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SGOTM2 Germany - Team Alamo

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Switching sufferage? What did I miss?

    Um, if we attack India and China then basically everybody will be furious with us at the UN vote. China will vote for us if they don't build UN, since they were just fighting Japan. What was India doing during that war?

    I'm not sure I would like to get rid of England, France and/or Russia. They should accept a MPP/ROP eagerly. We should secure that now.

    My proposal:
    - Figure out the guaranteed UN candidate X (Japan or China).
    - Gift/trade techs with civ X to Fission, so they start the UN first.
    - Sign MPP's with everyone else.
    - Plant spy with civ X (war ok if MPP's in place).
    - Watch UN progress so we can declare war just before UN is completed.
    - Wait for attack to trigger MPP's.
    - Capture UN.
    - Call next vote and Win!

    Got it.

    @bf: I put in some extra hours on GOTM, but it should still be <12 hrs. BTW, I discovered that the mood governor is necessary to keep newly captured towns from rioting (lessens chance of flip)!
     
  2. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    OK, I'll field these.

    First, we had discussed swapping the Hoover's/US builds as that will give us Hoover's first, which is the more valuable tech for us. No one else has even started US yet.

    The problem with your course of action is that there is no "clear" UN candidate. If the game ends now, then I believe Japan gets the nod. However China, and to a lesser extent India, are both fairly close and could build the UN, given the tech and a MGL. My thinking was to launch a couple wars, probably on China and India, net some techs, and cripple them. My thinking was that it would allow us to gift Japan up to Fission, with no fear of a "back door" candidate. It would also get us a couple more luxes to boot. If we then monitor, as you say, we can ally everyone against Japan a few turns before it is built. We go in, snatch the UN, while still allied, and call the vote.
     
  3. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    This what I see:

    We're at peace with everyone, no diplo agreements.
    Japan and China at war.
    Japan and England at war.
    Russia has MPP with China (so should be at war with Japan soon).

    Attitude with us:
    Russia/England/France furious
    India annoyed (not trading right now)
    China cautious
    Japan cautious

    Everyone will accept a MPP with us right now.

    We are tech advanced, with about 40 turns to Fission. US in 9, HD in 14 - no competition.

    Mapstat tiles/pop = pct:
    Germany 1098/455 = 45/52
    Japan 382/121 = 16/14
    China 296/135 = 12/16
    India 255/93 = 10/11
    France 165/46 = 7/5
    Russia 48/12 = 2/1
    England 38/6 = 2/1

    UN nominee has to build the UN, or have 25% of the world's tiles, or have 25% of the world's population. So unless a major change occurs, the only UN candidates will be us and the builder.

    We can get silk and dyes from Indian territory alone. How about just attacking India? Ghandi doesn't even have steam power yet!

    Edit: Just submitted GOTM - a bit longer than I expected.

    Game: GOTM 32
    Date submitted: 2004-06-17
    Software Version: PtW 1.27f for Windows
    Entry class: open
    Game status: Diplomatic Victory for Aztecs
    Game date: 1880 AD
    Firaxis score: 4170
    Jason score: 5249
    Time played: 15:00:52
     
  4. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Wow, now that was a post. You just told me a lot about Diplo victory that I did NOT know! :thanx: I looked and looked for that kind of info but could not find it anywhere.

    Could I have some more please? :) Theoretically, if we built the UN on this turn, who would be the other candidate? Would it be Japan or is the other candidate chosen somewhat randomly when none of the other civs have over 25%? I'm not suggesting this for our game, I am just curious in general.

    Congrats on GOTM 32! I should be done with COTM1 in 3-8 turns.
     
  5. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Alamo - you're right, I hadn't even considered the 25% floor limit. That does alleviate some of my worries. India would be nice, right in the middle of the other two for staging purposes ..... :evil:

    BF - IIRC, the candidate would be the civ who came closest to the floor limits if none meet the requirements. However, that would leave an interesting question of who it would be. China has more pop, while Japan has more land. :hmm:
     
  6. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    It's in the civlopedia - next highest pop is the candidate when only 1 qualifies.

    I'll build toward an India campaign, and try to get the invasion force on it's way. How many infantry should we have?
     
  7. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    @Alamo: Oh yeah, the civilopedia. Forgot to look there. :rolleyes:
    Number of infantry depends a lot on the terrain, but I don't have the map to look at right now. I would take 3-4 infantry and >8 cavalry for each stack you plan to attack with. Thats more Infantry than I normally use because War Elephants can be nasty. I like to attack in at least two locations simultaneously because it screwes up the AI so bad. So 2 stacks minimum, more if we have the military/boats available.

    @Sesn: Thanks for the info. I guess the question of who the other candidate will be may come into play after we take the UN...unless, of course, we assimilate one of them. :)

    You and Alamo definitely have more experience than me in Diplo victories, so I am going to defer to your judgement on which path to take. I do have a few questions though. It seems to me that the "Alamo plan" and the "Sesn plan" both have drawbacks--although I am probably just not understanding something.

    Re: Alamo's plan
    Possible problems:

    1) AI MGL could lead to a loss. This is basically the same thing Sesn said/asked earlier: If we leave China and Japan alone right up until the UN is built, couldn't we still lose if a UN builder gets a Military GL?

    2) Majority of AIs may abstain in the votes for many years, leading to a long game and a low score.

    We have already been at war with 3 civs, and the UN builder will make 4. Wouldn't we be better off not attacking India or China so we can be assured of their vote? I understand not killing England or Russia because they are/will be at war with Japan and might be more inclined to give us their vote down the line. However, will not France be more likely to abstain rather than vote for us? It seems we could improve our vote percentage by eliminating France (the last civ we were at war with). Especially if we never declare war on China and India.

    Sesn Plan possible problems:

    1) Same as #2 above. If we attack everyone, aren't they more likely to abstain in the voting for many years?

    Again, I have so little experience with Diplo victories, my worries may be irrelevant. But it would be very educational for me to know how you guys see the vote playing out.
     
  8. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Well, to be honest, my form of diplomacy is usually something like: "give me this or be destroyed!!" :ar15:

    The entire game my "plans" have been based on the assumption that a MA partner was GUARANTEED to vote for you, regardless of the past.

    If that's not true, then we certainly should leave the warpath as much as possible, with the exception of India's luxes. We should start gifting, and signing Rop's to increase attitude.

    If true, then I'm back to beating up China/India, gifting Japan up to Fission, monitoring UN progress, and signing many MA's about five turns from completion. Capture immediately, and call the vote.

    So I guess it boils down to my big assumption. Alamo, I guess you're the man with the answers (hopefully).
     
  9. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    I agree with you on both plans, although on your "peaceful" plan I would also prefer to leave India completely alone (assured vote), and to eliminate the French (assured abstention otherwise).

    I am hoping Alamo's answer leads us down the warpath route: much better score, and far more to my playing style also! It would also eliminate that pesky MGL issue.

    Did any of you peak at the score for the two teams that have finished? If they went with the variant, those are most impressive dates. Hopefully they went for another victory condition. Our graph seems to be getting a bit steeper compared to some other teams: that is promising.
     
  10. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    A MA/MPP partner is not guarateed to vote for you, especially if you have been a bad boy. We have conducted our wars honorably, haven't we? If so we should not have a problem, assuming we can get MA/MPP with everyone else against the UN builder.

    China rushing UN with MGL will be problematic any way we go, since China seems to have better relations with our neighbors than Japan. We can best remedy this situation by giving Japan any tech known to others. If we keep the tech lead and bring Japan along then there will be less incentive for Japan to trade techs around. That is no guarantee, though, as the AI trades techs liberally among themselves.

    I think we can count on the MGL option being unlikely. I'm not even sure how the AI chooses to rush wonders vs build armies.

    What would be ideal is to have Japan start taking Indian cities, then we go in and take them from Japan. Once we have what we want then make peace and gift techs and wait.

    In the GOTM I had to gift one of my cities to Ceasar to save him for the UN vote. That is very convienient to get your buddies nestled inside your empire where you can protect them.

    I also had a very early war with Hiawatha, which was completely forgotten after about 50 turns. I sacked one of his unguarded expansion cities - the 4th or 5th.
     
  11. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    @Alamo: From what you just said, it appears we will get the votes of France, Russia and England. That being the case, it seems we should just attack India and China until they are completely eliminated. That way their abstention votes can't keep us from getting a majority, and the MGL problem will not be an issue.

    Is that a plausible plan or am I missing something here?
     
  12. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Yes!! KILLKILLKILL!

    :ar15: :evil: :spank: :hammer: :sniper: :drool:

    :joke: (kinda)
     
  13. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Well, it makes more sense to eliminate France than India, but India has something we want.

    I will see if the war widens and if Japan makes any headway. We should be close to invasion by the end of my turn.
     
  14. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    Sign ROP with Joan,Liz and Mao. Sci/Lux to 50/20 for RP in 3.

    Japan has taken a Russian city on our continent - excellent!

    IT: Russia declares war on Japan. GA ends.

    1305AD(1) - RR work. RP in 3, again. HD in 19, US in 13 now.

    IT: Japan takes Yokohama.

    1310AD(2) - RR. Start rifles (infantry)

    IT: Japan takes Matsuyama.

    1320AD(3) - Corp in 4. We've got a ton of money - u/g 29 pike, 13 rifles, 2 muskets to inf.

    IT: India declares on England - MA with Japan. England wants embargo - we sign.

    1335AD(4) - More RR network - connecting cities first.

    IT: No boundary changes.

    1340AD(5) - Start refinery. Sci/Lux to 80/20 for RF in 4. RR network almost complete. Gift ivory to Cathy and Joan. Need to surround Liz's 2cnd city - Jap Longbows approach.

    IT: Japan renegotiates - Ivory+Incense+Indust=Gems+Wines+Wmap+90g. China razes Omi.

    1345AD(6) - RR. Decide to stage troops for India campaign. 5 inf+27 cav on 8 galleons set sail.

    IT: French want MPP - declined. Dyes lost - from China.

    1350AD(7) - RR. Jap longbows out of English territory. Troops 1 move away from landing.

    IT: Japan takes Nagasaki - China out of mid-continent.

    1355AD(8) - Expanding roads to resources, railing factory cities. Troops ready to land - declare war on Ghandi! 32 troops land to overlook Karachi defended by spear! Sci/Lux to 40/20 for Refining in 2 - want 2000g for Wall St interest next turn.

    IT: China wants MA vs Japan - sorry! Fend off 3 cavs - 2 elite inf.

    1360AD(9) - Loose 1 cav capturing Karachi.

    IT: US complete! Karachi pacified. Warrior approaches...

    1365AD(10) - Hurry lib in Karachi to get dyes in border. Need to hurry harbor next! Sci/Lux to 50/20 for Steel in 6.

    Summary:

    Japan at war w/Mao,Cathy,Liz.
    We're at war w/Ghandi.
    We should protect Reading from Jap Longbows, in case Norwhich gets sacked.
    Hurry harbor in Karachi to get new lux items.
    Keep treasury ABOVE 2000g to get the full benefit of Wall St (200gpt)
    Hoover in 5 - Berlin should build military academy next.

    SAVE
     

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  15. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Nice turns Alamo! I believe Cuivienen is next, correct?

    @ Sesn: :rotfl:

    I can so relate to your philosophies...

    I finished COTM1, and in under 40 hours. My actual playing time was around 26-30. [dance]

    Final stats: Domination in 770 AD.
    Firaxis score 5266
    Jason score 10720
    Play time 37:32

    That's a really good game for me. The bad news is that Megalou finished with domination 2 turns before me, and darkness finished 1 turn earlier. If I hadn't made a few tactical errors I could possibly have had a medal. :aargh:

    Oh well, my goal was to break the top 10, and that is still a possibility (fingers crossed).
     
  16. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Looks like a :goodjob: is owed to each of you.

    Three techs down the line, and some dyes to make pretty clothes. Looks like we'll be waiting around for Japan to finish their UN build if things keep moving quickly.

    I didn't get to play COTM1, but those certainly look like some good numbers to me.
     
  17. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    Thanks Sesn. I look forward to your competition in COTM2! I have a sense we will both be leaning heavily toward :ninja:. What do you think?

    We need to start planning one of the most difficult things in all of Civ: a wonder cascade. If we can get Japan started on a wonder, and then time our own build of the same wonder, we could flop then to the UN and shave many turns off our vicory date. It is difficult to do, but could add a lot to our score if we can pull it off.

    First, we need to determine exactly when fission will become available. Second, we need to decide which is the best wonder to use for the ruse. Third, (and I expect Sesn will like this part), we need to position our troops outside the city that will flop to building the UN.
     
  18. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    Hey, the way I see it, there is no greater victory than complete and utter decimation. Forgive me if I go a bit over the top sometimes.

    As far as the wonder cascade, that's quite an intruiging proposition. The problem is which wonder to use. Which ones are even available? Hoover's might otherwise be a good one, but we're almost done with it. I can't even think of another one that would help us before SETI and the UN. Has anyone discovered Free Artistry yet? Is that even a tech/wonder in PTW? I would say that if we figured an average of five turns per tech, that would give us some room, as we're running 4 turns now.
     
  19. bradleyfeanor

    bradleyfeanor King

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    I think you are right. If we can set up a cascade it will probably have to be using Shakespeare (which is in PTW).
     
  20. alamo

    alamo bang!

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    China has Democracy, and is probably working on Free Artistry. Shakespear is a 400 shield wonder. Japan does not have a big shield city near the capital, so the cascade would probably work well.

    Good job on COTM1, bradleyfeanor!

    Next Player
    ------------
    SensOfWthr
    alamo
    Cuivienen
    bradleyfeanor
    Shoe35

    Player priorities:
    1 - Good relations with everyone except India
    2 - Protect Reading from Tokugawa (easier than Norwich).
    2 - Grab additional lux from India (need harbor).
    3 - Eliminate Ghandi, if possible (friendly with Tokugawa).
    4 - After steel, trade Demo to Toku (if needed) - trade Mao Spice+Saltpeter+SciMeth = Demo+??g
    5 - Reseach Free Artistry and trade to Toku, then back to Motorized
    6 - Keep treasury above 2000g for Wall St income (+200g)
    7 - Secure borders at home and abroad for eventual war w/Japan
     

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