Could we insert another town between Washington and Boston? It would get us Saltpeter and Oil which would be nice if we could deny it from Celts (as I figure we will be at war with them most of the time to keep them from attacking India)
SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Drafting at 7 can work, but I prefer to draft at 12. You wait till the food basket is full (or will fill this turn), then you draft 1. You end up with a free infantry and the city grows back to 12 the very next turn.Paul#42 said:
Unhappiness is something to watch. It can build up if you draft too much, and we don't have many marketplaces to multiply our luxes.
We could probably get another town in there, but I think a higher priority is to build several infantry in the core and get them into the cities we have over there. If Brennus gets feisty, we will lose those cities.
denyd
Emperor
In looking at the map, I think San Francisco might make a very nice final home for Brennus. You know all about those Celts and their sheep 
Ok, I've got it and will start it tonight. I may need until tomorrow night to finish as I expect to spend a lot of time MM'ing the land. I'd like to have AT complete and be started on Electronics during my set. After that it's just Mass Production and Motor Trans to the Modern Age. I'd like to wait a while to gift that city to the Celts. We might even consider founding a city next door to Channel City to expedite his taking of the Great Library ASAP.
Ok, I've got it and will start it tonight. I may need until tomorrow night to finish as I expect to spend a lot of time MM'ing the land. I'd like to have AT complete and be started on Electronics during my set. After that it's just Mass Production and Motor Trans to the Modern Age. I'd like to wait a while to gift that city to the Celts. We might even consider founding a city next door to Channel City to expedite his taking of the Great Library ASAP.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
1. You should be able to get AT in your turns. It may require deficit spending. There are probably a bunch of scientists that can be changed to tax men or other things. I think that I currently have configured an overrun on AT (As insurance against strange things).
2. We also still need Flight, but we are hoping that Brennus is working that angle for us right now.
3. Our Infantry army is still in spain. Probably would be a good idea to take him down to the Celtic continent, but don't keep it in a city. If war broke out the celts would demolish it.
4. I think we can force proper timing of the Channel City capture just by giving them Aarhus early enough that they have some forces, and then keeping troops in all the close by cities but Channel City. The AI can't resist an open city.
2. We also still need Flight, but we are hoping that Brennus is working that angle for us right now.
3. Our Infantry army is still in spain. Probably would be a good idea to take him down to the Celtic continent, but don't keep it in a city. If war broke out the celts would demolish it.
4. I think we can force proper timing of the Channel City capture just by giving them Aarhus early enough that they have some forces, and then keeping troops in all the close by cities but Channel City. The AI can't resist an open city.
I am a little concerned about razing, as we have enormously more culture that India does, and that is, in my experience, when the AI razes a lot. Because of this, I'd like to jump our palace to the new lands before they take channel city, either by using a leader to build the palace or by having Ghandi take Trondheim first and making sure that the palace jumps to old Spain.
Jeff, did we make a combustion/communism trade? Nice job on getting us down to 5 turns for atomic theory.
I'm in favor of trying to trade luxes for cash. Let's suck as much money out of the Celts as possible, while still getting them to learn flight for us.
Once we are ready to let India start taking cities, we should put all our money into taxes, so that we have lots of money for India to take with the cities. For a while, it will be a direct way to give them money so we should take advantage of it.
Jeff, did we make a combustion/communism trade? Nice job on getting us down to 5 turns for atomic theory.
I'm in favor of trying to trade luxes for cash. Let's suck as much money out of the Celts as possible, while still getting them to learn flight for us.
Once we are ready to let India start taking cities, we should put all our money into taxes, so that we have lots of money for India to take with the cities. For a while, it will be a direct way to give them money so we should take advantage of it.
denyd
Emperor
The other option is to gift cash to a remaining AI and let them buy techs from India. Example: Let's assume we use the Ottomans for the elevator with India. That means the the Vikings, Ottomans & Indians are now tech equals. Then we kill off the Ottomans and introduce the Indians to the Celts. If we give Brennus 1000g, he will give it to the Indians for a tech he doesn't have. Hopefully India will use the gold to further their space program.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Ok, I can't say as I've ever lost cities when I had this much of a cultural lead, so this concern has more validity than I previously mentioned. Letting Ghandi have Trondheim first is fine with me. We just have to make sure that we move 20 or so troops into our desired new capitol on that turn to force the proper jump.CKS said:
Yes. I traded 3 luxes + combustion for communism, so hopefully he is busilly researching Flight for us.CKS said:
I agree completely.CKS said:
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Now that I go back and look, I realize I failed to paste my whole report into the windowCKS said:
Here was the text that I had for the beginning of the turn.
denyd
Emperor
I ended up spending my available time tonight getting CivAssist II installed and it looks like a neat tool. I envision lots of nights of flipping back an forth to it during forrestry operations. It will probably take a while to wean me off of Map Stat.
A couple of items for discussion:
1. Let's get Military Tradition from the Celts in our next tech deal if it can be done without too much cost. I'd like to get the Military Academy built in Stockholm and pump out 6-7 empty armies to be filled by Modern Armor in the future. We could have either Trondheim or Channel City sneak in the Pentagon at some point.
2. Once we hit the limit on armies, we can disband the existing ones for 100 shields each. I'd like to have just Modern Armor Armies (the max possible) when we are ready for Celtic war. MA Armies are truly awesome in C3C attacking at an astounding 48 with a 24 defense and 4 moves, they can pillage and destroy enemy units almost at will.
3. We are probably going be expierencing a period of peace for a while (I hope) as it doesn't make sense to attack the Celts yet and hopefully (I forgot to look) we are stronger than them at this point. I'd like to phase out all of the obsolete troops (non Infantry & Tank) as unit strength permits. Having a couple of Infantry in each Celtic island city plus 4 or 5 on the Spanish island and another 6 on the home island should be fine for defense once we'll be able to upgrade them to Mech Inf. The balance of our forces should be Tanks awaiting a chance to become Modern Armor.
4. We're probably going to have 50+ turns of waiting once we let India out before he begins to truly expand on our island. During that period, I'd like to prepare for our Celtic assimilation.
I expect to get these turns I tomorrow (actually later today).
A couple of items for discussion:
1. Let's get Military Tradition from the Celts in our next tech deal if it can be done without too much cost. I'd like to get the Military Academy built in Stockholm and pump out 6-7 empty armies to be filled by Modern Armor in the future. We could have either Trondheim or Channel City sneak in the Pentagon at some point.
2. Once we hit the limit on armies, we can disband the existing ones for 100 shields each. I'd like to have just Modern Armor Armies (the max possible) when we are ready for Celtic war. MA Armies are truly awesome in C3C attacking at an astounding 48 with a 24 defense and 4 moves, they can pillage and destroy enemy units almost at will.
3. We are probably going be expierencing a period of peace for a while (I hope) as it doesn't make sense to attack the Celts yet and hopefully (I forgot to look) we are stronger than them at this point. I'd like to phase out all of the obsolete troops (non Infantry & Tank) as unit strength permits. Having a couple of Infantry in each Celtic island city plus 4 or 5 on the Spanish island and another 6 on the home island should be fine for defense once we'll be able to upgrade them to Mech Inf. The balance of our forces should be Tanks awaiting a chance to become Modern Armor.
4. We're probably going to have 50+ turns of waiting once we let India out before he begins to truly expand on our island. During that period, I'd like to prepare for our Celtic assimilation.
I expect to get these turns I tomorrow (actually later today).
Gandhi razing cities
I'd not make him capture Trondheim before Channel City as it would lose all its Improvements. For the same reason I would not build a bank in Aarhus because it will be quite shortlived(?), being gifted to Gandhi in ~10 turns. Rather get more knights there.
Drafting
At those cities that can grow in 1 turn, drafting at size 7 is more effective (every vs. every second turn). Plus if we are lucky with the algorithm we encounter no unhappiness in a town.
Celts
Why gift a city to them? It will take us quite a while before we can invade them seriously, I'd rather like a phony war to keep them from attacking India and keep them buying techs (not military which they could if they feel threatened or lux if they get war weariness). We even cannot raze their resources if we need them to trade some to Gandhi.
So if they don't attack us earlier I would want to attack them not before our capital is moved to Spain (i.e. Gandhi is out of the cage).
EDIT: That means: Our first chance to create a MGL is when we rip Osman.
I'd not make him capture Trondheim before Channel City as it would lose all its Improvements. For the same reason I would not build a bank in Aarhus because it will be quite shortlived(?), being gifted to Gandhi in ~10 turns. Rather get more knights there.
Drafting
At those cities that can grow in 1 turn, drafting at size 7 is more effective (every vs. every second turn). Plus if we are lucky with the algorithm we encounter no unhappiness in a town.
Celts
Why gift a city to them? It will take us quite a while before we can invade them seriously, I'd rather like a phony war to keep them from attacking India and keep them buying techs (not military which they could if they feel threatened or lux if they get war weariness). We even cannot raze their resources if we need them to trade some to Gandhi.
So if they don't attack us earlier I would want to attack them not before our capital is moved to Spain (i.e. Gandhi is out of the cage).
EDIT: That means: Our first chance to create a MGL is when we rip Osman.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
1. If I recall correctly, the Celts don't have MT, so we can't trade for it. (Unless they got it on our last turn)
2. I love the idea of building a few MA armies if we can get the tech without researching it ourselves.
3. We are currently way below our supportable max in troops. I'd be tempted to keep most of the upgradable obsoletes. Also, I'd like 5-6 infantry per Celtic Island city. The celts will have lots of Knights (cavs if they research MT) and they can overrun infantry.
4. As soon as we learn how to make tanks, we need to crank them out ASAP. We will want at least 40 of them for our ROP abuse against the Celts. (6-7 per core city). The upgrade of Tank -> Modern Armor is pretty cheap anyway.
2. I love the idea of building a few MA armies if we can get the tech without researching it ourselves.
3. We are currently way below our supportable max in troops. I'd be tempted to keep most of the upgradable obsoletes. Also, I'd like 5-6 infantry per Celtic Island city. The celts will have lots of Knights (cavs if they research MT) and they can overrun infantry.
4. As soon as we learn how to make tanks, we need to crank them out ASAP. We will want at least 40 of them for our ROP abuse against the Celts. (6-7 per core city). The upgrade of Tank -> Modern Armor is pretty cheap anyway.
It'd be nice if we could convince the Celts that they should learn MT for us right after they teach us flight. Somehow I don't think "Hey, we'd like to be able to build lots of armies to overrun you in a few years, will you teach us how to build them?" will be a convincing argument, though. We will have quite a while for them to learn it, so I expect we can get it at some point.
I'm for phasing out obsolete units when we hit our support limit, but not until that point. They might as well be sitting around providing cheap MPs or being available to attack any obsolete units we run into when at war until they start costing us money.
I'm definitely in agreement about cranking out tanks for our Celtic invasion. It should be short and sweet.
I'm for phasing out obsolete units when we hit our support limit, but not until that point. They might as well be sitting around providing cheap MPs or being available to attack any obsolete units we run into when at war until they start costing us money.
I'm definitely in agreement about cranking out tanks for our Celtic invasion. It should be short and sweet.
denyd
Emperor
If I read Civ Assist II correctly, they have MT right now, so it's likely that they just started research on Flight.
An obsolete army in 100 shields, so if we end up having to build our new palace in Spain, a couple of those would speed up production.
An obsolete army in 100 shields, so if we end up having to build our new palace in Spain, a couple of those would speed up production.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
You probably are reading it right, as I mentioned in my log, I forgot to check trade options before saving my handover save. That means they just got MT this turn.denyd said:
Paul#42 said:
Ok, y'know, I never got this side of the argument. Lacking Requisite Tech = destroyed improvements. That really does put us in a pickle because, as denyd points out, it could take Ghandi ~50 turns before his military machine starts taking a lot of ground.
So, is there a compromise position on this? Because of those ~50 turns, I'm still very drawn to the idea of allowing Ghandi some additional early-MA cities in which to build at least Chariots, if nothing else. That way, when we're truly ready to hand it all over to him, he's truly ready to take it.
Drafting- I tend to divide cities into drafters and max-outs. The drafters pop conscripts every turn or two at size 7 to build improvements in the max-outs. So for me, 'max population' would be size=12 cities everywhere we're not drafting. The unhappiness tends to stay only in the cities you're drafting from, and isn't such a problem at size 6. In fact, with as much lux as we have, it can be profitable to build a market to 'refresh' the happiness in draft cities. In the long run you get out more shields than you put in.
When we're really done with forestry, we have the option of joining workers and drafting like crazy. We might make an exception and draft anywhere during the worker joining phase. If we had 150 workers all turned into infantry and disbanded (or skimmed for extra military heft), you can imagine the boost.
Military- I'd rather not eliminate all of our obsolete units, although I admit disbanding them can yield a lot of shields. As jeffelammar points out, we can certainly afford them, for one. For another, fighting a foe like the Celts will require some sheer numbers, even if the units aren't so strong. Decoys, pillaging tiles, capturing workers, quelling resistance, MP's in draft cities, killing AA or redlined units (or cavalry!)... 'obsolete' is a little relative.
CivAssistII: There's a feature that calculates where the palace will go if the current one is lost. Pretty much eliminates the guesswork.
TimBentley
Deity
When a city is given to another civilization, all noncultural buildings are kept, regardless of technology level. It is also possible for them to keep buildings they can't build yet in captured cities. The English were still in the ancient age when their modern armor captured my cities, and they still had factories or manufacturing plants or stuff like that (debug game).
Maybe we direct his forces to some cities in corrupt area and let him take them. This would definitely increase his unit output. However do not let him touch Osman because they are at warJove said:
Isn't that an exploit? Joining workers to draft them as units immediately? I sense this technique might be disallowed. Please check before applying.Jove said:
Are you sure you can rush a Palace with armies?denyd said:
Wow!!TimBentley said:
Now that's surprising. That might change my/our strategy. Great you found that out! 
Maybe Trondheim should be captured earlier to move our Palace. But I fear our research will drop heavily then... 
Does a backward civ take advantage from these improvements?
Do they tend to sell them?
I admit I would feel slightly better if the ancient English were not invading with Modern Armor
denyd
Emperor
Just a quick update - 1 turn done and all buy MM done in turn 2 - So far lots of planting, chopping & mining/irrigating. Only real news is Celts completed Universal Suffrage and I need to decide what to do with Stavanger. There will probably be a lot of wasted shields for a very expensive Stock Exchange. I probably can trade for MT and put the Military Academy there, but I'm not sure what I'll have to give up.
If we can get military tradition for a reasonable price (that is, anything that doesn't slow down our research, allow the Celts to build ToE, or cause the Celts to not research flight for us), then I'm in favor of the trade and working on the military academy. Stavanger is our Hoover prebuild, right? Can we switch around our other prebuilds - the palace and ToE - to let Stavanger keep building? We need less than 10 turns of leeway and Trondheim just started on ToE.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Yes, Stav was for Hoover. We may be able to switch things around, but without the save I can't tell for sure. Trondheim could probably use a coal plant or something as a place holder.CKS said:
If not, then getting the military academy seems like a reasonable last choice, but I don't see us getting MT without trading electricity which we do not want to do.
Could we do something like this
Trond -> Coal (or Stock)
Channel -> ToE
Stav -> Palace
We only need Trond to be on a lesser prebuild for 5-6 turns.
Another option if we trade for MT (if we can), would be to do what I said above, but put Trond on Military Academy.
That way all our carefully timed Modern Age cascade would be safe.
