[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

[AlanH]

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 26 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished.

The Maintenance Thread is now open for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. You will find the Game Details in the Pre-Game Annoouncement Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, they will be posted in that thread.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck with the game. Enjoy!

 

[Deckhand]

Hi all,

Please check in. We can start putting our thoughts here.
kcd, DS, and Zhary have confirmed participation recently. I removed parenthesis from Zhary's name in team roster. We have three MIA newbies that I don't expect to join but would be happy to see.
We need neil to stop by sometime.
I'm reserving the next post to copy stuff from previous games.
I don't think we need an official captain - whoever is active can take the lead.
The "rules" will be in next post, but key one is active player to plan first and get approval before actually playing.

 

[Deckhand]

reserved for team status

 

[Deckhand]

Team Rules and Links, copied from US SGOTM23 which was copied from Shulec's post for SG20 team Civ Geeks United.

Team Rules and Etiquette

Spoiler :

Strongly Recommended

• Make manual saves often, preferably every turn, in case we need to review diplomacy screens or other metrics.
• Pause the game before uploading or examining it.
• Put TEST flags on the map on test games, and name test games so it's obvious they aren't the real game.
• Let us know if you are unable to make a deadline, get too busy in real life, or are going offline for vacation.
• Do not automate workers.
• Do not use city governors.
• Do not leave units on goto orders.
• Have fun!

Etiquette

• Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's an 'I agree.' Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of your absence.
• Pre-Play Plan -- The spirit of succession games is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.
• Timing -- We will stick to a schedule in order to complete this game within the 3 month ironcast deadline. It is still important to reach consensus and ensure quality of play.
  -An "Initial PPP" should be posted within 24 hours of the previous submission. After 24 hours, ANY player is open to posting an Initial PPP for team debate. Getting the debate going is sometimes the biggest delay as everyone may be waiting for a specific person to post the Initial PPP.
  -Game must be played within 48 hours of team consensus, otherwise ANY available player can post a "SUB" and immediately play the set
  -A "WILL PLAY" must be announced by the next rostered player, after the team consensus to 24 hours after a save is submitted. Otherwise YOU WILL BE SKIPPED.
  -Some sets will take much longer than others. If the UP player cannot play within 48 hrs of consensus due to RL issues, please inform the team early.
• Please, please, please include a report when you submit the save, complete with the CivFanatics log AND the BUFFY log. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.
• Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.
• Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player has strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the earlier SGOTM threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to players (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid.
• Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Don't play when your kids or spouse are talking to you.
• Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style. Accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
• Use smilies and emoticons in your posts. Jokes, humor, sarcasm, and offensive language can be misinterpreted, except when I am making them, when I will expect everyone to laugh!!
• Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.
• SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your case, and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in our game thread. That is what it's for.
• Have fun!

Pre-Play Plan
Summary: post got it, post plan, discuss plan, revise plan, don't play without greens from active discussers

Spoiler :

Turn Sets

There are 7 major parts to every set.

1. Initial Pre-Play Plan: see below.
2. Voting: everyone voices his or her opinion on the issues raised in 1.
3. Plan: see below.
4. Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
5. Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
6. Play the Set: see below.
7. Post the Report: see below

What is the Initial Pre-Play Plan?

The Pre-Play Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.

Below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points. If others feel that other missing issues should be raised, then the debate after the Initial PPP is the time to do it!

1. Technologies

• What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
• What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
• Are we planning a Great Person bulb?

2. Dealing with AIs

• Resource trade negotiations
• Espionage assignment
• Open borders (cancel or allow)
• AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)

3. City placement and builds - mostly in the beginning

• Where are you planning on sending a settler?
• Are you sending a worker along?
• Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
• Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
• Tile improvements around this city (food, hammers, commerce)

4. General micro

• Special tile assignments (starve city for specialists, switch to growth, etc.)
• Tile swapping with other cities
• Whips
• Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
• Dealing with happy/health caps
• Worker improvements and moves

5. Civics and religion

• Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for whip...)
• Are we expecting a religion change?

6.War - if applicable

• Refuse/accept AI war demands
• Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
• War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them, which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW...)

7. Bigger picture

• Gifts (city, gold, techs...)
• What AI do we try to please
• Goals for the future
• Diplo manipulation
• Extras

What your Plan should cover:

The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:

1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available, etc.) [this is easy].
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game [this is the hard part].

The team will almost certainly decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand, but for the first 100 turns this is expected.

How your set should go:

• Play according to the plan
• If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
• If you have to adapt, do so!
• You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.

What your set report should cover:

• WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
• Great Generals and Great Engineers in distant lands
• Religions founded
• Wonders built
• When to renegotiate trades
• What you were planning for the future
• How the plan worked out/didn't
• Anything unexpected
• Remember to post BOTH the CivFanatics log (found on the upload confirmation screen) and the BUFFY log.

*Copied from neilmeister, Apostrophes SGOTM 19, which was itself liberally copied from various team threads in previous SGOTM games.

Links

Spoiler :

References and useful links:

• Civ4 SGOTM Progress page
• BTS 3.13 tech tree
• CFC On-line Civilopedia
• Civilization Modiki
• Useful Civ data files from kossin
• HoF dates for different Victory Conditions
• Great People bulbing order. See GPbulbs.pdf for compact format.
• Great People bulbing and trade mission value
• Trade route rules and examples (see posts 76 and 80)
• Barbarian spawning and behavior. Example screenie.
• Diplomatic relations modifiers
• AI DoW logic
• AI personalities
• AI attitudes
• AI behavior (Kossin)
• spiceant's "Diplomatic Victory" post
• TMIT's Guide to UN Victories
• The Power of Sushi
• Duckweed's Guide to Spaceship Victory
• Yxklyx's "Apostolic Palace Guide"
• OSS/RRRaskolnikov SGOTM13 Ref list (Includes VOU's Religion spread)
• Anion's BTS manual (what the official manual should have been)
• Stuporstar's "Comprehensive Guide to Terrain, Improvements, Resources, and City Placement"
• The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained
• Difficulty level information
• Complete Espionage Mission Cost Guide
• Espionage Economy vs. Manual Research
• Tachywaxon's Slave Economy
• Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy) (a useful guide to AI leader behavior)
• The Culture through Espionage discussion thread
• Civic costs
• Beg rules

Let me know of any to add.

Test Games, Dot Maps, and Spreadsheets

• Instructions to make World Builder/test games
  
• Micro Spreadsheet

TL;DR
Have Fun

 

[Zhary]

Signing in. Looking forward to play civ again after a year.

 

[Zhary]

So maybe we would name our team "I wish I had more time for civ"...
Anyway thanks for the reminder Deck. The start is out and I have done a test game. Some observations:

If initial scouting doesnt reveal anything then the left spot(tripple fur) would be the the capital. It also seems like the rigth city should be settled after some turn to keep science up to speed.

In my mid lenght testing failgold from henge is always a winning tactic.

 

[SittinDown]

Tracking the things we need to build!

Prophet
Merchant
Artist
Scientist
General
Engineer
Spy

 

[Deckhand]

Sweet! thanks Zhary
I was thinking this game really needed a test game.
So many places to settle. Big question is when to settle the settlers and if any should take over another civ's capital.
I suspect we are isolated but no barbarians so don't need to worry about losing a settler to them.
I will have a look at the saves tonight or tomorrow. Do we start with any gold?

Hey - just caught wind of this today! I've been away from Civ4 for a few months.

Cool, welcome aboard.

 

[SittinDown]

Reserving for listing of available wonders by type:

As they get built, or we build them, we can simplify the list.

• Prophet (must be coastal because of Moai)
  • Angkor Wat
• General (must be coastal because of drydock)
  • Corporate HQ
• Merchant
  • Eiffel Tower
  • Statue of Libery
  • UN
  • Versailles
• Artist
  • Broadway
  • Holloywood
  • Rock n Roll
  • Sistine
  • Taj
• Scientist
  • Great Library
• Engineer
  • Pyramids
• Spy
  • Kremlin
  • Pentagon

 

[SittinDown]

AI's reference:

Sitting Bull - (T-4) - Philosophical / Protective. Dog Soldier.

• Started with a free Castle.

Builds Wonders 0/10
Builds Units 8/10
Espionage Spending 7/10

Flavor Military (Medium) + Growth (Low)
Faction (Peace Weight) Good (+8)
Base Attitude towards Human Player (+0)​

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-3#post-11931805​

Peter - (T-56) - Philosophical / Expansive.

Builds Wonders 6/10
Builds Units 6/10
Espionage Spending 7/10
Resists Capitulating 4/10
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-2#post-11931780

​

Bismark - (T-125) - Industrious / Expansive

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/#post-11931686
​

Charlemagne
Saladin
Louis XIV

 

[Deckhand]

Yea, had the same thought. ...can a settler take a city? I figured that couldn't work, even if the city was undefended.

What I meant was we settle in the ruins of another capital. Likely good location for a city and land probably developed. There is no way to actually capture a city.

Depending on victory condition, we might want/need a city on another continent(s).

Thanks for list of wonders! Something we needed.

 

[kcd_swede]

Hi, signing in... just noticed this thread was open. Subscribing to this and the Maint thread now.

 

[kcd_swede]

Just an update... I found a monitor and even an old-fashioned hdmi cable (white, bigger than vga connector) to make it work. Then I upgraded from Buffy v.003 to v.005 and test on the latest BOTM. Gosh... workers can be re-used but are slow, and you can have two military units on the same square! How's this gonna work...

 

[SittinDown]

Glad to see you @kcd_swede

What I meant was we settle in the ruins of another capital. Likely good location for a city and land probably developed. There is no way to actually capture a city.

Right - gotcha. So maybe save a settler for a while for better land. What are people thinking in terms of how fast to settle?

I plan on spinning up the test game in about 10 hours to try out a few things.

 

[kcd_swede]

No barbs, so definitely scout with settlers a bit. Might even be good to wait for sailing to get at least one on a different landmass?

 

[SittinDown]

Are there reasons for waiting to get onto a different landmass other than overseas trade routes?

 

[SittinDown]

Who is up for the PPP?
How many turns do we want to do to start with, since early scouting should have a big impact on decisions?
Where should the capital go?

Was thinking a bit about where to scout early on:

• Giving each Settler a letter designation might be helpful for talking about what to do with them.
• Land north of Sheep looks like water. Land East of Rice looks like water too.
  • Notice the long river. Settling A on the river + settling E on the river can get a Turn-0 trade route. (Or do we need sailing for that?).
  • Food is scarce - zero green tiles. I suspect we won't find much better land anywhere nearby.
  • Whips are going to be less valuable - mines and chops are going to have to come into play a bit.

Spoiler Image :

 

[Deckhand]

Are there reasons for waiting to get onto a different landmass other than overseas trade routes?

There may be very attractive city locations that were worth waiting for;
also there may be civilization(s) that we can't reach without building units over there, how that impacts us depends on our victory condition.

Spoiler For Example :

Our land mass
===ocean===
another land mass
===more ocean===
civ that can't be reached (without building a city on south coast of another land mass)

note, this isn't civV or VI where all units can swim


or what if we start in middle of donut (or wheel) map and there is a ring of land around us followed by another ring of water

as in botm169

 

[Deckhand]

Who is up for the PPP?
How many turns do we want to do to start with, since early scouting should have a big impact on decisions?

I nominate either SittinDown (taking most initiative atm) or Zhary (more available sooner than later) for first PPP.

Whoever, should save game and upload save at start of turn 1. In past sgotm's some players were able to glean a Lot of information about the other civs from the demographics. Probably, upload images from scouting before we settle first city.

 

[Zhary]

Great I feared there for a moment that this would be a 2 player team.
We should do the scouting settle move fast, to get a clearer picture of the starting area,. But since some teams had a 1 turn save upload rather fast I don't expect it to be much of a game changer.
Because of the poor economy of the starting area I think it is better to have the slow settle aproach here.

After playing around a bit for a start tactics may I suggest we do a "alpha beeline suicide" strategy here. The start techs woild be
Ah->writing->alpha
In the test game this is a good tactic ie if we meet 3-4 civs that will trade techs and there is only 1 more good city spot preferable with camp/past improvements. Ah for first tech is anyway a good choice with the cow and sheep so we will see in 15-20 turns if these conditions are met.