[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Phoenix Rising

[lymond]

I got Sailing on T35 settling G the turn after Myst

Well, I was not really managing V and T much. V could have start right on Monument. T could use PH for faster monument, but that would delay Sailing a little.

But I think it is worth considering...sailing not that much different and mining will be fast afterwards.

Well, my focus was just on getting Sailing fast as possible. I was not focused on the detail micro of those builds. That could adjusted in a new test.

it was not so much about straining...

We could also test slightly delaying settling G but settling it sooner than Sailing arrives..maybe time it with the new workboat arriving

I'm going to run a new test with some adjustments and better micro on V and T

 

[Gumbolt]

Well earlier GLH get's us 2 extra trade routes per city. Trade routes from SB would net us 4-5 gold a turn. Much more with GLH.

An island city would also net us 5-6C a turn assuming no Colonial costs. So scouting will have some advantages.

So techs we need?
Myst 100%.
Mining - Needed for silver.
Masonry - Fail gold? Plus GLH
Sailing and BW
Big question is when SH might go and how much fail gold we get.
Writing would be great for open borders. Minute we find an AI coastal city our scouting workboat would become stuck. Assuming we don't meet Toku.

Our land mass is circa 200 tiles up to SB. So just over quarter of map.

It takes how many turns for workboat to reach city? So growth 2f2c vs -6 commerce? At size 3 that would be -7. Of course all cities increase in costs for each new city albeit cities near capital will fare better.

 

[Fippy]

Your game is in bad state Lymo, no or late monuments.
G strains you so much that you worked sea in Tolosa over hammers, not an option for me.

There are so many sacrifices for little gain, later scout boat (cos it's used by G) one of them.
~6t for boat from Vienne to G i think.

 

[Tonny]

yup, 6t for wb to fish

post #31 has all the costs for city maintenance explained.
haven't included colonial maintenance yet

i prefer sailing t34 and mining t39 over sailing t35 and mining ~t41

ok, lymond, mining will be equal.
but, T is 2 turns later on improving clam 2. V is 6 hammers behind on LH. and less scouting unnameables around.
It's hard to really compare when both saves are at different turns.

Currently running test...

 

[lymond]

How bout this test?

Waited and settled G the turn the wb arrived allowing for more gold generation.

V and T worked out real nicely with focus.

Sailing t35

Made some little tweaks along the way with tiles, and one turn at 30% which is a "break even" point

Current V wb in queue finishes after Monument and then scouts and new V wb tiles perfectly for crabs.

Scouting will be sacrificed a little but not terribly much. Worker moved up there and improved furs. GLH is behind like a turn or 2? We still have to complete LH anyway and should tech to Masonry pretty fast.

The pay off here IMO is that G will be online much sooner. Once Sailing is in everything will blossom. I think an earlier settling of G is worth consideration. Maybe it does not have to be in 5 or 6 turns but sooner

Another consideration is delaying Worker 2 since the furs not all that important and now he is idle..He can move to improve wines next before moving up

Tonny - mining would finish T39 at least with the furs in G

ha..well, I don't think it hurts for someone else to at least go through the motions of the test. I think it still may be feasible to settle G earlier than Sailing arrives so it can start blossoming faster.

I'm not sure what the different is with Vienne ...extra wb was built? It's 2 turns of on LH in both but are we really slowing down GLH ...not sure. (not sure diff in worker micro on Bibs either..did you put down farm first?)

G - early monument production while not immense over those turns is still sooner we get the other food working, plus we must consider G is growing sooner

 

[Fippy]

It's about what i had earlier today
We still sacrifice earlier scouting, our worker will wait on silver and we are behind on GLH.

Well Lymo, not sure what i can say but i did those tests and posted saves about them.
I am a bit lost why you are re-doing them now, go back please and check my testing 2 game, you can see almost equally your test.
Then i concluded why i think it's better that we wait.

Gumbo has it right, we are ~11t behind on scouting (G without boat = not worth settling).
Now usually that hurts later, and if we miss trades cos an AI with Alpha was met later even more.
If we miss GLH by 1t we prolly cry. Many if's for a little more monument prod in G.

Not like i insist, if everybody agrees that we can delay scouting we can settle G sooner.

Tonny i almost feel bad for pointing that out, but you are missing the 2nd scout boat from Vienne (working hammers loses commerce).

My worker micro was starting some plains farm and moving on deer in time of border pop.
G worker did wine before moving up (not sure if that's good), so there was plenty time in Bib.
However no furs in Vienne.

I see no other way than agreeing on a scouting plan, only if we know that we use our first boat for G (or not) we can move on.
What's more important.
Everything connects there, if we settle G sooner we totally want our worker moving up fast (no time for furs or wine), cos we at least want G furs improved in this case so we can profit some commerce back.

 

[Gumbolt]

So we delay G for 5-6 turns and scouting to speed up science to allow mining in time?

AI are unlikely to prioritise GLH given aggressive AI. I think we will have time. Factor also the slow starts here with no workers and very poor starts.

With 7 settler start we will have a huge advantage early on. Especially with 2 workers and great land. I don't think were going to lose GLH. AI would have to tech sailing. Unless gifted a lot of techs or strong hammer tile it seems unlikely?

No scouting would only be a disaster if we missed an important island site. We would of still needed a galley to make any find useful. I can't see how delaying a great city helps us? We want our best cities up asap? Could we afford too many cities now? I guess we have to hold back 1-2 settlers in case. Must be fish here somewhere?

What are all these new tests actually proving?

At what point would we be settling the other western city?

Too many test games finishing on different turns. Apples to pears.

So what is impact on G if workboat goes exploring? I am guess at least 1-2 pop in size and quite a bit of commerce? We won't get 2c trade routes till we have writing. AI will be really late to writing?

 

[Tonny]

new testgame with furs
i've done nothing fancy
sailing t33, mining t37
G settled turn 33

I absolutely agree on missing the 2nd wb here
it's a trade-off

added t45 save for comparison with lymond.
still haven't done any fancy things, but masonry is in at t44 and bib finished worker and is working failgold on TGW (if not already built)

getting a headache here

My, can you play your testgame up to t45?

Nitey

I'm still here though.
I'll probably try some more tests tomorrow
I'm loving this!

Good Night All!

 

[lymond]

Hey My..I've been testing a bit more from our saves. Still working on that, but you have GLH timed nicely for sure...the silver mine times perfect for finishing Masonry.

Attached My's t45...ph mine timed perfect

(still not sure of your original worker micro in terms of Bibs and being on that deer in time)

So in my example, G monument will finish about 7 turns sooner. GLH will start 1 or 2 turns later (my mind can't reconcile that entirely but we could finish LH sooner to time with masonry by using a forested PH at size 4)
Vienne will also be bit behind in growth and improvements cause G worker moved up.
(one idea is possibly an earlier worker 3 from Bibs and stall some of the hammers in Henge)

Gumbo..settling G without the wb is pointless

ah..yeah..figured G worker stayed back for some turns

Gumbo - these tests are proving whether we can get an earlier start on G's development without sacrificing too much empire-wide.
Scouting is very important to me as yall know, but not sure a few turns delay on scouting > kick-starting development of a great city
that, to me, is the question

Is that what you did in the first test - improve farm before wine? I was not sure..I moved straight to wine from horses.

Also, what's the plan on scouting wbs - 2 or 1? What's the timing of that wb from V moving toward Tolosa..maybe even revealing a few tiles along the way..and using for Tolosa

We've been kind of ignoring the boat though. Can't recall when it finished. However, it was out for some turns it could move to the south area a bit just to get a peak and then net Tolosa. Tolosa's boat - I assumed would head E (we might be able to settle Trips after Masonry - something to think on). Not sure about NW ..that seems more questionable than S and E areas, but G could build wb for that)
edit: actually Tolosa WB would net Trips first
Trips cost 5g by the way, but still at +18gpt at 0%

Not if we settle Trips
We can go E through Trips and over Cahokia...only issue is if he happens to settle up there first, but we can check out the N land and then head W if needed..or wait for OB

true..that city spot W of G is really strong too and if that is considered a given..only 2 settlers remain

Yep..this is one of those strategy days ..ha
Nitey!

you too ..yeah..don't think this is a decision to rush into..could be pivotal to the game..the testing is all good. ..and we can all sleep on it

thanks for testing, Tonny!

Haha...good T...this is what SGOTM is all about...there is really nothing quite like it

Knights!

 

[Fippy]

For reference, that's the best micro i can manage for T35 sailing with settling G as soon as boat arrives. And for worker moving up.
(Improving started farm in Bib instead of wine was a mistake, but can be fixed easily).
And maybe giving up scouting boat in Tolosa sooner.
Should be like yours Lymo.

Yep i figured wine gives only 1c more, but farm arrives 2t sooner..
however it's of not much use.

Basically we may also have to delay scoutboat from Tolosa for earlier settle.
Idea was to use V boat for NW and T boat for south.

Complicated situation..
we cannot go east, SB is blocking us.
There are 2 ways we can go only right now, and would have 2 boats if we delay G.
+ we may not want that city near SB later, 3 food but literally nothing else.

Anyways my head starts to spin, see ya guys tomorrow.
We are 2 then Tonny
Nitey Gumbo.
Has to be done sometimes Sleep well.

 

[Gumbolt]

Goggle eyes here. Keep waking up at the crack of dawn. Anything around 5.30ish is bad news.

Shouldn't settle all cities till we have scouted islands.

Nights from me too.

 

[Fippy]

I thought we forgot something, and tested BW before Masonry.
Benfits are that we can work more commerce (i must to Tonny for dismissing Vienne Furs ~~), chop G monument (which makes up for later settling), and Tolosa works coast more often without losing much progress (can whip monument into LH and also whip that shortly after, i think happies are no issue here with our resis and Cha).

Everything times very well, some pics

Spoiler :

We also have our 2 scoutboats, i believe not sending one NW past G would be a mistake, ice age maps have a layout where we might get very far there.

(if you wonder about the empty plains at Bib instead of wine in original testgame, it's cos we somehow have 1 less beaker in the real game. So we should deduct one manually)

 

[Gumbolt]

Remember a lot of these chops on wasteland will take 4 turns. Albeit whipping will be a big boost. It seems your planning BW after sailing but before masonry? How much of a risk is that to GLH?

Personally i think the AI will struggle to get GLH. Much here also depends on dates these wonders go.

 

[Fippy]

Yup, i think it's no delay on GLH cos of fast research.
We might have time, but we actually need GLH just for our economy.

For not considering them (me), i used them often in the BW saves.

Think so yup, with BW the worker up there also makes more sense.
If scouting boat has to return, it can be used for seafood (also an advantage of sending one up).

I think so for Oracle, Pyras might be out of our reach without stone.
In a no early wars game, Constitution could also become a research goal.
But really difficult to tell so early.

 

[Tonny]

(i must to Tonny for dismissing Vienne Furs ~~)

Plz help me out, I don't understand this. In the added pictures I see that Fur is worked.
Did you mean for not dismissing furs?

This is a testgame I like

I guess there's room to finish the wbs in time to work the crabs at G.
Next build at G will be a wb or 2?

At least My figured out the tech order and what tiles to improve.
Now we can tweak the testgame to our liking.
When to settle G exactly, how many wb's and when, when to finish monuments, etc...
We're almost at the right spot

hi lymond! we're all together again!

I'm looking at wonderdates in the strategy articles with normal settings and at immortal/deity difficulty.
Fastest GLH at immortal went t70 and fastest Pyramids went t72.
We won't have problems getting GLH, but I'm a bit concerned with the Mids.
Oh almost forgot... fastest Oracle at immortal went t51. That'll be even more difficult to obtain (should we choose to go with Oracle)

No problemo Gumbolt, see ya back soon!

 

[Gumbolt]

Only so much you can squeeze out here. Myst before mining is definitely right. Light houses give us something to build.

I don't think our tech order is wrong here. If we delay sailing it will delay light houses. Which slows growth.

I thought the debate was around when to settle and over exploring workboats.

Yes team together.

I need to pop out for 15 mins or so.

 

[Fippy]

Well i am playing something else, not much going on.

 

[Gumbolt]

Sorry took longer than I thought.

So are we still testing or do we have a good idea of way forward here?

Where did Lymond go?

Just need warrior princess back.

Mids is a big investement. Ai would need 2-3 cities before they even started building it. Rivals best MFG is 6. So maybe an AI somewhere started with sheep? Pretty sure they would go SH/GW before considering mids. I wonder how AI behave if isolated.Not sure it's worth testing.

 

[lymond]

I'm right here ...sorry busy day..but cleared up now

Let's not forget the appropriate city for a wonder. Mids does seem like a longshot although we could put hammers in it somewhere if nothing better to do - no settlers really frees up hammers. Sometimes Mids can go bizarrely late and with agg ai that is a possibility. But that wonder or any other GE wonder must go where Ironworks resides. That city in far NW looks very good for that though less chops for mids. G and T ok.
Far NW city also good for Maoi

Oh..I'm ok with BW approach...still like to see G settled early than t34 or whatever turn it was planned, but I'm tested out on this point.
BW seems to call for possibly an earlier new worker from Bibs

Mids is large but any GE wonder is going to be a lot without stone or possibly marble (Hagia). Cristo is another one and actually could be a strategic wonder for use late game and is on the requisite Tech path. 1000H but goes in city that should have IW by that point.
Hagia and Mids are 500H no bonus.
HG is only 300H
Not sure if there is another GE wonder...at least in our timeframe. But Mids early would certainly be of great benefit.
Ah..3GD only other GE producer but ridiculous and a tech we don't need at all
Technically Mining Inc is considered a GE producing wonder but must go in HE city, which is really bizarre come to think of it.

G is ok for Maoi, but the city W of G is fierce for Maoi. Though when it comes to Oracle we may not have a luxury on these decisions.

Well Corp HQ is still GE producing..no real way around that so any wonder would work. Maybe a military like wonder such as Pentagon. Corp HQ really should be in Wall city, but don't really see corps being much here and we can only ever found one corp

 

[Tonny]

T looks okay for Mids, a few hills and 4 bfc forests and riverside for levee and ironworks

the last eng wonder is Three Gorges Dam... ugh... 1750 hammers

G could easily grab oracle imo, enough food for whipping into oracle and i think it needs to have moai to make it a A-class city

That's the problem with the General City... There are no wonders that generate GG points, Therefor NZ considered the HQ as a nice replacement.

As you mentioned earlier Gumbolt... AI seem to be struggling here... SB going for 2 plains farms?!?!