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SGOTM5 - Team tao

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team tao.

    Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

    Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


    Here is the start position.



    Map Parameters
    Playable Civ - Russia
    World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
    Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
    The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

    Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

    The original GOTM23 Announcement.
    The Constitution
    The GOTM Reference Thread.
    SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread

    This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

    1. You may never build a settler.
    2. You must win by conquest victory condition.
     
  2. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Checking in.

    I remember another OBC sucession game awhile back that ended in a 370 AD domination victory here. Granted, they had a much better starting position than us and an ancient UU, but there might be some useful tactics we can pick up. Particularly, given that we won't have much to build besides units and we are on a large map, it might make sense to build the pyramids while we wait for other civs to settle nearby. The extra graneries would help to get captured cities quickly up to productive size and also improve score.
     
  3. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Location:
    Ohio, U.S.A.
    Checking in.

    Just saw this post by MB in the maintenance thread:

    Just a minor oversight. :)

    Might actually be a good thing. With 15 rivals, land will be at a premium. No civs will get too large to handle early and the ai should develop a road network for us fairly quickly.

    Also he has made a number of changes to the ruleset. Be sure to read the maintenance thread for the particulars.
     
  4. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    3rd team member checking in, will have to re-read the maintenance thread when I've had some sleep.
     
  5. tao

    tao Deity

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    Team tao Maintenance Post

    last change Dec 1, 08:35 GMT

    This post will collect important tidbits appearing in various posts, e.g. in the sgotm maintenance thread, as well as findings of team members. Please pm me, if you want something added.

    Roster and playing sequence:
    tao
    Demiurge
    Furiey
    Zwingli
    (TedJackson removed after 5 weeks of inactivity)

    1. Our intial tech is alphabet instead of expansionist standard pottery.

    2. Please everybody: with only 1 city, it must be used at optimum. Do not let it riot but giv lux tax (specialist, clown only if special justification). Micromanage before and after each growth and before each unit completion.

    3. See posts #51, #53 on how to cure the crash when starting diplomacy with some civs.
     
  6. tao

    tao Deity

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    I think without long discussion, there is a consensus to go for the OCC variant.

    I load the save, take a screenshot and blow it up in Photoshop. I can't find any clue for bonus etc.

    I hit F10 and see our competition:
    Egypt, Aztecs, America, Arabs, France, Iroquois, Japan, Keltoi, England, Vikings, Zululand, China, Mongols, India, Spain

    That are a lot of civs for a 25% land map, even a huge one. On regent, this should be to our advantage, because none of them can really grow big fast.

    0: 4000: There are 3 mountains in sight, which we should climb for exploring. The question is whether to also use settler and worker, or only the scout. I decide to use the worker, but not the settler, because he only has a 33% chance of going to the "best" position.
    Scout goes SE and sees wheat, worker W sees nothing; settler rests.

    1: 3950: scout goes on wheat and sees coast with fish; nice
    worker goes on mountain and sees cattle on river; even nicer

    2: 3900: scout S sees game, S sees furs.



    I think we found our starting position: on the coast, wheat, river, forest with game, furs close, 2 bonus grassland, hill for shields, fish.
    The worker will not see anything new moving down from the mountain. Thus both he and the settler move towards our target position. The scout will look on, in case there is a much much better place.

    3: 3850: walking

    4: 3800: scout sees goody hut: I have no idea on restrictions in hut popping before settling; better delay it.

    5: 3750: walking

    6: 3700: reach settling position

    7: 3650: Moscow founded starting worker; work wheat, because growth is power and we did not yet meet any civ, which is suspicious.
    Set max research to pottery: growth is power (and we need it in case we want to go for map making.
    Vandals from the goody hut give us map; disappointing. And we learn that near the cow, there is also furs and game. ;)

    8: 3600: worker starts irrigating wheat, scout explores NNW

    9: 3500: zzz

    10: 3500: scout sees goody hut across the water, but hasn't yet learned to swim

    11: 3450: zzz

    12: 3400: irrigation done, start road

    13: 3350: on his way to the goody huts, scout sees another one. :)
    mm

    14: 3300: Alemanni tribe tells us ceremonial burial :)

    15: 3250: Moscow b warrior s temple as granary pre-build; road done, move to bg

    16: 3200: road bg

    17: 3150: cultural borders expand, work game; research to 60%

    18: 3100: learn pottery; start research on wheel (to allow chariots); switch Moscow to granary

    19: 3050: start mining

    20: 3000: scout will reach goody hut next turn; let's hope for another (expensive) tech; this was another reason to not research e.g. iron working or writing first.

    I decided on the granary, since we may need a number of workers to colonize luxuries (only 1 seen so far) and resources. And we want grow our 1 city at max. Suspiciously, we made no contact and maybe we are alone on a central small continent with all the other civs on islands around us. Since this is regent, the tech pace will not be too fast and maybe we get some more friendly tribes telling us techs.

    Once we have the granary and can time it convenient with pop growth, we may want to build another worker.

    We might want to build temple (allow pop growth), barracks (vet units), before building units.

    Firaxis score 28

    Demiurge (next)
    Furiey
    Zwingli
    TedJackson
    tao (just played; away Nov 27 - Dec 1)
     
  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Location:
    Ohio, U.S.A.
    Got it. Will play tomorrow evening U.S. EST.

    Given the fact that we are on a standard map with 15 civs and 25% landmass, I would suspect that we are indeed on an archipelago map. We should know for certain by the end of our first rotation.

    If that is the case shouldn't we be beelining for mapmaking and the great lighthouse? That and most probably long ship chains will be critical for an early conquest. We are on the coast which is a good thing since we are unlikely to get a second city for producing galleys.

    Edit/add: As far as builds, I think the barracks and a couple of archers would be in order before building a temple. The barb setting is unknown and dispelling the camps could be critical to maintaining a fast research rate. If we are on an island by ourselves, we may have a good number of barbs to deal with. Pre-building the GL might be in order as well.
     
  8. tao

    tao Deity

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    I sent a pm to coletite and he informed me, that he never signed up for this game; no time. Maybe mad-bax assigns somebody else.
     
  9. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    I have added Ted Jackson to your Roster.
     
  10. TedJackson

    TedJackson Cunning old Celt

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    Hi everyone,

    just checking in.

    Just as well I'm last on the roster as I'll have to do the modpack install for Vanilla :)


    Ted
     
  11. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Welcome to the team Ted!

    Regards the map; archipelago, or archipelago type but with stringy land bridges between the islands. Still surprised we haven't met anyone given the number of Civs. It's going to take a while to explore all the wiggles around the coast and check for land bridges, perhaps another scout to go N ish at some point, or maybe it would be quicker to check by sea.
     
  12. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Location:
    Ohio, U.S.A.
    Hi Ted, good to have you on board.

    3000 bc (pre-turn)
    Hit return

    2950 bc (turn 1)
    Scout pops hut, gets mysticism

    2900 bc (turn 2)
    Scout begins moving off peninsula

    2850 bc (turn 3)
    Moscow grows to pop 4
    Lux up to 10%, sci down to 90%. Still get wheel in 7 turns
    MM Moscow, growth in 5, granary in 6

    2800 bc (turn 4)
    Scout continues moving off peninsula

    2750 bc (turn 5)
    Worker completes mine, moves to next BG
    Moscow gets growth in 3, granary in 3
    MM to get granary in 3, growth in 4

    2710 bc (turn 6)
    Worker roads BG first to increase commerce, currently at +0 gpt

    2670 bc (turn 7)
    Scout continues moving off peninsula

    2630 bc (turn 8)
    Moscow builds granary < barracks
    Now at -1 gpt

    2590 bc (turn 9)
    Moscow grows to pop 5, MM for growth
    Lux up to 20%, wheel in 1, sci down to 70%, +0 gpt
    Worker completes road, mines BG
    Scout moves off peninsula, spies another hut N

    2550 bc (turn 10)
    Learn wheel < warrior code temporarily. Cheap tech so we don't get it from hut.
    Pop hut, get eqWorker, move toward Moscow
    Horses within city radius
    Switch research to writing at 80%, due in 22 at -1 gpt
    MM Moscow for shields, growth in 2 at +3 fpt

    Our world at 2550 bc:



    Post-turn:
    We have horses in the city radius, :bounce: once they're hooked up. I started researching writing although that could be changed if the next player wants to gamble on getting it from a hut. I started a barracks instead of a temple thinking that we would be producing a worker soon. Now that I got one from a hut, it could be switched to a temple to keep us from using the lux slider as much. Controlling happiness is cutting into our research rate currently.

    Edit: Playing order
    Furiey (up next)
    Zwingli
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge (just played)
     
  13. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Welcome to the team Ted. :)

    I'm somewhat at a loss as to any suggestions for this map. We might want galleys, but all of the coastal squares will make them slow and it is possible that we are next to an inland sea. Maybe the Collossus will be a good goal if we are stuck with one city for an extended period of time. There are plenty of candidates for land bridges visible, so a second scout could be a wize investment.

    The map seems very symmetrical, and I woudn't be surprised if we are in the middle of a pangaea connected by multiple spokes to an outer landmass.

    Note: I'll be without civ access from the 25th to the 28th inclusive.
     
  14. tao

    tao Deity

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    Just some thoughts in no specific order:
    1. I think we are on an isolated continent. Otherwise some other scout would have shown up.
    2. We don't need barracks now, since barbs will come and promote our regular units.
    3. A temple is a good idea to both increase happiness and grow culture; we may not need to waste a worker on colonizing the furs.
    4. IMHO Great Lighthouse is a necessity on this archipelago map.
    5. Since we will be isolated for a long time, the AIs will be ahead in techs. Thus Great Library would be good also.
    6. Colossus would help to increase our commerce, e.g. research and money for upgrading units.
    7. We might want to research warrior code before map making to have Heroic Epic as pre-build for Great Lighthouse. Or do we use Oracle hoping nobody will finish it?
    8. We need a 2nd unit as military police soon.
    9. I would not build a 2nd scout, because it is wasted shields and upkeep (since we are alone). Wait till we can build chariot.
    10. Chariots will also be able to disperse barb huts giving 25g each for our research spending.
    11. Do we want a 3rd worker to help improve faster and join later, once our pop growth is very slow (above pop 7)?
    12. writing is the best choice now. I was thinking to start it even before wheel, but wanted to locate horses in case they would be far away. Next either wc (see above) or map making. Then dependig on how long it takes to research and what pre-build we have either literature or hbr squeezed in.
    13. building I would temple, warrior, chariot, Colossus? or sqeeze in another worker?
    14. micro managing is key to success
    15. growth is power

    PS: Good turns, Demiurge. :thumbsup:
     
  15. TedJackson

    TedJackson Cunning old Celt

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    OK guys, I'm all set up and raring to go :)

    I've had a look at our position and have a few general comments.

    1. It's too early to decide whether or not we're isolated. There are indications that we're not but they are not visible in-game ;)

    2. I'm not convinced that there are any roaming barbs as we've uncovered a fair sized territory without encountering any.

    3. As we're playing OCCC I don't think the idea of building any Great Wonder is practical until we have at least one other city for unit production.

    4. We need at least one more Scout ASAP. Looking at the map there are unexplored areas to the North, Northeast, East and South.

    We can benefit in two ways by exploring these areas sooner rather than later: By uncovering and popping Goody Huts or by making contact with our neighbours (opening trade opportunities).

    5. Map Making is my tech of choice as it would allow us to build a harbour, increasing the Food potential of Moscow's coastal tiles.


    Ted
     
  16. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Just some general reactions to what's ben discussed.

    I'm not sure what indications you're talking about Ted, but I'm with tao on this one. I think we are isolated and on an archipelago or continents map. I find it impossible to believe that we haven't seen any other civ with only 25% landmass if we're on a pangea.

    As to wonders, I think the lighthouse is a must build, both for contacts and for accelerating our conquest. I think all our resources need to be focused toward getting galleys out and making those contacts so we can plan our invasions.
     
  17. TedJackson

    TedJackson Cunning old Celt

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    Looking at the graph on the submissions page it's possible to surmise that everybody apart from ourselves and team Tone settled on the start position. This gave them an initially steeper growth curve which fell off as the tundra started to hurt their progress while our curve started slow and has increased over time. Three of those "settle on start" teams exhibit an increase in growth around 2150BC to 1750BC which I attribute to contacts.

    I could of course be wrong but thought I'd better explain my reasoning as my ealier choice of wording was less than ideal :)

    The problem with any Wonder build is that while we only have one city we cannot build anything else until the Wonder is finished. This is a very high risk strategy in my view and there is too much unexplored territory to justify the assumption that we are isolated.



    Ted
     
  18. tao

    tao Deity

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    On barbs:
    I looked thru several of my gotm logs and it is not uncommon to not encounter them until about 2400bc.

    On TedJackson's interpretation of the submission graph:
    I can't believe many teams to be so stupid and found on the starting position. IMHO we have lower initial growth because of the granary.

    On being isolated:
    I still believe we are.

    On Wonder building:
    We can't afford to build many units, because we need our money for research (or for saving to buy techs). Thus useful Wonders are very good.

    On exploring:
    IMHO we should wait until we can build chariots and not waste time on a scout.

    But of course it is on Furiey to decide and play. ;)
     
  19. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    OK, got it - I'll play in a while once I've done all those things that need doing when you get back from work.

    Personally I have a feeling that we are connected (remember mad-bax's comment that the map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration), but I think there are things we will need in the next 10 turns before another scout. I might try and follow one of the "spokes" to see if they do connect to more land.
     
  20. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    2550 BC (Turn 0): change build to Temple due in 6, as I said, not a lot of time for much else this 10 turns; Leave research on Writing at 80%; press button.

    2510 BC (Turn 1): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow.

    2470 BC (Turn 2): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow; Moscow has grown; lux up to 30% - Writing in 22 again.

    2430 BC (Turn 3): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow.

    2390 BC (Turn 4): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow – spots another goodie hut on mountain to N of Moscow; mm Moscow for growth with Temple still in 1

    2350 BC (Turn 5): Moscow builds Temple; drop lux to 20%, now 9gold +0gpt; mm Moscow for Warrior in 1; Moscow Worker completes mine – goes for furs; Scout back for goodie hut, the “spoke” has petered out; eqWorker to Moscow.

    2310 BC (Turn 6): Moscow: Warrior -> Worker in 1 and grows in 1; drop lux to 10%; fortify Warrior in Moscow; Scout towards hut; eqworker to Moscow.

    2270 BC (Turn 7): Moscow: Worker -> Barracks (back to –1gpt again); new Worker joins Moscow Worker; eqWorker finally reaches Moscow region (it’s a long way through the tundra).

    2230 BC (Turn 8): Workers road, Scout to hut.

    2190 BC (Turn 9): Scout to hut; mm Moscow to avoid wasting shields

    IBT: Something happens for the first time – a Magyar Warrior appears from the goodie hut tile.

    2150 BC (Turn 10): Scout approaches goodie hut – clear map shows there’s a landbridge to another tile where the barb must have come from

    Treasury: 6 gold - 1 gpt, Writing in 13 (70%), Lux 10%

    Post-turn: I leave the 2 Workers SW of Moscow unmoved, they could either continue on to connect the Furs, mine and road the grassland tile by Moscow, or join the 3rd worker towards the Horses making a nice 3 Worker team. We will need to drop our tech rate as we’re running out of gold. Moscow is set to grow in 1, Barracks in 1, but it may be desirable to slow growth to allow another worker to be produced as it grows, particularly as one of our MP Warriors will need to go for the barb (they are just fortified, so are free to move this turn, perhaps one to the Worker). Still no contacts (apart from the barb)


    Zwingli (up next)
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge
    Furiey (just played)

    The Save
     

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