SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[pindicator]

950AD save

EDIT: Apologies, copying from Notepad has never given me problems like this, but it's all garbled and I am too lazy to change all the carridge returns

Here's the complete 10-turn report:

Pre-Turn

In the floodplain zone, I rush a couple workers to time growth and create a couple of taxmen

in spots where food would be wasted.

Oh, Barcelona isn't the wonder town! No need to keep it then. I sell a Marketplace in it for
25g, and put all the troops on the boat. I think we'll recapture-raze rather than abandon.

*Later Note: Stupid move, I missed the spot where Jove said we wanted to keep the town.

IBT-

Spanish recapture Barcelona
Replaceable Parts learned
Rioting in Reykjavik

1) 860AD
We have two rubbers. One NW of Batsfjord, one SW of Aarhus in our core. Oh, there's a third

on our eastern island by Farsund as well.
Science to 100%
Huh, Reykjavik is fine... funny.

Set research to Industrialization. Wasn't sure if we wanted Sci Theory immediately, but my

thinking is that Factories will help us better sooner than later.

Vet 'zerk kills spear in Barcelona, -2hp and promotes
Vet 'zerk kills archer in Barcelona, -1hp
'Zerk army kills LB in Barcelona, -2hp
Re-capture Barcelona.

Elite* 'zerk kills spear north of Barcelona, -1hp
Cannon hits -1 on a Spanish sword

IBT-

Archer attacks our army anyway! But still, we should hold with all they have.
Archer loses, -2hp to army
An ARCHER kills our 8-9hp ARMY! Now we need military immediately up north.
Lose another 'zerk, but we kill 2 archers, a horseman, and 2 swords, the majority of spain's
offensive troops.


2) 870AD

Okay, some good points there. The MGL is getting shipped into an infantry army. Infantry

will be rushed, since that's a tad more important than workers for a turn or two. And as far

as Spanish horses are concerned, the only visible horse near Spain is outside their borders;

however, I cannot trade them horses so I can only assume somebody is sending them in.

I send the MGL to our homeland and build the army. Why? To free up elite attacks and because
the needed infantry for the army are still a turn away.

Spanish Landing:
Vet horse loses to Spanish horse, -3hp taken off
Vet musket kills warrior, -2hp
Elite warrior causes horse to retreat
Elite knight kills spanish knight
Reg warrior kills spanish horse, -1 hp and promotes

Short-rush 3 infantry: use Artillery (80shields) for 10spt towns and Knights (70shields) for

20spt towns.
Rush a few workers, like 1 or 2.

Spanish mainland:
4/5 zerk kills fortified spear, -3hp
3/4 zerk kills sword

IBT-
Spain only pillages up north; they are about spent up there

3) 880AD
Three infantry and an army load the Pinta and through the convenience of modern physics,

"tunnel" to appear in Spain (a la ship "tunneling").

Elite zerk kills spear, -1hp
3/4 zerk kills spear, promotes
Elite* zerk loses to spear, no dmg dealt and I hate the rng again


4) 890AD
Celts have Nationalism

5) 900AD
Elte zerk kills sword, -3hp
Army kills pike, -4hp and promotes

IBT-
Our army in the field knocks a point off a passing LB and redlines a passing horse

We learn Industrialization; Sci Meth is in 4
Spanish LB redlines our zerk then dies

6) 910AD
Swap research over to Corporation (due in 4). 100% for as long as I can.
Factories ordered for most of the core cities.
Send a shipment for a second town at New Spain, an odd combo: knight, settler, guerilla, and

infantry. Won't settle the town as of yet, but i want the settler in the vicinity for when we

do want it.

7) 920AD
It's nice to know we dont' have to worry about India getting past Education: they don't even

have Map Making yet, according to CivAssistII!

Stockholm is set on 2-turn workers at size 3.

8) 930AD
Second Celt deal expires, and we are now 86g with -102gpt deficit.
HOWEVER, I have run enough science early on that I can just put the slider to 70% sci and keep

2 turns to Corporation. So no need to worry about trading until my turnset is over.

Deciding to put the settler on the southern tip of Spain so we can use less ships to do our

chaining. He will arrive there at 950 and I'll leave him unmoved in case we have a better

location in mind.

10)950AD
Learn Corporation
I'm setting us on Steel, but we are going to need to adjust our science rate among other

things before we settle in on a tech to go for next.

A little Spanish action:
kill a spear with our vet knight, -2hp

'zerks unload on Valencia via boat:
elite zerk kills reg pike, -3hp
elite zerk dies after redlining reg pike
4/5 zerk kills pike and burns Valencia
We net 2 slaves and don't see any spanish units in range to attack our zerk. Next turn its

back on the boat!




Seen only a trickle of Spanish units. We may not get much to fish for leaders with.
Tromso can be a productive city. Currently it is maxed on production so it can finish its

aquaduct faster; be sure to get some workers to let it grow in a bit. Been developing other

cities on that side to get a few more shields; but if we want them to go back to max food for

specialists instead, it's a quick fix and we have plenty of workers.

We can afford to merge some workers now if we must, but I'd like to save them for our new

core. I've swapped some towns over to settler production, but not many.

Didn't MM towns this turn. Sorry, but it's a lot of time to go through them all every turn.

We just researched corporation this turn, so the next tech has zero beakers invested. We probably need to sell Industrialization to the Celts tho.

Settler is unmoved on the location I thought best for a town. It still leaves the eventual Spanish Iron Works town open after we taken Madrid and it gives us the quickest sea-shipping line from our home base.

 

[jeffelammar]

I just PMed AlanH. Hopefully the file will be patched and we can continue.

BTW - Things sound good. Losing the army stunk, but these things happen.

 

[CKS]

I'm with Denyd on selling something to the Celts to let us keep researching at max. I'd like to lead them away from Scientific Method as much as possible, but otherwise I don't really care what they do. I expect they are working on Communism now and will continue to do so for some time, especially if we can keep sucking up a lot of their gold, and that is fine with me.

I'd research up toward Combustion now. Do we want to gift the Celts up to try to get them to research flight for us while we go up the lower branch?

 

[AlanH]

Your modded save is at:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Jeffelammar_SG009_AD0950_02.SAV

 

[Paul#42]

All right, let's go!

Roster
Jove
pindicator <== just played
TimBentley <== up
Paul#42 <== on deck
CKS
denyd
jeffelammar

Do Americans and Celts have a rop? Maybe we could hide in Celts' country, use their roads and easily some American units to fish for leaders? As soon as Spain is done of course...

(I just fear to have no aim left for my turnset)

 

[Jove]

Wow. Pretty exciting really. We're exerting enough power to change this whole world!
Our science rate must have improved for us to have learnt 2 techs during pindicator's turnset
Spain: y'know, I was a little peeved denyd didn't leave me a mustket to land in Spain. I certainly had enough time to do something about it! Sorry I didn't leave you with better defense. Looks like you corrected this problem.
It sounds like you feel there isn't a surplus of workers. Sounds like you certainly built plenty though. Money is tight right now, but I think we want to keep focusing on lots of workers.

I like CKS's science strategy. Brennus probably will stick with Communism, won't he? So we sell him something nice, get Nationalism and all his gold if possible (I haven't examined the save yet...), and keep going at max. Coaxing him into Flight seems clever if we can make it happen, even though it'll make the invasion of Celts more complicated. If we get Nationalism right away, we can start drafting/disbanding riflemen for priority projects.

 

[denyd]

Now that we have RP, we'll be drafting infantry (good=more shields)

Defensive units, who needs any stinkin' defensive units

I don't think Brennus will get another required tech for us. He'll go communisim, espionage and then either fascism or sanitation. With a little luck he might get a Modern Tech for us, but I doubt it. We're probably better off just letting him finance our science while we wipe out Spain & America.

BTW: Nice idea about using a Celt ROP to take on America. I like the idea so much I'll probably us it in COTM 20.

After steel is done it's time for refining (we should have oil somewhere) and then combustion.

 

[Jove]

I don't think Brennus will get another required tech for us. He'll go communisim, espionage and then either fascism or sanitation.

I'm not an expert on this subject, but I think Flight might be pretty attractive to the AI if gifted up to it. Flak is counted as a defender, right? Defenders are valued by the AI. Plus improvements, 2 types of airplane, worker action (airport), trade network... they might go for it. The quesiton is, how long?

Edit: speaking of science, I just did some numbers. We have 9 techs to go in the IA. Right now we're at almost 850bpt (at max), something like a 30% increase in 10 turns! If we can keep up this rate, we'll hit our target of 2000bpt by the modern age.

 

[denyd]

You're correct they'll go for flight in a big way, but I don't see them getting the prior techs unless we gift them to Brennus. Along the path on Industrialization (wonder & improvement) and refining (resource) can compete with Communism, Fascism & Espionage. By the time they get through those three, we'll have another 4-5 techs completed and be so far ahead in techs, they'll never get a chance to get flight for us unless we gift them 3-4 techs.

I'd like to delay the Celts getting Replaceable Parts. Fighting Infantry instead of Riflemen would make those battles a lot more costly.

 

[Jove]

Well, let's say we trade for their gold etc to get them up to Combustion. Flight might be their favorite tech at that point. They don't have to have RP, and we still have 5 other techs to research while they work on it. Could it work?

 

[TimBentley]

I'm back. I got it. I'll read recent discussions more thoroughly and comment later.

Edit: Given their longer than 10-turn research (longer research times tend to make them gravitate towards optional techs), the Celts should go for printing press, democracy, free artistry, sanitation (by the way, there's a 16-point bonus for these two and construction that alexman missed), and military tradition before too long, and be stuck on optional techs until we give them steel and refining. Flight is the third most popular IA tech, after replaceable parts and nationalism, so hopefully it won't take them too long (ie longer than us finishing up the rest) to research it once they can. Keeping electricity from them sounds good.

I'd go for steel, then refining. Hopefully we can get each in 6 turns (forgot about selling industrialization) 5 turns.

 

[pindicator]

What do we say to trying to plant down some more specialist towns in the north of our continent? Our food situation is very good up there, and spots have more tiles than they can use, even around the floodplain I think. Anyway, a few more towns can add up with the specialists, which may have accounted for part of the jump in my turns.

 

[Paul#42]

Edit: Given their longer than 10-turn research (longer research times tend to make them gravitate towards optional techs), the Celts should go for printing press, democracy, free artistry, sanitation (by the way, there's a 16-point bonus for these two and construction that alexman missed), and military tradition before too long, and be stuck on optional techs until we give them steel and refining. Flight is the third most popular IA tech, after replaceable parts and nationalism, so hopefully it won't take them too long (ie longer than us finishing up the rest) to research it once they can. Keeping electricity from them sounds good.

I'd go for steel, then refining. Hopefully we can get each in 6 turns (forgot about selling industrialization) 5 turns.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I forgot about those MA techs they might be quite appealing to AI to research next. I favor researching combustion, than the bottom branch and trade everything to combustion to Celts (in 10-turn-rythm) for all money and techs and .

Now that we have RP, we'll be drafting infantry (good=more shields)

Did I miss something? After Industrialization we got Corporation and Steel IIRC (if I read correctly).
Now it could be:
Refining (5?)
Combustion (5?)
Replacable Parts (6?)
Scientific Method (4)
Atomic Theory (5?)
Electronics (5?) --> Hoover
Mass Production (5?)
Motorized Transport (5?)
Radio (5?)
Advanced Flight (5?)

~30 turns to Hoover.
Still ~50 turns to Modern Times.
After we researched and traded Combustion Brennus should have like 35 turns to complete Flight+ for us. Or does anyone think we can gat more out of him in another way? Any ideas to speed up our journey?

I also favor specializing the north. Work every food-plus tile (settle on "every" food-minus tile) and hire Scientists where possible. Core should produce some more knights to finish Spain and go for America via Celts rop.

Good luck Tim!

 

[Jove]

Did I miss something?

The remarks about infantry were in the context of my comments on acquiring Nationalism from the Celts. Nationalism allows Riflemen, and also permits the draft. Replaceable Parts improves Riflemen to Infantry. Funny to get RP first... Anyway, at Computers we get Mech Inf, which can be disbanded for 27sh IIRC.

Your recap looks good. If we're lucky, all those 5's will turn into 4's, science is tough this time. I don't see a better way to profit off the Celts. Maybe it is possible to set up the Americans for Military Tradition... if they finish it the turn before we destroy them, it'll be worth it.

Ideas to speed up the journey: If we know we're doomed to learn a tech in at best 5 turns, purposefully learn it in 6. Reap the profits, and invest in workers, libraries, police stations, anything that will help science. Every '1 more turn' we gain lasts for the rest of the science phase.

-In 'sacrifice mode', run with as few specialists as possible to maximize population. Later, with lots of cash, we can skim cities for workers and boost pop in newly conquered lands.

-Get ready for the draft

 

[Paul#42]

The remarks about infantry were in the context of my comments on acquiring Nationalism from the Celts. Nationalism allows Riflemen, and also permits the draft. Replaceable Parts improves Riflemen to Infantry. Funny to get RP first... Anyway, at Computers we get Mech Inf, which can be disbanded for 27sh IIRC.

That's what I ment - but we should get Nationalism before RP anyway at least for Steel and Refining. Setting America up for some of those optional MA-techs to spare Celts from going for them might be a good idea...
However it might backfire if - while we are fighting them - they manage to bribe Celts with it against us ... Although the danger should be small.
Mech Infs will be a little late but to shortrush settlers Inf is really great.

Btw I saw that Team Klarius lost *some* land after turn 290. We are turn 200 right now - turn 250 Modern Times and how long to go there? I'm really not into that age... But good to see we keep our culture lead - makes me think we catch up in tech pace also...

I plan to run a little Test game tonight with some backward OCC-Civ and examine how fast they spread in unprotected enemy territory - or did anybody test that already?

 

[denyd]

Pre-Turn
Posted by Pindicator:

Spanish recapture Barcelona
Replaceable Parts learned
Rioting in Reykjavik

According to his turn log we have RP already. We decided that faster workers (RP) was more valuable than factories (Ind).

If we haven't already (it's been a while since I've seen a map) I'd like to irrigate & rail all of the north. That should provide a chunk of potential specialists. With cash becoming an issue, we might consider converting a couple of scientists to civil engineers to complete libraries, harbors or universities. Does anyone know if libs & unis consider the scientist beakers or just the city base?

I agree with finishing off Spain ASAP, but I'm not sure putting shields into knights is better than infantry. A 15spt city would build a knight in 5 or and infantry in 6, but the infantry is a 6 to the knights 4 attack. I realize that the knight can retreat, but the chances of an infrantry winning outright are much greater. Also a wounded infantry can defend himself (def=10) where a wounded knight (def=3) is meat against LB. On top of that Infantry have a future as Mechs, where knights only future is being recycled in libraries.

If we're planning on taking out America anyway, why not declare now and get the Celts to start on him now (we could give a tech as a kicker and maybe sign an ROP). We could then give the Celts something to do with all of those Gallic Swords they've got sitting around. They're also likely to open up a couple spots for us to squeeze in a couple of settlers (and maybe claim a luxury or 2) With America and Spain gone the tech costs might go done to 4-5 turns each.

One other thing that just came to mind. We don't know where aluminum & uranium are yet. Without them Gandhi can't complete a spaceship. But let's worry about that a lot later. For now research, kill Spain and improve our lands.

 

[Jove]

Does anyone know if libs & unis consider the scientist beakers or just the city base?

I've been asking that question for literally years! It seems so simple... Important to know. If the answer is yes, libraries are our priority build. If no, courthouses might be better.

 

[denyd]

I'm heading for the guru on the mountain to ask this question

I'll be back ASAP with the answer.

 

[Paul#42]

According to his turn log we have RP already. We decided that faster workers (RP) was more valuable than factories (Ind).

Sorry I missed that.

If we haven't already (it's been a while since I've seen a map) I'd like to irrigate & rail all of the north. That should provide a chunk of potential specialists. With cash becoming an issue, we might consider converting a couple of scientists to civil engineers to complete libraries, harbors or universities. Does anyone know if libs & unis consider the scientist beakers or just the city base?

It does NOT. beakers from scientists are not multiplied by libs and unis.

On knights vs. Infantery:
I think we will be able to upgrade to cavalry soon and I always rate horses higher then foot units. And while Infs need at least 2-3 turns to approach an enemy city, cavs can attack from outside in the same turn most of the time. Although this advantage may be a minor one if we do a rop-rape.

Looking at the save:
Mining and roading mountains and even hills in corrupt areas (whole north) is completely useless! It does not generate any value neither food nor commerce! It's far more important to irrigate and railroad deserts as they can generate at least some growth (but not one more scientist for the town that works it). Most important imo is to settle those unclaimed areas. I would immediately switch all workers to settlers and make Stockholm a 2-turn-Settler factory. Fauske and Stavanger are wasting two flood plains Stockholm could use. We have 90 workers - that should do the job.
We don't need a courthouse in carthage, no granaries (any more) no temples (at the moment) to get those fishes - we need settlers to use all tiles we can get immediately. Even a harbor (in Iznik) is useless (unless it works fish) as it only provides two food per tile, which in corrupt areas does not support a single beaker but just the citizen that works it.
Remember to just road those tiles we will build towns on.

We could sell Brennus Industrialization for 220g, wool and 189gpt - or get 243gpt without wool. Do we need that 54gpt-wool? Did we have any trouble with riots lately?

 

[denyd]

I have returned from the mountain of knowledge with this nugget:

My question:

When beakers are calculated, if you have a pair of scientists (3 beakers in C3C), are these beakers considered when applying the library, university, Copernicus', etc bounses?

How about commerce when you have a couple of taxmen and a market, bank, etc. ?

The Answer:

It goes like this:

count gold yields from all worked tiles in city radius (raw gold)
subtract lux tax from slider
add 50% if marketplace
add 50% if bank (use net of raw-lux)
add any other boosting structures
Total commerce as seen in F1 for that city
subtract corruption
subtract maintenance
add taxman
subtract research slider
Now you have net net as seen in F1 for that city with any rounding

Edit: Since all we're facing right now is longbows and spears, I'd rather be using infantry, since they'll be able to kill twice the units (1+ defense & 1 attacking) as knights, we'll be getting more promotions (ie more leaders).