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SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    SGOTM2 Game Thread

    Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

    Here is the start position.


    Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

    You can download your save file >>HERE<<.

    The Roster
    Genghis Khan
    gm1pooh
    mrTweed
    scoutsout
    Tallanas
     
  2. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Go go Team Scout!

    I assume scoutsout is our skipper, so will await turn orders from you... I should be available over the weekend plenty, so will have time to discuss the opening moves.


    Tal

    *edit* Having said that, I'm off to play cricket! Back in 8 hours when you Yanks will just be getting up :)

    *edit 2* spelling - I'd just woken up!
     
  3. mr Tweed

    mr Tweed Chieftain

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    hello team scout, it is a honour and a pleasure to be in a team for the sgotm2 and i am much looking foward to it, now has any1 given any thought to the task in hand with a monarch game we can start to tailor our game from the beginning for the victory condition we would like to meet. a modern age conquest victory with panzers would be cool as would the sponsored varient of the diplo victory as its so ungerman well unprussian anyhow, the start position is quite a strong one and can be tuned into 1 of 3 situations very quickly. 1) rush pottery-build 2 spearmen then a granary then 2 settlers, then a settler evry 4or 5 turns . 2) sprog a couple of settlers for expansion the get as many ancient age wonders as possible i reckon we could get 3 or 4. 3)sprog settlers then a big ole stack of archers and rush towards the nearest enemy.
    anyway i look foward to discussing this over the coming month or so i do not mind in which order i play although im a pretty good opener. I will trust scout's judgement as team leader and be subservient .
    ps.Tallanas who u calling a yank?! lols im a limey 2 just like u
     
  4. Gengis Khan

    Gengis Khan Deity

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    Gengis reporting for duty, sir! :weneedasalutesmiley:

    Our start is decent. The 2 BGs and the forest helps, but I have a feeling we're going to see alot of jungle to the south. And it looks like we have the ocean to the NW. I'd send the worker 1 tile east first before deciding whether to settle or not.

    I'll await scout to check in before we start seriously getting into our plans for world domination.


    Joy! Not one but 2 cricket playing, tea drinking islanders for me to make fun of! J/K guys.:D
     
  5. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    Hello and welcome team! I am really looking forward to this game!

    I apologize for the length and tone of this post, but before we get too much into strategizing and discussing the game, we should probably go over some "housekeeping items". I really hate to start things off on a serious note, but if we go through this one time up front, then hopefully we won't have to bring this stuff up again. Rules: :ack:

    Mad-Bax posted some general SGOTM rules >> >Here< <<. A lot of this has to do with administering the game.

    One rule I'd like to touch on is the "24-72" rule. The idea here is that when someone finished their turns, the next player should post a "Got It" within 24 hours, and play their turns within 72 hours of the "got it". Since we have at least one college student in the game, I'd like to relax that to 36-72±. If you can't get to the thread every single day, try not to skip 2 whole days. This is important for playing and discussion. If you have a big exam coming in 3 days, that's fine. You can either request a skip or we can wait an extra day until you can play your turns. Just please don't go AWOL/MIA and make me auto-skip anybody.

    Scout's Rule #1: Participate in discussion.
    Scout's Rule #2: Regent level players must not withhold suggestions.

    Even if a suggestion is not used, we can analyze it and learn from it. But I'm betting that somewhere along the line one of our "Regent Level Comrades" is going to offer a useful perspective, or catch something the rest of us missed.

    More Rules: This game is to be played to Mad-Bax's interpretation of RBCiv rules. The "Spirit" of RBCiv rules is simple: If it feels like cheating, it probably is. Here is some good Background on RBCiv Rules, with a nice evaluation of tactics and exlpoits here, and a list of specifically disallowed exploits.

    As I have gotten into GOTM and SGOTM in the last 2 months, I have learned much about what I call the "ethics" of Civ gameplay. Ironically, several War Academy articles explain in great detail how to use exploits that are disallowed in games like these. There are two specific differences between RBCiv rules and Game of the Month Rules that I'd like to point out: Palace Jumping and Ship Chaining. These are specifically allowed in GOTM, and disallowed under RBCiv (and here).

    A more basic form of cheating: Reloading. There are specific circumstances when it's allowed (and one specific circumstance in which I will encourage it). If your game crashes, or if you "mis click" (meant to move the warrior NE, NE, N, and fumbled it to N, N) then you are probably okay to load from the last save. Be sure to duplicate your original moves as closely as possible, so as not to hose up the RNG.

    One other valid reason for reloading: If any one of us gets to a critical juncture in the game (new tech discovered, big stack of AI troops show up, or maybe you're just not sure what to do next) you may save the game at that point, log on to this thread, and ask your teammates for advice.

    The key here is not backing up to try to get a different result from one you've already gotten. If your archer dies in a battle, tough cookies, it's part of the game. Don't reload the game to re-fight the battle until the archer wins.

    "Keeping Honest People Honest" - this month's SGOTM saves will be submitted through a similar process that GOTMs are submitted through. Now, I don't know everything that those GOTM staffers can do when they analyze a saved game, but I do know from one older public discussion that they can analyze "turns per session". If the "turns per session" in a Succession game is any number other than 10, they're going to know it, and wonder. So...

    Scout's rule #3: If you play a set of turns any other way than ten in a row, note it in your turnlog.

    "Spoiler Information": Spoilers are things that reveal information to you that you should not have at a given point in the game. At this point, we should not really know what's outside that settler's nine-tile radius, or where the iron/saltpeter/rubber are. This is a little tricky with this game, because this particular start is rather famous. Cracker analyzed it in his "Opening Moves" site, which is excellent stuff. Like Gengis, I remember jungles to the south... having said that, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Mad-Bax tinkered with this map to de-value the spoiler information.

    One related problem is that we can access other teams' sites. I can't prevent any of you from surfing another team's thread, but I can say this:

    Scout's rule #4: If you gain access to spoiler information, particularly about other teams' games, don't post it here. I'd rather not even discuss other teams' scores and progress here. Let's just focus on our game.

    Again, I apologize for the length and tone of this post. Hopefully that'll be the last of my "pompous team leader stuff'. :king:

    Now let's have some fun! :hammer:

    Major Edit: Just received a polite PM reminding me of a rule change from SGOTM1. We are prohibited from surfing other teams' threads. And I think they can track this with the new forum upgrade...
     
  6. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    And now, for something totally different...

    What are the team's thoughts on the variant? Do we want to give it a shot? :D
     
  7. mr Tweed

    mr Tweed Chieftain

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    well all your rules seem fine scout, and il abide by them as for the variant i vote no who wants diplomacy when u got panzers. and as for genghis i do drink and like tea yes but i cant stand cricket its ffing boring nearly as bad as baseball but not quite. :)
     
  8. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    *splutter*

    I think you just made yourself an honourary Yank...

    Anyway! Back to Civ. First up, I have no problem with playing by the rules, and in fact, I had never heard of or even imagined most of those exploits. So, I have no problem with playing fair. Aggressive, i think is ok, if we want, since we are playing Germany - when the AI plays Germany, they are a "nightmare neighbour" so I see no problem with us wanting to see our Panzers parading through the streets of foreign capitals :)

    Second, I thank you for encouraging us to participate in discussions, Scout. So here come my thoughts!

    1) The site looks pretty decent - 2 BG, river for size 6+, some forests for quick shields via lumberjacking... And gold maybe, if we need some quick corruption free cash or knowledge. So, we could just plonk ourselves down straight away.

    2) Siting the city immediately might tell us where we should improve first with the worker... It looks like there might be a lot of work, so each turn might be very valuable - no wasting settler moves running all over. That said, I think GK's idea of moving the settler [Bah - I meant worker - Ed] one East, then mining/roading is a strategy that can't miss.

    3) I looked at Cracker's article a while ago, but I can only remember the theory, not the specifics. However, that jungle to the southeast looks ominous, as do the forested hills and mountains to the northeast. Are we being forced west? I would like to know if that's a coast or a lake! It's a shame some of the early legends of our Germanic people don't refer to the "Endless Sea" or "Lake Miniscule" :)

    4) Other than that, I'd like to see some early scouting units getting up on those mountains to give us a look around - I want most of all to know where this river we are on starts and finishes. It would be nice to get a few more city sites with fresh water.


    Ok, so none of that was revolutionary! But it's a start, I hope!


    A question for you guys, which I think is important. Play-styles.

    Are you aggressive warmongers who never build wonders, or are you more like me, going for a balance of military/culture/science/Wonders?

    The reason I ask is that we should all try to play with a TEAM playstyle. There is nothing to be gained by having a government with a multiple personality issue!

    Looking forward to this more and more!


    Tal
     
  9. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Sorry for double post!

    Re variant... Hmm... I'm dubious. A diplomatic victory without the UN? I'm not sure I understand... :confused: However, if one of you can explain to me, then if it sounds like the team as a whole would benefit, then fine.

    But if the new guys to succession games would benefit more from a more normal game, it's probably wiser to do that. Two or three of us are new to this (SGOTM), so maybe we don't want to try to run before we can walk. Actually, it might be like trying to triple jump before we can walk :eek:

    Tal
     
  10. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Triple post :)

    Subscribing to the thread...
     
  11. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    @ Tallanas: Lots of good stuff in your posts. One little thing - I believe GK was talking about moving the worker, not the settler. This is a common technique used by stronger players. Move the worker to the tile you think you'll want him to improve first, and see if he sees something that warrants moving the settler...

    @ Gengis: correct me if I'm 'putting words in your mouth'

    On the warmonger v. wonder thing - I generally find the early game a lot easier without building wonders. Even in builder mode, you'd be surprised how much science (and culture) you can generate by building "Library" instead of "Great Library".

    I'm not opposed to building an ancient age wonder, but I'd want a good reason to do so. I think the most under-rated ancient wonders are Colossus and the Great Lighthouse, the most over-rated are the Great Library and the Pyramids.

    On the variant - I don't think it will be harder than playing the game straight. This particular variant will come into play so late in the game that the whole team will be ready for it (if we go that route).

    I will say this - I think those who think the U.N. must be captured in order to win the variant are mistaken. There are ways to guarantee your civ is a candidate when the vote is called, and ways to all but guarantee a win.

    I'll go you one better - I think it's entirely possible to win the variant version of this game without ever firing a shot in anger with the Panzers.
     
  12. qm1pooh

    qm1pooh Sailor Man

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    Just checking in so ya'll know I am still alive.
    I've studied Cracker's moves way too much, but I still think that we can work on this start ( even though I like the NW :) )
    Anyway, good to talk w/ all of ya'll, and if any of the European folk are coming down for the big football extravaganza let me know.
    I promise a better strategy posting tomorrow after the wonderful Alentejo wine this evening has worn off a little :)
     
  13. qm1pooh

    qm1pooh Sailor Man

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    And just a quick thing...
    qm1 means "QuarterMaster First Class, USN." For citizens of the United Kingdom, you might know me as " Petty Officer." I know, it might seem a little out of bounds, but when Mad-Bax referred to me as gm1 ( Gunner's Mate), I said to myself, "that's what you get for being one of the smallest ratings in the Navy!"
    If you are into the whole brevity thing, Q is fine.
     
  14. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    My bad! Said settler, meant worker... It was late when I posted that :)

    And Q, apologies for getting your handle wrong in the other thread - we're all at it! I just mistook the small letter q for a g... Rest assured, we shall all now call you Q - or Mr Q if we are being polite :D

    Re variant - well, if you think it will be interesting, then I am happy to go for it, as long as we are all clear on the types of diplomatic behaviour we will need to adhere to throughout the game so that we have the best chance of schmoozing our way to the top late on.

    Tal
     
  15. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    An excellent point. There are a lot of "little things" that are fun, but will bite you in the diplomatic arena. If we decide to pursue the variant, Gengis and I will work on a list of 'don'ts' to avoid problems when we reach that stage of the game.

    The way I see it, we wouldn't play the game much differently until we hit the mid industrial ages. By that time, we should be pretty well in synch as a team; which is why I don't think the variant will be any 'harder'.
     
  16. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    It sounds like it should be fun then.

    And hopefully, we will still be able to have some early wars for leader generation - I doubt it will be at all possible to build any great wonders early without the help of a leader. I think you are right, Scout, about the valuable wonders. It is rarely that useful to get the Great Library, and the best thing about it is the high culture rating, not something that will particularly help in this game, unless culture has some secret effect on diplomacy that I don't know about...
     
  17. Gengis Khan

    Gengis Khan Deity

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    Yep, ment the worker. He'll scout & go over to our best tile at the same time.

    About the variant: I'm all for it if the team decides to go that way. The question then becomes are we just going for the variant, or are we going for the fastest diplo win possible & the gold laurel?

    About my playstyle: I like to think of myself as walking that fine line between builder/warfare, everyone else tells me to stop kidding myself, I'm a warmonger through & through.

    Any thoughts on initial research path or turn order?

    [edit- And correct me if I'm wrong, but we're playing vanilla right?]
     
  18. qm1pooh

    qm1pooh Sailor Man

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    It'll have to be Vanilla for me, as I don't own PTW or C3C.

    I agree with Scout on the possibility for the variant. I believe we should value the Scientific trait a little more than the Militaristic in this game, keep the research chugging along in a steady manner, and be the tech trading wizards of the world. That's good solid gameplay in any case, especially while we're working towards the IA.

    Worker to the east first definitely. I would say beeline to pottery, then by that point hopefully our scouts will have popped techs from huts or gotten us contact for trade to go for a good second tier tech. If not, we could go for the Wheel, then try for HBR to trade around a bit.

    For turn order, my weakness is definitely city placement, so I would probably enjoy having one of the better dotmappers before me for guidance. I'm ready to go whenever everyone else is.
     
  19. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    Now, what fun would it be if we didn't at least try for the gold? :mischief:

    What we know: We've got 6 AI, and 3 continents. If we can kick 4 AI off the planet, consolidate 2 continents, and stay under the domination limit, then I say we do so. If we can cut things down to 2 AI and us by the industrial era, we can control this game. We would probably be better served by having an even number of AI in the game, so there are an odd number of UN votes at endgame.

    My general thoughts: we play the early stages of the game in a rather staightforward, domineering style. We find out who is on our continent, and we kick them off. Get some 'suicide galleys' out and make contact ASAP.

    Sometime in the industrial era, we shift gears, and let go of our desire to dominate the tech race. We don't want to empty their treasuries with any tech lead we might get. Trade them tech for tech, but one AI will likely be able to get that "one degree of separation" if we let them, and we will let them. We'll even give some techs away if we have to. (Gifting techs is the fastest and surest way to improve AI attitude...)

    The idea is to get that AI (hopefully we'll get a Persia or Greece type civ left at endgame) and get them to Fission (and building UN) ASAP. If there are 2 civs left, and both start building UN, it becomes a simple matter to figure out which will complete the UN, and we just buddy-up to the other.
    We should be prepared for only one AI on our starting landmass. I'm thinking Pottery>Iron>beeline to Map Making. But I'm open to suggestion, and this would change if we met 2 or 3 civs on our starting continent.

    For order of play, right now these are my thoughts:

    Gengis
    Tallanas
    mr Tweed
    scoutsout
    qm1pooh

    I'm thinking our 2 Regent level guys might be more comfortable following you and me GK. I also think we should lead with our strongest player, and that'd be you. (I'm going to check to see if the lead player can start with 20 before we go to the standard 20-turn rotation...)

    IIRC, 3 of our team signed up for 'either', and two said 'vanilla', so we're playing this in Vanilla.

    What does the team think about all this?
     
  20. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    I think we will be best served with a little between-turnset discussion between every set of turns for the first round or two of turns. Though I don't think this needs to turn into a Training Day Game, it will be good from the standpoint of "team building" and getting everybody "singing from the same sheet of music" as far as strategy goes...

    I'm going to shut up for a bit and let some other teammates get a word in edgewise.. :D
     

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