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SGOTM5 - Team tao

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    Thanks for looking into it. It turns out I was missing the unaltered spain.flc file.
     
  2. tao

    tao Deity

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    I did not finish yesterday evening and neither during today's lunch break. But here is the report now:

    0: 250AD: stop forest planting; switch taxman in Tours to scientist; set 0% science; wake the 2 sleeping French workers and send them roading the forest

    IBT Tours pop shrinks to 4

    1:260AD: 4 AIs learn theology, but not tech trades possible
    load 4 horsemen in galleys; move galleys; workers(3) start roading Tours forest, 3+1 planting Moscow forest
    make 68g from map trades; mm Tours creating scientist; spend 232g hurrying temple in Tours
    our alliances with Aztecs, Mongols, Spain vs. France end this turn - let alliances expire

    IBT Mongols and France sign peace

    2:270AD: Moscow b horse s next; Tours b temple s harbor; mm Tours (scientist)
    ship-chain 2 elite horsemen to Tours; load 2 more horses in galley; move galleys; mm Tours now at stable pop 3: 2 busy, 1 scientist
    still no tech trade for theology possible

    IBT Mongols want engineering; because it is well known and the Mongols have a powerful UU, we agree
    China and England sign peace

    3: 280AD: AIs (including France) know chivalry; it will get dirty

    IBT France drops reg sword N of Ciudad de la Luna

    4: 290AD: Moscow b horse s pike; move workers to plant another 3g forest and road mountain N of Moscow; ship-chain 2 more horses to Tours; load 2 more horses in galley, move galleys
    now or never: we send 7 axemen, 3 horses from Tours towards Paris; mm Tours (clown) and Moscow (scientist)

    5: 300AD: ship-chain 2 more horses to Tours
    axeman moves towards Paris and spots 2 French colleagues approaching: bad
    5/5 horse attacks and withdraws
    5/4 horse kills 3/3 axe -> 1/5
    4/4 horse attacks 3/3 axe and dies ; axe -> 2/3
    troops move towards Paris

    IBT 2/3 axe kills our 4/4 axe

    6: 310AD: Moscow b pike s axe
    Tours' culture expands and Tours horse can reach Paris; we make a desperate attack on Paris:
    4/4 axe kills 3/3 pike dies -> 3/4
    4/4 axe vs 3/3 pike dies -> pike 2/3
    4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> 3/4
    4/4 axe vs 3/3 spear dies -> spear 1/3
    4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> axe 2/4
    4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> axe 1/4
    4/4 horse kills 2/4 pike -> 1/4
    4/4 horse kills 1/3 spear -> 2/4 and
    we capture Paris with The Pyramids:band: :banana:[dance] with all of pop 9 resisting; start temple
    ship-chain 2 horses to Paris
    4/4 horse kills 1/3 axe -> 2/4 and back to Paris
    move 1/5 horse to Tours
    mm Moscow, Tours; move galleys
    And the big question is: do we make peace before French knights arrive? Now? Joan is not willing to give either chivalry or theology, thus we wait and hope.

    IBT French want audience and we deny; stupid French worker moves to Paris border; Paris riots, 7 of 9 resistors

    7: 320AD: 2/4 horse captures French worker; colleague pillages road NE-NE of Paris to break connection between the new French capital Orleans and their horses; galleys sail; move 2/3 galley to Paris for healing
    mm Moscow

    8: 330AD: Moscow b axe s next with mm; pillage French wines

    IBT Zulu offer wm for wm, 8g: no; France and Aztecs sign peace

    9: 340AD: move units; Moscow still riots down to 2/9 resistors

    IBT Aztecs and England sign peace; Joan sends 2 axemen, 1 sword

    10: 350AD: Paris stops rioting; Moscow w axeman s horse with mm
    send galley with horse, axe to raze Besancon to soften Joan; galley sees French galley - the counterstrike; pillage French horses 3NE of Paris; switch elite horse to Moscow, vet horse to Tours
    with 2 military police, Tours now has 3spt; switch Moscow citizens to specialists (1 scientist, 7 taxmen); hurry temple for 236 g

    Firaxis 128, Jason 84

    Ideas on how to continue:
    I would suggest to wait for the French to approach Moscow before attacking them
    I set-up a galley to ship-chain horse and axe to mountain at Besancon; let's hope to get tech for peace from Joan after we raze it and push back her counter-strikes
    I am afraid of knights appearing; we should build some more horses for upgrade; once we have peace, a market in Moscow would be a good idea (5 turns)
    China and Spain still lack engineering, I hope for a tech swap deal also.

    Mine Paris plains for shields.

    IMHO Paris is better located to hold our Forbidden Palace than Tours - in the longer run (despite of its higher corruption). Or am I wrong?

    If we find a lot of cash, we might want to hurry a courthouse in Paris.


    Demiurge (next)
    Furiey
    Zwingli
    TedJackson
    tao (just played)
     
  3. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    No time to look at the save tonight but we got Paris - excellent! [dance]

    I agree about Forbidden Palace in Paris rather than Tours (not had chance too see what the corruption is like yet though), it will be a better location once it is built.
     
  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Given the fact that we are no longer pre-building the FP, I would think you're right. I'll start a pre-build again once the temple completes as I don't think we'll have the cash to rush a courthouse first.

    As far as peace with France, I'll plan on razing Besancon and we'll see what they offer. Part of me wants to take another couple cities from the French core (Orleans and Lyons for the wines and choke points) before musketeers and peace if possible. But that might not be feasable if knights start appearing. I'll just have to get a feel for how many and the type of troops Joan is throwing at us. I'm thinking of trying to chain over 4 more horses ASAP to push the attack forward near the end of my turns or at the beginning of the next set if knights don't appear first.

    As to what we'll accept for peace, clearly we don't want Besancon or Cherbourg for corruption reasons, but what will we accept. Theology or chivalry? Since we want to build more horses for upgrade, should we plan to continue minimum research for the next 20 turns and trade theology around — if and when she gives it to us — for MAs where we can? We also don't have a barracks on the French continent yet for upgrading.

    Oh and got it. Will play tomorrow since I'm leaving town for the weekend on Saturday.
     
  5. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    Taking Paris plus another city was more than I expected :)

    Looking at the corruption in Paris, we would lose 5 out of 7 shields if working available tiles, so a courthouse is really necessary to get the FP done in a reasonable time there. Unless we capture/raze some of the neigboring cities, the temple will only gain us 3 tiles against French culture, so I suggest switching to courthouse on turn 0 and rushing. In the event that Paris flips, we have a chance of capturing the courthouse back intact whereas a temple would just disappear. Also, the recovered shields would contribute toward building the temple afterward.
     
  6. tao

    tao Deity

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    IMHO a temple before the courthouse is better to expand our culture asap (increase difficulty for knights reaching us, "permanently" claim territory N of Paris between the 2 parts of France, more happiness for more productive citizens, more score).

    We need mines for Paris to increase production. We want to bring irrigation to Tours.

    We should (hopefully) fight France until we get both chivalry and theology, unless we face overwhelming forces.

    Raze the island towns, don't conquer them; they are weak and would only increase corruption in Paris and Tours.

    Regrettably I doubt that we have the power to capture another French continental town before we have to make peace.

    Once we are at peace, a market would be good to increase Moscow's income by 50%.

    Whom to attack next? Arabs, because they are close? Japan, because they are relatively weak and have no resources?
     
  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    On turn 3 I got our first GL and with the rule changes I'd thought I'd take a break to see what we should do with him. Under the new rules, we cannot use him to rush any wonders, but we can disband him for 250 shields. Unfortunately we need 10 (?) cities on this map to even be able to build the FP so we can't disband him toward that yet. Do we:

    1. Hold onto him for when we can build the FP. May be awhile and we could get another one by then.
    2. Go ahead and build an army of horses or axemen. I hate to tie up the minimal number of troops we have for an army though unless its for defense.
    3. Disband him toward the Heroic Epic (wasting 56 shields currently) in Paris for the culture? I switched the temple to a courthouse and will be able to rush the temple in a turn or two.
     
  8. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Hmm I see why you stopped - but can we even disband him towards the Forbidden Palace? Normally you can only hurry that with a leader... Maintenance thread just says:

    2. Leaders cannot hurry great wonders or small wonders. They may however be disbanded for 250 shields.

    which only leaves an army or another improvement.
     
  9. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Good question Furiey. I'm really not sure. I read the rule changes to mean that we can disband him for 250 shields toward whatever we'd like but I'm not certain.

    Edit: Cross-posted with Furiey. Since we technically aren't hurrying a wonder I still think we could disband him toward a wonder build. At least thats the way I read it.
     
  10. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Normally if you disband when building a Wonder though the shields are lost, and 250 would be a lot to lose that way. I don't know much about modding, can that be changed? if so has it been changed?
     
  11. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Ah, I see your point now. You just might be right. I'm going to read through the maintenance post a little more thoroughly to see if this has come up yet.

    According to a post about it in the maintenance thread you are right. Good catch. Well that takes that decision off the table. Looks like its an army or another improvement.
     
  12. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    When asked if leaders can be disbanded towards a palace, this was the reply:

    No. A palace is a wonder. IF a forest chop wouldn't go towards it then a disbanded unit won't either.

    so that would suggest no to either the FP or Heroic Epic as well :(
     
  13. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    So our choices now are an army, a colosseum (the most expensive culture build available at the moment) or a market, useful later but not immediately.
     
  14. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Not fantastic choices I agree.

    But I we don't have the units to spare for an army, (8 horseman, 1 pike and 6 Axemen in the slightly older save I'm looking at)
    and
    Moscow can build a Market in 6
    but
    We do need Culture in Paris and were even discussing rushing the Temple, so maybe a Coliseum is the way to go. A Cathedral is the most expensive improvement currently available and we would need a Temple for that first. We're going to be wasting a lot of shields - whatever we use it for - pity they don't carry over to the next item in the queue.
     
  15. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    350 ad (pre-turn)
    Decide to rush courthouse first in Paris, hit return

    IBT: French troops move next to Paris

    360 ad (turn 1)
    Paris builds courthouse < temple
    MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
    Workers near Paris complete road, mine
    Defeat 3 French troops with axemen promoting one to elite, no losses
    Shipchain axeman and horse to mountain near Besancon
    Workers near Moscow road
    Sell WM around for some gold

    IBT: Keltoi and Iroquois sign peace treaty, one French axeman approaches Paris.

    370 ad (turn 2)
    Moscow builds horse < next
    Axeman and horse kill two spears in Besancon, capture one worker load on ship, 2 gold, autoraze it
    MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
    Fortify troops in Paris
    France will give theology or chivalry and 55 gold and WM for peace, don't do it yet

    IBT: American warrior dropped off near Tours, three more french troops move toward Paris

    380 ad (turn 3)
    MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
    Attack axeman near Paris with horses given the proximity of more french troops, 2 redline and retreat, elite horse kills him returning to the safety of Paris
    Elite horse kills American warrior near Tours producing GL Ivan the Terrible
    Pop hut on island to east, get eqWorker, load into boat. Move boat with 2 workers toward ship chain.
    Fortify troops on Besancon island to heal.
    Move Ivan to Paris and disband him toward colosseum

    IBT: 3 French axeman and the first french knight appear next to Paris

    390 ad (turn 4)
    Moscow builds horse < next
    Paris builds colosseum < heroic epic as FP pre-build
    MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
    Since the first knight appeared, and the majority of our troops in Paris are already licking their wounds, decide to talk to Joan. She will pay theology or chivalry, 67 gold and WM for peace. Look through civs and China is down chivalry and engineering on us and up theology.
    Accept peace from the French for chivalry, 67 gold and WM.
    See what China will take for theology. Engineering and chivalry. Tell Mao to throw in 3 gold, all he has and the deal is done.
    Move galleys to set up a ship chain to send another axeman and horse to island to east. The Iroquois have a city there and we are at war with them.
    Set research to invention, with a scientist in Paris
    Change Moscow to market

    400 ad (turn 5)
    MM Paris for 1 scientist, 1 taxmen
    Ship chain two workers from Besancon island to Tours
    Ship chain an axeman and a horse to Besancon island
    Rush a harbor in Tours

    IBT: Aztecs and Iroquois have signed an MA against us.

    410 ad (turn 6)
    Tours builds harbor < barracks
    Kyoto (Japanese) completes Sun Tzu's
    Paris starved to pop 1
    With the loss of the scientist in Paris we are no longer researching. Setting sci at 10% only leaves us with 1 gpt. Decide to leave it off.
    Move troops near Akwesane (Iroquois city on island to east), flush out and kill one Iroquois warrior on the way.

    420 ad (turn 7)
    Paris culture expands
    Troops advance on Akewasne

    430 ad (turn 8)
    Troops advance on Akewasne

    440 ad (turn 9)
    Moscow builds market < library, MM for production in 2
    Attack Akewasne, losing one horse and killing a spear and a pike. Autoraze and capture a worker
    Invention is now known by a few civs, but we can't afford it.

    450 ad (turn 10)
    Horse defeats barb to the west of Moscow, goes to mountain to heal

    Post-turn:
    We are low on cash for either upgrades or a tech trade at the moment. We are up some techs on a couple civs and down invention on a few. Once Moscow builds the library, we need two more units for MP. We can then turn down the lux slider.

    Currently India is making me the most nervous. They went from cautious to annoyed in my turns and we are average against them militarily. They now have war elephants although I have yet to see any on our continent. That also means they will start their GA soon. It might be good to get another MA with them against someone on their continent. Currently they will sign one against America but it is costly.

    Furiey (next)
    Zwingli
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge (just played)
     
  16. tao

    tao Deity

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    I'm very sorry I missed the discussion on Leader usage. I would never ever have used the Leader for a colosseum, but for an army, to be filled with knights.

    I would not build the library in Moscow. We currently have to up science to 50% to reduce invention from 37 to 35 turns. A library won't help us. IMHO we will NOT research but follow the war and extortion principle. Knights instead of science! Whether Moscow's culture expands in 550 or 450 turns doesn't make a big difference in my opinion. Switch to knight (plus mm scientist).

    We could ally with India and afterwards hit them hard on our continent. If we conquer about 3 cities, they will agree to peace before they have shipped enforcements for counter-attack.

    Japan with Sun Tzu's still looks like a good target.
     
  17. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    OK, Got it (I'll play tomorrow).

    Out of interest, this is our position relative to the other Civs

    Code:
    We are:    Strong           Average           Weak
        to:     Egypt            Arabs             America
                Aztecs           Iroquois          France
                Japan            India             Zulu
                Keltoi
                England
                Vikings
                China
                Mongols
                Spain
    
    For Japan:      We're Stronger
                    Kyoto has Sun Tzu, Oracle and Great Wall
                    they also have 2 cities by Moscow (one only size 1)
    against Japan:  We are allied with them against Iroquois 
                    (it can now be broken if we wish)
                    They're between Iroqouois and Astecs whom we're at War with
                    They have Samurai
    For an Alliance against America, India wants our WM, 131g and 16gpt - that is costly
     
  18. tao

    tao Deity

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    Too costly, IMHO.

    I looked at the save an Japan has no iron. Thus they should not have samurai.

    I suppose we strengthen our troops for the next turns, upgrade some horses.

    And defend against approaching Aztecs. Let's hope for another Leader.

    And hope for other civs to populate our island (and the silks place) for convenient capture.

    Should we sign a ROP with Japan now to give our troops potential access to the Iroquois settlement of Oka? IMHO a good idea; we will not be ready to attack Japan before the 20 turns are over. And Iroquois will probably agree to peace, after we razed Oka.
     
  19. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Ah yes - Oka, now my monitor has flicked back to the correct colours again (it keeps going yellow - I must get a new one!) I can see that that is now Iroquois, not Japanese. I've checked and the Japanese are not currently trading for Iron - their source is by Nagoya near Moscow, so no Samurai yet. It also looks like they've lost cities in their homelands and are down to 3 main cities with Edo and Nara cut off from their core.
     
  20. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Bad News

    Turn 8 and Paris has just flipped. We have 6 turns left of our Peace Treaty.
     

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