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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 26 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished.

    The Maintenance Thread is now open for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. You will find the Game Details in the Pre-Game Annoouncement Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, they will be posted in that thread.

    Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

    Good luck with the game. Enjoy!
     
  2. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23,252
    Team Rules

    1. Don’t cheat. Mis-click? Suck it up and be honest. System crash? Pm AlanH and follow his instructions.
    2. Have fun!
    3. Win Gold.

    Batting Order


    LowtherCastle — On deck
    Kaitzilla — In the hole
    Mitchum
    WastinTime
    MirrorGuard <=== At bat

    (babybluepants)
    (FiveRings)
    (Oblivionyx)
    ——————————————
    Helpful In-game Links
    (Ask’n I’ll add your faves too... ;))


    Strategy
    Kill’em all endgame strategy
    Liberalism-Medicine-Sushi
    Oracle + TGL = Conquest only
    Late-game tech path
    Colossus could function through Sushi
    National Park is 8th+9th city
    Pillage economy
    Stone Oracle?, elaboration
    Oracle instead of apostolic palace?
    Health prognosis
    No optics before we bulb biology!
    Privateers for 20 XP
    WB economy, more, more,
    T75 Oracle,
    Tech path, failgold after Oracle

    Stone-enhanced wonders
    Marble about T120
    Rush cost for wonders
    T76 CoL
    GSpy worth 7000+ beakers
    Late techs to steal from AIs
    Test dates for AIs getting SH, GW, and Oracle
    T77 CoL
    Free Confu Missionary ideas, more,





    Kait’s logic for settling Canal T5
    SB can’t plot war at Pleased
    Unit cost
    Getting SB to Pleased, more, more, more,
    Where is SB’s second scout?, 2nd scout appears!
    Monopoly Techs SB will trade
    Liberate city message after settling
    Relative values of food, hammers, coins
    WT’s logo explained
    Max AI hammer production doubles T33
    What WT heads to build
    Pillage resource solution, another more, better, or pillage camp
    No WHEOOHRN fist from SB!!!
    SB needs 2 attack units to plot war



    Sitting Bull
    T32, T38, T55,




    Scenario Mechanics
    AP won’t assign city to us
    Each OCC can build 5 Nat Wonders
    Where holy cities spawn
    Dun maxOF gambit, improved, explained
    Avoid growth granary trick






    Turnsets
    LC Turnset 1: T0 Report 1, T0 Rep 2, PPP, T0-1 Rep 3, T0-4 Rep 4, T5 Rep 5, T5-13 Rep 6. We settled Science, then Cow T0. Buddhism T8, Hinduism T10. Slow! Complete AH snd have horses in Science!

    Mitch Turnset 2: PPP, PPPv2, PPPv3, T13-22 Rep 1, pics. Settled Canal T13. Finished Mysticism.

    Kait Turnset 3: PPP, T22-25 Rep 1, T25-32 Rep 2, Sailing.

    WT Turnset 4: PPP, T32-45 Report. Bronze Working.

    LC Turnset 5: PPP, PPPv2, T45-54 Report. The Wheel, Pottery. Settled Whales.

    Kait Turnset 6: PPP, PPPv2, Gold on NE Isle!, T55-56 Rep1, T57 Rep2, T58-65 Rep3. Masonry, Meditation, Priesthood, but no Stonehenge!!!

    Mirror Turnet 7:
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  3. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23,252
    Klarius’ korner

    Anyone have a preferred SG to steal this from?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  4. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA


    Notes:

    1. Don't forget to revolt to our state religion before the end of the game.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
    Kaitzilla likes this.
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Things to remember:

    T165:
    - Bribe Peter into Free Market on T165
    - Bribe Biz to DoW Charly

    T179:
    - Bribe Bismarck into a civic so he can't take Merc. (he took Theocracy 154). In Merc, he can't spread sushi. This is assuming we've given him banking to try and get repParts or communism or something.


    Diplo Data

    Sitting Bull
    Philosophical & Protective
    Dog Solder (Axe with 4:strength:, 100% vs. melee (instead of 50%) and no copper)
    Totem Pole (+3 XP to archery units)

    Different Religion Penalty - Up to -1 Relations (or -2 if Sitting Bull owns the Holy City)
    Shared Religion Bonus - Up to +3 Relations (or +4 if Sitting Bull owns the Holy City)
    Shared War Bonus - Up to +4 Relations (or +5 while human and Sitting Bull share a war)
    Shared Civic Bonus - Up to +3 Relations
    Tech trades required to receive +1 "shared your technological discoveries with us" - 20

    WFYABTA - 8 techs on Emperor. Trades techs at 80%.

    T4 - Met
    T32 - Gift Sheep
    T33 - Gift Crabs
    T38 - Gift Clam
    T65 - Cancel Crab
    T67 - OB
    T76 - Cancel Sheep; Sheep for Rice
    T76 - Gift Stone + Deer
    T77 - Pillage/cancel Stone + Deer
    T100 - Sell fur for 1 gpt
    T103 - Writing for 15g
    T105 - Meditation for 20g + OR
    T108 - Math for 10g + map

    Peter
    Expansive and Philosophical
    Cossack (Cavalry with +50% vs. Mounted units)
    Research Institute (Laboratory with +2 Free Scientists)

    Different Religion Penalty - Up to -2 Relations (or -3 if Peter owns the Holy City)
    Shared Religion Bonus - Up to +5 Relations (or +6 if Peter owns the Holy City)
    Shared War Bonus - Up to +4 Relations (or +5 while human and Peter share a war)
    Shared Civic Bonus - Up to +3 Relations
    Tech trades required to receive +1 "shared your technological discoveries with us" - 5

    WFYABTA - 22 techs on Emperor. Trades techs at 10%.

    T78 - Met
    T78 - OB
    T85 - Rice for Crab
    T101 - CoL + 10g for Monarchy
    T102 - CS for Alphabet + gold + map
    T102 - Meditation + 45g for Bureaucracy + Caste
    T108 - Monotheism for 50g + map
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  6. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Copied from our private chat. You will lose some context because you can't see which post is being quoted but it's better than nothing.

    Spoiler :

    WT:
    Spoiler :


    On the surface, it appears like a 100% peaceful game, but I suspect that a couple of the best city sites are occupied, so conquer and replace the city might be a strategy. (It's OCC and we have 7 settlers)

    Mitch:

    It's been a while since I've played an OCC game. Of course you can't build settlers but are there any other "hidden" rules? For example, is it even possible to win Culture in an OCC game? Are there other aspects of the game that are different for OCC?

    WT:


    pre-game disc covers most of it. Oxford w/ 1 university, same for Globe, cathedrals, etc.
    Cities autoraze if culture flipped for captured... which makes Espionage win impossible, Domination impossible. Culture works because we have the 3 cities.
    Seems like a religious win or Diplo this time.

    LC:


    Religious wins can be blink-of-the-eye fast. Requires what?

    Finding all ais
    Quick AP
    Strategic religion spread
    ?

    WT:


    We'll have plenty of time. We have a lot of tech to do. Corporations, etc. are all required.

    I feel like we need to work with the AI as research partners. Since we can't conquer a city, all we get is raze-gold for our effort. If we don't need nearby city sites, I'm thinking no army. Which makes me think (dream about?) STRIKE economy in late game, but probably not.
    We definitely need to find food and do a GP plan for bulbing.

    Mitch:


    OK, so we do have to go super far into the tech tree so really, all options are on the table for VC other than Space and Domination, right? The further into the game you go, the more challenging it can be for Diplo and Religious (i.e. more things can go wrong the longer you let them progress). If we do plan to go this route, we'll have to pick the UN/AP city early so we don't build another wonder in it.

    We should agree on the proposed capital location and then do the T0 settler moves for the other 6 to see if we find something that might change our mind about where to settle our capital. My gut says that our first city should be high in commerce and it should be our Scientist city since we have to tech so much. The SIP location on the PH with 2 gems, wine, sheep and rice looks like a decent capital. The only drawback is that it's not coastal but who cares since we can settle the others in coastal locations if required. There is also a nice coastal PH SIP city with crab, deer and 3 furs.

    We also have to figure out how many cities to settle early (1 to 3 I guess) and how many settlers we should use to scout the map. No barbs so we should be safe. How likely is an AI to DOW and snag one of our wandering settlers early in the game?

    We should also pick our desired Great Wonder for each city which will affect our tech path if we want to go for one of the early ones.

    Do we want the Oracle? Do we want the Mids? I think the Great Library is a good choice for the Scientist city.

    We need a Lab which has us researching all the way to Superconductors.

    For Spy, the only Great Wonders that generate GPPs are The Great Wall (Masonry), The Kremlin (Communism) and The Pentagon (Assembly Line). The GW won't be too useful with no barbs so spending early hammers on that without stone sounds bad. I guess that leaves The Kremlin since we don't need to tech AL (which requires Steam Power; not on the Superconductor beeline).

    For Engineer, the Great wonders are Cristo Redentor (Radio), The Hagia Sophia (Theology), The Hanging Gardens (Math), The Pyramids (Masonry), The Three Gorges Dam (Plastics). Using 500 early hammers on the Mids without stone is an expensive proposition but may be the best option? Not sure about this though. We don't have to build settlers or a big army early so many the Mids are a good use of early hammers???

    The Heroic Epic requires a lvl 4 unit so we will have to do a bit of fighting to ensure we get this.

    We have a lot more choices for Prophet, Artist, Merchant and Scientist but we should probably pick an ideal wonder for each with a backup plan.

    As WT said, we should lay out our intended tech path and GP bulbing plan to speed that along.

    WT:

    One thing you may have missed is that we are not allowed to build more than those 6 wonders .
    So, if for example we build Oracle, we CANNOT build AP (prophet wonder) which may or may not throw a wrench in our religious victory.
    U.N. is a merchant wonder, but if we build Eiffel tower (Radio, also merchant) then we don't have to research MassMedia (broadcast tower unlocked) Someone should confirm Eiffel gives towers without MassMedia. Wouldn't skipping MM shorten the critical path?

    Since we need Intel Agency anyway, we probably go State Prop/Kremlin. that locks in the spy wonder. That means screw cottages (maybe in the capital). Use farms for GPs, then workshop.
    Early Mids is probably good for our farm plan.

    I mapped our minimum tech route and the only corporation we have is Cereal (Refrigeration, Merchant needed) Others would require additional tech. So we can use the free GM at Econ. Nice.

    Heroic Epic with no fighting. It's just 10xp right?
    rax + stable + West Point is 9xp
    Then either Vassalage? or Theocracy? Hmm. not ideal to switch civics.
    Did I forget something? Can't get a GG.
    Oh right!

    Boudica is charismatic!
    So now I don't think we even need the stable. Just 7xp.

    Mitch:


    Nice work on the Heroic Epic dilemma. However, we shouldn't completely rule out fighting, should we? In general if one AI is causing one of our tech trading partners to stagnate in development due to lack of land, we might want a joint war (gives +diplo points for shared war) to liberate that land for our chosen tech partner. That's a decision we can make later in the game but we shouldn't completely rule out wars.

    I did notice that we can only build one WW in each city. That is why I was suggesting we pick an intended WW for each of the 6 cites so that we can plan accordingly.

    Should we agree on an tentative settling order? For example, I doubt that we can afford to settle all 6 so I think if we're going Mids, we'd settle Science (capital?) and Engineer early. Maybe we don't want the Oracle if we want to keep the Religious VC on the table so we could settle that one later. I guess plans will change as the game develops but we can likely put a tentative WW plan in place now and adjust accordingly.

    If we're going State Property and the Kremlin, are we on a Communism beeline (more or less) at the start of the game?

    Which Artist, Merchant and Prophet wonders should we target that are on the Superconductors tech path?

    WT:


    artist: maybe MoM or Parth
    Merch: Eiffel
    Prophet : AP -- I think we we must build it, right? Even if the AI builds it in our religion, we would likely not be the other candidate. (unless we beat down everyone which I don't wanna do) I'd really like to pick a different VC.

    The prophet city must be coastal (Moai), so if we don't go AP and want Oracle, then we will likely put the prophet city SIP-west. And probably the capital (other SIP) = Great Library.

    Mitch:


    Hmmm... You're thinking that we must build the AP more as a defensive strategy to avoid losing a Religious VC to the AI? That sucks for a few reasons. First, the AP is not typically on the fastest tech path since we rely our our tech partners to research the religious part of the tech tree. Second, to get the AP typically takes some focus because the AI doesn't trade those techs early so we'll have to self-research a lot of un-useful techs. Is there any way we can totally bypass the AP all of those techs until we can get them in trade? That means that we're committing to some other VC (likely Diplo, yes?)

    What made you pick Eiffel? Just because it's late game and on our tech path? The GLH is always nice but I'm not sure it will pay off with only 7 cities with some of them not even coastal.

    Good point on Prophet being coastal.

    Do you like the two PH SIP spots as our first two cities as well (pending what we find on T0 exploration)? Would settling both cities on T0 cripple us too much? I recall another xOTM where we started with settlers and I settled 2 or 3 on T0 and never pulled myself out of the hole. It was my first Deity game so that could have had something to do with it too.

    If I have time tomorrow, I'll set up a test game (if I can remember how to do it) so we can play around with it to see the impacts of settling our cities at different stages of the game.

    LC:

    What’s our research engine?

    WT:

    You musta missed my Eiffel thoughts ^^

    Test game is probably necessary to figure out the settling. I'd really like to settle at least 2 cities. We've got the commerce tiles to dig out of a hole, but that test game will show if we need an early tech. Like if we didn't have mining or our food techs .

    Mitch:

    OK, I have a test save. I hadn't noticed before but the gems are junglified.

    I think it's accurate but feel free to point out any changes.

    WT:

    Ugh. Jungled gems. That changes everything. There is no reason to settle a city early with only 2 tiles: Sheep/DryRice. And, if that city is not our capital then it has zero tiles. We could really use a creative leader. The gems are not even on grass, so if worked those tiles, we can't grow.
    I forgot what this map looks like. Ice Age is brutal. Not very farm-able.

    Mitch:

    Right. The tech pace is going to be very slow. And aren't the AI nerfed even more than normal since they can't adapt to an ice age map that well?

    LC:


    What sort of map is Ice Age? Does it have world wrap? Islands/ continents?

    GLH could be useful if we don’t go to war. Don’t need our own offshore three cities. Just lots of AI trade routes. Auto 2 coin anyway.

    Maybe we can settle the (coastal?) plains hill to get both gems tiles.

    I’m thinking coastal tiles might be our best source Of commerce, at least early on. GLH <?> Colossus for 7 cities?

    Mitch:

    Here is a look at buildings and required techs for each.



    Superconductors plus Industrialism provide the full tech path. Then we just have to research Radio only (for Eiffel) or Radio plus MM (for Broadcast Towers). Having to research MM may not be a huge issue if we determine that Diplo will be better than Religious.

    Benefits of Diplo:

    MM isn't a super expensive tech
    Allows us to skip self-researching a bunch of useless religious techs that we can get otherwise via trade.
    Allows us to build a more useful Great Wonder in Merchant (GLH?)

    WT:


    We are not allowed to build 2 merchant wonders.
    I like how you're thinking with coastal tiles. But I'm not so interested in them for 2c early commerce, the value I'm seeing is 2f. Some of our cities will have no way to grow...unless we farm a lot of plains.
    Ice Age can be configured lots of ways. Plus it's 'edited'


    Mitch:


    GLH and Colossus both provide GM points so we'd have to pick one or the other. WT was leaning toward Eiffel for the GM wonder though. I'm not sure which is better but it would be nice to build a wonder that would benefit our game early like GLH or Colossus.

    WT:


    Yes, the 2f is the key point on the coastal tiles.

    The GW limit us why I asked GLH or Colossus? For 7 cities. But maybe Eiffel is even greater. Will hammer production afford Eiffel?!

    Hammer economy with build research?

    LC:


    I’m not sure a specialist evonomy with Mids works here. Requires lots of food.

    WT:


    You're probably right about just doing MM. We don't want to have to build the AP early and tech Theo, etc. And it also prevents us from doing Oracle and forces us to do Eiffel.
    The problem with early wonders like GLH and Oracle is, like LC said, dirty gene pool.
    With the food on this map, I wonder how hard it's going to be to get GPs. Maybe the mapmaker is trying to get us to do something other than slavery and GS bulbing.

    WT:

    a.k.a. STRIKE economy

    LC:


    Elaborate please.

    Mitch:


    True. The value of the Mids is reduced without food. Plus, it takes a ton of effort, especially with no stone, to build the 'Mids and it's easy to lose that race. Maybe we should target the HG for Engineer? The other options aren't that great: Cristo Redentor (Radio), The Hagia Sophia (Theology), The Three Gorges Dam (Plastics).

    WT:


    I guess State Prop/workshops doesn't play well without grass, so right now, we don't see that. Scratch that idea.
    I looked a couple test maps and they seem to have about 3 corn, 3 wheat and 1-2 rice on the entire map!

    Realistically, STRIKE probably won't work out either because you need a lot of cities with a lot of expenses. I just like to dream about it. But yeah, we can try to make wonder gold and build research. Just not seeing a lot of workshoppable tiles for that.

    LC:


    Synergies

    SpecE: Glib+Ox, Parth, Mids (Rep), Merc
    SpyE: no war, TRs, requires holy city
    HammerE: build research, build wonders

    WT:


    That coastal city has +7 food. We can get 6 specialist in there (at -3 food) (in Merc)

    LC:


    How much of our late tech path do AIs prioritize?

    Will Golden ages be useful? At whst point?

    WT:


    I imagine a GAge will be used for the GP plan. Not sure we can afford 2 and whether we need MoM or just forget GAges. It's going to be a frustratingly slow game. Look how long it's taken just to start! 2 years.

    Mitch:

    With only 7 cities and crap food, we won't be generating many organic hammers.
    Spy Economy requires the AI to tech quickly. Will they on this map? I'm not sure.
    Like WT said, I think this is just going to be a painfully slow game.

    Do you see this as our Science city then? Other than this one site, I don't see any other cities that I'd want to settle on T0, does anyone else?

    WT:


    I was thinking sheep + rice was only +3 food, but it's +5 and with irrigation +6. That's a good city on ice age. We can even get up to 8 specialists there (at -4 fpt) (in Merc) (with Great Lib)

    We must make that our capital (I wanted a more central city anyway) and we're gonna need Myst + monument ASAP for the coastal city. I'd hate to move that settler 1S and lose 2 fur and lose the PH and fresh water just because we can't pop borders. (would love Creative leader)


    lol. I settled and we start at -1 gpt due to unit supply so we'll have to leave some settlers home.
    Oh, but if we settle 2 cities, there's no supply cost (but -3 for 2 cities. ouch) and they don't get trade routes with each other. Our cities are not connected until culture touches (monument again) or we road. Monument is faster.

    Mitch:


    OK, I tried a test.

    T0: Science on PH with rice and Sheep, build worker. City #2 on PH with Furs and Cow; build worker. -3 GPT. Set slider to 0%.
    T4: Research AH at 100%, 10 turns, 32 gold
    T12: City 2 finishes worker, AH still 2 turns away so worker is idle for 2 turns.
    T13: Science finishes worker, worker walks to sheep.
    T14: AH done; we see horses. Both workers pasture.

    Since the worker from City 2 sits idle for 2 turns, I think we should settle City #2 on turn 2 so it arrives JIT. That might even pull in AH by a turn but I don't think so.

    Interestingly, after finishing the worker, there is nothing useful to build. We can build a WB but for exploring but it won't be able to net the crabs for many turns. We can build warrior MPs, Scouts, more workers or barracks, none of which are that exciting.

    AH is a key worker tech for our cities so I think it HAS to be first, right?

    Our cities are not connected via TR even though they are both connected to the river. So we need Sailing or TW to connect them. The workers will run out of things to improve quickly so I guess we'd just build the roads and research Mysticism next for the monument?

    Settling a third city puts us at -6 GPT with little benefit to tech pace so until we can connect City #3 to our other 2, I'm not sure how quickly we should settle it unless we find a perfect spot for it.

    EDIT: xpost with WT's last post.

    Test #2:

    T0: Science on PH with rice and Sheep, build worker.100% research on AH
    T2: City #2 on PH with Furs and Cow; build worker. Set slider to 0%.
    T5: Research AH at 100%, 8 turns, 24 gold
    T13: AH done; we see horses. Science finishes worker, worker walks to sheep.
    T14: City 2 finishes worker. Both workers pasture.

    So we start the pastures on the same turn as test #1 but we learn AH 1 turn sooner which lets us put one extra turn of commerce into gold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
    Noble Zarkon likes this.
  7. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Spoiler :

    LC:
    Spoiler :


    GemsPH can support pop18 with farms, cowsPH pop13. That’s for a gp countdown during GAge. Gems also includes more h/c tiles for the GAge.

    If GemsPH is our capital them we +-beeline iw, right?

    Starting with Agr+Htg+Fish, we could prioritize Myst, building monument after cowboy, who first camps fur for more coins for early tech boost. Miner farms instead of sheep pasture. Is that insane? Beeline myst-min-bw to whip wb. Where to squeeze in ah? We also want to whip granaries asap, right?

    Except ah gives +2c with sheep. But sheep pre-ah is a farmed coin. (Comparing relative tech boost of 1h4c fur camp). No, it seems ah first is probably better. (Channeling my inner Dhoom stream of consciousness.)


    Are we certain we want to Farm our Capitol rather than cottage it.?

    GPs

    1. How many GSes?
    2. Do we delay our polluting GWs until we spam GSes?
    3. Or spam polluted GSes, assuming a 2nd GAge from the mutant GPs? That would speak to building either Parth or MoM.

    Note: Slow tech game means AIs 1) could catch up and be ripe for tech trading and/or stealing and 2) could run away in the Tech race later on.

    40% discount ah first seems a no-brainer. Myst requires monument+wb to give us the crabs. Cow pasture speeds both builds up significantly.

    WT:

    I'm not sure we will be slow at tech compared to the AI. After all, we do have 6 free extra settlers. I assume the AI starts with 1.
    Test 2 looks great. An idle worker can always farm a plains/river.
    And yes, I think we have no choice on farm vs cottage. We're already losing 2 food when we work the 2 gems. How many cottages could we work? and if we do, we stagnate.

    GSs. I suppose we go for 10 GP total since #11 costs extra. Sometimes the Nat Epic and/or GreatLib city can get #11 or #12
    If we accidentally get an Artist, we can always bulb Radio, or use it for GAge, but we should keep the pollution to a minimum if possible. Depends on how bad we think we want Oracle or mids.


    LC:


    On teching AH, note that 13base-bpt yields +5bpt, right?

    10 +40% = 14
    11 ... 15
    12 ... 16
    13 ... 18!

    So when the tech slider’s at 100% we have the option of working the cows for 3 wkr hammers or the river plain for 2 wkr-h + 2b. Not sure if that gets AH sooner or what.


    WT:


    don't forget. for some strange reason it's (base + 1) * 40% .... but I think you know that and you're counting that already.



    LC:


    Yup. but reminders are good... In other words, when I say base beakers, I mean including the free beaker.

    No save open but my calcs:

    1free b
    Gems 8+1+1=10
    Cows 1 or 2 or 3 (2f1h or 1f1h1c or 1f2c)

    So my gray cells are saying that Cows each turn is worth:
    Base: 3wkr-h + 1c - 3g
    Tile:
    2 w-h
    1 w-h + 1c (+ 1b @100%)
    0 w-h + 2c

    which screams to me that settling on T0 nets at worst 3w-h - 1g per turn, working 1f2c. (Or is it +1c added in there too?)

    Mitch:

    I "think" what you're saying is that we should settle the coastal city (City #2) on T0 and consider working a commerce tile which will slow down the worker but speed up AH. Correct?


    WT:


    Ya, settling Cows t0 we come out even on research if we work the coast a bit, so no reason to wait. Along those same thoughts...
    It's great to get 2 snowballs started instead of the usual 1 city. But should we do 3 ASAP?
    Answer: yes, as soon as we find a good coastal spot (not too far away).
    Because maint goes from -3 to (only) -6 so if we need to keep research up, we just work the coastal tile in city #3 and come out even.

    WT:

    it won't slow down the worker, it will speed it up! You get a couple turns on the coast with 1 hammer going to the worker, but then switch to a tile...maybe like in your Test 2 on turn 2.

    Mitch:

    In my test #2, delaying city #2 by 2 turns did a few things:

    1. Allowed us to run 100% slider to T0 and T1
    2. Made it such that we only need to run 0% slider for 3 turns instead of 4 turns to save up enough gold to finish AH.
    3. Pulled in AH by 1 turn
    4. Had us working the absolute best tile to get the worker out ASAP in both cities.

    I'd have to play around to see if there are any variants that get AH on T12 like my test #2 by working commerce-heavy tiles in City #2 for a turn or three (without sacrificing when the worker arrives). If we could get AH on T13 and the worker from City #2 on T13, that would get us the pasture a turn sooner (my worker came on T14).

    The thing is, with city #2 on T0, we need 4 turns of 0% slider to have enough gold to finish researching AH at 100%. In my test #2 it was only 3 turns of 0% slider. So we might have to work the coastal tile more than just 1 or 2 turns to make it work. Not sure if it would be best to work the coast when the slider is at 0% or 100% though. I don't have time to test right now.


    WT:


    It doesn't make sense that you could come out behind with city 2 on T0. It's income is 3 and expenses are -3. Is it due to rounding? I would think the extra hammer for the worker makes up for any rounding. Anyway, details. We can work that out if the game ever starts.


    Mitch:


    I think the issue is that the extra -3 when running 100% slider adds up such that you have to run the slider at 0% for an extra turn to save up enough gold to finish the tech at 100% slider. I agree that we can play with the details. It does seem like settling on T0 is the best thing to do if we can avoid delaying AH by a turn which should be doable depending on how many turns we work a tile with more commerce.

    Test#3

    T0: Science on PH with rice and Sheep, build worker. City #2 on PH with Furs and Cow; work plains river tile; build worker. 0% slider
    T3: 100% slider; AH in 9 turns, -3 gpt, 27 gold
    T8: Switch citizen in city #2 from plains river to cow. Speeds up worker but doesn't slow down AH.
    T12: AH done.
    T13: Science finishes worker; partial farm on Science-1N
    T14: City #2 finishes worker. Both workers pasture.

    This gets the workers out the same turns as test #2 but pulls in AH by 1 turn.


    WT:


    it'll be nice to see horses before settling city #3


    LC:


    By my (brown) calcs:

    Mitch’s test 3 except T10 switch to cows maxes 18bpt, T12 AH, T14 wkr.

    Test 4 (theory): test 3 but only 2t @ 18bpt, then 7t on cows, 1t @ 70%, yields T13 AH and cowboy.

    Tradeoff: cows 1t sooner versus X g/c.

    Maybe Enough city calx until we move our settlers and see where we really settle.


    WT:


    I see us getting a certain minimum tech and then going 0% research (to let the AI catch up ) to settle all 7 cities. That's probably: AH, Myst, wheel, pottery, mining, BW, IW, (writing?) (math?) and masonry if we need a quarry. (edit: sailing in there at some point. Finish on currency?)
    Did I miss anything?

    Mitch:

    Alphabet which will help us pump techs to the AI and to pick up any techs we skipped in the above. To be honest, we don't have a lot to build so getting to Alphabet so we can build Research would be nice.

    Are we going for the 'Mids? If so, we'd need Masonry early. As mentioned, without much to build (i.e. no army, no settlers, very few workers) the 'Mids might make sense. Or some other early Great Wonder in which case we'd need to research that tech as well.

    EDIT: Scratch the 'Mids. We already said "No!" on that since Representation won't be such a big deal in this game. Maybe Math and the HG would be a good GE wonder.

    Looking at the tech tree, Sailing for LH (and GLH) might be useful since a lot of commerce could come from coastal tiles. It also connects our cities (EDIT: via rivers) and allows coastal trading which could bring in some gpt from the AI.


    WT:


    Oh yea, sailing was on my mind at one point.
    True, we need something to build besides the usual army and settlers (granaries, libraries, lighthouses and (sigh) monuments should keep us busy.
    Can we wait for Alpha from the AI? Could be a long wait, but i'd be nice to skip it...maybe currency?

    I like Representation for the +happy and we can use those beakers too.
    Certainly if we find stone in a good spot, right?

    LC:

    By the time we’ve finished our early teching hopefully will have met all the AIs we’re going to meet. Then will know who our trading partners are and how fast they’re teching and perhaps one will have alphabet. Will need to be able to trade for alphabet.

    Considering the number of GPs were talking about, the mids seem rather valuable. Exploration to find resources such as stone or marble and to find ais and create trade routes will be valuable. An early exploring work boat or two makes a lot of sense.

    With our food scarcity having enough health resources might limit our population if we want to expand beyond that say pop 10 or so.


    WT:


    I'm predicting an ocean crossing to meet all the AI. This feels like a diplo game and mapmakers love to make that harder when you can't massage your relationships with the AI until caravels.
    I feel like we may meet the AI in our hemisphere pretty easily (without wb scouting)
    But, maybe water explorers will get rewarded with an early route to the other AI. I suppose we will have to hunt for them if our settlers don't manage to find everyone.
    I wanna play!

    Mitch:

    On Emperor, Alphabet will come very late if we wait for the AI to research it. I have a feeling that Ice Age will really hamper the AI. I guess we'll find out once we start meeting our neighbors.

    I want to play too. This looks like a fun scenario. I think most of the focus this game will high-level strategy. With not much military and only 7 cities, the actual playing likely won't take much time at all. I guess that's normal though but more so with this game. I guess there will be less discussion about worker MM, city builds, citizen MM, military movement, etc.



    LC:


    Early wbs + sail + wtg + 7 cities = +7 or more coins. Cows will have lots of hammers. We need to time the water route with wtg.

    Knowledge is power. Maybe two wbs can circumnavigate. Plus, no barbs.

    I want to know if each city can build globe... (btw, I can’t test until I get a new internet package for my phone on the 19th, unless I drive to a hotspot...). That’s why I was thinking about the healthies. With globe, who needs a garrison...? We could trade all our happies...

    Teching iw is a pita. Rather alpha and trade. We’ll see if ice age allows that. We can’t wait for the gems.

    Wonder if the mapmaker is trying to foil all known strategies or if he has a unique one in mind that would work better than all known..

    6h OF into monument, done about t27, borders pop t37. By then Gems is almost p5. Work fur camp at p2. I don’t see any need for any of (sail)-tw-pott-wtg before mng-bw-iw.

    Also, first wb easily scouting, second done ages before border pop. Third wb could be for crabs.

    But the alternative of tw-pott-wtg-alpha might yield sail+mng+bw(+iw) + 2 granaries (?) and partial libs(?). Have to be tested on how soon alpha arrives.

    Mitch:

    I put all National Wonders in City #1 and none of them were available to build in City #2 using my test game. So I don't think this is a possible exploit.

    By whether or not ice age allows this, are you wondering if the AI would get IW fast enough that it would available for trade? I too am very curious how much ice age will nerf the AI but I assume that it's a lot more than it affects us; we can adapt but I bet the AI does pretty much the same thing regardless of the map.

    What is the build order in crabs? Worker - wb - wb - monument? I'm not sure if we have time for 1 wb or 2 before Mysticism is done.

    Note that I think we'll start paying unit maintenance with the wbs, wandering settlers and workers but I haven't tested this.

    Also note that if we found city #3 before we're done with AH, all of our tests and calculations are off.


    WT:


    Not sure what you meant here. AI loves to get IW, so we could go alpha & trade like I think you're suggesting, but then you say we can't wait for the gems. Did u mean we can wait? cus that's what I'm thinking too.
    I'm 99.9% sure we can't build globe in more than 1 city. Once it exists somewhere, it won't be buildable, and we get failgold anywhere we started building it.
    It's not like you can normally build one for every 6 theaters. If you have 100 theaters, you still get just one Globe. Good thinking outside the box tho

    Re: tw-pott-wtg-alpha might yield sail+mng+bw(+iw)

    I like this. I used to play like this all the time. I recall a time when I never researched BW myself. But I always needed mining back then. So far, this game doesn't need mining until IW (unless we find gold).
    So, I could see us doing an alpha rush. Keeping in mind that sailing is probably harder to get (lower AI priority) than IW. Might depend on how hostile our trading partners are (Toku).
    It's a shame we can't get those borders without myst. I'd normally wait to get that in trade. But we need that city working 3 fur at size 6 ASAP.


    Mitch:


    I can run an extended test to see how quickly the AI get different techs on a typical ice age map. I don't want to use the test game because I had to take away a ton of land from two of the AIs to make "our" area and to prevent them from ever finding us and messing with our MM. Is the best way to do this to take away all of our techs except Alphabet (so they don't get a bonus for knowing us with a bunch of extra techs), force a meeting with all AIs by putting a unit near them and then deleting it on T0, and then watch their tech progress? I thought about using a great spy on each of the AIs but then they might up their espionage sliders which would affect their research. By that token, maybe I shouldn't meet the AIs until T50 or so??? I want the test to be realistic so any ideas would be helpful so I don't taint the results.

    If we do beeline Alphabet (more or less) we need to be 100% sure that a) we can reach at least 3?? AI early on and b) those AI are likely to trade techs with us. So early exploration will be critical so that we can make a go/no-go decision on the Alpha beeline before we start down that path.

    WT:

    we don't know what's realistic for our scenario, so the best you can do is play a normal ice age. Beeline Alpha and see when they start getting techs.
    I'd suggest continents (not islands)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  8. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Spoiler :
    LC:
    Spoiler :


    es, slow ice age ai tech rate is my concern. Good point on the unit maintenance. Yikes. Wb1-monument-wb2 works. Depending on myst, possible 6h of into monument to save a turn.

    Actually I was thinking we DO need gems asap. But not if it costs us 100 b instead if gaining 100 b.

    Alpha beeline synergy — wow!

    1. Tw for 6th in Cows, maybe earlier TR between Gems-Cows (wkrs actually do have work to do without building roads so...)
    2. Pott for granary builds instead of paying a Mitch Tax, maybe faster growth in Cows
    3. Wtg for OBs exploring wb!, TRs w/sail, library builds
    4. (Optional) Sail for TRs
    5. No bw = No early chopping = save forests for health?


    WT:


    It will be 7 in Cows (Charismatic +1, monument! +1) I forgot about that monument benefit. Makes them far more tolerable.


    LC:


    Tradeoff questions
    1. Ah-tw-pott-Wtg+lib to pop Cow borders? Lib is ~11t at p3 or 13t working fur. Skip myst. Delays cows granary. Maybe delays sailing. May delay bronze tiles.

    We get ah, pot and wtg at 40%!

    2. Iw or alpha beeline? How much bronze and horse do undoctored ice age maps have? How much coinage is lost delaying gems?


    WT:


    An early wb will likely run into AI culture from a coastal captial and be stopped dead til writing. In the other direction, it will likely hit ice. But all that goes out the window if it's more of a snaky island map--which it can only be if the mapmaker edited our area to be more solid.

    Mitch:

    T6: Met Gandhi
    T7: Met Hannibal
    T12: AH -> Mysticism
    T19: Myst -> Wheel
    T29: Wheel -> Pottery
    T37: Pottery -> Writing
    T49: Writing -> Alphabet
    T74: Alphabet

    On the trade table are Sailing, Mining, Archery and Masonry.
    Hannibal only lacks Alphabet and Mysticism. He must have researched Writing.
    Gandhi lacks Writing and Alphabet.

    Note: Early Mysticism lets us put hammers into SH for fail gold if we have nothing better to build.

    I world build myself Mining and BW and both Gandhi and Hannibal have IW and are willing to trade it.


    LC:


    Did you do any MM? Improving the sheep and farms in gems and the cows, farm and furs in cows? T74’s late, isn’t it?


    WT:


    Maybe Mansa is in the game (and reachable early)
    Then we more easily get free Masonry.

    Myst vs library. (good thinking) I would say library since 3 fur wants a library anyway, but we will have to see how desperately city #3 or 4? needs a monument.
    Myst just delays granaries, delays OB/writing, alpha, etc.

    At least we have those forested plains. We could also use the farmed plainsriver (if forest doesn't grow) That might get us to size 4.
    And is the Deer 3f1h really that much better than 1f2h (or 2f1h1c)? Especially before granary and before whipping. No point in growing too big. Crab would be nice as it comes with 2c, but we can live without it until the library + 5 turns.


    LC:


    Good point on SH. What the hell is Gem’s going to build after worker?


    WT:


    I don't like the sound of t74 either. I hope that was not using library or 2nd or 3rd fur.
    Maybe we do need 1 cottage in the capital? Trim that Alpha date.

    Mitch:

    That was me re-rolling a new ice age map and just lazily playing an OCC game (no settler build available). I was not trying to speed tech but just wanted to have an idea of how far the AI could tech on a normal ice age map. I had no commerce tiles in my city, just cow and I added a dry rice to make it somewhat like our game.


    LC:


    So that really doesn’t tell us when ironworking starts to get finished by the AI’s. Preferably will know the likelihood of IW based on our fastest alpha projection.

    WT:

    I'm predicting we find a 3rd city with seafood. We can settle that ASAP and break even at size 1. As it grows it can work more and more coastal +2c to boost us to Alpha. This is where our 1st workboat from Cows will probably go.

    LC:

    T19 myst = t35 crab nets. Then all three furs rapidly after. That adds a quick +10bpt (2gems+crabs). Pays for myst in what, 7-8t? Bet that’s much better than skipping myst and gives Gems something to build.

    Been wondering about the wines. Farm? Cottage?

    Not sure myst is t19 though if Mitch ran occ.


    Mitch:


    Right. Don't use my turn numbers to in that test run to draw any conclusions about our expected tech progress in the actual game. The only reason I ran that test was to get an idea how quickly Emperor-level AI would research on an ice age map and to see how likely it would be to get IW on Alpha-2 (get Mining on Alpha-0 and BW on Alpha-1). Only 2 of 6 AI had IW by T74.

    It feels like self teching Mysticism won't hurt us that much. As mentioned, it gives us +1 and gives us a fail gold option with SH. There really isn't much to build so we need to put our hammers somewhere...

    WT:

    You are absolutely right. Should make Alpha earlier than if we skip Myst.

    And, Mitchum, has a great point about Henge. Myst back on the agenda.

    Monarchy comes pretty fast and pretty easy to get, so probably we farm the wine. No sense investing in cottage growth. Also, to grow, the city will need to work food + farms first and then maybe a cottage at size 5 or 6+. We want to always be working that wine at size 3+, ergo, it has to be a farm.

    Mitch:

    One more advantage to AH -> Myst is that it gives us 10ish more turns to make the go/no-go decision on the Alphabet beeline.


    Mitch:



    LC:

    I’m most interested in the possibilities to the south and east of the gems settler. So I would go:

    1. DeerSE mv se (as marked)
    2. EGems mv se-e (marked se-se)
    3. Sheep mv se-se (marked se-e)

    If I’m not mistaken that maximizes our coverage of the possibilities just in case we want to settle further east.

    The other two I agree as marked.

    With each move, if anything noteworthy turns up, we should stop and discuss if needed.


    Mitch:


    For 2, going SE-SE puts the settler on a hill and will expose all of the coastal tiles to the south. The ONLY tile going SE-E exposes that is not exposed by SE-SE is the forested plains tile at Rice-SE. What could be in that forest that would affect our settling location.

    LC:

    I see what you’re saying. In that case I would do step three second because one thing I’m looking for is any hills with whatever like gold or who knows what two tiles to the east. So then number two could be as you say or as I say depending on what makes sense. Any case I’m just throwing out ideas.


    Mitch:

    Also note that EGems settler moving SE-E puts him on a jungle tile. That could mean that there is more jungle down there. It would take a lot to make it worth it to leave the PH+sheep spot, I think. The most likely thing that would make us move would be a nice commerce tile (which wouldn't be on that forest tile) or a fishing-boat load of seafood south of the gems.


    LC:


    Actually the only thing I’m really certain about is the deer south east settler moving south east. Interestingly your original plan of settling the Cow city on T2 allows us to explore that upper area quite significantly. In fact the settler on that hill could go Northwest and the settler to the north east could come to the plains hill this turn. And so on. I’m not saying I think we should do that. But it is a possibility.

    WT:

    I'm pretty sure the mapmaker wants us all to settle those 2 cities given the plainshills. I'm not expecting to find much nearby, but like I said, if it's a seafood site, we can settle #3. Gold would be tempting too, but then we have to do Mining.
    I'm half-predicting we immediately run into 2-3 AI which will force us into war(s). It can't be as simple as settling the sweetest 7 spots before the AI builds a settler. This could mean IW rush, but if they're good tech traders, maybe trade before killing them. I can't wait to find out!


    LC:


    Interesting. Or it may mean early settling of prime sites with crashing economic consequences for some period of time.

    I looked at some World builder Ice Age maps. Seems like we probably have continents, right? They didn’t seem so horrible mostly. The tundra is mostly to the far north and south. I think the map maker gave us a crap area to slow us down.

    I’m wondering if one settler to the north west and one to the north east is enough and everybody else be line southward.

    Cow calcs:

    T12 ah
    T14 wkr
    T17 cow pasture
    T20 myst, wb1
    T23 p2
    T25 monument
    T35 borders pop

    This doesn’t optimize Gems (t12-13 work wines instead of sheep for +2c -2f) but haven’t checked the damage. Seems like earliest border pop is ideal.

    Btw: assumes -3gpt maintenance with 2 workers. T/F?


    Mitch:


    True. I just checked in the test game. If we have all settlers scouting and 2 workers, we're at -3gpt (no unit maintenance). If we build 1 more wb, we're at -3gpt. As soon as the wb moves out of our borders, we start paying supply costs. As soon as we build a second unit, we start paying unit costs.

    Said another way, if we have 2 cities, 2 workers in our borders and 5 units scouting out and about, we're not paying any maintenance. We can build one more unit and not play unit costs, so we could build an MP unit, for example. But as soon as we move one more unit out of our borders (in addition to the 5 settlers) or build more than 2 workers + 2 more units, our costs go up.

    Settling a third city too early will be interesting. We'll have to be careful not to crash our economy.


    LC:


    Maybe one of the northern settlers after scouting around a bit could just stay inside our borders so the workboot could go out for free.


    Also if I’m not mistaken once you start paying unit costs it’s minus one gold per extra unit. With the supply costs it’s minus one gold per two units.


    Mitch:

    The reasons I was sending 2 settlers north west were 1) to speed up the process of finding another city site and b) because there were 2 settlers already up that way.

    The reasons to only send 1 settler north west are A) meeting the AI early won't speed up research on AH but it could speed up research on Mysticism, 2) there aren't likely tons of great spots in the tundra to the NW, c) the better city cites are likely to the south away from the tundra in the north and 4) the area to the northwest likely narrows and ends based on maps I've seen so it can easily be covered by a single settler (which would be the one to come back and hang out within our borders when we send the scouting wookboot out).

    This post initially started as a way to argue against LC's idea but I talked myself out of it.

    Maybe the best plan is to send the settlers in these general directions:

    • Wine-NW: North west
    • Sheep: North east (after going SE-SE on T0)
    • Deer-SE: South west hugging the coast
    • Wine-SW: South staying inland from the coast
    • E-Gems: East and then south east (after going SE-(S)E on T0)
    WT:

    I normally wouldn't get involved with scouting, but since the game can't move forward it's one thing we can discuss.
    My suggestion would be:
    Deer E - SE
    because then it looks like it can go SE - SW next turn.

    Although, with your Deer - SE move, we reveal the tile at Deer-4S.
    So maybe yours is better so we don't have to circle back.


    Mitch:

    es, that gets us further on T1. But what if by moving on that PH on T0 we find an awesome city site with a few seafood resources? Said another way, is there anything that scout might see by moving SE on T0 that would make us settle that city instead of crabs (or in addition to crabs). If the answer is nothing, then I agree that your suggested path makes more sense.

    WT:

    Your move SE also puts us on a PH, which is probably where we'd settle if we see 2 seafood.

    LC:

    To me the key point with that spot is that it gets both gems. We want to know if we want to settle there instead of the other gem siteor whatever.

    Still to discuss: optimization of the alphabet beeline. I’d still like to know how long it takes using actual MM. Assuming we settle those two cities. And nothing else.

    Comments:

    1. Obviously we look at the actual save before we do anything. Fog gaze.
    2. It appears there’s a towel (“What idiot said that?” - eds. Lol : tile. New CIV resource: towels. Categorized under beachwear...) to the west of the fur. We don’t know if we’ll need two scouts for due west and for northwest or not. What if we move the first three scouts in the south eastern region then decide if we’re going to actually settle those two cities and if so do that? Settling cows will tell us a little bit more about what’s to the west and whether we need to send two scouts in that direction or just one.

    WT:

    back when we were discussing MassMedia and Diplo victory...so we wouldn't have to build Eiffel. We still can't build GLH because the UN is a merchant wonder.

    LC:

    Notes to add to the chart:
    1. Need GP for the corp (already discussed)
    2. Drydocks city must be coastsl
    3. West Points requires level-6 unit
    4. We might have to accept settling only stone or marble...so
    5. Stone bonus on: dun, cathedral, moai, oxford, West Point, mids, kremlin,

    Also Angkor, Itza, SH, spiral (prophet),
    Notre (artist)
    HG (GE)
    Sankore (sci)

    6. Eiffel w/iron is cheaper than UN.

    WT:

    whoa. level 6. I guess I've never build West Point. What is that in XP?
    Normally it's 26xp, so it's 20xp for Charismatic? right?

    So we need a Great General


    Now we know we have to fight no matter what. Likely an early war to get good land, or...
    The strongest unit we will have all game is Cuirassier, which is known as a good unit for clearing the map. (Cavalry, Infantry, Marine all require Rifling) This all makes me think...
    Since Eiffel is cheaper than UN, and we can start building it earlier, and we won't need Mass Media at all, maybe the answer is (as usual):
    Kill 'em All
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  9. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    12,799
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Spoiler :
    Kait:
    Spoiler :


    First thought is, what a garbage map!
    Only 2 city sites and 7 settlers.

    OCC makes me want to just settle countless Great Merchants in the capital science (probably the gems city) for +1 and just feed 1 giant city full of cottages with happy and health resources to tech like crazy.
    Or make the coastal start the capital at the start, then move the capital (160) to gems city or an AI capital location later once we have 4 cities?
    Ugh, with 0 our 2nd city won't get nearly as much as our capital at the start.

    We can only build 6 Great Wonders?
    Awwww

    So much for AP+Sankore+Spiral Minaret powered Temples, Monasteries, and Cathedrals.
    AP and Spiral Minaret conflict.

    Next thought is with cheap Barracks and 6 settled cities, we could really rush an AI capital with C1+Cover Warriors and get a nice 7th city fast.

    Next thought is, Biology has to be the strongest tech on this map right?
    +1 farms could really speed things up if we need to found a corporation (Cereal Mills? / Refrigeration) + broadcast tower (Radio for Eiffel) + lab (Super Conductors) + industrial park (Industrialism)
    With only 7 cities to get resources, I'm not sure how strong a corporation itself could get.
    Communism is a must with the free Great Spy becoming the Intelligence Agency and Kremlin generating spy gpp.

    If we are going the peaceful route, we could skip oracle and AP and build a religious shrine.
    Spread our religion to the whole world for a lot of + per turn and peaceful teching without many wars in the world.
    Get Fascism for the free Great General xp to build west point.
    Diplo win with UN?

    A game start with 0 rapid expansion, only extremely strategic city placement.
    So weird.
    Will read the pre-game discussion 2 years ago and this 10 page convo now.

    **Edit**
    6 extra settlers.
    6 AI with capitals on presumably good land so the Emperor AI has a chance.
    Lady stoneheart with 2 civ war traits.

    WT:

    Does charismatic trait need 30 points for the first gg or does that scale down too?


    Kait:


    It is still 30 points.
    Only Imperialistic civs get double gg xp.


    LC:


    Iasked myself how can we make more food in the cities but I never would’ve in 1 million years thought of using great merchants.

    In the early days, I think before sushi caught on, the biology liberalism slingshot bulbing GSes was one of the top ways to win. You get to biology really fast doing that.

    I forget how many GSes you need.


    Mitch:


    So now we need GSs for bulging and GMs for food?


    Kait:


    Heh, right.

    I'm not sure if 1 settled GM with +6 per turn and a plains river cottage is that much better than a settled Great Scientist.
    It might only be slightly better?

    Let me see if Bureau multiplies the gold.
    **Edit**

    Bureau does not multiply the gold.
    Still, if the settled GM allows for the plains river cottage to be worked, and the slider is at 100%, then that GM is like +6 and +5(Town + Printing Press) per turn vs. +1 and +6 per turn from the settled Great Scientist.

    Mmm, really fast Biology.
    We could also set up a National Park if there are a lot of forests around a city and get a ton of free specialists.


    WT:


    GSpy can do that? No, You're thinking of Scotland Yard.
    We have to build it for 180.

    I forgot about Fascism gives a free GG. That leaves the 100% peaceful option still on the table.

    Kait:

    Good catch!
    Yes, I was thinking of Scotland Yard.
    What we actually need is the 180 building from Communism yup.

    Fail is really good if we get stone or marble, but not being able to complete world wonders ourselves severely limits when we can cash out when we need

    Academy only works in really long games with a great capital and 100% science slider most of the game.
    It is also nice when you have to self-tech a lot of things that can't be bulbed by Great Scientists.


    Mitch:


    It feels like peace, propping up the AI and trading techs liberally will get us through all the techs we need the fastest. With only 7 cities, our tech pace is going to be painfully slow.

    LC:

    Possibly monitor the AI production of selected wonders by building up failgold then trading the multiplier resource for 10 turns?


    One problem with the peace option and accelerating AI tech is the liberalism slingshot. For that matter of the Oracle slingshot if we want to do that.

    Reading the mapmaker’s mind again, I wonder if he gave us two obvious city sites for T0 to prevent us from moving our whole base of operations south or west...This is reputed to be a heavily altered Ice Age map.


    Maybe a combination is a good thing. If we’re going for 10 GPs that we build, how many of each do we need? And when?

    Somehow you also have to factor in the plus one food from biology on the farms that we would have there instead of the cottages. We would have to see how much of our research would come after biology, and how big we can grow our cities based on health resources, which might be our most valuable commodity, but with farms early on we can grow at least one city to very large dimensions and then with biology run a butt load of scientists. Right?


    Is it even possible to run failgold on national wonders? Once we start building one in one OCC can we then put hammers into another OCC on that wonder?

    Mitch:

    So, are we on a Liberalism-Biology slingshot or a State Property beeline? We should probably put together a great person bulbing plan together (something WT mentioned long ago) so that we don't screw that up by researching or trading for a tech that messes things up.

    Also, based on what we know right now, is this most likely a kill 'em all game or a peaceful game? If we can't tell just yet, when will be be able to figure it out?

    For example, if we think Diplo is on the table, we'll have to ensure that we do not build some other GM wonder so that the UN is still on the table.

    Kait:

    I think it has to be biology.

    State property shines with a large empire and lots of grassland workshops.
    Ours will be small with plains.

    If most of the map ends up as unfarmable tundra rather than plains, I would change my mind.

    The horrifying tundra forest lumbermill empire.

    The map maker has destroyed 95% of advanced strategies by getting rid of city gifts.
    Even easy Friendly relations are gone with the removal of Liberate.

    We also can't just go out and grab more resources that we want.
    If it isn't inside the borders of one of our 7 cities or something an AI has 2 of, we won't be able to get it.
    Might even want to use a Great Artist bomb on a landlocked city to grab a bunch of resources and forests.

    LC:

    Gems - 15 farmable tiles
    Cows - 7 farm tiles
    How much bio GMO food can we eat without birth defects? Our pop may be limited by healthy or happies, especially with globe in Artist.

    By the way, in our test game I settled 2 cites and put the Eiffel Tower in one of the cities. Both cites then had a Broadcast Tower. So I think this means we can skip MM if we aren't going for a Diplo win, right?

    So our GM wonder is either Eiffel or UN so we can skip discussions about all other GM wonders (e.g. GLH), agreed?

    WT:

    IIRC, Lib-Bio means you cannot get Compass (Optics, Astron are before Biology)

    LC:

    or we tech MM, build the broadcast tower, and choose a different VC. I just don’t see another merchant wonder that we want.

    I get 5 GSes: education, printing press, chemistry, scientific method (2)

    My rough calcs on biology beeline, assuming reasonable tech trades:

    30,000 to Biology (slingshot)
    93,000 to Superconductors (additional)

    We have a buttload after Bio.

    Extra 3744 for Fascism.
    Extra 5616 for MM.

    Edit: Just remembered, I forgot to subtract the GS bulbs from the 30,000. Probably about 8000 less.


    Mitch:


    I see 3,744 for Fascism in our test game. Where are you getting your numbers?


    LC:


    + Assembly line, right?

    Mitch:


    We need Industrialism for the Industrial Park in Engineer. Industrialism requires Assembly Line.



    LC:


    Sweet bejesus. Updated above. That only added about 26k beaklers.


    SE to biology requires the Pyramids as mission critical, so we’ll need an early engineer city.

    Stone is the most vital resource. Will we get it?


    Maybe the mapmakers goal was to make a traditional cultural victory the fastest route.


    Kait:

    I dont think so.
    We will not be able to acquire a large variety of religions to Cathedral up.

    With only 7 cities, natural spread is limited.
    Founding religions is not so easy on Emperor if the AI have nice capitals.
    Taking a new religion by force by capturing cities will be impossible.



    There is no good place for an engineer city.
    There are no high production tiles to build Mids either.

    On the plus side for mids, not like there will be much else to build.

    It is a bit ugly, but we could try to bulb Math and tech Monotheism.
    25% production bonus and 2 border pops could chop a lot of forests if gems was our engineer city and the coast was our capital.


    Another choice is to Oracle Metal Casting in our Prophet city and whip a forge in our capital.
    Run an Engineer specialist for 50 turns, then instant-build Mids even if engineer city is a terrible spot.

    Mmm, those jungle gems almost want me to oracle Alpha so we can build and trade for techs as early as possible.


    Nothing game breaking is coming to mind.
    I'll see if the AP can assign cities to us without them razing, but I doubt it.

    The game might just be as simple as conquering stone, reach for mids, bulb to education, get Oxford up in 1 city with 1 university, then blaze for biology.

    LC:

    I thought I was having a nightmare, turned out it was real, our tech path.

    The question is, what’s the fastest way to get 80 to 90,000 beakers worth of techs after biology with 7 cities on ice age?

    My gut feeling is trading. And since mapmakers lately have been gleefully giving us negmods with trading partners, that could go south quickly. That’s an unknown for now. We also don’t know who our trading partners will be. But a couple thoughts came to mind.

    We fear you are becoming too advanced” may be a major factor. Do we really want to trade for cheap techs at the expense of multi-thousand beaker techs later on? Is alphabet really a priority at the beginning? And how do we balance these religious requirements with getting plus mods with our trading partners? Will we need a war victim for plus mods? Is there a way to use AP or an “early” UN for tech trading? If espionage is the best solution, does that affect how or where we settle? Should we save a settler or two for later in the game? Which (type of) cities don’t need to be settled early?


    Mitch:

    @LC I was planning to do a WFYABTA post or spreadsheet and keep it updated during the game.

    My thoughts on the Alphabet beeline are this:

    1. You have to consider the snowball effect of a tech. Getting a key early tech in trade, like Mining, BW, IW, Sailing, etc. can have a large impact on your development which gets the snowball rolling sooner. Getting an expensive tech in the last 20 turns has no effect on the snowball at all.

    2. You can only consider the number of beakers a tech costs but the number of turns to research it. IW may be way fewer beakers than a late-game tech but it may represent 10ish turns when we're struggling to keep our slider at 100% and we're generating about 50 beakers/turn. A late-game tech may be way more beakers but we're researching those when we have no trouble keeping the slider at 100% and we're generating thousands of beakers/turn (not sure about how many).

    3. We could get a lot of those cheap techs before we've met all of the AI so it won't add to the WFYABTA counter with all of them.

    In general, I agree with your concern but there is are a lot of factors (as you know). I think our first two city locations (barring finding anything with our early settler moves) and AH -> Mysticism are almost locked in. I think it will make sense to re-assess the situation after Mysticism before we pull the trigger on the Alphabet beeline.

    I think saving a settler for late game is risky. Doing this dramatically slows down the snowball. So the benefits of doing this would have to provide huge dividends to make it worth it. Again, this is something that can be debated once we have more map knowledge.

    I should also point out that an ice age map is only horrible near the poles. You can find some pretty good land in the middle of the map. We may find some nice locations for cities and possibly even move our capital south at some point.

    LC:

    How many bpt do our gurus envision us getting during the endgame? Wild guesstimate...

    I’m suspicious we’re getting more than 1000 bpt.


    WT:


    probably break 1000. 1500 is a stretch, but we might peak there (not average that during the end game)

    Mitch:

    Unless we see something with the settler moves on T0, are we all onboard with the general plan of settling the 2 PH cities on T0 (with the gems site being our capital) and researching AH first? I think all of this is good to discuss but I'm wondering if it has any impact on our planned start.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  10. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Game Characteristics
    Cylindrical
    Arid Climate
    High Sea level
    Aggressive AI
    773 land tiles
    Ice age map 84x36
    Science (65,20)
    Cows (60,21)

    Demo Screen Analysis
    Turn 0, T1, T5, AIs extra tech?, T32,

    PR Graph Reading
    T26, T26v2, T61,
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  11. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Anyone want to summarize our discussions do far?
     
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    You've got the premium first two posts. What do you need this one too? haha
     
  13. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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  14. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    BBP, you should sign up as a dedicated lurker, only visit our thread, and drop a pearl of wisdom here and there. ;)
     
  15. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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    That's pretty much exactly what I'm doing.
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Yes, I encouraged him to do the exact same thing. 'Players' don't need to play or even have a computer with Civ on it to contribute.
    Yay!
    ---------------------
    Apologies to MIrrorGuard, bbp, or anyone else added to our team. We couldn't stop ourselves from strategizing, and you've got some catching up to do once we post the private discussion (hopefully weeded out a bit)
     
  17. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Hey everyone, it's finally back! :D


    This game has a delightful tension.

    Settle cities now for immediate benefits, or wait for scouts and swords to open up better city spots.

    Would be the most fun if map maker had some paradise islands that can only be reached with astronomy.

    I've never played a game where scouting is so rewarded, a city loss is so devastating, and all the quick fixes with city gifting are impossible.
     
    Noble Zarkon likes this.
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    You can also join in in the tomfoolery. Some of us are easy targets… :mischief:
     
  19. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I've updated posts 6 through 9 with the bulk of our offline discussion. Smilies didn't copy/paste and it's possible to lose context because you can't see which post people were quoting. It's better than nothing but if you see something wrong, let me know and I'll fix it. I hand-typed the person quoted so it's possible that I screwed that up too (i.e. all of the dumb things I said I attributed to LC, for example).. ;)

    EDIT:
    @BBP

    If you have time, read through the offline discussion we had. It will bring you up to speed with what we're already discussed. It would be interesting to get your take on where we're headed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  20. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    You might want to sign up as a dedicated lurker in the official signup thread just so people don't get too upset when they see that you posted the game-breaking idea in our thread. haha

    Maybe it doesn't matter though. Unless you also credit for any laurels we win. ;)
     

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