SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Paul#42]

Looking at the save and thinking about corrupt towns I would like to do some major changes I would like to discuss with the team before.

I'd like to change some of those buildings to the north with some waste of shields.
I won't build temples (Bursa, Istanbul, Helsinki) to get a single fish or whale which means we gain one single fpt. I'd change those to settlers.
I would cancel aqueduct builds in corrupt towns as I would keep them to size 6.
I would rush some settlers from size 6 and 7 cities to get them back to growing size.
This would result in 14 settlers being built next turn. This would result in a small loss of beakers which will be more than compensated by the growth and new towns in 1-2 turns so refing in 5 turns is still possible.

I'd like to stop corrupt cities from growing past size 6 because:
- every further growing needs double food - I'd rather let more smaller cities work
- we will need settlers and workers from them
- two small towns grow twice as fast as one city - bringing us to needed beakers faster.

Is this okay with the team? If no strong objections occur, I will play tomorrow or Monday.

 

[Paul#42]

Our roadmap to Modern Times:
# tech - beakers - turns - bpt - additional beakers (1000 AD: 632)
1 Refining - 4266 - 5 - 854 - +222
2 Combustion - 4266 - 5 - 854 - +222
3 Scientific Method - 2666 - 4 - 667 - + 35
4 Atomic Theory - 5333 - 6 - 889 - +257
5 Electronics - 4800 - 5 - 960 - +328
6 Mass Production - 3733 - 4 - 934 - +302
7 Motorized Transport - 3733 - 4 - 934 - +302

turns to Modern Times: 33.
turns to Hoover(800): 25 ==> spt>=32 (Stavanger)
turns to ToE(600): 33 ==> spt>=19
turns to Internet(1000): 33 ==> spt>=31 (Channel City)

EDIT: Forgot Radio That one is really nasty...
EDIT: Forget about Radio. I was playing Gotm50

 

[Paul#42]

I made a little dotmap for Spain.
Pink dot is my choice for our capital, blue dots already exist.

Please discuss as I would send over settlers soon.

EDIT: added letters to identify dots

 

[TimBentley]

EDIT: Forgot Radio That one is really nasty...

Luckily we don't have to research it anymore.

 

[Paul#42]

Luckily we don't have to research it anymore.

Don't we? Did I miss something?
EDIT: Ah, I see... No radio in C3C. That difference escaped me...

No comments on dots & other stuff? Or are you guys relaxing from a tough weekend?

 

[jeffelammar]

My gut reaction to the dot map is that it would be a great one if we were still in the Middle Ages. Given where we are, I'd prefer to space out a little wider. I'd like to see us build some nice metropolises over there rather than a bunch of small cities.

 

[Paul#42]

My gut reaction to the dot map is that it would be a great one if we were still in the Middle Ages. Given where we are, I'd prefer to space out a little wider. I'd like to see us build some nice metropolises over there rather than a bunch of small cities.

Okay. What do the others say? I'm not too used to create Modern Times Cities...

But our capital should be right in the middle, right? So I'll cancel some of those crowded sites.

More comments?

 

[denyd]

In general you'd like each city to have at least 8 food producing sites, so coastal cities can be somewhat closer. Cities with hills and mountains need more tiles to get about size 12. What's probably most important is settling with fresh water available as we'll be rushing most of the infrastructure here for quite awhile and there's no need to add an aqueduct to the list of needed improvements. As for packing the current homeland, it's ok but not too dense of a pack job. It's important that each city have as much commerce as possible. We could use a couple of those settlers to boost the new cities in Spain.

How much is left of Spain? How are the Celts doing against America? Will there be anything left for us?

Nice work getting 400gpt from the Celts. That does however add a couple of complications to our plans. First by paying us that much, Brennus will not have much left for his own research and second with him paying most of his gpt to us he might be more likely to backstab us once America is toast. With our military tied up in Spain, we have to be careful Brennus doesn't get any ideas about acquiring our homeland.

 

[CKS]

The corrupt city plan is fine with me.

As for the dot map, I have no strong feelings. I'd just as soon build fairly tightly as we'll want to maximize scientists at first and it will be very corrupt. After we move our palace over there, we'll be in wait-for-Ghandi mode, and it won't matter a whole lot what we do. The rest of the world should be pacified, and all we have to do is convince Ghandi to build a space ship. On the other hand, a wider build is just fine, too.

I think the pink dot is a fine spot for the capital.

 

[denyd]

Just another thought. If we happen to get a leader while beating on what's left of Spain, how about saving him to move our palace once we're ready to let Gandhi out. We'd be in better shape to select our capital choice and we'd be less likely to have Gandhi raze any of our existing cities. (distance from capital is an equation in the flip calculation that is used to determine keep vs raze)

 

[Jove]

No comments on dots & other stuff? Or are you guys relaxing from a tough weekend?

heh, go Broncos

I'm with Jeffelamar when it comes to city spacing. We have so much power now that we really might as well count on size=12 cities. I'm pretty much scratching Sanitation off the list.

What to do with the corrupt cities we do build is a little knotty. I like to look at them in priority fashion:
Cities with floodplains and granaries, or that otherwise grow in 1 or 2, are high priority for eternal worker rushing. Settlers if we're in a pure pop-stuffing phase.

Corrupt cities with fresh water and some grass, but not super-food sites, are priority to stuff up to size 12 immediately and begin building improvements in.

Cities with fresh water but somehow limited in food (say half grass, half tundra) are priority for drafting. The point is, they can grow to size=7 easily (or have a worker joined), but not much farther. Draft 'em down to 6, send the infantry into one of our size=12 cities, and disband him for 20 shields towards a courthouse, library, university, or police station. 1 corrupt town fully developed will take ~440 shields. That's about 20 disbanded infantry. I'd start with a goal of 30 fully developed size 12 cities, so that'd be 600 disbanded infantry in the next 30 turns. But, see below...

Cities that don't have potential to grow large now and don't have fresh water, sure, rush a few settlers until we have enough, then a few workers until there's noplace else for size=12 cities, then rush all the improvements there.

Ok, we'll definitely go nutz micromanaging this map. To get all the improvements we want with less disbanding, intensive forestry is the answer. Say we build 8 stacks of workers that can plant, chop, and re-irrigate a tile in a single turn. Send those stacks in an orderly fashion though zones where we want size=12 cities, and just soak up the shields. It's 80spt, it's kinda scattered, and you can only do it once, but it's a lotta shields. I like to just block off an area, start in one corner, and just do forestry in rows of tiles. A pattern like this makes it possible to get full coverage, plus it is easy to communicate so team members can pick up where you left off.

So, all that being said, it looks like something like 300bpt will suffice for 4 turn research until the Modern Age. Getting those 300bpt now is the ASAP priority over everything else I've said. (If you even believe me...)


And besides all that, we might as well build some knights in those cities with factories. No matter how many rifles Brennus has, there's still going to be plenty of AA units. I'd like to see cheaper units account for the sheer numbers our military will need.
And, if we get a leader, I say another army or Wall Street. Surely we can get more than 1 leader from here.

 

[Paul#42]

Cities with floodplains and granaries, or that otherwise grow in 1 or 2, are high priority for eternal worker rushing. Settlers if we're in a pure pop-stuffing phase.
[...]
rush all the improvements there.

That's the kind of input I was hoping for. Quite a plan.

Ok, we'll definitely go nutz micromanaging this map. To get all the improvements we want with less disbanding, intensive forestry is the answer. [...] I like to just block off an area, start in one corner, and just do forestry in rows of tiles. A pattern like this makes it possible to get full coverage, plus it is easy to communicate so team members can pick up where you left off.

I will have a look at forestry techniques soon because I think we need a more sophisticated plan there. There might be cities who need shields more urgent so I would like to focus on a city-related system, like a clockwise plan with noting the chop-# in the city name. (I guess this would add another difficulty level in itself )

So, all that being said, it looks like something like 300bpt will suffice for 4 turn research until the Modern Age. Getting those 300bpt now is the ASAP priority over everything else I've said. (If you even believe me...)

So You encourage me to get Stockholm to size 12, finally? It's hard for me to see this city trying to build an Iron Works in 48 turns...

And besides all that, we might as well build some knights in those cities with factories. No matter how many rifles Brennus has, there's still going to be plenty of AA units. I'd like to see cheaper units account for the sheer numbers our military will need.
And, if we get a leader, I say another army or Wall Street. Surely we can get more than 1 leader from here.

As Wallstreet should be rushed in former Spain this might be a good point. regarding our capital I would direct Gandhi to take it as second city after Channel City so we'd move our Palace quite planned. He should raze neither of those two cities.

Brennus will have killed America quite soon as America has no rifles yet. I guess our declaration was a little to early...

 

[Jove]

Brennus will have killed America quite soon as America has no rifles yet. I guess our declaration was a little to early...

It isn't bad from a science standpoint. Less civs apparently means a faster science rate. I'd like to see the end of Spain by the time we learn the next tech. I'm very curious to see how much a difference it makes!

Stavanger size 12? Well okay I guess... the super worker pumping there was for, like, 50 turns ago. In fact, since we're only about 300bpt from ruling the IA, we could suffer some large sacrifices now. I really need to look at the save... I'll check back...

 

[Paul#42]

For forestry operations I would like to suggest the following system:
For each city that needs some shields (don't waste too many!) we could lumber its tiles circling clockwise around the CC. The order should be similar to the order in which tiles are searched for a city to look where a chop goes to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1922944&postcount=49

We could add to the city name the single number / letter of the last tile worked. Inner Ring gets numbers 1-8, outer ring letters a-l.
Tiles belonging to more than one city have to be noted on every city's name (unless they are on ring 1 in one city and on ring 2 of all others). They can be added after the first counter, devided by a slash (that should not happen too often).

Check out this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=32469 on forestry operations.

Is that intuitional to everyone & applicable or is it too scientific?

 

[Jove]

Well, I go by a different system, but if you really want to be serious about forestry, your system gives me an idea. The weakness in my method is that tiles that have already been forested aren't detected, and worker moves are wasted. If you have time, check an early map and compare it to now, looking for places that had forests in the past but don't anymore. City by city, change the names of the cities to reflect tiles that have already been forested. It'll be that much more efficient.

But, if this system is going to make people crazy, here's an alternative system. The numbers are the order in which the tiles are chopped, the arrows are the direction of the chopping. The blue lines delineate the area, so you can declare either that it's done or what's our progress. I always say to hell with where the shields are going, it's alot of shields no matter what. You can see how the two methods could be used together though

 

[Jove]

On getting +300bpt: Birka, Tromoso, Alesund, Bodo, Batsfjord, Hovd, that's just 6 productive cities where, with the right infrastructure, we could add 33 productive citizens in only a couple turns. I think productive areas are obviously best first candidates for stuffing to size=12.
Edit: Of course that commits us to spending a lot on worker spamming to keep our worker levels up. I'd argue that while there still exist productive areas to stuff, it's more efficient than disbanding (and we don't have nationalism yet...Refining + Steel should get it) or buying in corrupt areas.

 

[Paul#42]

If you have time, check an early map and compare it to now, looking for places that had forests in the past but don't anymore.

Problem will be that you don't have to just check one map but many more as we developed our map stepwise + we don't have any clues to chops our rivals did.

I always say to hell with where the shields are going, it's alot of shields no matter what. You can see how the two methods could be used together though

If we want to be serious with forestry we cannot waste so many shields + we should concentrate to supply cities with current demands. With your system we would even chop tiles outside our cultural borders (slightly exaggerated ). I'd think that would spoil too much of our effort.

Are the others also so excited to do some forestry as we two newbies are?

 

[Paul#42]

@jeffelamar: I'll do the spoiler if no one else wants to. Anyone?

I forgot to comment on this: I don't want to write the spoiler and I would appreciate if you did that.

 

[TimBentley]

CivAssist 2 makes it easy to see what tiles haven't had a chop yet.

 

[Paul#42]

CivAssist 2 makes it easy to see what tiles haven't had a chop yet.

Oh great! I heard a rumor about that feature but thought it was not implemented yet. I'll check that out. Anybody here not working with CivAssist 2?