pop - WB
    St. Petersburg: Monument (Not very food rich)
    Moscow: Granary


    General micro
    Try to time a chop with the Mids overflow builds. Chops in St Pete and Moscow. Improve resource tiles. Build watermills, windmills. Cottage grassland that can't be farmed.

    Civics and religion

    War
    Surprise attack on Edirne. Build stack on tile 2N2W of Edirne. We can have 4 HA plus one Chariot there in 3 turns. DOW and do airstrike from Hamburg (No open borders btw Mehmed and Bismarck) before immediate attack. Should be safe against 3 archers. Move wounded units and Medic to Moscow for healing. Start building stack for attack on Istanbul.

    Bigger picture
    We want to prepare for stealing Construction from Bismarck and start building some Security Agencys for lots of passive spy points that can later be converted to culture or stolen techs. Priorities are generating fail gold and expanding with settlers.
     
  3. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Like the plan. Some thoughts:

    There is copper in NY. It may work out that we take NY before we are ready to settle copper city on southern landmass.

    If we eliminate Mehmed, will JC still trade us Monarchy? He wouldn't in Vanilla, so perhaps we should make the trade before attacking Mehmed. JC will also take Philosophy for Monarchy. (Note that we will get an improved wine in Istanbul, so wondering how important Monarchy is right now.)

    There are a number of workers going about their tasks within the Ottoman empire, and we are going to need workers to help develop all the new cities we will be founding in the west. So, try to locate them and try to make sure we end up with all of them.

    Went inside Tsing (just to verify that it could be done) and found a German factory. That requires Assembly Line, and Assembly Line can't be researched without Civil Service (and several subsequent techs), but Germany does not have CS. What to make of this? Why would the mapmaker put a factory inside the city when there are more consequential buildings he could have installed?

    Wondering if it isn't too late to be building cottages, at least in most cases (e.g. where there is not any other commerce from the tile), when there's chopping and other improvements needed.
     
  4. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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  5. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Just a couple of quick comments:-

    The Assembly Plant (factory replacement) is Germany's UB - it seems to me a casual glance that the Map Maker has enabled each Civs UU & UB perhaps?

    Is there any scope to sabotage production of the Pyramids to give us a few more turns of "Wonder Bread" for it?
     
  6. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    EDIT: My plans for tonight have been cancelled so I will play my turns in about 4 hours instead of tomorrow unless someone requests more time for discussion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  7. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Questions relative to immediate play answered above. (Did not know Monarchy was a monopoly tech in BtS.) No concerns meriting further discussion here. Green to play.

    Note that there has been no religion spread. Map maker intervention? At any rate, if we are going to build Glib and National Epic in Tsing, then a missionary for that city will be highly desirable in the not-to-distant future. If we are not going to build them in Tsing, then a library needs to be built soon in the alternative city. Similarly, a missionary will be desirable for wherever we chose to build an aqueduct and the HG.

    If we are not going after America next, then are we going to take on the French or the Romans soon after Mehmed is dead, while our units are in the west?

    "de Gaulle has either Education or Guilds because they can research Gunpowder." So, France may have Guilds and be able to build knights, if he has access to both horses and iron? Paris has iron. Wondering if Orleans has been founded between the cow and Rome's horses.
     
  8. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Monarchy and Alpha are techs that the AI will always trade even if it's a monopoly as they do not allow the building of any Wonders or Units.
     
  9. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    Played 6 turns. A couple of unfortunate things happened: Our spy was caught in Tsingtao and Toku built HG right after we invested hammers in aqueduct in Guangzhou :mad:. War went smooth but our economy is crappier than ever.

    T56: Move galley towards Nanjing, gather wounded HA’s and medic in Moscow, Make last minute change: Whip barracks in Manchou to have overflow to Mids next turn. Will shuffle build there accordingly.

    T57: Move Units toward Edirne. Spot 3 archers and a settler in Istanbul. Re-base to Nanjing to scout barb city. Build Mids in Manchou.

    T58: Mids still due in 3 turns. Two archers have left Istanbul with a settler, only one left.

    T59: Mids are built?? Earlier than expcted. Move units towards Edirne, Istanbul. Rebase bomber to Hamburg. Roosevelt building HG in New York. Due in 15. Janissary has gone in a bad direction near Xian that has little culture and no units. Move spy to Tsingtao. Switch Guangzhou to Aqueduct. We can easily beat Roosevelt to HG here.

    T60: Mehmed founds Ankara. Close borders and do DOW. Take Edirne and Ankara without losses. Ankara is auto-razed. Capture 3 workers. Janissary is only two tiles from Xian. Build second archer there. HG now down to 11 turns in New York. Whip Aqueduct in Guangzhou.

    T61: Re-base bomber to Edirne. Advance on Istanbul. Janissary is next to Xian and we will likely attack our two archers. Roosevelt has stopped building HG for some reason. Our spy is detected in Tsingtao (Surprising and unlucky).

    T62: Crap. Toku built HG. Bismarck has a stack running west. Probably to attack de Gaulle. Take Istanbul with no losses. Our Economy has worsened considerably by the expansion and we may consider whipping some courthouses and maybe even self research of Currency.

    >> SAVE <<

    My suggestion is to attack Caesar next. Trade for Monarchy and then attack.

     
  10. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    Guangzhou is building science as a place holder. We have a large overflow there that was meant for HG. My suggestion is to put them in Chichen Itza and gift CoL to Roosevelt. I don't think he has any other Wonders to build right now so we can likely get a lot of fail gold from this within a reasonable time.

    Other than that we must probably whip courthouses in all major cities. Good news is that further expansion will get cheaper soon because the maintenance is capped at 7 gpt. Colossus would help but we need copper to build it cheaply and for extra fail gold. Nanjing will soon be up to speed and potentially contributing to Colossus fail gold. Suggest to go for the copper on the southern island, I think it's in our interest to keep Roosevelt in the game and let him build wonders for fail gold and later capture. A second island city will also ensure that all trade routes are 2 gpt when we get to Currency.
     
  11. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    A bit of bad luck but much accomplished.

    Reluctant to build courthouses when we have no distance maintenance. We have gold in the treasury, more hoarded in Globe and will be taking more cities fairly soon. Next turn there will be no war weariness, and the Culture slider may not be needed. Reiterating: if we are going to build Glib and National Epic in Tsing, then a missionary for that city will be highly desirable in the not-to-distant future. If we are not going to build them in Tsing, then a library needs to be built soon in the alternative city.

    Should we wait a turn or two to see if Chichen is being built and to put some more hammers into Globe? Also, we could live dangerously and research Aesthetics in two turns and gift it as suggested.

    I have to go out of town tomorrow, but will check back in tomorrow night, and will be available for the weekend.
     
  12. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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  13. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    " Currency would solve all problems Then, suggest we go ahead and trade for Monarchy and gift to Germany in hopes he will research Currency next. but as long as we don't know when it will be available we probably need to reduce the deficit. Fail gold and capture gold is keeping us afloat but the problem is that we lack reliable sources of fail gold. Courthouses are a way to convert hammers to gold (they save ~3 gpt). The payback time is 35-40 turns, well before the end of the game. Follow that logic, but still reluctant to rush to build courthouses. They will cost us citizens (which could be working commerce tiles or be whipped into gold) and unhappiness in the short term. In the long term, I agree that we should be fine. In addition they provide 2 spy points per turn for tech stealing. Maybe that wins the argument, but aren't we doing pretty well regarding spy points? We're already building SA's; plus, not sure the AI is teching so fast we can't keep up. When Globe is finished in Guangzhou we can whip cheap stuff to get gold from excess hammers. Cheap units like missionaries and spies can be one popped yielding ~20 gold. Is that better than whipping fail gold in other cites? (Not arguing for it, just asking.) Building some grassland cottages may also be necessary. Suggest that worker turns spent chopping silk forests in preparation for plantations might be more helpful. Calendar is only five turn from completion in America. There are a number of such high commerce tiles (several silks, wine, 2 golds, and an incense) that should become available soon. I think we have to use all tools in the bag to get this deficit down. In particular because we still want to expand and fill out the empty land around the Ottoman cities. How much of a problem is it if some of those sites are built by the AI and we then capture them? Fortunately the maintenance will soon be capped at 7 per city. With Currency even a size one city will always give 6 gpt so expansion will no longer increase maintenance at that point.

    Should we wait a turn or two to see if Chichen is being built and to put some more hammers into Globe? Also, we could live dangerously and research Aesthetics in two turns and gift it as suggested. The Guangzhou overflow can't go into Globe as it would finish it. It has to go into something else and it's hard to see any alternative to Chitzen Itza. Understand -- just questioning whether we want to finish it immediately. I don't think we can burn our gold on Aesthetics before we have stabilized the economy." Okay, just thought we ought to think about it.

    There is a city site 2SE of Neapolis that looks worth settling.

    Regarding running artists in Mumbai: if we are not going to do so and it will be awhile before we attack NY, then probably ought to chop the grass forest, as it will eventually switch cultures.


    Does leif want to play now? If not, I can work on a plan tomorrow afternoon for Saturday play.
     
  14. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I guess the key is that with Globe there is no whip anger so you can whip as soon as the pop regrows.
     
  15. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    Our main problem is that we lack a good investment object for our hammers. We may still need a few additional units to complete the conquest of Caesar and de Gaulle but not many and there is no important infrastructure to build except courthouses who are decent but not great and a few selected wonders like Colossus and the Epics. Fail gold is not a reliable way to avoid strike. Our best investment is settlers but expansion will further increase the deficit in the near term. My proposed way out of this bind is to research Currency and settle another island city near the copper (facilitates Colossus build + fail gold). The island city will ensure that two trade routes are always at least 4 gpt. Thus Currency provides 2 x 18 = 36 gpt. On top of this comes gold from resource trades. Probably not a lot. And the techs we gift can be sold cheap instead. Most important is the ability to directly build gold because this gives us a reliable way to avoid strike.

    How can we get to currency fast? Stealing is an option but Bismarck may not switch to Currency after he is gifted Monarchy and at his current tech rate it will take him more than 10 turns to complete it. So I think we have to self research and this can be done in 3 turns by building science and increasing the science slider to 70%-90% (depending on how much science is built). We are about 100 gold short if we do this and there are a couple of options for covering this: 1) Build the Globe within the next two turns and cash in the fail gold. 2) Whip walls in a couple of cities combined with chops.

    The latter option requires some more detail. Walls are ridiculously cheap to build because Mao is protective and we have stone. Thus, if we 1-pop walls we get 30-40 gold and 16 hammers in overflow. In addition to this we get 30 gold for each forest chopped into the walls. In other words we can get 100 gold by whipping walls and chopping 2 forests into it or whip walls in two cites and chop a single forest.

    There may be some timing problems getting the workers chopping and settling the copper city and this could be eased by revolting to HR which adds a turn (or is it two?) of anarchy.

    The main upside to self research of Currency is that we can continue investing in settlers. The maintenance will soon be capped at 7 gpt but a new city is born with 5 gpt from city center and trade routes and if it has a two commerce tile to work it is actually cost neutral from the very start! And having the ability to build gold means that we are no longer pressured to build cottages or courthouses but can select what we think is best in the longer perspective.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  16. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Chieftain

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    Exactly. We still need to put hammers into each build before whipping but it is probably best to do the 1-pop whips in Guangzhou and leave the multi-pops (e.g. settlers) to the other cities. At least for a while. Guangzhou can also build wonders with the abundant overflows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  17. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Don't know what's happened to leif, so I will start making tentative plan for play tomorrow. First, want to continue discussions below:

    " Currency would solve all problems Then, suggest we go ahead and trade for Monarchy and gift to Germany in hopes he will research Currency next. Yes, then that's the plan.

    Courthouses are a way to convert hammers to gold (they save ~3 gpt). At least there is no building or unit that promises more. So, let's build science toward Currency.

    It's the same reason that people are buying stocks even in an expensive market: Interest rates are very low on bonds. Wow! That's a clever analogy! Do you have a RL alternative (hopefully less problematic than a Chitzen)? I've been looking for one for years.

    We can use the points to gain culture via espionage. With the current tech rates the Culture option seems faster than the Corporation option. Follow that.

    The problem with the fail gold is the 4 turn hard limit. Please explain '4 turn hard limit'.

    Then we can build Globe and get maybe 3-4 additional turns and perhaps capturing a city (Looks like we will be able to capture two Roman cities fairly close together.) will give one more but it looks like we are out of gold 8-9 turns from now and with great difficulty getting more unless the AI builds Chitzen. Concur -- after eliminating JC, commerce could get tight pretty fast.

    We can convert the chops to gold with careful MM Do you mean finishing chops same turn as, and after, whipping, or do you have something more complex in mind?

    How much of a problem is it if some of those sites are built by the AI and we then capture them? I'd rather not see Bismarck claiming these sites because we want to keep him as a trading (and stealing) partner. Follow that.

    Should we wait a turn or two to see if Chichen is being built and to put some more hammers into Globe? Also, we could live dangerously and research Aesthetics in two turns and gift it as suggested. The Guangzhou overflow can't go into Globe as it would finish it. It has to go into something else and it's hard to see any alternative to Chitzen Itza. Understand -- just questioning whether we want to finish it immediately. I'm not sure what your alternative suggestion is. Just keep building research was all I had in mind, while we continue to whip failed gold into Globe. (Propose whipping wkbt in HK this turn for failed gold next turn.)

    Regarding running artists in Mumbai: if we are not going to do so and it will be awhile before we attack NY, then probably ought to chop the grass forest, as it will eventually switch cultures. Winning the culture battle seems quite hopeless. New York is producing a lot more culture from wonders and cultural buildings. Let them have the rice. Okay.

    YES!

    Do we still want to gift CoL to America, so he can build Chitzen?
    When do we want to try to steal Construction from Germany again?
    Settle 1N1NW of silver?
    How to fight prate NE of Manchou? Thinking building an axe.
    What is sword in Yan for?

    BTW, I read the two links on espionage culture, but learned very little except the basic concept. That first thread was an inane discussion. Think NZ suggested we look at it just to let us know what he has to put up with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  18. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I'm here! Sort of...

    Between getting 6otM33 out, some on site stuff, watching the olympics with my wife, RL crap and staying up late doing all that, been tired and unfocused.
    My play is questionable when I'm awake, well rested and eager. When I'm half asleep, bleary eyed and stupid it could be beyond ugly! :eek:

    Apologies, Will try to catch up in the next day or two. :please:
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  19. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Okay, if we can arrive at resolutions to above issues, I will try to play tomorrow afternoon for a very few turns.

    Here is more of plan:

    Trade MC (or PHIL?) to JC for Monarchy and gift it to Bismarck

    Switch to Currency at 80%

    Revolt to HR when needed and above query answered.

    Whip HK workboat into failed Gold for Globe in two turns

    Two out of Yan, Manchou, and Mumbai divert workers to chop forest for wall to be built turn before it's whipped and one forest chopped.

    Delay the three Intelligence Agencies

    Whip sword in Yan this turn (if wall not to be built there, then, in two turns after whipping sword this turn and putting hammers into Globe next turn, can build Science there).

    Build science in: Mongolia (next turn); Xian; Beijing (this turn, then whip spy into Globe and send to Chong); Manchou (Science until wall, if built there); Shanghai

    Advance military units to stage in south Berlin to bombard in 3 turns; move GSpy toward Roman territory to help with eyes on target;

    Scout with bomber WSW and estimate if units are sufficient for some to be moved to Neapolis and also NW the following turn to reveal hidden territory

    Move settler and worker toward galley to found copper city.

    Look to build an axe, improve wine, and train a missionary when possible
     
  20. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I am about to catch up on the last 6 pages or so.... I will hopefully be able to say something constructive tomorrow.

    We certainly dont look like we are going slow :)
     

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