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SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, May 15, 2004.

  1. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    You could have your UNC Ram wielding the Spoon :) I'm sure if you speak nicely to Lyonesse, she'll sort it...

    "Got it"

    Got no money, but got the save ;)
     
  2. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

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    I'm kinda fond of this

     
  3. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    :lol:

    Awesome!
     
  4. Gengis Khan

    Gengis Khan Deity

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    That's freaking awsome! Consider it ganked. ;)
     
  5. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    :rotfl: my A$$ off!
     
  6. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

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    Let me work on it a bit or bring it to Lyonesse to clean up a bit first though

    Edit: actually thats the best I can get it. I suggest the Lyonesse route.
     
  7. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    Great round, GK. [A thumbs-up smiley would go here if the new reply form weren't playing its tricks.]
     
  8. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    OK, done my pre-flight but going to play in the morning to make sure I'm fully with it ;)
     
  9. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    A few points:

    1. GK, if you preferred to use all our workers to develop our position rather than merging any of them, no problem. But I don't like it that we've stopped producing workers in Nuremberg and Hannover, effectively abandoning the worker-merging program when it can still help us a lot. We'll be leaving a lot of gold on the table if we tolerate first-ring cities below size twelve any longer.

    Accordingly, I think we should let Nuremberg complete its university, switch Hannover's 35-turn factory build (probably useless, given the rate at which we're acquiring the remaining techs) to a settler, and then return both cities to their roles as size 5-6 worker pumps. The settler from Hannover could in principle be merged, but probably we should just hold onto it, since we'll want some settlers for tactical purposes in the final offensive.

    2. In the same spirit, I think we can get more benefit from Tallatown, Talsburg, and Mistburg by just letting them spit out a worker every ten turns, as Funfkirchen is doing, than by having them work on aqueducts they probably won't finish in the time remaining.

    3. I'm glad to see that we're building artillery in towns with no useful city improvements to build until hospitals. Hamburg, Heidelburg, and Cologne will soon join this category.

    4. We need to start considering the mechanics of how we're going to get the UN built by the right AI civ. This is just a first thought, but I'd suggest that once we get Fission, we should look into the Russians' front-line cities (which conveniently are also their best ones) every turn, or as often as necessary, and give them Fission when a nearby city which could compete the UN quickly is about to finish its build. This would make it reasonably likely that they'd begin the UN in our chosen city on the next turn--although they might of course start the Manhattan Project in the good city, and the UN in a bad one. So if possible, we might want to give them Fission only when two desirable UN cities are about to finish their builds. The fact that the UN and the MP become available at the same time is a real complication here--if the inventors of the variant thought of this, I :worship: their devious minds.
     
  10. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    @ Northern Pike - you touched on something that has been in the back of my mind for some time - the Manhattan Project.

    We need a really good pre-build for the MP... so that we can take it out of the build queues. If we can complete it before giving away fission, that would be a Good Thing.

    On another note, when we hit the Modern Age... oh man - I just had a really ugly thought... what if Cathy gets computers for a free tech? We're going to need LOTS of factories, and LOTS of Panzers...

    If there is a way we can fix it so that we're not attacking Mech Infantry, that would be another Good Thing...
     
  11. Gengis Khan

    Gengis Khan Deity

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    With no insult ment in any way shape for form, I think you're overlooking one very substantial point........ We have 50 workers, and each one is capable of laying a railroad now in 2 turns, not counting the 10+ slaves we have running around. The majority of our work is going to be completed in the next 15 or so turns anyways, there's really(IMHO) no reason to build more workers. I think I got as much done in upgrading our land in the 3(?) turns after Rep Parts as I did in the previous 8 or 9 turns.

    Workers at 200%(rep parts) + 50%(Demo) = some really freaking speedy workers.

    This(and scouts MP post) bring up an intresting point we'll have to decide on:

    Should we groom a Civ, even to the point of picking out a city we want it built in, and give them only fission........... Or should we spread it to the world and whoever can build it the quickest gets us beating down their doors?

    The first obviously has it's advantages that taking the UN will be much easier(and probably quicker) when we can control the city it gets built in, however what if they don't start it in that city right away? What if they put it off in all their cities for awhile?(yes, I know the AI is wonder obsessed. But when the game hangs in the balance I always plan for worst case senario) Is grooming the civ of coice worth the extra time?

    The second obviously has it's disadvantage, who builds the UN will be pot luck, we won't really know until everyone starts it. However it has some big advantages at the same time. Whoever starts it in the most productive city will get it done the quickest. Time is key, us racing through techs just to have everyone not build the UN for 50 turns after fission will kill us.

    I'm definatly leaning towards the second plan, we can still investigate those UN cities so we'll know who's getting it(and just as importantly the exact turn they are). If nessasary we can start building some caravels/galleons in our coastal cities to upgrade to transports, and with us being at peace right before that we won't need much(if any) of a defense fleet. We can safely sail our fully loaded transports right outside their border and the turn before they complete it, declare war, move in and unload our troops. Who cares if our boats get shot to @#$%, it was a one way trip to begin with. The key is that once Fission hits the scene we need the UN completed ASAP.

    I'm of the oppinion that the Manhattan won't even come into play, so us building it will be unnessasary. Granted the majority of my games don't make it to the Modern Age, but the AI doesn't normally go all out for Manhatten. And the last thing we want right now is nukes on the scene, that could get ugly real quick.
     
  12. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    @NP and GK: Watching our team's two strongest players debate is giving me a serious case of the snickers... trust me when I say, I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing near you. :D

    The strategic question: How to get the UN built ASAP

    The tactical question: How to take it once it's built....

    I've got some reading to catch up on....

    @Tal, Mistfit: This is a Monarch level game, that you guys have survived to the industrial age. You're no longer Regent level players, get over it. But Monarch level players don't get to withhold ideas here either... :p
     
  13. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    GK, no insult taken; I'm glad we're debating these issues, and of course I agree that our workers are very capable now. But:

    1. This is monarch, and it's not hard to keep citizens happy, so why be unambitious about how much population we want in our cities? It would be great, though it may not now be possible, to have our good cities at an average size of sixteen when we begin researching Fission. That would involve about eighty more worker merges, I think. I may not have emphasized this sufficiently, but the real power of worker-merging as a strategy emerges when it's done a lot.

    2. The rigid plan of first making all our tile improvements, and then merging most of our workers all at once, would leave us suffering from all the present population inefficiencies--a fine city like Salzburg at size nine, for example--for too much longer. The needless waste represented by undersized cities will only increase when our GA arrives in three turns. We need to resume merging now, while we're still engaged in improving our territory, so the production of more workers is definitely in order.

    Turning to the UN question:

    3. GK, your plan and mine needn't be seen as absolute alternatives, in that we can take our best shot at getting the Russians to build the UN where we want it and then give everybody Fission if that doesn't work. I have to say, though, that the latter approach seems to me to multiply the worst-case scenarios to which you refer, not reduce them. With the "groom Russia" plan, essentially one thing can go wrong--that the Russians won't feel like starting the UN in a good city when they could--and it's quite unlikely. With most or all of the AI civs gifted into the MA, any d___ thing could go wrong--the UN could end up in Delhi or Canton guarded by mech inf, nukes could come into play, whatever.

    4. A real question, not a rhetorical one ;)--can we be confident that we'll be offered a vote the moment we capture the UN? I haven't captured it enough to be sure. But if this isn't a 100% certainty, then an ongoing war with Russia would be much easier to manage (in fact we'd just crush them) than an overseas war based on a one-shot expeditionary force we couldn't reinforce.

    5. Scoutsout, I like your idea of pre-building the Manhattan Project a lot, though of course it's much more consistent with a groom-Russia plan than a Fission-for-all approach (in which case it might be dangerous, as GK says).

    6. Just a random thought--I hope the competition between teams isn't decided by who gets Fission as a free tech. Not likely, I suppose.
     
  14. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    I hope so too. The vanilla players are at a disadvantage playing the variant since all the scientific civs will get rocketry (probably). It's something I didn't take into account when setting up the game. Hopefully the winners will be the team that plays the best game and uses the most creative method to take control of the UN.

    I'm waiting to see what the teams will do if the civ that actually builds the UN calls a vote. :mischief:
     
  15. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Great debate guys. Some really good stuff to get my teeth into before starting my turns, which, incidentally, I'm about to do. Expect a turn log in a couple of hours...

    I must say that I do plan to do some worker merging, especially since GK seems to have done a hell of a lot of improvements anyway... I am also going to finish up his Army Modernisation Plan!

    Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

    Regarding plans to get a specific city to build the UN. I say Yes to this, and Yes to Russia. Like GK and NP have said, if it goes wrong, just giving Fission around to all is a back up plan. But regardless of whether Russia get Mech Inf, they are so small we can crush them, surely... Better that it's in Moscow than Beijing...

    Back soon...
     
  16. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Pre-flight... Check Scoutsburg, swap to a Worker and rush it. Change Hannover to Settler, for more worker builds next turn.

    Press Enter

    IBT - French ship hovering near Talsburg...

    Turn 1 - 1270 AD

    Dortmund>Bank; some more artillery builds; rather oddly, Scoutsburg riots, then produces a Worker and so has 2 content faces in it... Ah well...

    Salzburg gets a worker boost, arty in 3 turns instead of 4... Upgrade some veteran rifles to infantry, probably the most cost effective way to improve military strength (4.6.1 to 6.10.1 for 20 gold...)

    IBT - nothing

    Turn 2 - 1275 AD

    Lots of worker stuff, I am trying to alternate improving the tier 1 cities and merging, so that the merged workers have good squares to work. With RCP4 it's getting fairly cramped up by the FP...

    Some more artillery builds.

    IBT - Dammit!! Cathy has obviously been snooping on our thread, as she has requested an MPP - Mods, please stop her doing this ;) I give her 10 gold, tell her not to spend it all at once, and then decide to enfranchise women. Boy, I'm benevolent this year! The German Golden Age has begun! Production in Berlin rockets to a huge 71 shields per turn :eek:

    Turn 3 - 1280 AD

    Turn science down to 50%, radio still due to arrive in 2 turns... Income per turn up to 505gpt. This could get messy - some towns have got more production than they can handle, and our science has gone nuts :)

    Much more work around the FP ring. Railroads around Leipzig just shaved 15 turns off the next pop increase... Now worker merges will be able to support themselves up to size 12. This is the general approach I am taking now...

    The economy...
     

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  17. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    Here's Berlin. Note that it can build the Hoover Dam in 12...
     

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  18. Tallanas

    Tallanas Gunboat Diplomat

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    IBT - Wines deal expires. Japan wants Electronics to renew... Hmm, no. What's annoying about this is that it's an in-between turn deal, so now we have no wines, and I imagine that every single size 12 city is about to riot... :(

    Turn 4 - 1285 AD

    Yep. The Golden Age begins with the Great Booze Riots of 1285... :mad: Berlin, Konigsberg, Frankfurt, Munich, Bremen, Salzburg, Brandenburg, New Berlin, New Heidelberg and New Munich are plunged into chaos. That Tokagawa is going to pay. Maybe not in this life, but surely in another game!!

    The crafty fellow knows he has the only spare luxury in the world, and therefore he is playing hardball... He will accept 1) Coal or 2) 50gpt

    Decide to give him the cash, as moving our lux slider 10% costs us 150gpt rather than 50, and hopefully he will research something... I also don't like giving away our last spare coal...

    Spend the rest of the turn dreaming of seeing Panzers marching through Tokyo whilst doing Worker stuff. Tax slider to 60%, Radio in one, 660gpt...

    IBT - Order restored, decide to go for The Corporation - I no longer want to trust the AI to do anything sensible, and it comes in 4 turns at +469gpt, which is 50% tax...

    Turn 5 - 1290 AD

    More pollution to clear up, lots more work to do! Some merges, some improving. More upgrading.

    IBT - I must be cursed. Seriously. New Cologne culture flips to the French, obviously overcome by the smell of cheese and garlic wafting across the water from Cherbourg... :rolleyes: I guess there should have been more than just one spearman in it... To compensate, we get a new source of saltpeter...

    Turn 6 - 1295 AD

    Move 3 regular infantry to New Hannover, and pray that's enough to keep these sodding Francophile agents provocateurs in check...

    IBT - Some good news, Wall Street is built in Munich. Income immediately jumps to 516gpt after science. And now more weedy play from me, as everyone and their dog has the Corporation... :blush: Immediately switch to sanitation, for the following reason - I know that the research on the Corp is lost, but if we can swap Sanitation for The Corp, then it effectively makes Sanitation a 2 turn tech... Science to only 40%, Sanitation in 4, and 684 gpt.

    Turn 7 - 1300 AD

    Lots more merging - around Berlin, the 1st tier cities are 12, 12, 12, 12, 11 (growing next turn), and 11 (max size at the moment). Around New Berlin, we have 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, 10 and 6 - the last 2 are getting rapid food production improvements, then merges.

    At this point I save, and try to recover my form with a break. Some unlucky stuff there, but also some bad decisions, so I am going to stick my head in a bucket of ice water for a while... :rolleyes:
     
  19. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

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    @ Tal - IBT Extortion is the worst. Happened to me 2 times (to the same effect) in Gotm31

    Ok some thoughts: (note to scout it's not that I am afraid of commenting I just don't have good internet access overnight 6:00A-6:00p is my time on this forum - work hours :lol: )

    I think prebuilding the manhatten project is a bad idea: This is a 800 sheild wonder that allows all civs to have nukes. As far as I can tell we want to delay nukes as long as possible so why build it for everyone.

    The UN is a 1000 shield wonder. Does Russia have a city that can build this wonder quickly?

    As far as I can tell we have 7 techs until the Modern times. We need to decide when to stop giving them away.
     
  20. Mistfit

    Mistfit Deity

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    Sorry for the double post but we had the discussion on timing of UN votes on GK's TDG I believe it was decided that it takes place 10 or 11 turns after you own it so we will have to make sure that the city we take does not flip or get retaken for that long.
     

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