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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    @Deckhand - Thanks - makes sense. I didn't consider a map with multiple independent oceans - I've only played a map like that a couple of times.

    @Zhary - I'm a GO with you running a scouting turn to learn more info. Make sure to grab the demographics like deckhand said, and don't pick a tech for the first 5 turns. (I agree that AH is a solid first tech.).

    I'm just starting work now, so I'll be AFK for ~12 hours.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  2. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    I'm good with all that.
     
  3. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    Ok if deckhand approves I move settler B,C,F and G according to sitting down's picture.
     
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  4. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    (Feel free to adjust my movements. I had two options for C - whatever works).
     
  5. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    Green

    If E isn't settling immediately, he could go 2east while C goes NE.
     
  6. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    @Zhary What are your thoughts on settling on turn 0?
     
  7. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    A would be ok in place on PH for fast worker, ocean access, and decent food, plus all the lux tiles for commerce when needed. Can move palace later if needed.
     
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  8. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Hello everyone!

    Broadly agree with @SittinDown 's diagram for initial moves. Nice work!

    Is it worth making E the capital, and A the 2nd city? That way, E will rapidly border pop to get the gems. E is essentially useless before a border pop, whereas A at least the cow. The disadvantage is E is short of food until we can irrigate to the rice and build a winery.

    I don't think we should settle more than 2 cities at fhe start - both because of crippling our science before workers can do much and because we don't know if we'll find better spots later.

    And should we be considering victory conditions. Off the top of my head....
    • Conquest: Potentially good, though depends a bit whether we need astronomy. The advantage is we can eliminate most of the other civs, just leave one opponent with one city, and then wait until we have met all the requirements for victory before destroying the last rival.
    • Domination: Obviously, impossible.
    • Culture: Could work. Especially if it turns out we need astronomy to get a conquest victory.
    • Space: Not good as would lead to very late finish date - building a spaceship with only 7 cities will be difficult.
    • Diplo: Possible, but chancy on the date... we'd have to get all our cities with all the buildings in and then don't know how many turns it would take to manipulate a victory.
    • Religious. Ditto diplo. I'm not sure if this is even possible - can we build all the required buildings without obsoleting the apostolic palace?
    To me, that suggests conquest or culture.
     
  9. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    • Gems have jungle, so they're locked up until IW, and we don't have mining.
    • Culture may be tough with the wonder restrictions and lack of food making GA spamming hard - but I'm not that good at culture victories.

    • Hadn't considered SIP for E. but I see the advantage. Had been thinking of making 2 cities out of that, but the Sheep - Wine city would be pretty weak. If E is the capital, it'll pop we can start improving rice on T-13, which means the farm is up on T-17? A capital could consider a WB first - it'd be done on T-10, so the crab would be up on T-11?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  10. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    @Zhary - thanks for the test save.
    • Note: trade route does NOT connect A&E until culture borders meet or SAILING.
    • Settler E SIP doesn't look too good.
      • Has to work a 1/1/1 tile to start with. 15 turn worker despite the PH.
      • No Mysticism, so border pops are many turns away, or must be the capital.
    • Sheep and Crabs are the only 4 food tiles.
    • If we SIP A on turn one, one of the settlers will need to go inside our borders, or we'll have to pay 1 GPT.
    • Deer takes 5 turns to improve.
    A should be the capital, I think.

    Tried out Work Boat versus Worker first. Seems equal on food. WB gets more beakers. Worker gets more hammers.

    WB first:
    • 10 - WB done. Hammers into warrior 1-turn so capital grows.
    • 11 - Capital size 2. Crab improved.
    • 12 - AH.
    • 20 - Worker done.
    • 23 - Cow improved. Warrior built. .......166 beakers into 2nd tech. +5 food
    • 25 - Capital size 3. Has to work a junk tile for a couple turns.
    Worker first:
    • 12 - Worker and AH researched.
    • 16 - Cow improved. Worker heads to next target, whatever that is.
    • 20 - WB done.
    • 21 - crabs ready. Capital size 2. Furs ready (but not worth much yet).
    • 23 - Deer ready (if not furs). Warrior finished. ....... 145 beakers into 2nd tech. +5 food
    • 25 - Capital size 3. Deer ready. ...I didn't calc the hammer difference, but worker first gets more hammers because it works the cow longer.
     

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  11. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Oh is that jungle on the gems? Yeah, that ruins E as an early capital. Also that rice isn't by a river - so we can't farm it until civil service. I'm still thinking E could work as a city later on in the game. It hasn't got a lot of food, but on this map, it looks like very few places will.

    How about whoever takes the start moves all the settlers as you suggested, except A and E, with C going NE, and then posts a map so we can confirm what to do - with A and E still to move. I suspect we will decide to settle A in place and have E explore eastwards, but we can confirm once we have the extra map info.
     
  12. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    Ok moved settler b,c,f,g. Only new is clam in sea south of rice. AI have already settled capitals at size 1 with equal military strength. Every capital is by water.
    I've missed that the map was high sea level, start techs hunt+fish+agg and with aggresive AI. Was that in the announcement?

    info.jpg settlerB.jpg settlerc.jpg settlerf.jpg settlerg.jpg vc.jpg info.jpg settlerB.jpg
     
  13. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    Some thoughts about VC and testing:

    Conquest: If it is reasonable or not we will see in the first 50 turns or so.
    Diplo and religion: We need broadcast tower so UN are probably good choice here since AP nullifies the other religiuos wonders. I was thinking bout actually getting the hence for the free monument both for borderpop and extra happiness.
    Culture:We need to be lucky with the religious spread here. for me it feels like a to random approach.

    About capital I testply to turn 50 with 2 cities only. I choose 2 tech paths ah->writing->alpha or fill with myst+worker tech. The main issue with both I think is that there is hard to fill hammers into anything except warriors sometimes.
    With the alpha beeline tactics I consider sip E to be the best capital with sip A as second. The extra we have here is (if every wtechis tradeable) alpha, sometimes sailing, library in both cities and half a gscientist.

    With myst and wtechs, A sip would be the best capital with E sip second city which border pop with a monument. The extra we got here is granary in both cities and ~170 failgold for henge alternative henge+50 failgold.

    When it comes to city sizes and improvements both approach is almost the same.
     
  14. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Thanks @Zhary - I'll take a look at the demographics later unless someone beats me to it.
    • Science city needs a lab - [Computers] - so we need to get very deep in the tech tree.
    • Not saying we should or shouldn't - but If we do build Henge, that city has to be the Prophet city, and then we can't Oracle, or AP, for example.
    • E CANNOT build stonehenge - because the Prophet city must be coastal.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  15. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Just "food" for thought... if we need a Corp and are thinking Culture VC is viable, Sid's Sushi should be a priority. Rice and seafood are surely available on the map. Helps grow large cities, for running specialists, too. Cathedrals only require a single temple, also.

    With High Seas a conquest will not be so fast, especially considering everything will auto-raise (by the time units arrive, they could be obsolete).

    Agg AI make any diplo/AP VC that much slower, too.
     
  16. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    I'm gonna decipher the demographics and update the test game tonight and play a couple of scenarios around to turn 40 or so, with various combinations of settling A & E. I should post an update in about 10 hours.

    Let me know if there's anything special you'd like me to try out.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  17. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Yep, and to add to that:
    • General city must also be coastal (because needs a drydock)
    • We must go to war at some point - in order to get the XP to build heroic epic.
     
  18. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Gosh what utterly awful land! Is it worth moving D SW to check that SIP A won't orphan any seafood? (although he can only see two of the three relevant sea tiles on turn 0, checking the final tile would have to wait a turn before settling :eek2:). On this map, we absolutely don't want to waste any food resources. If it doesn't orphan any seafood, then I'm inclined to SIP A. E is nice in the long run but would give us a very slow start.

    And yeah, the starting techs were in the announcement. I didn't notice anything about aggressive AI though.
     
  19. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Ok - here's my analysis of the demographics:

    Rivals:

    Everyone has Wheel, Hunting, and Archery, plus maybe some other stuff, but nobody has Mining.

    Definitely:
    • Ottoman - Mehmed - (Org, Exp)
    Some of the following:
    • Arabia - Saladin (Spi, Pro)
    • Byzantine - Justin (Spi, Imp)
    • Mongolia Genghis - (Agg, Imp)
    • Mongolia - Kublai - (Agg, Cre)
    • Japan - Toko - (Agg, Pro)
    • Egypt - Rams - (Ind, Spi)
    • Egypt - Hatty - (Cre, Spi)
    • French - Louie - (Cre, Ind)
    • Ottoman - Suleiman - (Phi, Imp)
    • Sumeria - Giggles - (Cre, Pro)
    Definitely not
    • Anyone else. Not De Gaulle, not Mansa, not Ghandi, etc...

    Map:
    • Highlands is pretty similar to archipelago. Can corroborate, that each AI has between 2 and 4 coast in their first ring, with an average of 6.3 tiles land. Map probably heavily cooked to take out green tiles near us (maybe everywhere?), and probably get rid of horses, and/or pigs.

    Spoiler Reasoning :


    Used this, plus making test games: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/
    1. Everyone has 1,000 pop - so they founded their cities already. This helps us use approval rating and life expectancy to rule in or out EXP and CHA leaders.
    2. 18,000 soldiers across the board. That means no Mansa Musa, or Hammurabi. Also means everyone has The Wheel, but not Mining. Assuming they weren't gifted techs or units, that leaves:
      • Arabia - Saladin (Spi, Pro)
      • Byzantine - Justin (Spi, Imp)
      • Mongolia
        • Genghis - (Agg, Imp)
        • Kublai - (Agg, Cre)
      • Japan - Toko - (Agg, Pro)
      • Egypt
        • Rams - (Ind, Spi)
        • Hatty - (Cre, Spi)
      • French
        • Louie - (Cre, Ind)
        • Napoleon - (Org, Cha)
        • De Gaulle - (Ind, Cha)
      • Ottoman
        • Mehmed - (Org, Exp)
        • Suleiman - (Phi, Imp)
      • Sumeria
        • Giggles - (Cre, Pro)
    Based on Approval rating being 83% across the board, we can rule out Napoleon and De Gaulle.
    Based on Life Expectency being 91, avg 87, and worst 83, we know it's Mehmed at the top with EXP. The rest get some bonuses from forests.

     
  20. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Updated test game including new map info, likely AI's, and map settings.

    ...I ran out of time to actually test any scenarios - took longer than I thought to figure out the demographics and make the map.
     

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    Last edited: May 6, 2020

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