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SGOTM2 Germany - Team Alamo

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    If we could pull this off I think it would be good.

    I don't know enough about the differences to help on this.
     
  2. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Ooooohhhh, ahhhhh. That map is looking better.

    We need to take Paris, end the war and become a Republic before our GA.

    I think we have ample time for that before Copernicus is built. It would be nice to take Lyons also, but I don’t feel it is critical. We can go ahead and revolt to Republic the turn after we take the city(s). Just before the anarchy period is over we can get peace with the French. We shouldn’t make peace before then because we may get a few flips.

    We should definitely not worry about the OCN, as more territory leads to a higher score. Once we have enough workers, all our corrupt cities should build a settler now and then to spread our borders over the continent.

    Our policy regarding the other continent should be to leave them at peace in order to hurry the tech pace. However, that will leave us with a dilemma in the modern age. At present, Japan and China are both strong, so either one could be capable of building the UN. In a worst-case scenario, they would both be at war and building the UN. If that happened, we would have to ensure that at least two AIs were at war with each of them. It is the only way to ensure that the appearance of a leader does not lose the game for us.

    I am not concerned with where the UN is built. We will have a large enough force of Panzers to take it, wherever it appears.

    One question: Do we have enough military to take Paris and/or Lyons in the next few turns, or will it take several?
     
  3. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    We have several troops in the area but most if not all are injured. AFAIK Paris has only 1 knight (as that was all Joan had moved into Paris) and spearmen left to defend it. Taking Paris shouldn't take too long if Joan doesn't get muskets before we take it.
     
  4. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Wow. Another thread I missed a bunch in through a single day (you should have seen LK69 though :rolleyes: )

    Paris, Lyons, and Orleans(furs) should be the extent of our objective here. As soon as Astronomy is in, I will start a revolt. As soon as the revolt ends, I will try to finish with Joan, if it is still my turn.

    As BF said, pop is more important to score than corruption, so I would build as many cities as possible.

    Regarding the UN, will an alliance partner vote for you even if they are not at war with the other candidate? EX: We have MA with Russia vs France. Japan builds the UN. Can we be assured of Russia's vote, due to the MA?
     
  5. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Crap. That is a really good question Sesn. I don't know, and unfortunately I just cleaned out all my old saves, so I can't run a test. Alamo, didn't you just win via Diplomatic victory? I don't suppose you have a save with which you could run a test...
     
  6. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Nope, I'm midway through another game, though.

    It comes down to whose reputation is better. It is impossible to repair a reputation quickly. That's why peace is better sooner than later.

    The effect of a MA is to temporarily increase attitude towards us and decrease attitude towards the object of the MA.

    I'll see if I can find how long it takes for attitude to recover from a military campaign.

    Edit: No mention of it in the AI attitude article. I thought it was something like 1000 yrs. One interesting tidbit is that gifts have a maximum benefit of 1000g.
     
  7. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Well, if we can't improve the AI's attitudes toward us, I know getting the AI's at war with the other UN candidate will make them abstain or vote for us every time. So if the MA's are ineffectual, we can just make sure they are at war. Then it doesn't matter how evil we are.
     
  8. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Another random thought: Can we keep an eye out and try to get civs to damage their own rep? IE: sign MPP's so they'll have to break deals, etc?

    BTW, playing now.

    EDIT: you did mean rep and not attitude, right?
     
  9. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Pre turn – Let’s see if I can avoid mucking this up as bad as my last turns. ;)

    There is a settler pair wandering around NE of Yakutsk.
    Everyone has gunpowder except us and our two victims. No one has any desire to part with it, either.
    Did anyone else realize that there is another civ still out there somewhere?
    There is a Russian warrior just outside undefended 23. Actually, we have about 8 undefended cities.

    Umm, where’s this Cops prebuild we’ve talked about? I see 04 building Leos, but that is some 56 turns away. :hmm: Even though there are about 200 shields invested, it will still take about 23 turns to complete Cops. We could build it from scratch in 01 in approximately the same amount of time.

    There is also a large patch of land that is unsettled to the east. It’s all jungle now, but will make great land when cleared.

    The first couple turns should be very telling. If Joan has any saltpeter, she’ll be able to build some muskets before I can heal and attack.

    Hit enter.

    IT – Vet knight defeats our 2/4 knight.

    760 ad (1) – Army kills reg longbow in the open. Moving/healing troops.

    IT – Knight takes Shoe’s “bait” and grabs the worker.

    770 ad (2) – Not much. Vet knight falls to elite knight, -4hp. Elite knight finishes the job. I also take a moment and rename our cities (had to google “german beer brands” :lol: )

    IT – Astronomy comes in, set for banking. We lose a 2/4 vet in counters.

    780 ad (3) – Army kills reg pike in Paris, -6hp. Elite knight kills reg spear, -1hp. Elite knight gets redlined attacking reg spear. :eek: You know, they say great men are made in times of peril (or maybe just I say that), and that’s what happened with my man Horsa. Ideally, I’d like to finagle Sistine and Cops here, but let’s see how it can work out.

    Ok, I want to use him up ASAP, as I’m not done fighting, and have a few more elites licking their chops, so here’s my plan: between Sistine’s and Leos, there are five other 600 shield builds in progress. I figure, if I rush Sistine, Leo’s will be close for someone in the cascade. We switch our build to Cops, and try to hold the monopoly until Leos completes somewhere. The gamble will be if someone else discovers Astronomy before Leos, and they cascade to Cops, a 400 shield wonder. However, we could also sit on the leader for several turns and rush Cops after our anarchy, a span of some 6 or so turns, with fighting going on. If I end up screwing this up, you guys can kill me, I swear.

    What am I, psychic? We draw six turns of anarchy. :sad:

    IT – We lose an elite knight and our army in counters from the French longbows.

    790 ad (4) – Kill reg pike and reg spear in Paris. Prepare for assault on Lyons.

    800 ad (5) - We lose elite knight on reg pike in paris, -2 hp. Vet knight kills reg spear, flawless. I’ll have to regroup before Paris can fall. Reg pike retreats our vet knight in Lyons, -1hp. Elite knight kills reg spear, -2 hp. Ditto. Vet knight kills 2/3 pike, and Lyons now speaks German.

    IT – reg pike in Smolensk wins and promotes vs a longbow I never even saw. :rolleyes:

    810 ad (6) – Not much, healing knights for assault on Paris. Elite knight kills vet longbow in the open.

    820 ad (7) – Elite knight kills vet longbow on hill, -3hp. Ditto. Well, it wasn’t the EXACT same battle, since this one did it flawless, and we see the re-emergence of Barbarossa. :D I guess that solves my little dilemma, huh? I’ll go rush Leo’s, let everyone drop their projects, and sell Astronomy around.

    IT – Japan demands Astronomy. Normally, I might cave, but with my convoluted little scheme, I can’t afford to. Bah, who am I kidding? I wouldn’t cave anyhow. Bring it on!! The wuss backs down.

    830 ad (8) – Elite* knight loses flawless to reg pike. Vet knight wins and promotes vs now promoted pike. Reg pike retreats vet knight, flawless. Vet knight kills reg pike, flawless. Vet pike defeats reg spear, -2hp. Paris is once again German property. Do me a favor though, no burning the Louvre or anything, OK? Elite* knight defeats reg knight on hill, -4hp.

    840 ad (9) – Republic comes in, and the people immediately build a new wing on the palace. I won’t make peace just yet, to insure Paris can be starved down. Elite knight kills reg knight flawless.

    850 ad (10) – WW immediately rears its ugly head, and lux rate gets a bump to 30%.

    Some notes for the next better player:
    I didn’t make peace so we could assure ourselves of keeping Paris.
    French counters are barely a trickle.
    WW is getting very costly.
    Once GA hits we should focus on aqueducts, temples, cathedrals, markets.
    Once we enter milking mode, irrigate everything in sight.
    We still have Astronomy at monopoly, this should be traded soon.
    Joan will give us the world (minus cities) for peace.
    I have one settler built, and another started in the french cities, should probably send these to the east.
    There are two barb camps about: one near Yakutsk, another north of the barb patrol north of Yakutsk.

    >>>SAVE<<<
     
  10. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Nice job Sesn. Wow, two leaders! :eek:

    Ooops, in my previous post, I did mean attitude and not reputation (I changed it). Our rep is untarnished as far as I know.

    We have met all Civs according to F10.

    :rolleyes: My two cents on the next several turns and the future build order for cities: :rolleyes:

    I am a little worried about getting Copernicus. Some of the strong AI cities could still outpace the slow city we have building it. We need workers built for the Copernicus city: four can join the city and six more can build two mines in the hills. We need to do that as quickly as possible.

    As soon as we have peace with France, our lux rate will drop to 10%--without building temples--so I think they should be low on our priority list. If we trade for two luxuries, we won’t need cathedrals until hospitals are built, if even then. As soon as our GA ends, we should try to build workers wherever the population can be spared, and any city reaching size 12 should immediately build a worker. The best build order for cities IMHO, depends on corruption. The following build order excludes workers and barracks/military, which should be built as needed. It also doesn’t include wonders, improvements that come late modern age or power plants, the latter because the human player usually gets Hoover.

    Max corrupt cities
    Harbor if needed to grow.
    Aqueduct if needed.
    Marketplace
    Library if borders need to expand borders
    Cathedral or Temple depending on happiness needs


    Partially or non corrupt cities
    Harbor if needed to grow.
    Aqueduct if needed.
    Library, but only because we are scientific. (this should be first in a flip-risk city)
    Marketplace or courthouse (market if corruption low, court if high)
    Cathedral if needed for happiness
    University (only due to being scientific again)
    Hospital when available
    Mass transit if needed and when available.
    Factory when available (if the city has several of the above improvements to build, it can be best to build this earlier)
    Bank or police station when available (police if needed, otherwise bank)
    Recycling plant if needed and when available

    Now that we are in Republic, we don’t need MPs (military units) in the middle cities of our empire. I would move some of them to the frontiers, some to the unsettled areas and let others escort settlers.
    After we switch to peace mode, our non-elite swordsmen should be disbanded in corrupt cities for the shields.
    We can switch military builds and temples to other things.
    We need lots of workers. If a city is working undeveloped tiles, consider building a worker there.
    We need libraries in Paris and Lyons to prevent flips. I would build those after building a settler or worker in each.
     
  11. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Points/counterpoints

    I agree on the Cops city adding workers, but I still doubt that we'll miss it.

    I disagree on your city builds. According to the formula SirPleb devised for score, happy citizens are worth two content or specialist. That is why I listed those happiness improving builds as the priorities. Regardless of our strat going forward, we want to maximize score, as we have quite some time before the UN can be built.

    We don't need to build barracks, ever, as we have Sun Tzu's.

    If someone has the patience, they could go through and sell of any granaries that we have built.

    On the F4 screen, one leaderhead is still a question mark.

    We have many cities frozen at size 6. We should peel workers from there and build aqueducts ASAP.

    I think that's it, for now.....
     
  12. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    I agree on peeling from size 6 cities. I also noticed the question mark on the F4 screen, but I am pretty sure there are no other civs. You were right about Barracks too, so I deleted it.

    If I am wrong about the following, then I will happily learn a better way and build in any order the team chooses! :)

    You are right about happy citizens = two content or specialists. However, I think SirPleb seldom ever builds Temples or Cathedrals unless going for a culture win. To paraphrase from his hall of fame game, "you build harbors, markets, granaries and aqueducts in corrupt cities." AFAIK none of the elite players build happiness improvements unless they know luxuries will be hard to come by, or a city gets very large. I don't think we will have that problem in this game because we will have techs to trade for luxuries. If we end the war, trade for a few luxuries and build markets, I will be amazed if we need happiness improvements until cities get larger than 12.
     
  13. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    So you got 2 MGL's and rushed Sistene and Leos? :banana:

    I started the pre-build. At the time it was the 2cnd highest shield city. I neglected to mention the needed improvments - sorry.

    I'll take a look this evening - got it.

    Just for clarification, reputation for deal-breaking, sneak attack and attrocities will indirectly or directly affect AI attitude, but other things can affect AI attitude (like MPP's).
     
  14. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    @BF - I guess the point I'm hedging on is need vs want. I realize that we probably won't NEED the happiness improvements to avoid riots, but why don't we WANT those same improvements to increase score? We will have quite some time after Alamo's ten before we'll need to do anything but build and expand, so what am I missing? Please note: I will be the first to admit that I am not an Elite player, and one of the many reasons I love SG's is because I learn so much. Please don't take this as a pointless argument from me, but just help me to see the logic you're using.

    I guess my problem is that while all of those builds listed facilitate growth, only markets increase smileys. If none of the top players use those builds, is that because when they are milking they already have all 8 luxes?

    I also think we'd be crazy not to take advantage of Sistine's.

    If I'm still going around in circles, let me know and I'll try to clarify more.

    @all - A new thought for the endgame. We just keep on our path of destruction and leave one AI largely untouched. We gift them, and only them, up to fission, and sign a bunch of MA's a few turns before the build completes. That negates the MGL concern, right? I realize it may be a bit late to change horses, but I imagine we'll be doing lots of strategizing, and not so much playing for a while here, so what the heck, right?

    *end of rant* :rolleyes:
     
  15. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    @Sesn - Seeing your need vs. want arguement, I think I may have given the wrong impression regarding cathedrals. I want them too! What I was trying to say was that I think the growth improvements and the markets (with luxuries) yield higher scores. When Markets are fueled by luxuries, they can generate an amazing number of happy people. Once those are built, we should build Sistene-Powered Cathedrals by all means!

    If I get a chance, I will test the difference in happiness generated by Markets with Luxuries and Cathedrals with Sistene. I think that is what our debate basically boils down to. And to be honest, I'm not positive that my view is the correct one!

    Re: milking with all 8 luxuries.

    I think that is the case more often than not. Another reason they seldom need hapiness wonders is because they typically build cities close together, and thus few cities get large enough to need them.

    Re: Endgame
    I could go for a cavalry or panzer blitz to weaken all foes except one. Turns would take a bit longer, but its a nice, straightforward approach!
     
  16. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Preamble: Need workers at 02 ASAP, so 01 switched to worker. Demanded Russian warrior leave. Barb camp near 33 threatens English workers - knight from 03 will head there next turn. Russian warrior may find them first. Got Russian Wmap for Wmap+5g - 3 camps. Moved workers out of Paris. Paris flip chance high w/riot+pyramid, so 4 knights moved out. Start galley on trip around island. Fire clown in 30.

    IT: Russian warrior fights barb, Joan wants peace - will give Dijon! No flip - whew!

    860AD(1) - 01 builds worker, starts pike. Paris resistors quelled - still riots. Lyons builds settler, starts lib. 03 builds knight, starts pike. 08 builds market, starts pike. Move knights back into Paris. Sci.Lux to 30/30 for Bank in 3.

    IT: Order restored in Paris. Moscow riots - more beet soup!

    870AD(2) - 09 builds courhouse, starts pike. 13,23 build courthouses, start pikes. Kill longbow at Paris. Hurry libs in Paris and Lyons for culture ASAP. Clear camp.

    IT: Tade Liz maps. Russian warrior got the camp, but another appears in SE.

    880AD(3) - 01 builds pike - starts settler. Pike to 04. Paris, Lyons start courts. Switch Avignon to court. 32 builds pike, starts worker. 07 builds knight, starts worker. Clear camp. Paris looks secure - make peace for gunpowder+banking. Give Joan ivory gratis. Sci/Lux to 50/20 for Music in 4. Switch 15 to court.

    IT: French start Copernicus. (why does this pop up so late?)

    890AD(4) - 17 builds temple, starts settler. 26 builds pike, starts settler. Landscape palace. Trade Wmap with everyone. Hurry court in Colossus city - still no culture there. Not a huge flip chance, but an easy thing to fix. Sell barracks and granary and establish embassies for better relations.

    IT: Japan, China start Copernicus.

    900AD(5) - 01 builds settler, starts HE (bachs prebuild). 32 builds worker, starts pike. 22 builds pike, starts market. 02 builds temple, starts worker. 21 builds court, starts lib. 07 builds worker, starts market. I finally realize I need to hook up saltpeter - doh! Clear camp. Sci/Lux to 30/10.

    IT: Trade maps with China.

    910AD(6) - 02 builds worker, starts univ. 25 builds knight, starts settler. 03 builds pike, starts temple. 08 builds pike, starts temple. 19 builds lib, starts worker. Send settlers and escorts to SE.

    IT: Nada

    920AD(7) - Sci/Lux 50/10 for chem in 4. 17 builds settler, starts pike. 16 builds settler, starts court. 23 builds pike, starts lib. 01 switched to Bachs.

    IT: Nada

    930AD(8) - 06 builds temple, starts settler. 09 builds pike, starts temple. 13 builds pike, starts worker. 29 builds pike, starts temple. Palace addition. Paris safely size 1. Get saltpeter hooked up - need 1110g for u/g (30g/pike) even w/Leos! :(

    IT: Nada

    940AD(9) - 25 builds settler, starts musket. 12 builds lib, starts worker. 14 builds temple, starts worker. 26 riots - ??? I checked F1... 30 builds harbor, starts worker. Finally have mined hill at 04 - Cop in 7. Barb camp near 33, in SE wilderness.

    IT:

    950AD(10) - 34 builds knight, starts settler. 32 builds pike, starts settler. 05 builds aquaduct, starts temple. 38 riots - what the @#$! - it just grew! 10 builds aquaduct, starts court. 13 builds worker, starts temple. 26 builds settler, starts another. Establish 49_Steinlager. Sci/Lux to 30/10 for chem in 1.

    Summary
    -------
    At peace
    Copernicus+Golden Age in 6, hopefully.
    4 settlers walking, 4 in progress
    Everyone furious or annoyed (can only trade w/Joan)
    Settler building in 06 should go N
    You have to watch for discontent closely or get riots
    2 barb camps (just traded map)
     

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  17. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    "make peace for gunpowder+banking"

    how in the hell did Joan get banking when she barely had a leg to stand on?
     
  18. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Joan could have traded to get banking, but the AI typically goes for smiths and shakespear, for some reason.

    Those workers near 06 should mine next, though it may not matter by the time they're through. Send that team to 01 next for wonder-work.

    We probably have enough settlers once the next 4 are complete. The settler going to 33 is intended for that gap the English snuck through. If you have an extra then send it over to our island.

    We could probably get another wonder - Newtons on top of Copernicus would be nice for a super-science city.

    I tried to get enough settlers and workers to take us through the GA. That way we can concentrate on building improvements.

    So what to do with the GA? We definitely should build courthouses in the non-ring cities. After that, I generally go for mood-improving buildings so it is feasible to get WLTLD. With 4 native lux that should be easy.

    Next Player
    ------------
    SensOfWthr
    alamo
    Cuivienen
    bradleyfeanor
    Shoe35
     
  19. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Maybe I should clarify my question then: How did our monopoly on Astronomy get broken AND banking get discovered in some four turns?

    As far as the buildings, that's basically the whole discussion BF and I have been having. I've decided what BF may be trying to say is that the growth buildings translate to more people, which translates to higher score over time. Still not sure if it's the right strat for this situation, but there it is anyhow.
     
  20. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Very good turns, Alamo! I am curious though: What is your strategy in building pikemen?

    Here is the breakdown on the marketplace w/ luxuries vs. cathedral w/ Sistene debate. I ran a test to do a comparison.

    Expected Results
    A market with 6 luxuries yields 12 happy faces (in addition to the extra money). A cathedral with Sistene yields 6 happy faces. When you add in the same number of luxuries (6) for the cathedral, it should give 12 happy faces (the same amount). That is what I expect to see in the test.

    Test
    The test city has a temple, and with no market or cathedral it has 6 happy citizens and 6 unhappy. There is no luxury tax.
    With a cathedral, Sistene and 6 luxuries it has 9 happy and 3 unhappy.
    With a market, Sistene and 6 luxuries it has 9 happy and 3 unhappy.

    The happiness benefits of both are equivalent. So the difference comes down to three things:
    1) the market costs two less in maintenance and adds 50% to money generated (better economy). The cathedral gives a better culture.
    2) the market costs 100 to build vs. 160 for a cathedral.
    3) the effectiveness of the market is dependent on luxuries. If you have less or more than six, its power changes dramatically. (4 lux = 6 happy faces; 6 lux = 12; 8 lux = 20)
     

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