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SGOTM2 Germany - Team Alamo

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    SGOTM2 Game Thread

    Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

    Here is the start position.


    Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

    You can download your save file >>HERE<<.

    The Roster
    Alamo
    bradleyfeanor
    Cuivienen
    SesnOfWther
    shoe35
     
  2. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    [size=+2]Team Alamo is online - Deutschland uber alles![/size]

    [size=+1]Preliminaries[/size]

    We are playing [ptw]1.27f.

    Game Parameters
    [size=-1]Civ: Germans
    Difficulty: Monarch
    Map size: Standard
    Map shape: Continents.3
    Barbarians: Raging Horde
    Climate: Normal
    Temperature: Temperate
    Age: 4 Billion Years
    Game: All victories; Restarting players off
    Opponents: 6 Rivals[/size]

    Rules of Engagement are here.

    Variant: Achieve a diplomatic victory without building the UN wonder.

    I have heard from SesnOfWthr and bradleyfeanor. Players cuivienen and shoe35 please post here.

    [size=+1]Initial Strategy[/size]

    The first round is 20 turns to 3000BC.

    At the current spot we would get 4 mountains in the capital city radius. The idea of exploring S before settling has been seconded. Moving the worker S would show if there are more forest or grasslands available.

    Proposed build order: warrior, warrior, worker, granary.

    Those 2 warriors can go on walkabout. However, raging barbarians will require more warriors when they start popping. The ransom should pay for their upkeep.

    Who wants to go first?
     
  3. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    I'm still here, and I still don't worry myself with the order. Although, like most people, I would usually prefer to go first.

    Question though - you want to build a worker as the third unit? Don't you think that's a bit early? If anything, I might advocate a third warrior for MP, or start the granary after the first two warriors. Is this a trick I haven't seen yet?

    I am reasonably sure there is one grassland 1 S, and 1 SE. However this looks like it, except for forest. What is the forest chop time in PTW? I find it mildly annoying that the start position has the minimap cropped out. Makes it harder to guess where we should explore. I will point out that there is some body of water to the NW, unknown size and fresh/salt, of course. Correction: Is some of that land near the settler jungle? I can't tell with those graphics, as I'm so used to the ones I use.

    BTW - I have never used PTW, so please tell me if I'm making a Conquests only reference at any point in the game.
     
  4. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Welcome to the thread, SesnOfWthr.

    That build order was proposed by bradleyfeanor. Building a worker before starting a granary makes sense if you consider how long a granary will take to build. If there is a reasonable food supply then the population will recover and complete the granary without much delay, especially if the worker can contribute food improvements in the meantime.

    We are militaristic and scientific (not industrious), so it will take 10 turns to chop a forest.

    The water to the NW is another reason to move S. Making room for a town there would let us start the Colossus.

    Yes, the tile SW x 2 is jungle. A slight risk of disease if we move the settler S, and another reason for a second worker.

    About the strategy

    Since the map is Continents.3 (large landmasses) we do not have to dive for MapMaking (for galleys), but we do need to grab land (bigger is better - power/res/lux). Many settlers will be needed, so building a granary is useful to speed up population growth.

    We start with Warrior Code and Bronze Working, so we need to research Pottery 100% first (for the granary). Also, set the research immediately after founding Berlin, or loose a turn of research.
     
  5. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    Checking in.

    Checking south before settling seems like a good idea. If the land to the south is all/mostly Jungle, settle on the starting location. Otherwise, move one south. (Two northwest leaves the river outside of the city radius.)

    On research:

    I've found this research path to be the fastest route to the Middle Ages:

    Pottery --> Iron Working --> (Alphabet) --> Mathematics --> Currency

    We can trade those, especially Iron Working and Currency, for all the rest of the AA techs. We may need a quick run to Literature or The Republic to finish off the AA, but that's only if we're unlucky. Alphabet may or may not need to be self-researched, depending on who we start near.
     
  6. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    It's interesting that you are the only person to mention this. In every SG I run I always show the minimap. I havent' in this one for a reason... Did you play GOTM8?
     
  7. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    To be entirely honest, I have never played ANY GOTM. However, this one does seem familiar. Is it included in one of Bamspeedy's strat articles or something?

    Re: research. Personally I have found alphabet and writing to be two of the most valuable techs in the AA. Does philo give the free tech in PTW?
     
  8. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Welcome, Cuivienen!

    First move of worker to S is seems agreed. I assume you have no preference on going first.

    That's an interesting research proposal. I tend to go for wheel before iron to reveal the horses sooner. That's more out of habit than necessity, though.

    Of course the research choices will change if we can trade. That is why early explorers are important.

    Literature and Republic are optional, but useful techs. I prefer to switch governments just once to republic (for a non-religious civ). If we research Republic then we will get the anarchy re-roll option. That is a second chance for lower number of turns in anarchy if you start the revolt from the popup and re-revolt in the F1 screen when advisor says things will be under control in 'about 9 turns'.

    Keep in mind that Republic in PTW is not as bad as C3C - no unit support, but only 1gpt/unit. In Republic corruption is not as bad as for Monarchy and each roaded tile worked will produce commerce, which will pay the unit support. War weariness can be a problem, though.

    Markets and 2 or 3 luxury items usually keeps order, but a protracted war will be unacceptable (especially if we start it).

    One thing I noticed about Monarch level is the AI is more likely to do a pre-emptive attack. Simply building and moving a large number of troops close to a border can provoke an attack, which is better that having to start the war.

    Another thing about PTW vs C3C - a Forbidden Palace is very useful. We should consider building/rushing one at some point.
     
  9. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    No free tech from philosophy. Is that a C2 throwback in C3C?

    As for the most valuable tech, Polytheism has been most coveted tech in my experience. It is required, it leads to a wonder, but it is out of the loop for all the other useful techs. Most AI's are busy with other techs so you can get it first. When you do get it first the AI's will usually make a generous trade for it.
     
  10. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    yes, philo now gives access to the free tech, as in Civ2. It also gives access to a new wonder too, but that's irrelevant.

    Does the RCP still work in PTW? If the FP has a real benefit, then I'm guessing the RCP still works too.

    Course that also means maps with MM. So we can continually trade our map around, right? Just so long as we've already sold it once.

    Bear with me guys, I'm trying to get back into the Vanilla/PTW mentality again. I'll be fine once I get playing again.

    PS - Armies are still crappy too, right?
     
  11. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Yes, Ring City Placement (RCP) is good, though not always possible. I think the distance is simply number of squares, though it does not look equal along the diagonals.

    Map trades are possible if one civ has MapMaking, and there is a reputation bonus for trading maps every so often.

    Armies are somewhat useful. An army of offensive troops can be an effective siege weapon. At least they heal better in 1.27 - healing in parallel instead of one at a time. They can attack multiple times, but they cannot retreat. Of course the Heroic Epic, Military Academy and Pentagon can be useful.

    When I get a Great Leader I usually consider rushing a FP or the next big wonder before making the first Army.
     
  12. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    I would agree that the MGL's are more useful for rushing, however it's nice to know that the blitz and healing are there for the armies. I've been playing vanilla in one of ny other sg's, and they're damn near useless. Do they get the extra movement too?

    Repeatedly selling maps can be a nice way to get a few extra gold every couple of turns, though it can be tedious.

    IIRC, in RCP, each diagonal square counts as 1.5 as opposed to the 1 each horiz/vert counts as. Therefore, a city 4 tile NE is the same distance as a city 6 tile S. Of course, geographical limitations certainly come into play.
     
  13. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    Obviously, if an Army is able to attack multiple times, it has more than one movement point ;)

    RCP works perfectly well in PTW, as I just re-experienced in GOTM 31. I'm pretty sure that all directions are created equal when using RCP, but I haven't played PTW since November, so maybe my RCP in GOTM 31 was messed up.
     
  14. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Looks like you're right about RCP.

    Distance = max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW directions, respectively.

    I'm not sure about which endpoints to include, though. Is this a radius 5 setup, or did they take a one step too far?



    Edit: Looks like I did it backwards - up/down and left/right are 1.5, while diagonals are 1.

    Edit II: New image linked. I'm still not happy with it, though. That formula is kind of flaky.

    Edit III: New image with optimal paths.
     
  15. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    First CVN - the blitz attack is what allows the army to attack multiple times, but the question was: do armies get an extra movement point as in Conquests? ie - an infantry army can move/attack twice per turn.

    Alamo - You did do it backwards, but that's my fault. N, S, E, W count as 1.5 while diagonals count as one. It's been a while since I used it. However, using my incorrect amounts, the placements all look to be correct. When done correctly, IIRC, the shape resembles an oval more than a ring.
     
  16. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    No, the PTW army moves according to the lowest common denominator among the 3 or 4 units.

    The problem with that distance formula is inconsistent results along different paths. The distance makes sense as a minimum along all paths between the start and finish squares (not including the start and finish). I'll redraw the picture to make more sense.
     
  17. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    In all honesty Alamo, your pic confused me because I think you just sorta left the warriors where they were.

    In this pic, yellow is city center, red is ring of three, and blue is ring of six.

     
  18. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Confusion describes my post pretty well! :lol:

    So you do include the endpoint. I agree that is the distance travelled by the settler. If you put a city there is the distance between the city and the capital still the same?
     
  19. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Not sure i understand this part of the question.

    For RCP purposes, all of the red dots are considered to be the same "3" from the capitol. Therefore, if you were to use rings of 3 and 6, there would be 8 cities with rank 1 corruption, and 16 cities with rank 2.

    Obviously though, for movement purposes, all cities would not be equal, with some being two steps from the capitol, and the rest being three (with the red dots).

    Is that what you meant?
     
  20. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Distance in the real world is the space between points, but all we have are points (tiles).

    Once you have 2 cities you can look at the empty squares between them, or you can look at how a unit travels from one city to the other. Since not all directions are the same it could make a difference.

    Now I see that the distances get rounded down. That removes the difference, in practical terms.

    Distance = Min over all paths [ floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)) ]

    (x,y) = number of tiles travelled along 'X' (NW/SE) directions , ignoring '+' (NS/EW) directions.
     

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