SGOTM1-Persia Team X

[mad-bax]

Welcome to your SGOTM1 game thread.


First some procedural stuff.
Although the rules for SGOTM have not been set in stone yet, we will be playing to the rules listed >>HERE<<
Please take the time to read them.

Here is a reminder of your start position


Here are the two saves.

SGOTM1-CivIII1.29f

SGOTM1-PTW1.27f

IMPORTANT REMINDER
The file naming format that you use to pass the game on must be rigidly adhered to in order to prevent games getting mixed up.

Name your save files like this

SGOTM1TEAMNAME-DATE.SAV

For example - SGOTM1STAFF-3000BC.SAV

Later on it may be possible to submit the saved games through the GOTM server for scoring purposes. Alanh will have special requirements for doing this which will be made clear at that time.

Roster

Alanh
leif erikson
mabellino
zamint3
Capt Buttkick

The order shown above is not the order you must play. When you have decided on your order of play I will amend the Roster above.

The first player plays to the end of the 3000BC turn (turn 20)
Everyone else plays 10 turns from there. Please try to stick to this. People finishing on the wrong turn is my biggest headache beleive it or not.

3000BC is turn 20 of course.

 

[zamint3]

Originally posted by AlanH

Hi X-men

I guess we ought to go for a variant bonus. I'd vote AW, as long as there's someone on the team with battleground experience of AW. Choose your weapons, folks!

Hi X-men
AW sounds OK to me, but experience : no!
This is my first SG game and I have never tried OCC, 5CC or AW, plaing the GOTM's have kept me busy.

Originally posted by leif erikson


Greetings fellow Civmates.

I have never tried any of the variants but, in a Regent game, AW sounds like a worthy goal. I always thought that multiple victory conditions would be fun to try, but I'm not that good!! MB's interpretation of RBCiv doesn't sound like it would be too hard to do either.

I just read through the rules and it might just be possible

Multiple victory with AW and no domination. Maybe conquest and Space Ship. I have never tried this before either!

zamint3

 

[AlanH]

I've sent PMs to our silent friends, mabellino and Capt Buttkick, so I hope they'll join us soon. I don't feel we should start with only 60% of the team in place to discuss where we're going.

 

[leif erikson]

I did not play the original game as a GOTM, I started with GOTM 17. However, I visited the GOTM archive located here.
(http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3gotm/civ3gotm_archive.shtml)

It says that the game was Regent, small map, 5 rivals and restless barbs.

It doesn't sound like we have too much experience with special games like AW, #CC, etc. This should be a good learning experience full of original ideas. I look forward to the challenge.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Hi
Signing in, no AW experience for me either.
Reason I'd like to try AW is that I can get regular emperor wins as a builder and I've just started practicing a more proactive approach to the game. I'm a little jaunted though if we don't have AW experience at all in the team. However small map, regent difficulty may be as good a choice for AW as we'll ever get.

As for the start: Looks like we've got a lot of coast so I think we need to move our settler. Maybe move the worker to the BG to see if there are any bonus food available?

We are scientific/industrious which is a very good combo for a quick paced builder game. I'd like to see the other tribes (if someone can confirm that f10 is allowed, I didn't see any mention of it in MB's RBCiv rules) before getting into the debate on what we should research.

Just to get this straight: we're playing vanilla Civ 1.29f, right?

 

[AlanH]

Hi Capt.

No AW experience anywhere then? Well, we can treat is as a learning experience, I guess, or we can think of another option to go for.

I'd still like to have a go at AW. I've been getting more and more aggressive in my recent games, so AW would be a logical next step. How about multiple victory conditions as a target as well? Conquest plus Spaceship? Conquest plus Culture? All three? I'm assuming diplomacy doesn't really mix with AW. This will play to mixed strengths in the team, giving the builders work to do while the warmongers can deal with the conquest. It'll also prolong the game a bit if we're not just going for a fast military victory.

A few other thoughts:

Re the start, we have deer and a BG already. There are several tiles all around that could be coast or they could be desert or flood plain. Moving wouldn't necessarily take us away from coast, and I'm not sure there'd be much to move for. Don't discount worker to deer forest as a first move. We can clear it for 10 shields in a few turns as we're industrious, and if we can find some fresh water nearby we'll have one extra fpt.

Or how about a settler move north to try for an early Colossus after an initial settler? I haven't looked at the save yet, so I don't know where we are on the minimap.

Our starting techs are Bronze and Masonry. Warning: I tend to avoid building defensive units as far as possible, so for me bronze is only a stepping stone to iron. Masonry is usually quite useful for early trading, and I s'pose we could go for the Pyramids once we have a few cities.

For AW we'll need iron and horses as soon as possible. As our UU is early, prioritising chariots/horses will defer our golden age until we have some infrastructure to take advantage of it. I'd be surprised if the Japanese are nearby, so we might want to fast track the Wheel.

In AW, as we are not allowed to remain at peace for one inter-turn and breaking peace deals is a no-no I assume pointy stick research is out? If so I guess we only get to trade for techs on our first meeting with each civ. After that we are on our own. Maybe we need to get to the Great Library as a matter of urgency, either by building it or taking it.

We'd better be playing vanilla as that's why I deserted the Staff PtW team. Otherwise my Mac and I will be looking for another place to hide

 

[zamint3]

Originally posted by AlanH

Re the start, we have deer and a BG already.

That's fur I think.

I would say : move worker to BG, and if there is nothing, settle on the spot.

Research: Maybe we should start with one of the cheaper ones and hope for some luck with the goody huts.

Contacts : I really don't know, should we go for early contacts/war or should we try and delay it for as long as possible.

Warfare: Lets make lots of archers early on and try to eliminate our nearest neighbor(s). I agree, we don't want the golden age to soon.

It all depends on our neighbors, should we ask if F10 is allowed?

I haven't played vanilla for a long time, but its not much different from PTW or?

Are we playing the roster as it stands? Surely the X-man himself should start

 

[mad-bax]

F10 is allowed.

I wonder if Alanh looks like Xerses leaderhead.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Thanks for the clarification mad
I'd say f10 and go for pottery if we have no expansionist civs. Alphabet --> writing --> literature with a prebuild for the GL would be my bet after that. All the better if we can trade for alphabet.
I'd be very surprised if the tile N N of our staring spot was anything but coast, but I've been wrong before

 

[leif erikson]

Hi X Men

I understand we are playing in Civ3 1.29 vanilla and have set up to do so.

I downloaded the save last night and did a quick recon. Our opponents include: The Zulu, The Babylonians, The Aztecs, The Iroquois and The Americans. Of that, three are expansionist (Pottery), two are militaristic (Warrior Code), three are religious (CB), one scientific (which we are) and one industrious (as we are).

In GOTMs, I have always suffered when I have not gotten Pottery early to facilitate expansion. With three expansionist civs as opponents on a small map, I don't think we should consider Goody Huts (GH) as something we can count on. I set up a random game to test a few ideas yesterday.

If we decide to play AW, then Pottery, at 100 %, should require about 10 or 11 turns. To follow with Iron Working will require 30 turns at 100 % and 40 turns at 20 %, later at 10 %. I think Alan is right that, if it is AW, then The Wheel and Horseback Riding become priorities, along with getting some cities with Barracks.

The problem I found in my trial game is that with AW, should we meet a civ, like the Zulu early, we must have enough warriors to make sure we survive against their Impis, which can retreat like mounted troops. The Impi requires no resources and is available at the start for the Zulu.

Zamint is correct that we have furs to our west, not deer. While I hate to waste worker turns, it might be worth our while to send the worker to the hill to the northeast to see what that body of water is to the north and to see how much forest is to the east. If there is nothing enticing, then we settle on the spot and get on building warriors, three or so, and then a settler and then, depending on what we find, a Granary or a Barracks.

At Regent, shouldn't we be able to keep up with tech by doing our own research? If we can focus on one of the branches of the tech tree and get a little bit ahead, then as we meet other civs, we can trade our way up before declaring war on them, hopefully.

I agree with you both, if we have horses, its Chariots and Horseman asap, without horses, it is Immortals (if we find iron and seize it) and, as a last resort, Archers. I'm with you Alan, forget the defensive units, we need offense and an active defense. With AW, we must first be able to defend ourselves and then create the capacity to attack!

As far as multiple victory conditions, I would like to know we will survive before detailed planning begins for the future.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by mad-bax
I wonder if Alanh looks like Xerses leaderhead.

Ahah! You've peeked at my photo in one of last year's F^4 threads!

Hmmm! Must book an optician checkup. Furs! Oh well

So we're agreed on AW? If so I guess we want to defer contact as long as possible. So exploration should be fairly localised to find the best city sites. With three expansionist civs in the mix, they'll find us soon enough.

Re. Pottery - if three out of our five rivals are expansionist, I'd have thought we stand a good chance of trading for it on first contact. And unless we find a food-rich starting point for our first settler, my reading of the rule of thumb donated by SirPleb is that we should spit out settler first rather than granary if we think our second city will have more food than our first. If that's the case we can afford to wait for pottery.

BTW. Does anyone think widely spaced, non-overlapped city sites are a good idea? We'd better get that one out in the open early, as I've seen heated religious debates about it in one or two SGs I've lurked in. I generally prefer something like RCP if the terrain fits, with close spacing to allow fast movement between cities - three tiles/single turn marches by road if possible, except over rivers, of course. That'll maximise our active defense capability.

I was rather hoping someone else would step up for the first 20 turns, but I'll take them if no one else wants to. If so I'll pick it up tomorrow night as it's now after midnight in the UK.

Re the roster: We have two in UK, two in Scandinavia, with leif, the only Scandinavian name, in the US I don't think we can use time zones to any advantage with this mix, and at the moment we have mabellino AWOL. In the absence of any other suggestion I propose we run with the sequence as-is in mad-bax's first post, but move mabellino to immediately behind whoever plays first. That'll give him(?) maximum catch-up time. Anyone want to be called "she/her" by the way? Or are we all of the male persuasion?

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by zamint3

I haven't played vanilla for a long time, but its not much different from PTW or?

I've never played PtW, of course. The biggest difference I know of is the cost of workers. It's not likely to have any impact in an AW game, but AI workers cost 25 to 35 gold each in Civ3 vs. 130 gold or more in PtW. Other than that I have heard that the PtW AI is a bit harder to trick into going after soft targets?

 

[leif erikson]

I think you are on the right track Alan. As far as I'm concerned, closer spaced cities providing mutual defense is the way to go. I also think Pottery can wait a short while, do we start with Iron Working then or will it be The Wheel?

If you wish, I can play the first 20 turns. I just wanted to be sure I understand the concept that the team thinks we should use. I have downloaded the save and am ready, I think. I will do what you wish.

The main questions for the first person is to explore with the worker on the hill and then decide to move the settler or go for the bonus grass first with the worker. Moving the settler north to the water takes him out of the bonus grass for the first 10 turns. Depending on what is out there, that may be OK?

BTW - I am of Scandinavian (Swedish) and Dutch descent. In fact, I have more relatives in Europe than I have in the U.S. and have spent a great deal of time there.

 

[AlanH]

If the team is agreed, let's go!

Keeping up in research is reasonable-to-easy on Regent as long as you can trade, but if five others are all trading and we aren't then we are at a distinct disadvantage.

Plan A - I see the attraction of alphabet->writing->literature->GL. If we can be sure of snagging the GL then this would fit quite well, as it would take about 100 turns and we *might* even get to another government by the time we put Immortals into battle. Monarchy would be best since we won't be able to run AW in Republic, I imagine. We should be able to get the GL, as there will be no Commercial civ with an Alphabet head start, and a pre-build should do it for us.

If we are on a pangeia we'll get five early tech trades, less on any other shaped world. With luck we'll pick up Pottery, Warrior Code and CB. That would allow us to build archers for early offensives. I can't see us getting to HBR until we get the Library.

Plan B would be to go for horses and hope to grab the GL from someone else - a big gamble.

Plan C would be to beeline Ironworking. I think Iron should come a bit later, as it will take us straight to our UU in 40 turns, which feels a bit too soon to be triggering a GA.

Place your bets, guys. Wheel, or Alphabet, or Iron?

 

[zamint3]

I say we go for plan A, we should be able to trade for Warrior Code and get some archers.

Originally posted by AlanH
So we're agreed on AW? If so I guess we want to defer contact as long as possible. So exploration should be fairly localised to find the best city sites. With three expansionist civs in the mix, they'll find us soon enough.

I agree!!

I generally prefer something like RCP if the terrain fits, with close spacing to allow fast movement between cities - three tiles/single turn marches by road if possible, except over rivers, of course. That'll maximise our active defense capability.

I agree!!

Building order : Warrior, warrior, warrior, settler depending on how much extra food we find.

I won't be able to play today, but from friday and onwards should be fine.

Happy easterholidays

 

[AlanH]

Here's the roster then:

AlanH
mabellino
leif erikson - UP -
zamint3 On Deck
Capt Buttkick

Leif - play when ready. Plan A. Try to avoid contact. Scout on high ground/forests. If you meet anyone declare war before you close the diplo screen.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, I've got it and will start shortly.

Plan A it is, close build resembling RCP at 3 squares, and AW. Just pray we don't run into the Zulu too soon!

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I'm aiming to log in twice a day as long as I'm home (a week after easter). After that I'm usually more active in the forums when I'm at work cause I'm sitting behind my PC all the time anyway

I was going to vote plan A anyway. Good luck, Leif

Q: did we find out whether we're allowed to run away from making contact?

 

[leif erikson]

Here is the turn log.

Turn 0
I decided to have a look around and moved the worker onto the hill to the northeast. We are located on a peninsula surrounded by salt water.
I settle on the start location, planning to place our next city on the water. Persepolis is founded and production is set to warrior.
Research is set to Alphabet at 20 percent (40 turns).

IBT

Turn 1
Worker moves southeast.

IBT

Turn 2
Worker roads.

IBT

Turn 3

IBT

Turn 4
Worker mines.

IBT
Persepolis produces a warrior, production set to warrior.

Turn 5
Warrior moves south.

IBT

Turn 6
Warrior moves south.

IBT

Turn 7
Worker moves west and southwest onto furs.
Warrior moves southwest onto a GH. We have disturbed a group of Harrapan Warriors. No Luck!

IBT
We are attacked by the warriors. We defeat the first losing one hit point and lose to the second. Luck is getting worse!

Turn 8
Worker roads.

IBT
Persepolis produces a warrior, production set to warrior.

Turn 9
Warrior moves south beside the barbarian warrior.

IBT
The Harrapin Warrior attacks and is defeated while we lose one hit point.
Persepolis expands due to our excellent cultural achievements. There is a bridge of land to the north and nothing further to the east, except more water.
Persepolis grows to size 2.

Turn 10
Warrior fortifies to regain health.

IBT
We now have furs in Persepolis, the people rejoice.

Turn 11
Worker moves north.
Warrior moves south.

IBT

Turn 12
Worker roads.
Warrior moves south along the hilltops.

IBT
Persepolis produces a warrior,Warrior2, production to settler.
I can not change the name, in PTW it is shift N.

Turn 13
Warrior2 moves north.
Warrior moves west.

IBT

Turn 14
The grass looks greener to the north.
Worker north.
Warrior2 northwest.
Warrior southwest.

IBT

Turn 15
Worker roads.
Warrior2 northwest onto bridge, another GH.
Warrior south.

IBT

Turn 16
Warrior south, another land bridge.
Warrior2 takes a GH and we have been given a skilled warrior (conscript.) I’ll call CW.
CW moves south, to guard Persepolis.

IBT

Turn 17
Warrior2 north.
Warrior southeast.
Worker moves northwest.
CW moves southeast.

IBT

Turn 18
CW fortifies.
Worker moves northwest.
Warrior2 moves northwest and finds dyes.
Warrior moves south.

IBT

Turn 19
Warrior2 moves north.
Worker roads.
Warrior moves south.

IBT

Turn 20
Warrior2 moves west.
Warrior moves south.

Firaxis score 53.

<<The Save>>

This is a tough start. I'll post a screen shot in a few minutes and explain where we are.

 

[leif erikson]

To the north are the dyes, to the south there is not much. Have not met any other civs yet either.

I started the worker on building a road and mine for city number 2. Of course, whoever is next can place it wherever they feel is best. The only food is the fish to the west of Persepolis and I couldn't find a good way to get it into a city radius quickly. I have found only two bonus grass, one we are using and the second the worker is on now.

Suggestions I have, perhaps we can speed up research some, I forgot to check. I was tryign to build up gold for any meetings with other civs. It may also be worth speeding up the settler a bit.

I look forward to watching how we develop this. Good luck.