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SGOTM2 Germany - Team Alamo

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Well, that was fairly predictable, but good job nonetheless. I suppose the question then becomes: How many luxes can we be assured of having? Obviously 4, and I would imagine we could regularly trade for 1 or 2 more. At times we can have four, and at other times we may have all 8.

    I guess I can concede that the market is more powerful, in that many markets would also allow us to bump the luxes as needed. We really need to decide on a priority for build orders.

    Aqueducts must be first, where needed. After that, I guess it's kind of a decision for the player.
     
  2. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    As you say, Aqueducts first. The only reason I had Harbors listed above them is because sometimes a city needs one to grow above 6. I should have clarified that.

    The way I see our game right now, I believe there are four things that will have the biggest impact on our score. In order of importance, they are:

    1) Win as early as possible (In this game, that means rushing through the tech tree to the modern age, taking the UN, then stacking the deck for the vote).
    2) Increase the land under our control
    3) Make our population happy
    4) Get more people

    These last three have to happen early, of course. If they occur near the end of the game they will have no noticable impact on score.

    Do you guys agree with those, or would you prioritize other factors for score? Maybe if we can come to a concensus regarding factors that impact score, getting our build priorities will be easier.
     
  3. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    About those pikes: We needed town defenders and pikes were the cheapest troops to build. I did expect some of the builds to convert to muskets. I didn't expect such a high price for u/g - 30g/pike compared to a mere 20g for knight to cav w/o Leos. I don't usually leave my towns undefended - I was feeling exposed. We do get 1 happiness from garrison, right? Maybe it was a waste. They will upgrade to inf, tho.

    I usually build a courthouse sooner than later to recover some lost commerce.
     
  4. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    We do not get happiness from troops under the Republic government. Troops can get very costly under a Republic as well. Usually it is better to build fast, attacking units, because you only need about 1/3 to 1/2 as many in order to defend yourself. Also, if the AI decides he wants to pilage your roads, it is much better to have something that can attack. Finally, defenders give you war weariness. When an AI attacks you, you get WW whether you win or lose. If you attack them and win, however, they get all the WW and you get none.

    I generally put attacking units in all my frontier and coastal cities and leave all the cities on the interior of my empire empty, except for a handful of knights or cavalry to serve as reserves. This works well for me, but some players prefer a unit in every city because they believe it makes the AI less likely to attack. AFAIK, this has never been proven.

    I usually only build defenders this late in a game to support an invasion force, and I keep a few around to put in front of the enemy if he builds up troops on my borders (for a sneak attack).
     
  5. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    I might drop #2 down to #4, because land itself only indirectly influences score (more cities). The other problem is that you have to decrease pop to get more land, to eventually get more pop. What a wacky game, huh? :crazyeye: IIRC, Alamo said he had several settlers in production/en route, and that should be enough.

    Agree with attackers vs defenders, and with no core defense. Unit upkeep can indeed get prohibitive in Republic, especially with no unit support.

    On another note, depending on our economy/research rate, we may want to consider keeping lux rate higher than we otherwise might.
     
  6. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    @Alamo - I just found all your graphs for GOTM31. Most impressive and interesting! :goodjob: What program do you use to make those?
     
  7. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Offensive troops only: Interesting strategy. I didn't realize the WW implications. The last time I considered garrison strategy I was recovering from a ROP-sneak attack. BW, we should sign ROP's w/our neighbors.

    So do you build Infantry or Cav? Does infantry def of 10 may make up for not having 3 move and retreat?

    Empty cities will influence AI tactics in war, but I believe it is overall strength that deters attacks. Once I did get a pre-emptive attack when I massed troops on a border, though. I guess an unguarded city could be a tempting target for an AI on the fence.

    About those graphs: I made the graphs using Spotfire, which also has fancy interactive features to the graphs.
     
  8. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    I think territory makes up a large portion of the score rather than number of cities. From SirPleb's (there's that name again! :rolleyes: ) "Maximizing your score" article:
    (Territory + HappyCitizens*2 + ContentCitizens + Specialists) * Difficulty = score at the end of each turn.

    For the end-of-game score all these turn scores are averaged, and the early victory date bonus is added in.

    So, if we could pick up around 80 more tiles of land or so, it would be the equivalent of having 40 more happy citizens.

    That being said, your moving #2 to #4 is still a better idea I think. We can definitely increase our pop and happiness right now, but we really can't grab more land effectively until after cavalry at the earliest.

    I also think your idea to raise the lux rate might be a good idea (if we can afford it).
     
  9. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    @Alamo - I agree 100% on overall strength deterring the AI from attacking.

    I usually build loads of cavalry and have just enough defenders to cover each stack of attackers (3-4 defenders per stack of 8-12 attackers). The one exception to this is when I know the AI has a very large military and I need to deplete it. Then I will put defenders on mountains or something and let the AI kill himself trying to get them out. But I seldom ever do that in a Republic because of the WW.
     
  10. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    Wow, this is practically a chatroom! Got it.
     
  11. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    I agree with droping #2 to #4
     
  12. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    IT --

    All looking good. Russia is growing again -- we may want to clip them at some point.


    960 AD --

    Some barb attacks.

    Chemistry --> Economics (due in 4 @ -4gpt)

    Why did I choose Economics? Because we want Smith's more than we think we do. A large income is key to a diplomatic Victory, since we'll likely be giving away huge amounts of GPT near the endgame.

    Anyway:

    31: Library --> Market
    21: Library --> Aqueduct
    19: Worker --> Aqueduct
    14: Worker --> Aqueduct

    The Chinese begin Bach's.

    970 AD --

    Russia asks us to leave their lands. I sign an RoP with Russia.

    06: Settler --> Settler
    27: Courthouse --> Temple

    980 AD --

    18: Knight --> Temple
    12: Worker --> Temple
    23: Library --> Temple

    50_Augsburg and 51_Wurzburg founded.

    990 AD --

    17: Musketman --> Cathedral
    25: Musketman --> Cathedral
    03: Temple --> Cathedral
    08: Temple --> Aqueduct
    11: Aqueduct --> Temple

    Science to 10% to pull a 290 gp profit (Econ due in 1)

    52_Naumburg founded.

    1000 AD --

    Economics --> Physics (due in 4 @ -6 gpt)

    34: Settler --> Courthouse
    32: Settler --> Temple
    26: Settler --> Temple

    Japan must have discovered Economics the same turn -- they begin Smith's, as do the Chinese :( I guess Smith's will be our fall-back for Bach's.

    1010 AD --

    02: University --> Cathedral
    04: Copernicus's Observatory --> Temple

    We don't get a GA from Copernicus's Observatory. Erm... huh? Sun Tzu's + Copernicus's should have triggered our GA. Wait... NO!!! Copernicus's Observatory IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC WONDER! Damn. Expansionist only. That sucks. That really sucks. We have no Scientific Wonder yet. I guess we'll be trying really hard for Newton's. 25_Canterbury's Cathedral is rushed -- we'll prebuild for Newton's there.

    53_Kiel founded, along with 54_Hildesheim.

    1020 AD --

    22: Market --> Temple
    25: Cathedral --> Heroic Epic (Newton's prebuild)
    05: Temple --> Cathedral
    06: Settler --> Cathedral

    55_Alsace founded.

    1030 AD --

    Russia offers her World Map and 4 gold for our Territory Map.

    Science lowered.

    56_Danzig founded.

    1040 AD --

    Discover Physics. Physics to China for Metallurgy, 41 gpt, 30 gold and their World Map. Start Theory of Gravity, due in 4 @ +34 gpt.

    29: Temple --> Market
    30: Worker --> Temple

    1050 AD --

    45: Musket --> Temple
    28: Market --> Temple
    09: Temple --> Worker

    57_Bergstadt founded.
     
  13. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Summary:

    GA begins next turn. We now have lots of infrastructure and our cities are almost completely happy. Still need a few more cities and lots more workers, but we should only build them in corrupt cities or cities that cannot grow until after the GA ends.

    Initial Thoughts:

    Boy, by score, it doesn’t look good for us. Hopefully I can get Newton built on my turns, or close to it. A GA soon is the only thing that might help a bit. Does that red score for team Kuningas mean that they finished the game?

    1050 AD, preturn We have 51 defensive units and we are building 20 temples. Man that’s a lot. We also have more workers though, and that is wonderful. Note that China has Military Tradition already. Send the boat to get a sword that can pop the GH on the island—got nothing better to do. Maybe we can pop Fission. :) Switch a few size 6 cities that can’t grow to workers, will be followed by aqueducts. Switch lots of temples to aqueducts and markets. Switch some completely corrupt cities building Courts to other things (courts don’t help max corrupt cities prior to C3C). Switch some size 5 cities to aqueducts. The only cities I leave on temple are the ones that might need to build cathedrals later. Rush two markets in very unhappy but large cities. Switch Leipzig to Palace as a prebuild for Suffrage or Darwin.

    1060 AD, 1 Notice we have no knights near Japan: if we get attacked, that is the direction it will probably come from, so I send some up. I send some swords to corrupt cities to disband and move some pikes from the core to the frontiers. I can’t move many because of the English city of reading. We can free up about a dozen troops by eliminating the English, so someone should do that once we have a few more knights or cavalry.

    1070 AD, 2 Sign a ROP with India for 38g and 3gpt. Sign an ROP with China for 74g. Sign a ROP with Japan for maps because he has nothing else to give. I don’t sign ROPs with France or England for now, because we may want to attack them.

    1080 AD, 3 Get TOG, Magnetism due in 4. Switch Bach prebuild to Newton, switch epic to bach, switch palace to smith’s. GH pops barbs. Since everyone is building bach and smith, I don’t feel safe trading TOG until we build Newton. Too important. Trade Liz Education for a worker. Give Cathy education.

    1090 AD, 4 Founded 58 (didn’t feel like researching German beer names)

    1100 AD, 5 Found 59. I think the Russians are about to sneak attack the Japanese. LOL.

    1110 AD, 6 Russians do attack Japanese. Found 60. Pop another hut and get a map. Accidentally end the turn. :(

    IBT We get Magnetism, start Steam due in 7. Thankfully, I am able to scroll through cities to fix happiness. Nationalism is our free tech. Yet another :(. I trade Japan Magnetism, Ivory, Incense and Spice for Military Tradition, Dyes and Gems. Trade China Magnetism and Ivory for Silk and 177g. Trade Ghandi Magnetism for Navigation, his maps and 19gpt. We now have a seriously happy empire. Steam is now due in five because Lux goes to 0%. I wanted to gift Russia into the next age, but I fear they will trade TOG around to the others so I don’t do it.

    1120 AD, 7 We get the Military Academy message, China starts Magellan in Chengdu, many of our cities start celebrating. I don’t think we can beat China to Magellan because we don’t have any powerful coastal cities, so I do not start building it. Guys we don’t have even CLOSE to as many workers as we need with Railroads coming. But I can’t build them now except for in corrupt cities. We don’t want to pull population from our core right before or during our GA. I start moving some workers back towards our core because it is more economically beneficial to build railroads inside to outside. I Upgrade our knights for 180g. :) I upgrade as many Pikes as I can to Rifles.

    1130 AD, 8 The Chinese start Newton!!! I found 61. Well, I can gift Russia into the next age now. She got Nationalism. No help.

    1140 AD, 9 I found 62.

    1150 AD, 10 I found 63. Newton is due next turn so we have it in the bag thank god. Let the Golden Age begin. Finally.

    I concentrated entirely on infrastructure (with a bit of expansion) on my turns and we got a lot of markets and libraries built, along with a few temples and cathedrals. I build some settlers in corrupt cities to fill in the gaps, and cavalry here and there just in case we get sneak attacked. I started Universities in most cities that can produce a lot of beakers.

    For the next player:

    Most of our core cities with low corruption are very happy now. Try to use the GA to finish Universities in them. That way we can easily do 4-turn research for the rest of the game. After that, cathedrals if they don’t already have them and then maybe cavalry and banks.

    Speaking of Cavalry, please don’t build more Riflemen.

    Try to get three settlers up to the small island if you can before the AI. Territory = better score. There are also a few more places for settlers on our continent. Remember, coastal tiles count for score as well as land tiles.

    I doubt we will get Bach or Smith, but the builds may come in handy for Suffrage and TOE.

    I do not envy you the task of setting all the workers to railroading during your turns! Uhgh. Try to railroad the mined squares in our cores before others, especially around the cities building wonders.

    I would get Industrialization for factories, then make a beeline for TOE.


    http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_AD1150_01.SAV
     
  14. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    I'm just catching up - Cop is just expansionist and not scientific - talk about lame! Colossus covers 3 traits, why just 1 for Cops?

    GA next turn! Good job, bradleyfeanor. Next player should be careful to avoid riots in GA, as growth will be faster.

    I guess the score is lower relative to others due to territory. It is just the Firaxis score. All the wonders will give us credit in the Jason score. We should definitely grab the space that's left.

    There are french settlers going for the few free tiles left - on coast near 41 and 42.

    Japan will obviously be our main competitor for chairman, if not the UN builder. We should prepare plans for annexing the Japanese territory.

    Next Player
    ------------
    SensOfWthr
    alamo
    Cuivienen
    bradleyfeanor
    Shoe35
     
  15. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    okay thanks for the advice. got it
     
  16. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    1150AD: Turn 0 Things look good.

    IBT: 01_Berlin Newton’s University -> University; GA begins 06_Heildelberg Cav -> University; 08_Cologne Cav -> University; 43_? Library -> Worker; 49_Steinlager riots hire clown for now; Japan building Mag Voy; Indians building Mag Voy

    1160AD: Turn 1 Hurry Library 57_Bergstadt, and 50_Augsburg, to put a little cultural pressure on the English. Disband pike in 51, move idle workers toward core.

    IBT China and Russia sign a MPP; ROP to Russia; Steam Power -> Industrialization rendering Hanging Gardens obsolete. (forgot about that) Nottingham riots, hire clown; Hamburg Cathedral-> University; Minsk riot hire clown; Oxford riots hire another clown, we need to get Oxford hooked up to the road network. Bonn settler-> Settler; 52 riots clown; 53 riots clown; 57 Library -> Harbor;

    1170AD Turn 2: start workers on railroads; Hurry Library Steinberg; 04 University-> bank?; 29 aqueduct -> Market

    IBT Steinlager Library -> worker (rush); Minsk change market to settler; Moscow Uni->Bank; Lyons Court->Market; Coventry Uni->bank; Minsk Settler-> Market(with help); Grenoble Library -> Harbor (feel free to change.); Frankfurt Aqueduct -> Court; Oxford Worker -> Worker; Bremen Uni -> Bank; Becks Aqueduct -> Market; Steinlager Worker -> Worker; Wurzberg is rioting hire clown; China, Russia MA against Japan; Russia declares on Japan

    1190 AD Turn 4: oops some of that happened between turns 3 and 4 sorry.

    IBT Berlin Uni -> Bank; 45 Aqueduct -> Market;

    1200AD Turn 5: Found 64, laying RR Tracks. No trades yet. MM science to not over spend in that are. (Save have to run an errand)

    okay Back
    IBT England, China sign MA against Japan. England Declares war. Japanese demand Nationalism. Japan is at war with China, England, Industrialization -> Medicine. Science to 50% due in 4. London court -> University; Paris Court -> Market; York University -> Iron Works. 22 University -> Bank; 17 University -> Bank; 07 University -> bank; 28 Aqueduct -> University; 13 University -> Bank; 43 Worker -> Worker; Chinese finish Smith’s; 02 Smith’s -> Universal Suffrage

    1210AD Turn 6: Laying RR Tracks. Trade Japan, get Printing Press, World Map, 50 gp, 41gpt, for Nationalism. Trade Printing Press to China for WM, 9gpt, 70 gp. Trade Printing Press to Russia for 200 gp, 1gpt. Lux to 20% (happiness for score)

    IBT 05: Lost gems: 35 Market -> Worker; Minsk Market-> Worker; Munich Cathedral -> University; 21 Market -> H.E. not sure what to build here so change to suit; 08 Cologne University -> Bank; 14 Market -> University; 26 University -> Bank; 51 Library -> Worker; 52 Library -> Worker(rush); 30 Library -> Worker; 64 Library -> Harbor; French building JS Bach; Japan building JS Bach; Japan building Mag Voy; Indians building JS Bach;

    1220AD Turn 7: Laying RR Tracks

    IBT 03 University -> Bank; 06 University -> Bank; 46 riots hire clown; Oxford riots hire clown; 52 Worker -> Worker; French building Mag Voy;

    1230AD Turn 8: Laying RR Tracks; science 40%; Ivory to Joan for WM and 30 gold; Gems from Japan for Ivory, spice, Incense, wm, 27 gpt. (steep but)

    IBT 36 Market -> Worker; Bonn Settler -> Settler; 23 Aqueduct -> University; 41 Market -> Worker; Add to Palace

    1240AD Turn 9: Laying RR Tracks; Science to 30%; Trade WM around

    IBT Medicine -> Electricity ( in 4); Science 60%; Berlin Bank -> Factory; 04 Bank -> Worker; 20 Market -> Worker; Chinese complete JS Bach; Change Canterbury to Palace for pre-build for TOE;

    1250AD Turn 10: Found 65 -> Library; Med to China for Dyes, 80 gold, 65 gpt, WM; Med to Russia for 490 gold, 45 gpt; Med to Japan for 150 gold, 57 gpt

    Score 1933

    :mad: having trouble with my home connection uploading. will do it in the morning.
     
  17. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Nice turns Shoe! Good job on trading for the luxuries. The price is high and will only get higher, but it is worth it for score.

    Does your post actually say York > Iron Works??? :eek:

    Woohoo! [dance] I can't remember the last time I was able to build that.

    The next player should make developing that city a priority: it will be a wonder/army building machine! :D
     
  18. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    "the next player" is me, I believe. :D

    I can (hopefully) play tonight sometime if Shoe can figure out his upload problems. Alternately, he could just e-mail it to me.
     
  19. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

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    Thanks Sesn.

    I brought the wrong disk to work so I will either upload the save, e-mail it to you or both. As soon as I get home from work
     
  20. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Sounds good, shoe35 - looks like a good building spree. York gets IW - :cool:

    Sorry, SensOfWthr, you get the end-of-GA frown first off.

    Ok, maybe you milkers should give a brief course in managing mood. I thought we got a turn of grace to manage mood w/o governors, but we keep getting riots.

    So how is this suppose to work? When pop grows is the gov is just putting them on the best shield tile? I the gov technically 'on' in some way?

    In the F1 screen a town can have the name in red - that is just when in riot, right? So do you have to scan the faces to make sure the happys outnumber the sads?
     

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